Atoning For The Past

Always worth a read, Calvin Smith's opinion piece in yesterday's Royal Gazette raises some interesting questions.

"The onus is on White Bermudians to make a greater effort in assisting the PLP government in guiding Bermuda to a place where race ceases to be a factor in the achievement of national political and economic goals.

If white Bermudians do not join in this worthy effort very quickly, the blacks who run the political process may make the unfortunate discovery that racism is nice as long as your race is in charge."

Unfortunately Mr. Smith didn't go into any detail about how he thinks white Bermudians might do this. As a recent letter to the Editor of the Royal Gazette observed, there's much talk about whites needing to atone for the past before the spectre of racism can finally be laid to rest but no-one seems particularly clear on what kind of atonement is required.

So how can white people help take race out of politics? Join the PLP perhaps? That would be great, but it ain't going to happen until the PLP make an effort to encourage that. Most white Bermudians seem to believe the PLP are uninterested in the backing of any part of the white community because they know they can get re-elected solely with the support of blacks.

Hopefully Mr. Smith will go into more detail in his column next week.

Comments

[Calvin on 20.05.04 at 09:25]

On Thursday's I'm a pessimist, so......

I don't think it'll ever happen, well not anytime soon. I read a great economics book last summer that explained that fledgling economies respond to incentives. Nothing else works apparently. The track record shows that foreign investment in infrastructure and human capital hasn't worked; population controls hasn't worked; and clearly debt forgiveness hasn't worked. But incentives do work...

"The rich are different from the poor: they have more money...Prosperity happens when all the players in the development game have the right incentives...It happens when politics is not polarized between antagonistic interest groups, but there is a common consensus to invest in the future."
--The Elusive Quest for Growth: Economists' Adventures and Misadventures in the Tropics (p289) - William Easterly

Reframe these statements into the development of race relations in Bermuda. The black community has incentives -- we want some of the "good" life. And, it seems to me that the black community has nothing to offer the white community.

"If you build it, they will come." --- What do we build?

Phil and everyone out there, this isn't a matter of atoning for sins of the past. Most blacks aren't seeking reparations, because we understand that what's good for Bermuda as a whole is good for the black community. Only short-sightedness leads me in the other direction.

Oh yeah...Go Flames!

[BDA JOE on 20.05.04 at 22:08]

I read yesterday with considerable dismay, the RG OP-ED by Clavin Smith. Granted, I have only read the online version (I'm not sure if they abridge it or change the title) but that was more than enough for me to get the point.

'It’s up to whites to save us'. I think the headline on this ridiculous editorial really sets the tone for further laughable statements.

"I agree with Mr. Zuill that the independence debate is befuddled by racial distrust."

The independence debate is not beffudled by racist distrust, it is the result of racial distrust. A distrust perpetuated and encouraged largely by the PLP. A distrust mostly, contrary to Mr. Smith's claim, of whites by blacks. Is it not overwhelmingly obvious that the independence debate is in fact an argument on racism and the position of the races in Bermuda? I think so...

" understand racism as the situation when one race is antagonistic towards another race"

A very crude simple minded interpretation of the term I must say. To a proper and rather more complex definition of the term, I'll refer you to politics.bm. However, one thing I will mention on this sentence is what I believe to be a very sly insinuation. To me anyway, Mr. Smith is suggesting that racism can exist only in one direction at any one time. Given his political beliefs and statements he's made in the past, I think it's not hard to guess which way he thinks it's going.

"Until November 8, 1998, the government of Bermuda was dominated by white Bermudians."

While technically true, it is misleading in the point it's trying to make. The idea that on that day in November power shifted from white hands to black is of the utmost naivety. Mr. Smith implies that the UBP had the same racial monopoly that the PLP now has (whether or not he will admit it). He is implying that a government with a slightly white majority is inferior to a completely black one. This in my opinion is a core philosophy that keeps racism around in Bermuda.

"Historically, this dominance of Bermuda both economically and politically by white Bermudians has been perpetuated with the unstinting support of England."

I'd like to ask Mr. Smith, which Parliament was it that passed a law to abolish slavery in the British empire (including Bermuda)? Who ensured that a provision in the constitution mandated equal rights for all Bermudians?I'd be fascinated to know what he is basing these claims on. Just because that might be the social paradigm there, does not mean that they would inflict that on their colonies.

"Complete control of the political process was achieved by black Bermudians as a result of the 1998 election."

This is the hypocrisy and double of the PLP and it's supporters that bothers me the most. It is OK for the government to be completely black, meaning no whites allowed. Yet, in the same essay a PLP member criticizes the UBP for having a few more white members than black. Why is it that the PLP feels that the black race is entitled to complete power in Bermuda? How come any government with whites in it is deemed to be corrupt and morally inferior? It's hypocrisy in every sense of the word. In fact, this hypocysy demonstrates the PLP's complete lack of desire for racial equality.

"The evolution of Bermuda towards a democracy has been a process whereby Bermuda’s former slaves have fought to remove entrenched racist policies in order to gain equal access to the economy."

To define Bermuda's progress to democracy as purely a struggle by blacks to obtain equal status is ignorant. A Democracy is not simply a society without racism. A Democracy needs universal suffrage and equal representation. The uneven constituencies, the denial of women's rights to vote, the plus vote and for a long time the provision that didn't allow people without property to vote were all obstacles of our democracy, and none had to do with race.

"It is also true that many of the black civil servants in the Ministry of Finance are eminently more qualified to carry out their duties than their white predecessors."

Like those accountants that were caught transferring government money into 'private accounts'?

"I believe this fear is groundless based on the PLP’s performance during its short term of office. For instance, the PLP has enacted the Hotel Concessions Act which has benefited major white owned hotels both Bermudian and Foreign; the PLP has appointed white males as head of the civil service, chairman of the Hospital Board, and Deputy Head of the Board of Education."

First of all, that fear is completely not groundless. This is not an unreasonable concern, given the very racist statements made in the past by PLP leaders. Sighting the Hotel Concessions act is not reasonable grounds to disprove this 'illogical' fear. That legislation was put in place to help the ailing tourism industry. A purely political move, designed only to help prevent the collapse of the island's secondary economic pillar.

Wow, three white appointees. I'm amazed. Guess that off-sets all the racist comments, the pro actvie contract and the likely removal of the BCC contract doesn't it? Sure makes the UBP's black candidates look like window dressing doesn't it?

"In fact it has been initiatives such as these that have led many PLP members to believe that the PLP are acting like UBP ‘wannabes’. I believe that the examples I have given support my argument that as a government, the PLP has demonstrated very evenly balanced political and economic management of Bermuda."

