Israeli Terrorism
In recent weeks, the international news has become increasingly depressing. I wish I could tear myself away from the violence, dishonesty and hypocrisy currently saturating it. But I'm transfixed in horror.
Take Israel. The actions of the Israeli army this week in Gaza, where they fired on a crowd of Palestinian protestors, killing ten, were simply the culmination of months of increasingly aggressive policies. The construction of the "Security Barrier" along the border with the West Bank (or more usually, well inside it), the plan to retain the major West Bank settlements forever, the extra-judicial assassinations - all supported or only mildly condemned by the Americans - have led to such a deterioration in the situation in the Middle East that Ariel Sharon and George Bush appear to be trying to prolong the conflict, not solve it. And I thought 9/11 was supposed to lead to the opposite.
A suicide bombing on a Tel Aviv bus is a horrific thing. It's an act of terrorism with no possible justification. But the Israelis are using terror just as enthusiastically as the militants. During the recent Israeli operations in Gaza, the Economist - hardly a bleeding-heart liberal newspaper - estimates that 14,000 Palestinians have been made homeless. That doesn't sound like legitimate military operations against armed combatants. That sounds like strikes against civilians, designed to inflict fear and panic. Amnesty International has described them as "grave breaches of the Fourth Geneva Convention" and "war crimes". Acts of terrorism, I'd say. And just as inexcusable as the Palestinian variety.
Even the Americans seem to think the recent Israeli action has strayed beyond the bounds of acceptability. For the first time in as long as I remember the US declined to use its veto against a UN Security Council resolution criticising the recent Israeli action. It was a rare rebuke from Israel's chief apologist. Unconcerned, Ariel Sharon has continued on his rampage.
I have no sympathy with the Palestinian radicals who continue to dream about driving the Israelis into the sea. The only possible solution to the current conflict can be a two-state one. But as time goes by I become more certain that the establishment of Israel was one of the biggest mistakes of modern times. While understandable given the awfulness of the Holocaust, an injustice done to one people has merely been replaced by an injustice done to another. Israel lost much of its claim to the moral high ground of victimhood many years ago. The remainder was squandered in the dust of Rafah this week.
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Let me take you back. When we think of the second world war I think probably the first thing we think of is how the jews suffered imeasurable harm. What they went through is rightly well publicised even today. When you read about it, you would think that the opportunity they were given to form their own nation would create a compassionate nation keen to make sure no one had to suffer the torture they went through. Well as you read the news every day it seems you'd be far from that ideal. The comparisons between how the jews suffered and now how the palestinians suffer seem to me to be getting closer. Of course the numbers will never compare and their are big differences but here we have a nation that shows the littlest regard for human palestinian life. Nazi soldiers it would seem showed no remorse in killing innocent jews, well hey look at the israeli army. I remember that fine film Shindler's list when the general played exceptionally by Ranulp Fiennes picked off jews with his rifle. This is going on today in Palestine but its not only rifles. It always amazes me how cruel man can be to his fellow man, but is it not just as cruel just to turn a blind eye? Money rules the world and again at the expense of lives. Now when I hear of suicide bombs I actually start to feel sorry for the bomber as well. Ok they are brainwashed but their lives must be so desparate in the first place to want to listen to it, and come on lets face it, it is. I see no resolution to this problem, the israelis have gone too far across the line like the nazis to ever pull back unless military action is taken against them. Of course that shouldn't happen, but can anyone see another way??? One other point, before we (rightly) bitch about america on this. Many so-called muslim countries let palestinians suffer in their country too, with decreased rights, poverty etc all in the name of religion. Everyone of us has blood on their hands, as well blood from many other unfortunate souls from many countries where suffering is repeatedly ignored.........
Posted by David on 21.05.04 at 20:12
Now the Israeli Justice Minister is comparing the army's offensive in Gaza to the suffering his family endured in World War II.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/3740649.stm
Mr. Lapid said he thought if Israel carries on like this they'll be expelled from the UN and those responsible will stand trial at the Hague.