There, that right there is the most disgusting paragraph of this whole thing. There is not a single word in that paragraph that supports his argument. By deeming any action that gives a white person a position of power or making any decision that might seem to benefit the white man as something that the UBP would do, he is proving the PLP's bigotry. So in his words, in the eyes of most PLP supporters, the UBP is 'white' and the PLP is 'black' in other words, the good party. As for his second point, pointing to a few handful white appointments (most where there wasn't any decent black man to fill the job, or when it was overwhelmingly clear that the white person was the best person for the job) does not prove to anyone that the PLP is 'evenly balanced'.

How about all the things he didn't mention such as the racial slurs, the obviously anti-white policies and most of all the lack of any white face on their side of the House. Come on, if you honestly think that the PLP are more balanced and better equipped to serve the interests of all Bermudians, you've got your head up I don't want to know where.

"I conclude, therefore, if Bermuda is to survive as a successful economic entity, the onus is on White Bermudians to make a greater effort in assisting the PLP government in guiding Bermuda to a place where race ceases to be a factor in the achievement of national political and economic goals."

Why would I, a white person, join a organization that is doesn't like me before they even know I exist? Why wouldn't I join the party that represents people of my color and my black friends at the same time? The onus isn't on me to help the PLP, the onus is on the thousands of people that thought they would make a good government to get their head out of the sand!

"If white Bermudians do not join in this worthy effort very quickly, the blacks who run the political process may make the unfortunate discovery that racism is nice as long as your race is in charge"

I refuse to read this any more of this man's work, and I will also call on the RG to stop publishing his editorials until he stops making these ridiculous claims and self manufactured opinions that have no basis in truth. Why does he keep assuming that the PLP is the only party of the future and that a vote for the UBP is an insult on my intelligence? If I don't like my government, I'm not going to support them. I will vote for the better alternative, one that ensures equal representation for all. Simple as that.

And with that friends, I bid you good night.

[Calvin on 20.05.04 at 23:21]

"To define Bermuda's progress to democracy as purely a struggle by blacks to obtain equal status is ignorant. A Democracy is not simply a society without racism. A Democracy needs universal suffrage and equal representation. The uneven constituencies, the denial of women's rights to vote, the plus vote and for a long time the provision that didn't allow people without property to vote were all obstacles of our democracy, and none had to do with race."

You've gotta be kidding me. White males have owned Bermuda since the 16th century and still do. Through racism and sexism they kept control then, but through struggle and enlightenment blacks and women have gained access to fair equal representation. I'll leave it as an exercise to BDA Joe to come up with a convincing basis for the "no-property-ism". The paragraph really does our history an injustice.

"Mr. Smith implies that the UBP had the same racial monopoly that the PLP now has (whether or not he will admit it)."

Pfffffttt...

"Why would I, a white person, join a organization that is doesn't like me before they even know I exist?"

I'll keep this short and simple. Blacks and women have fought for acceptance to organizations for hundreds of years and the struggle continues today. If you won't pick up the torch and fight for access to and representation by the only political party in Bermuda that has any semblance of labour party, then who will...

[loki on 21.05.04 at 06:39]

Whilst I agree with most of what you have stated, Calvin, re: the last paragraph of your post, I can only say, why should or would whites support a party that continually makes ignorant and racist statements regarding whites and seemingly cares not one jot whether whites vote for it or not? If the PLP does want the white vote, they will need to demonstrate that they are a party that has something to offer all of the community, not just the black community.

[Tiger Bay on 21.05.04 at 08:47]

Government is about leadership and representation for our entire community. Not about retribution. We need to learn from the mistakes of the past rather than wallow in them.

I went to a speech on Wednesday night by Dr. Leon Bass, sponsored by the Jewish Community of Bermuda, entitled “Racism, Anti-Semitism and the Holocaust”. Dr. Bass was a young soldier in the segregated US army and one of the first Americans to arrive at the Buchenwald concentration camp. He also described his experiences during the civil rights era and serving as a principal in inner city schools.

His speech dealt with the anger that he felt as a soldier fighting for his country ... that in turn treated him like he wasn't good enough. He spoke about how he saw that racial animosity, hatred, and evil taken to the extreme in the fallout of Nazism.

He described the need to learn how to love, to benefit from exposure to other cultures and values -- and the need not to sink into the odiousness of racism. The need to overcome the unfairness of the past as stronger individuals and a stronger people. The value of community.

Dr. Bass spoke at Cedarbridge earlier in the week and will be at Whitney today (let's hope that the maximum students can get there despite the union action). I wish that his message could be heard by every Bermudian.

One thing that was interesting: Dr. Bass must be over 80 years old. Yet he spoke and moved with the energy of someone less than half his age. I think this must be related to his sense of mission and personal ability to slice through a history of racial intolerance.

I also would recommend the Anne Frank display that is currently on at City Hall.

[Calvin on 21.05.04 at 16:54]

Loki,

Don't get me wrong, last summer's PLP campaign was racist and there really isn't an excuse for the way they conducted themselves. This point has been discussed many times before and I assure you that many black Bermudians now have "buyer's guilt" regarding as much. I'm not suggesting that we forget about it because the wounds are fresh, but this is where we are as Bermudians and we need to move forward and make sure this doesn't happen in the next election.

My main point in my last post is that I truly think the "they don't like me" excuse is a cop out. Absolutely no progress will be made unless someone makes a move, and I have to say, I think the proverbial ball is in "your" proverbial court. Before you break out the crucifix let me explain...and please forgive any forgivable generalizations, this is procrastination time I'm using...

"If the PLP does want the white vote, they will need to demonstrate that they are a party that has something to offer all of the community, not just the black community."

Almost every argument by "your" side revolves around blaming the method by which the PLP ran its last campaign, which we agree is warranted. Hell, even current actions might be pissing you off. But, the last election proved that the PLP didn't want the white vote and they still won. From my perspective that leaves white voters with two options:

(a) pool your resources in the UBP and hope for the best; or
(b) change the PLP from within

Of course there are others but these come to mind right now. Well, clearly (a) didn't work. And yet everyone here argues that we should strengthen the UBPs position. Well, that used to work, but I'm convinced the PLP will continue to get enough votes to stay in power. Things have changed and, just maybe, a change in tactics is necessary.

Both the UBP and PLP are broken political parties. Instead of wallowing in self pity we should make strides to fix them. And when Bermudians start choosing which one they are going to help fix based on something more than race, then we'll make some progress.

Go Flyers!!

[Calvin on 21.05.04 at 17:27]

Just one more point then I'll shut up...

Blacks played an important part of integrating the UBP so why should the integration of the PLP be any different.

[BDA JOE on 21.05.04 at 22:09]

Calvin, what you are failing to realize is that the racism of the PLP is not the fault of white people. We have done nothing (in the last 20 years or so) hostile enough to give the PLP a case to be openly hostile to the race in general. Therefore, when it is not our fault that the institution doesn't particularly like us in general, let alone care for us to join their ranks, why should the onus be on us to make an effort to change the party? I will only take that point seriously when someone can give me an intelligent answer as to why the PLP have maintained their racist ideology.

Besides what might have happened in the 50's and 60's, and the horrible racial context in which both parties were set up, why does the PLP to this day make no effort to hide their hostility to whites in general?

"My main point in my last post is that I truly think the "they don't like me" excuse is a cop out."

No way, Calvin. How can that be a cop-out? It would only be a cop-out if we said used that as an excuse not to vote at all. It would only be a cop-out if we ignored the fact that a decent alternative does exist. If the PLP's racism exists because they truly believe that whites have not changed a bit since the 50's, than there is truly no hope. There has been ample evidence in our community to show anybody who is willing to look, that the vast majority of whites are genuinely sorry for what happened. You can lead it to water but you just can't make it drink.

I, as a white person, do not want to bring shame upon my race for trying to cure incurable racists. Because, we all know that is a lost cause. That's the definition of bigots, people who maintain preconceived ideas despite evidence to the contrary.

"think the proverbial ball is in "your" proverbial court"

To do what? Change the PLP? That is not going to because of anything any white person could ever do, Calvin. Indeed, I think the onus is on the majority of the black population who voted for the PLP, to realize that their patronizing pro-black stance really isn't getting the country anywhere. That my friend, will have to happen from 'your' side, not 'mine'.

"Almost every argument by "your" side revolves around blaming the method by which the PLP ran its last campaign"

Not true. I think that statement demonstrates your complete lack of understanding for the white position. If this view point is prevalent amongst all black Bermudians, change will not come soon. No, whites were not shocked and surprised with the racial slurs last summer. It was simply a continuation of a trend that has been continuing for many years. I think it was just that those comments proved the theory of most whites beyond any doubt.

"last election proved that the PLP didn't want the white vote and they still won."

That is just further proof why the majority black population that elected them should realize that state-endorsed racism is not good for the country. Just another reason why the onus is not on 'us'...

"Blacks played an important part of integrating the UBP so why should the integration of the PLP be any different."

Maybe because as early as the late 60's the UBP was openly accepting people from the other side. It's easy as a race to join 'the other team' so to speak, when the other team isn't openly racist towards you. Whites, however much they might want to, cannot change the PLP until the party allows gives them a key. Sadly, that doesn't appear likely to happen very soon.

I conclude therefore, that it is the responsibility of blacks to make the first move to correct the situation. I say that because, whatever you might think, whites simply aren't in the position to start this process. If you believe that you can present an argument to the contrary, I'd be glad to hear it.

[Calvin on 22.05.04 at 00:34]

BDA Joe,

Could you do me a favour and explain to me why you maintain this *false* belief that integration came easily to blacks? That racism on the part of whites/UBP was legislated into history but dragged on by the PLP? Accountability isn't one of your strong points is it?

Again, I think you do the historical record a disservice and I'm losing interest in talking to you for just this reason. Further, you go on to make wild claims about my "complete lack of understanding for the white position." Just as an aside and for the record, for the past 7 years I've been in school at schools with greater than 80-90% white attendance. *Most* of my friends, in school and at home, are indeed white and they put up much stronger arguments after a 12-pack of Keith's than you have ever brought to the table. And they manage to do so while encumbered by accountability for their statements.

BTW, I think you do The Limey a disservice too. I'm not in any way suggesting your opinion or voice shouldn't be heard, but contribute something more substantial than rhetoric once in a while. Y'know, think outside the box. But, I don't speak for him so feel free to ignore me...

[BDA JOE on 22.05.04 at 11:50]

Calvin, I don't think integration came easy for blacks. It was hard at just about every level. However, even you must admit that it was easier for blacks to join the UBP in 1970, than it is for whites to join the PLP at the current time? Will you admit this Calvin? I am by no means saying integration was easy. However, integration cannot happen through only one side. Whites cannot join the PLP because they are not welcome, it just won't happen. That's all I was trying to argue, because I really disagree your claims that it is our responsibility to do this.

I'm not doing history a disservice at all. I'm simply using the integration of the UBP in the late 60's, early 70's to contrast any white integration of the PLP, which you claim will be easy. It takes two to tango. The UBP would never have been integrated had the white members not wanted more blacks, and the same will be true for the PLP.

Do you actually read what I say before rushing to respond? I used one example of integration in Bermuda to show how the process can be easy. To show how the ideal integration works, with both sides reaching a common goal.

"racism on the part of whites/UBP was legislated into history but dragged on by the PLP?"

This sentence doesn't really make sense. Well, yes there was at one point amongst some of the original UBP members probably a slight racist, anti integration sentiment. However, I don't thing the same could be argued now. On the other hand, you don't even need to argue this for the PLP, they've proven it themselves many times before.

""complete lack of understanding for the white position."

If you're going to make claims like 'The white argument is based on the PLP campaign last summer', you really don't get it. You might know lots of white people, but to say that racism on the part of the PLP just suddenly appeared last year, demonstrates (in my opinion) a lack of understanding on where white people are coming from when they say that the PLP is racist.

OK Calvin. Instead of making these vague criticisms and useless generalizations of my posts being 'rhetoric', how about you do the following:

a) Read my post entirely, and break it down point by point, much as I have done for yours. Tell me what you thing is rhetoric, and what isn't. Show me what you disagree with. Instead of using the old straw-man, at least attempt to validate your opinions. Frankly, you aren't doing any of this right now.

b)Please tell me why you continue to claim that changing the PLP is the responsibility of whites. Do you feel that your argument is insured because a long time party member said the same? Stop ignoring my argument against this, and respond.

To me, the fact that you keep ignoring most of my argument implies that you can't defend your argument. I'm perfectly willing to debate you, but you need to bring to the table the same type of rebuttals that I have brought in response to your posts.

[The Limey on 22.05.04 at 12:00]

BDA Joe (and others)

While the PLP's actions at the last election can't be ignored, for the sake of argument, let's set them aside for the time being. What other words or deeds have come from the PLP since last summer that are anti-white?

One example that springs to mind is Derrick Burgess' comment about "our people" during the argument about the cement plant.

What other examples have there been?

[BDA JOE on 22.05.04 at 12:30]

You have to remember Phil, that it doesn't happen very often. They do it just enough to remind the party faithful of what the party stands for, and just enough so everyone knows that it isn't about to change soon.

You mentioned the 'our people' comment, that's probably one of two since the last election. I would identify the other as being the appointment of Richard Ground as CJ. Despite what might have been said, I think race played much more of a role in this one than who's a foreigner and who isn't.