If only.
Posted by The Limey on 23.05.04 at 13:40
I saw a program on TV last night, documentary about the children of gaza. There were 2 cheerful, cheeky boys who were interviewed and filmed over a few months. The brave camera crew filmed their daily life of tanks/bulldozers and gunfire. There was a girl who'd lost 10 members of her family, one of who was filmed coming into hospital having been shot for throwing rocks at a tank. He was 10 and died 4 hrs later. These tanks come in every other day to destroy what little's left of their town rafah. The games they play in the streets is pigs v palestinians with fake guns and bombs. He wants to grow up and evenge the lives of people he knows have dies in the conflict. You can't be surprised the life he leads he wants to do this and can only have sympathy for him. Whats disturbing is how everyone who dies in Palestine for whatever reason is a martyr and is paraded as such. Even the boys think this is better then living and with the horrendous life they lead who can blame thinking their is something better. The documentary finished with the harrowing death of the british cameraman who'd worked for 16 months to film how terrible life is out there. They were in the house of the boy one evening when an APC (armed personal carrier) and a bulldozer came to destroy next door's house. They vehicles waited in the dark and it was late. The reporter, camerman and another walked out of the house to go home wearing bulletproof vests and hats saying TV, waving a white flag which they lit with a torch and shouting who they were. He was shot in the neck and died instantly, and this was filmed by another camerman still in the house. More shots came and the other 2 were lucky to be alive. This happened in May 2003 and no ones been brought to justice. Yet again one rule for israel, one for the rest of the world. How can they ever expect peace in their land, sorry in someone elses land....
Posted by David on 26.05.04 at 12:57
Israel may have the right to put others on trial,but certainly no one has the right to put the jewish people and the state of Israel on trial.
Israeli prime minister Ariel Sharon
25th March 2001 as quoted on BBC news online.
Posted by Bill Cook on 05.12.05 at 07:39
Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad has openly called for Israel to be wiped off the map.
"The establishment of the Zionist regime was a move by the world oppressor against the Islamic world," the president told a conference in Tehran on Wednesday, entitled The World without Zionism.
"The skirmishes in the occupied land are part of a war of destiny. The outcome of hundreds of years of war will be defined in Palestinian land," he said.
"As the Imam said, Israel must be wiped off the map," said Ahmadinejad, referring to Iran's revolutionary leader Ayat Allah Khomeini.
His comments were the first time in years that such a high-ranking Iranian official has called for Israel's eradication, even though such slogans are still regularly used at government
rallies.
- Aljazerra.Net - October 26, 2005
Posted by ace on 05.12.05 at 08:40
The quote by Sharon in an interview to a reporter Amos Oz pub. in Dec. 17 1982 issue of a paper called Davar,and part was pub. in a German paper Achener Zeitun on April 2002 translated into English as follows.
Now dont be shocked: if they (the diaspora jews who simply allowed themselves to be killed by the Nazis)had killed 6 or even one million Arabs, what would have happened ? sure 2 or 3 ugly pages would have been written for history books, we would have been given all kinds of bad names but we could live here in a nation of 25 million ...even today I am prepared to accomplish the dirty work for Israel : to kill as many Arabs as neccessary, to deport them, to drive them out and to BURN THEM . The fact is it could have been brought to an end in 1948,but you have prevented it because of the Jewishness in your souls...and you can write I am a shame to humanity,it wont matter, on the contrary.
Posted by Bill Cook on 05.12.05 at 09:44
PBS has a great documentary called the "50 years war" which chronicles, in an unbiased fashion, the israel/palestine debachle. I highly reccomend it. At the end don't look for answers though, you will be disgusted with both sides.
Posted by silencedogood on 05.12.05 at 10:09
As the world changes, it stays the same, doesn't it? Holy shit, it's all rather kicked off today in Israel and Lebanon. I'm just waiting for Syria and Iran to wade in next and for the four horseman of the apocolypse to come riding over Lighthouse Hill.......