[BDA JOE on 22.05.04 at 12:31]

You have to remember Phil, that it doesn't happen very often. They do it just enough to remind the party faithful of what the party stands for, and just enough so everyone knows that it isn't about to change soon.

You mentioned the 'our people' comment, that's probably one of two since the last election. I would identify the other as being the appointment of Richard Ground as CJ. Despite what might have been said, I think race played much more of a role in this one than who's a foreigner and who isn't.

[Calvin on 22.05.04 at 12:40]

BDA Joe,

Responding point for point, tit for tat is useless and I refuse to address every non-sensical thing you say. You enjoy filibustering too much.

Your argument as a whole is that the UBP is this great altruistic organization that welcomed blacks en masse while the PLP members have been standing at the gates, armed to the hilt, shooting at anything that doesn't "look like me". I think that argument is being too easy on "your" side.

My argument is that blacks fought hard to gain entrance and whites have *never* tried to integrate a traditionally black institution and thats the real reason why the PLP is still a black institution and not a true labour party. My "proof" of this is that Saltus and Warwick Academy are integrated somewhat and Berkeley is not at all. There have never been any laws barring white entrance to a black institution, but the opposite is not true. I think this is glaringly obvious evidence that we have made the push towards integration and have not been met half way. Yes, it does take two to tango, show me that "you've" tried. If the relationship between whites and blacks is to mature, whites must be willing to play on our field just as we have shown willingness to play on yours.

That was the whole point of my first post in this thread. Read (or re-read) the quote and think about it for a second.

Oh, BTW, I've been of this opinion for way too long, way before I started posting here, for you to assume its me believing I'm propped up by anyone else.

Go Flyers!!

[BDA JOE on 22.05.04 at 13:17]

"Your argument as a whole is that the UBP is this great altruistic organization that welcomed blacks en masse"

Well, whether or not it's altruistic depends on one's opinion I suppose. However, I don't think you can deny that as early as the late 60's theUBP had welcomed blacks into the organization, and even had a black leader within a few years. The opposite simply cannot be said about the PLP. Plain and simple.

"while the PLP members have been standing at the gates, armed to the hilt, shooting at anything that doesn't look like me"

Are you in a position to dispute that statement? While you might have used stronger words than I would to exaggerate my argument (good debating technique, must say), the idea of this sentence is quite true. While the PLP has welcomed a handful of whites, most of whom were sympathetic to the actual idea of a labor party instead of a 'black party', the UBP has welcomed many times more blacks.

" I think that argument is being too easy on "your" side."

When you say 'my side' are you referring to the white position, or a pro-UBP position? In this day and age Calvin, they are far from being one and the same as you must have realized.

"My argument is that blacks fought hard to gain entrance and whites have *never* tried to integrate a traditionally black institution and that's the real reason why the PLP is still a black institution and not a true labor party"

If you look at the history Calvin, it was whites (albeit somewhat reluctantly), that made the first step in allowing blacks to integrate with their institutions. Don't get me wrong, the desire on the part of the blacks was there, but it would never have taken place had whites as a whole not realized that segregation could not be allowed to continue. Turn the tables, whites are now being barred entry to the PLP. So, in accordance to history, who's responsible for allowing integration? I think the problem is that we are so unaccustomed to whites integrating with blacks that we allow this novel experience to cloud our (historically based) judgment.

"There have never been any laws barring white entrance to a black institution, but the opposite is not true."

It may sound like I'm trying to defend my race in an argument that was lost before ever started, but here goes. Calvin, do you not think given the general hatred between *both* races in-between abolition and integration, that had blacks gained any sliver of power they would have done the same? Whites were in power, so naturally they used it to legalize their opinions. I think you are giving your race way too much of a benefit of the doubt to assume that whites would have been welcomed with open arms in black organizations of the time.

" If the relationship between whites and blacks is to mature, whites must be willing to play on our field just as we have shown willingness to play on yours."

Yes, and to do that we need to be let in. There are plenty amongst us who would be glad to 'play on your field'. To suggest that there aren't any implies that to this day, whites show absolutely no interest in integrating with blacks. Calvin, I really do hope that wasn't what you were implying.

On paper your argument sounds like a good one. However, you seem to be ignoring several holes in it punched through by history, and many of the people you are trying to defend. I hope you will respond to these points soon...

[Calvin on 22.05.04 at 13:38]

"While the PLP has welcomed a handful of whites, most of whom were sympathetic to the actual idea of a labor party instead of a 'black party', the UBP has welcomed many times more blacks."

Could it be possible that many times more blacks have tried to gain access to the UBP than whites that have showed up at the PLP? Again, I'm disputing it based on what we have seen in other areas. Just look at the secondary school example I provided.

To continue the analogy, show me that many of "you" have showed up at "our field".

[Calvin on 22.05.04 at 13:54]

Just digging up something you said in the Democratic Ideal thread:

"At the time, the white elites who ranged from employers to politicians did not look favorably on the black 'uprising'. That's not to say all white people did, but the people in power. Any white person seen supporting this cause was in danger of loosing their job or worse."

How can you now argue its the fault of the PLP that white people did not join their ranks? Times may have changed, but the net effect has not--the party still has no significant white membership.

[BDA JOE on 22.05.04 at 14:30]

"Could it be possible that many times more blacks have tried to gain access to the UBP than whites that have showed up at the PLP?"

Well, we won't know until the PLP decides to end it's openly racist policies will we? Back in the day, I'm quite sure blacks did not start to voice their support for the UBP until they saw the beginning of the party's integration. We will not know the actual number of whites who want to join a labor party, until the PLP does what the UBP did decades ago. It is way too premature to judge just how many whites are willing to change. Isn't it clear that many whites are withholding their true support for the party until they know they won't be rejected? Until the PLP discontinues it's anti-white rhetoric, whites will be scared to turn up.

You are basing your claim about blacks joining the UBP largely on a time after the party had publicly allowed blacks to join their ranks and even had a few black leaders. The same cannot be said to have happened with 'white' and 'PLP'.

I'm willing to bet the day the PLP elects a white leader, the day they do something to show that they don't believe that they are superior to the white race as a whole, that will be the day when many whites will jump ship from what used to be considered 'the white party'. Will the same percentage of whites join the PLP as that of blacks that joined the UBP? It's very likely.

"Just look at the secondary school example I provided"

That school analogy is rather weak I must say. Let's take the present day school system and compare it to the political situation. At the end of the day, we all want our children to have the best education. Right now, it is generally accepted that that education can be found in the private school system. Now that all schools are integrated, it's no longer a matter of color but one of finances. If you can afford to go to a private school you go, if you can't you go to a public school. There are exceptions, but that is roughly the paradigm these days. Public schools were never 'black schools'. They were owned and financed by a 'white' government, were they not? After the late 70's, it was one's financial situation that determined where their children went to school, not race. The fact that the Berkley's were populated by mostly blacks, and the Saltus's by mostly whites but some blacks demonstrates the economic divide of the races, not their desire to integrate with the other side.

"How can you now argue its the fault of the PLP that white people did not join their ranks? Times may have changed, but the net effect has not--the party still has no significant white membership."

You take that comment out of context. That might have been the situation at the beginning, but certainly in the last 25 years it hasn't. The white elite these days has only a fraction of the power it had, and even so it's ambitions today are not to prevent other whites from joining black institutions. I argue that over the last 25 years where there has been no fear of retribution, the blame for there being no whites in the party rests with the PLP. It's like a country club, you can't just storm in and demand membership. You have to be invited. Whites can only be judged on joining or not joining the PLP once they have been invited to do so. That invitation is apparently still in the mail...

[Calvin on 22.05.04 at 15:09]

BDA Joe,

Your argument is a cop-out. Plain and simple.

"Isn't it clear that many whites are withholding their true support for the party until they know they won't be rejected? Until the PLP discontinues it's anti-white rhetoric, whites will be scared to turn up."

This is way too convenient a stance to take. Again, this is settling instead of acting to make a better future for all Bermudians. Why are you afraid of the PLP? You said "scared" not me.

"I'm willing to bet the day the PLP elects a white leader, the day they do something to show that they don't believe that they are superior to the white race as a whole, that will be the day when many whites will jump ship from what used to be considered 'the white party'."

So until white people run the PLP there will be no white membership? That is an absolutely ludicrous stance to take. Again, absolves you of accountability in changing the party.

No, actually my school analogy is adequate. You conveniently ommit or forget that Berkeley provided an education of equivalent quality to WA *and* Saltus at least up until the day I graduated. I'm proof. Further, WA was a public school until 1996-1997. Please, explain to me why half those white students didn't attend Berkeley? And why many didn't jump ship after WA went private and attend the very much public Berkeley?

Sadly I don't have a census in front of me, but I have my suspicions that the statistics there back the statement that "public high schools are black schools". And conversely, that "private schools are white schools". But that isn't even my point. Berkeley always offered a strong alternative to WA, but whites never took advantage. But blacks took advantage of the WA opportunity. Are black kids "scary"?

Again, show me that whites have been interested in joining traditionally black institutions.

"It's like a country club, you can't just storm in and demand membership. You have to be invited. Whites can only be judged on joining or not joining the PLP once they have been invited to do so."

Pfffffffttttt. Ok, now this is a weak analogy. Blacks and women have fought in the public arena and court system to have laws changed so that they could be accepted and represented. There have never been laws in place to stop whites from joining the PLP. And if you are "scared" of a little negativity thrown your way, then it must be all the "scary people's" fault. Man, it's a cop out. Somebody has to step up to the plate.

[BDA JOE on 22.05.04 at 16:32]

"Your argument is a cop-out. Plain and simple."

Frankly, it is a cop-out for blacks to argue that the responsibility is with the whites to change the PLP when clearly it was they who made the monster.

"This is way too convenient a stance to take. Again, this is settling instead of acting to make a better future for all Bermudians. Why are you afraid of the PLP? You said "scared" not me."

Why is the onus on us to change them? I as a teenager have done nothing to give them any reason to dislike me for being white. It's time for the black population to put pressure on their government to discontinue their racist stance. After all, it is the black population, and only the black population who the PLP answers to. A failure on the part of black Bermudians to do this will show to me that they are content for the current system to remain in their name, making them as racist as the PLP.

"So until white people run the PLP there will be no white membership? That is an absolutely ludicrous stance to take. Again, absolves you of accountability in changing the party."

Read the whole paragraph Calvin. I didn't say that whites would hold out until a white leader was elected, but rather until the PLP demonstrated that they don't believe the white race to be inferior.

"conveniently ommit or forget that Berkeley provided an education of equivalent quality to WA *and* Saltus at least up until the day I graduated"

Really? Then why Calvin, did blacks who had the money start flocking to private schools? Why would they start migrating to institutions that weren't free, and that (according to you)didn't like them? Why wouldn't they stay in schools that could offer them the same education, for much, much less? Do you think that they were honestly trying to make a political statement?

" I'm proof."

Proof, eh? Frankly anyone who argues that white Bermudians are obligated to change the PLP missed a few social studies lessons...Evens so, I'd be interested to hear exactly how you know this to be true. Did you attend two schools at once?

"There have never been laws in place to stop whites from joining the PLP"

Nor has there ever been any laws about blacks and the UBP. They joined anyway, know why? Because the UBP made it clear to Bermudians that anyone was welcome. Not window-dressing, because this happened well before the PLP ever could have won the election. Could the same be said about the PLP? Of course not.

So while there are no laws to prevent whites from joining, there are PLP members. All 22 of them. Last year a PLP MP, Deloy Robinson, announced he no longer wished to take part in politics. So after absolutely no one else could be found to run, they put him in the most pro-UBP constituency on the island. Why not run a white person? If nothing else, just to make a point.

The PLP is racist and has made this quite clear. Whites aren't afraid of negativity, they're afraid of rejection. And nobody likes rejection.

[Calvin on 22.05.04 at 17:26]

Well, I did go to Saltus for a year. I have black and white friends that attended Berkeley, Saltus and Warwick Academy during that time period. So yeah, I have fair grasp of what those schools offered their students then.

Why do women today want access to Augusta? It's not because they may have the best golf courses, the best caddies or the best pro shop. That's too simplistic a model, due to the large number of other options available to them. It's because of the name Augusta, the high level contacts have been unable to establish over the back 9 and some of that desire is also due to the fact that they've been denied access.

Look, in no way have I suggested that "the monster" is the fault of whites. But I am suggesting that they have not met blacks half way on the matter of integration. You have not shown that whites have ever made an effort to join a black institution en masse. And yet you maintain the belief that you have been barred entry all these years.

Be careful, many of your statements are coming off just as racist as those you criticize.

I'm done here. You are willing to concede nothing and there is no reason to continue.

[loki on 22.05.04 at 19:04]

A bit of anecdotal evidence to consider, boys and girls: though I am a white Bermudian, I did not live here until I was fourteen. Shortly after we arrived on the Island, my parents tried to get me into one of the 'black' schools. Despite my excellent academic record (even though I do say so myself) when we met with the headmistress, she outright suggested that I was unlikely to fit in at her school and pointed us in the direction of Saltus just up the road. When my parents asked her what she meant, she simply indicated that the racial demographic of the school was overwhelmingly black and, therefore, I was likely to experience problems from my peers. True story......