Posted by loki on 14.07.06 at 16:08
loki you're right. Just wish the Iranians and Syrians had called me ahead of time to let me know they were going to send in the terrorists so I could have gone out and bought a few barrels of oil. What a great scheme to get rich quick these guys have going.
Add another million dollar bonus to the pockets of Big Oil CEO's. Thank you very much.
Posted by SmokingGun on 14.07.06 at 16:22
Limey -
The world hated the jews when they didn't have a country, now they hate them becuase they do have a country.
We know that the Arabs don't want them there. Should Israel accept border incursions as the norm. I can't imagine the U.S or the UK accepting them from anyone.
Its easy to pontificate about these matters from the safety of your comfortable home in Bermuda. Israel has to fight or die. These people donot want peace, the moderate element in the Palestinian Territories are powerless. The men of war are in charge.
Posted by Teacher on 14.07.06 at 17:33
Israeli Terrorism
Limey shouldn't you have a question mark after the title?
Posted by Teacher on 14.07.06 at 17:38
Teacher
No, no question mark. To repeat:
Similarly, bulldozing the homes of the families of sucicide bombers (who may be completely innocent) is not a legitimate military response, it's a tactic designed to instill fear. Terrorism, in other words.
Posted by The Limey on 14.07.06 at 17:54
Israel is the centre of all things from banking, a crossroad for all drugs, the maison mere for all arms trafficking and as well, conflict diamonds. America sends this nation millions of dollars every year without fail. It doesn’t take much effort to do the math.
Posted by Ethiops on 14.07.06 at 18:57
Ethiops its billions not millions.
why is a much more interesting question however and one I am still trying to figure out.
Posted by Bill Cook on 14.07.06 at 19:33
Thanks Bill for clearing that up I thought it was too but, didn't wanna go out on a limb and say so.
Posted by Ethiops on 14.07.06 at 19:45
Limey
Should Israel accept border incursions as the norm?
Waht would you do if rockets were being fired into St Georges?
Posted by Teacher on 15.07.06 at 08:30
Teacher,
First you may have to define where the borders are would you not ?
Posted by Bill Cook on 15.07.06 at 09:01
The ones recognised by the UN
Posted by Teacher on 15.07.06 at 09:23
Teacher
Go after the militants who actually conducted the attacks. Taking care not to kill any civilians while you're doing it, never mind specifically targeting them.
Bill's point is very valid too. For example, that "Security Barrier" that Israel constructed was not along the internationally-accepted border between Israel and the West Bank, but made deep incursions into Palestinian territory.
Posted by The Limey on 15.07.06 at 09:27
Go to Google
The Cost to Israel of the American People by Richard Curtiss.
This will give information most are not aware of I think.
Posted by Bill Cook on 15.07.06 at 09:59
"why is a much more interesting question however and one I am still trying to figure out." - Bill Cook
Is it largely due to the amount of American Jews that have migrated there?
The actions of attacking Israel to kill people and kidnap soldiers was an act of aggression to create havoc in the middle east and to draw others in. Israel has struck back harshly for one simple reason. To let the world know that they will do whatever it takes to protect it's people. Fair enough. What this situation is doing is putting the responsibilty directly into the lap of the UN. Russia, France, Germany
et al can no longer be side-line judges, they need to get into Lebanon and help that country enforce the UN mandate for Hezbollah to participate in it's politics by disarming.
As much as I do not like how Isreal goes about much of it's business I do understand why it feels it needs to be aggressive when being threatened in this manner.
Posted by SmokingGun on 15.07.06 at 12:30
Smoke,
take the time to pull up The Cost of Israel to the American People by Richard Curtiss and you will see the root cause of the problem.
Bear in mind too that the World Trade Centre bombings and plane crashes were associated.
Ramzi Yuoseff who failed but caused damage said that he did it because of the treatment of Palestinians by Israel with American support
and Osama Bin Laden said the same I mean they did it so should know but who knows.
There should be a return to 67 borders and an international peace keeping force in place to end the occupation that would be a noble effort and protect both sides.