[BDA JOE on 22.05.04 at 19:44]

"But I am suggesting that they have not met blacks half way on the matter of integration."

Look, at the time of integration there simply wasn't anything for whites to gain by integration. They (unlike blacks) couldn't improve politically or economically by letting blacks into their institutions. They simply came to the realization that segregation was morally wrong and an ugly relic of a past they'd rather forget.

I disagree that whites haven't met blacks half way on this. Yes it was blacks who plucked up the courage to try and enter white organizations, yes it was blacks that had to let go from much of the past and yes it is blacks who deserve most of the credit for integration. Yet, it would never have happened had whites not opened the opened the door so to speak. So to suggest that whites do anything to change society is not entirely accurate.

"You have not shown that whites have ever made an effort to join a black institution en masse."

Your right, there aren't any glaring examples of whites doing this. That said, that's how segregation and the resulting integration always works. The 'losers' always go up, the 'winners never go down. At the time of integration, whites as a whole were not interested in what their racist policies over the decades had created on the other side. What does that prove though? The races don't have to force themselves into each others institutions in order to have integration. All you need for integration, is to have no institution off limits for anyone based on their race.

Over time, the sectors of our society that once had the proverbial 'white side' and 'black side', such as the military, sports and many businesses have slowly fused into an awkward amalgamation of both. One all too obvious exception however, is the political parties. The 'white party' has carried their side to the half yard line, now it's time for the 'black party' to do the same.

If you insist to end the debate Calvin, I have just one question for you. Have you at all, because of my argument, or through serious thought on the matter by yourself, changed your mind on who's responsibility it is to change the PLP?

[Calvin on 22.05.04 at 21:32]

Loki,

I must admit that it is unfortunate (but unsurprising) that your parents were warned of sending you to Berkeley. I'll assume its Berkeley, but feel free to correct me if you feel. The headmistress was right to warn you and perhaps your parents were correct in following that advice. But they didn't have to. On an individual basis a family must do what is best for itself, but for an entire segment of the population to follow that route doesn't work for me. Again, at some point in time somebody has to step up to the plate.

Maybe it won't be your kids integrating a Berkeley, because of whatever reason. But it could be. Or it could be yourself taking steps to integrate the PLP, if what you seek is a focus on the labour force which isn't provided by the alternatives. Or it could wait another generation before we see whites coming to our table.

[The Limey on 22.05.04 at 22:07]

BDA Joe

"Well, we won't know until the PLP decides to end it's openly racist policies will we?"

What "openly racist policies" are you thinking of?

[loki on 22.05.04 at 23:16]

Don't get me wrong, Calvin, I think that the headmistress's advice was absolutely right. She was absolutely right to warn my parents that I was not going to fit in at the school. And she was right - there's no doubt in my mind that I would have had the crap kicked out of me on a fairly regular basis had my parents not heeded the headmistress's advice. Kids, regardless of race, will always pick on those that are not like them, whether that be because of nationality, race, weight, etc. That's what kids do.

My point was simply that it's not as easy as wanting to integrate sometimes. My parents were presented with a choice that wasn't really a choice at all, as were other parents who may have wanted to have placed their children in the school: I was welcome, so long as my parents understood that I was in for two years of being ostracized and getting the crap kicked out of me on a regular basis. That's a theoretical choice, certainly, but show me a parent that loves their child that would willingly place them in such a situation.

I just think that the problem of integration is so much more complex than whites having to make the choice to integrate. There are all manner of social factors involved, too.

[Calvin on 22.05.04 at 23:44]

Loki,

It's not a matter of being easy, but a matter of what needs to be done to move forward. Black parents did it with their young males when Saltus allowed them entry. And those kids suffered. Then when Saltus opened up to girls, I suspect those first girls suffered. I'm not saying those parents are any better or worse or even more enlightened, but it has to start somewhere.

With that said, the status quo in our education system was brought up as an analogy. I don't think white voters have the luxury of claiming that the PLP doesn't want them there. I've never claimed integration would be easy, but only that it is necessary. And just as black kids and young girls showed up at the gates after fighting to gain entrance, so must white voters who desire a labour party.

My whole argument is based on the assumption that a labour party that represents white voters is necessary in Bermuda. But if there are no white voters who desire a labour party, then we as an island are in deeper trouble than I thought.

[swing voter on 22.05.04 at 23:46]

Isn't Cal Smith's argument about whites needing to join the PLP to stop their racism sort of like saying that it's up to blacks to integrate the KKK and end their racism?

Would anyone defend that type of statement?

When it's made painfully clear that you're not welcome in an organisation, why would you join it?

[BDA JOE on 23.05.04 at 11:29]

here here...

[Lizardfish on 23.05.04 at 23:41]

Running with this fine analogy it's logical then that if the KKK was winning elections and the alternative to them had a slim chance of winning in the near future, that in order to bring about change, the blacks should attempt to join/ infiltrate the KKK, seeing as KKK memebers were asking them to do so. Then once in, the black members could do a lot of talking and perhaps solve the racist attitudes of the KKK in order to help bring harmony to the nation through the governing party.

My question is, how many whites will the PLP accept and how much are the PLP really willing to listen to white memebers if the did join and can change really come about this way?

Given the PLPs recent behaviour I have doubts!

[Calvin on 24.05.04 at 09:19]

Repeating statements doesn't make them true, but maybe by repeating questions I'll get them answered.

What openly racist or anti-white policies does the PLP support? What policies are in place that are definitively pro-black and not, plausibly, just pro-labour?

Where is the PLP's "No Whites Allowed" sign? Is it not plausible that there are more black UBP members than white PLP members simply because more blacks have gone to UBP meetings that whites to PLP meetings? Why is it assumed that whites will be turned away and their voices not heard?

[BDA JOE on 24.05.04 at 12:10]

"Where is the PLP's "No Whites Allowed" sign?"

I think it's more of a 'Blacks Only' sign...

[jake on 24.05.04 at 15:10]

swingvoter , your analogy on the PLP being similar to the KKK is not only unfair, it is patently racist. I have heretofore hesitated from calling you this, as I was sure that you wanted to offer an alternative point of view, but if you can compare an organization that spits hate, and has perpetuated a campaign of terror against black people that has included murder, intimidation, cross burnings, rapes, bombings of little girls in a church, and advocacy of these actions to the PLP you are yourself way off balance. Correct me if I am wrong, did any PLP members bomb a white church? Hang thousands of white men? Burn down houses?

You may disagree with the policies of the PLP. Fair enough. Many people both black and white do. But your and Bdajoe's comments have been consistent from the time he said that all PLP members were racist until now. You temper every comment about the white past with explanations and excuses. You say that was the people then, and they (you) are different today. But you are not. They accepted no responsibility then, and you accept none now. Even Phil tries to give you pause by asking what policies, what statements...but you ignore him. I wish you and your white power view of Bermuda no success.

As for what happened at the high schools, of course it is on point.

And loki if the Headmistress of Berkeley (if it was her since there has been only one woman) gave you that advice it was wrong. But she spent so many years heading up BHS that she does not understand her own institution. You would have made many friends and had many experiences that you missed out on. So a few kids may have teased you...so what? Black people are not animals you know. Black people have good and bad too. But how would you know that since you spent your time 'safely' away from blacks.

Lizardfish, I reserve my last comments for your addition to the KKK strain. A 'fine analogy'? It is a disgrace that you could associate yourself with such comments. Perhaps you people think that it is some kind of southern redneck joke. But then, none of your family were killed by them, I guess. Yeah, that must be it.

Your whole position as an advocate for peace in the world is made fraudulent by such comments. A shame, when members of your family have been REAL actors for change. Your comments disgrace them and their work.

[BDA JOE on 24.05.04 at 16:11]

I will admit Jake, that the PLP and the KKK are two very different organizations. Yet there is one glaring similarity. Both organizations were founded and continue to operate today under racial (and more specifically, racist) ideology.

Despite the fact that the ideologies are on either end of the spectrum, their fundamental goals are unique. For the advancement of one race and the objective of keeping the other just below. That, Jake, is what SV is comparing (I believe anyway), not that the means by which they carry out these goals are any way similar. Surely Jake, however much you won't want to admit it, will realize that some important principles behind both organizations are consistent? Could you not take some of the basic ideology of the KKK, switch the races, water it down severely and come up with the PLP?

I think you misunderstand my comments about 'all PLP members being racist'. I do not, repeat, do not believe that each and every one of the PLP MP's are active racists; racist like those people in the deep South who display the confederate flag, and burn crosses. However, anyone who willingly associates themselves with people who claim that black people who join the 'white party' are just whites with extra suntans, who waste taxpayers money just to choose the construction firm with the most blacks in it and who show a complete disregard for thousands of Bermudians just because they don't 'look like me' is in my mind, a racist. Call it guilty by association, call it whatever you want. There are very few people on this earth who are completely free of any racist ideas and sentiments, but if you can say that you're a PLP MP, you don't have a chance.

This just in, Jake: The PLP aren't saints! If you're white, they don't see you as being equal to themselves! Come on, wake up and stop being this PLP apologist in perpetual denial. Can you not see that the PLP's arsenal consists of blank rounds and decks of race cards? They lack any vision to change the country, and their 'new Bermuda' is simply a state in which they get free vacations and are voted in because of the color of their skin.

[loki on 24.05.04 at 18:35]

Jake

How dare you - for you to imply that either I or my parents think that black people are 'animals' merely because my parents chose to follow the advice of a black headmistress, who went out of her way to warn them off from sending their child to a school with which she was intimately familar, is disgusting, unwarranted and, frankly, racist in itself. Racist generalisations shuch as yours are precisely the reason why so many whites are reluctant to discuss the issue of race in this community. How dare you presume to know anything at all about either myself or my parents

[loki on 24.05.04 at 18:49]

And for you information: as a 14 year old boy, I certainly did not spend my time 'safely' away from black people. About 50% of my classmates at Saltus were black. No doubt, this fact won't stop you from spouting you racist and offensive generalisations, though.

[The Limey on 24.05.04 at 19:28]

If discussion on this thread is to continue, I'd like to make a request.

I'm curious to know if anyone can debate this issue without passing judgement on anyone else. Or to put it another way, whether anyone can express their opinion on the subject under discussion rather than on someone else's opinion.

Being non-judgemental isn't easy (and I'm terrible at it) but it seems to me that it makes for a more constructive debate that's less likely to end up upsetting everyone.

[BDA JOE on 24.05.04 at 19:31]

That means you Jake...

[Rich on 24.05.04 at 19:41]

BDA JOE,

Was that last quip really necessary?

[BDA JOE on 24.05.04 at 20:35]

In retrospect Rich, probably not. It didn't come out the way I intended it nor did it have the desired effect. This is often the case with such tongue and cheek remarks, as I think you'll remember from the 'birthright' thread...

The thing is, the Limey posted that just as I was preparing a similar post. Except he failed to mention who I thought was the most responsible for such offenses.

Now that your back, feel free to continue the 'Another Brick in the Wall', that was quite an interesting debate there for a while...

[jake on 24.05.04 at 23:12]

As a commenter bdajoe, I am happy to be seen as attacking your comments. That is the intention. Swingvoter compares a political party to a murderous organisation. But to you that's ok. You say that the PLP was founded on racist principals.

1. You were not there.
2. You have no information that supports that it was.

Fact is, it was not: it was founded to combat racist white Bermudians. But in your mind, if there were any, they were not that bad...were they? And for the record, the PLP had white members BEFORE the UBP had black ones. But since the struggle was against white domination, it is no surprise that there was no rush to join an organisation placed against that.

Loki...did I hurt your feelings? Guess what, nobody accused your parents of anything. My comments were directed at a headmistress who thought it was better that you go to a white school because you are white, and you who thought that being at a black school equalled getting beat up on a regular basis. That is animal behavior, and was not what happened everyday at school. But I am a racist for pointing that out?

As for 50% of your classmates in Saltus being black, that is ridiculous. Saltus has never had as high a proportion as that. The only school that did was Warwick Academy. And I went to Saltus Senior year as well, so I can tell you more about Saltus than you can tell me about public schools.

Here's a dose of reality: most black people in Bermuda do not care if whites discuss race or not. Today the onus is on you to discuss it, because the political power is not in your hands. As long as you cling to the belief that every black MP in the PLP is a racist by association, and by extension people who support the party are misled or equally racist, it is you who perpetuate the racism and keep the division alive.

As for my comments, Phil has the power to delete anything he wants. I will still write what I choose, and you will still read it if you choose.

One final note here about black people and white people in Bermuda, Phil. Now you see why race is so dominant in our society. Ask yourself this question: as a white person, does the majority of opinion from white Bermudian writers on this blog express your honest heartfelt opinion?

That means swingvoter, tigerbay, bdajoe, generally and now lizardfish (KKK comment) and loki (beat up comment)?

Funny thing is that there is more listening done by the Limey in Bermuda than the white people represented here in Bermuda. What does that tell you? What do you think it tells me?

[jake on 24.05.04 at 23:52]

Here's another question: why have NONE of you protested the KKK analogy? Can you not imagine how hurtful that post was? To compare a political organisation I have seen from childhood fight for rights for me, in the same light as those who have killed black people for fun. You do not understand black people if you can raise those letters with anything but apology on your lips. Shame on each one of you for it. Call me whatever you wish now. From person's like you I welcome it.

[Lizardfish on 25.05.04 at 11:33]

OMG! I said it was a good analogy for the spefic points being made. In no way was I saying that the PLP was as bad as the KKK. Jake if you read my post. I agreed with C. Smith that more people should join the PLP. I just expressed my doubts about how much change this could bring. I am REALLY sorry to have written such a post which could have been so misinterpreted!!

One of my close friends is a white PLP member and I think that from my recent conversations with him, I have a learnt a lot about racism within the PLP.

As for the rest of your comments about me being a racist, well.... I will leave all that in your court. I would never judge someone so harshly on the basis of ONE clearly misunderstood paragraph!

And leave my family OUT OF IT! Because you clearly have no clue about them or me.

With reference to the PLP and their racist policies, you only have to look at CURE and ask yourself why are blacks getting jobs over whites regardless of qualifications time and time again.

With regards to yout comments on the PLP never commiting racist crimes, I would ask you to check your history and find out more about the Black Beret Cadre and the events that took place on March 10, 1973 and then take a look at the current members of the PLP! But then I guess you are going to tell me the BBC had nothing to do with race. Huh?

And what about the the race based slogans and skits of the recent PLP election campaign. Don't tell me you forgot.

I am against discrimination of ANY kind, even positive discrimination, which is a contradiction terms, because how can you have discrimination, which is positive? I feel the PLP encourages what you may call "positive discrimnation" and this has to stop if racial equality is to be truly reached by Bermudian society.

[Lizardfish on 25.05.04 at 11:49]

should read "more WHITE people should join the PLP"

and FYI I am seriously thinking that when I finish my g'damn thesis, I might do just THAT!

I do not have a problem with all members of the PLP, far from it. From what I have learned in the short time I have been back on the island, some members of the PLP have been keen to invest in the environment, and I am really not so sure, a UBP government would have been so willing. And I say.... I am not sure. That's all.

L.

L.

[Hobbes on 25.05.04 at 12:07]

Calvin is yanking your collective "guilt" chains.

[loki on 25.05.04 at 12:21]

"Loki...did I hurt your feelings? Guess what, nobody accused your parents of anything. My comments were directed at a headmistress who thought it was better that you go to a white school because you are white, and you who thought that being at a black school equalled getting beat up on a regular basis."

Possibly one of the most blatantly disengenuous and wholly dishonest statements made on this site: it is quite clear from the snide and condescending tone of your post, together with the content of your earlier post that you absolutely were making offensive statements regarding both myself and my parents. It's the 'oh, you silly, naive white people' tone that you generally employ that does it, you see. Why
dishonest? Well, as you admit, you were having a go at me for saying that I was likely to come in for a good deal of abuse by going to a black school. However, by lifting that statement out of context, and putting in the terms that you did, you ommitted to say that I had qualified my statement considerably (you knew that and intentionally left it out, but I'll repeat it for the benefit of others):

"Kids, regardless of race, will always pick on those that are not like them, whether that be because of nationality, race, weight, etc. That's what kids do."

So, you knew very well that I wasn't stating that that these kids behave this way because they're black 'animals' (your word) - I was saying that ALL kids pick on those that aren't like them, because that's what children do. In Saltus, the fat kids got picked on and, as it turned out, I was picked on because I sounded like a limey. So, I'd appreciate it if you wouldn't blatantly misrepresent what I have said in order to further your own arguments.

And I've just gone and looked at my yearbook - out of 30 children in my class, 14 were black. So, I guess your right. I was wrong when I said that 50% of my classmates were black. It was more like 46%, which is obviously a shockingly bad misrepresentation on my part.......

As for the KKK comments - it was an analogy, not a literal comparison, as anybody could have seen (though, apparently, not you).

[Rich on 25.05.04 at 13:05]

BDA JOE

While I am white and no fan of the PLP, some of these comments seem really off base:

"Both organizations were founded and continue to operate today under racial (and more specifically, racist) ideology."

"their fundamental goals are unique. For the advancement of one race and the objective of keeping the other just below."

The PLP certainly was founded on a racial ideology: one that is predicated on parity between the races - something that would necessarily involved advancement. I guess an important question to ask is whether or not such "getting even", so to speak, is characterised by a positive sum relationship, or a zero-sum one (or even negative, as perhaps some Klansmen might say).

Nonetheless, I do have to say that overt racial nationalism (I would not call it racism) does, in fact, make me uncomfortable. Especially when people have told me, to my face that, I'm not welcome or that my 'kind' has benefited from years of horrid slave policy - nothwithstanding that I come from a long and illustrious line of serfdom. Still, I understand that such action is very, very rare of the black community.

I think my biggest problem with the PLP is that its a very conservative party - both socially, and economically (I adressed the latter point in the Class Warfare forum).

Final note to BDA JOE - not quite 'back' so to speak, I've been hopping from one cyber cafe to another. But I would like to continue the "Another Brick in the Wall" forum, especially with other people! *hint hint* Although probably not as much as when it was in full swing given the inevitable dissipiation of one's zeal for debate!

[Rich on 25.05.04 at 13:08]

Loki, I was in the process of writing my last comment when yours popped up, so let me jsut say this...

I understand that the KKK/PLP anology was 'not a literal comparison', but I also understand it when people get upset about such analogies, because it was a ridiculous one to make.

I also think you were being fairly disingenuous yourself in your criticisms of jake's comments, making your own unfounded inferences. Still, I leave that up to Jake to reply as I will not pretend to speak for him.

[loki on 25.05.04 at 13:14]

I agree with Rich: I think that it is unfair to state that the PLP arose out of racist ideology. It arose because there was a need for a party to represent the labour element of Bermuda society as well as the black population. For the most part, the politicans of the day certainly couldn't be relied upon to advance the interests of the black population and labour.

Whilst I find many of the PLP's strategies, statements and policies (official or otherwise) racist, I certainly don't think that that's how the PLP started out.

[loki on 25.05.04 at 13:26]

Having just agreed with your earlier post, Rich, I have to disagree with your characterization of my response to Jake. Maybe I drew some inferences that others thought were inappropriate and unwarranted. I disagree, but I respect your right to think that. The difference is that, whereas some may think that I, perhaps, overreacted, if that was the case it certainly wouldn't be as a result of being disengenuous. Jake intentionally took a comment that I had made - and specifically qualified - and posted it out of context and without the specific qualification that I had made. That is dishonest. That is disengenuous.