Posted by Bill Cook on 15.07.06 at 12:54
Bill - I'm printing it and will read it later today.
Posted by SmokingGun on 15.07.06 at 13:19
Iran is at the forfront of this latest blow up. It is their political strategy to sucker punch Israel. They do not want peace they want to divide the west and reap sympathy for the arab nations whilst they construct nuclear weapons. After that they will bomb Irael with the world believing Israel deserves it. At least thats the master plan.
Posted by Nut Case on 15.07.06 at 13:40
limey I appreciate your sentiments, War is an awfull thing.
The people around the state of Israel would be glad to ethnically cleanse the area of Jews. You must realise this. Many organisations with popular followings put forward this view. Some states have even said this. (Iran)
It amazes me that there is such little support for the Jews.
I know you have your reasons for your stand point. What are your thoughts on the following below.
Do you think Syria and Iran have a case to answer for arming the terrorists in that area and also in Southern iraq? As you know many British soldiers have been killed by Iranian technology in the form of IEDs.
Posted by teacher on 15.07.06 at 14:50
Teacher
I do not support anyone who commits terrorist acts, or the countries who arm them.
Posted by The Limey on 15.07.06 at 15:03
People naturally sympathise with the percieved under dog. Iran and Hamas have learned to play that card. Should peace break out in the middle east what would all those Hezbolah and Hamas fighters do? They would have to go out and get a job!
Posted by Nut Case on 15.07.06 at 15:03
Teacher,
I do not know how much you know of the origins of the state of Israel.
Remember one thing the Genises of terrorism in the ME did not start with the Arabs it started with the Jews.
The Irgun Zvai Leumi led by Menachim Begin dynamited Arab homes and blew up the King David Hotel killing Hundreds including British nurses and hanging British soldiers etc.
Jonathan Pollard was an Israeli spy who stole nuclear secrets from the US and sold to Russia and he is in prison in spite of very determined efforts to have him freed by the Jewish Israeli Lobby.
It is not so much that the Arabs do not want Israel to have a state its just they dont want it on land belonging to them understandably.
There will be no peace in the area and the biggest losers will be the Palestinians who are not a state have no army and are both imprisoned and impoverished.
Over one million of the Israelis are recently from Russia and have more rights than Arab Israelis who have been there for centuries both Christian and Muslim as Ramallah was almost totally Christian before the divide.
Dont look for simplicity in this area as its far from simple.
On my wall of my desk is a photo of a two members of the IDF posing over the body of an 11 yr old Palestinian child like he was a jungle animal shot on Safari.
The real terrorists are the IDF in my opinion.
Posted by Bill Cook on 15.07.06 at 18:31
It is not so much that the Arabs do not want Israel to have a state its just they dont want it on land belonging to them understandably.
Bill the Land does belong to the Jews - The UN rattified that in 1948
If not Judea then where would you put these people? Its fine saying lets all get along, I belive in the 2 state principle, however lets not forget that Iran, and its terrorists want Israel scorched of the face of the earth.
What would you do? i would like peace, but as you know sometimes peace comes later.
My most important point
I was sickened by the Killing of an 11 year old child by a soldier. I remember the footage on TV. Its one of those things you wished you had never seen, yet one you can never forget, neither should forget.
If I had that picture on my desk I may well end up hating jews.
The Irgun Zvai Leumi led by Menachim Begin dynamited Arab homes and blew up the King David Hotel killing Hundreds including British nurses and hanging British soldiers etc.
Bill I was never a fan of Menachim Begin, older relatives often brought this matter up of the murder of British Soldiers. What can I say?
To this day I find it hard to accept Sinn fein as a legitimate party, nevertheless one must for the process of peace I guess.
Posted by teacher on 15.07.06 at 20:12
Teacher,
Even if you beleived that the UN had the authority to divide up land that never belonged to them the facts are that Israel occupies over 75% of the land now and refuses to go back to the land allotted to them and continues to build on land that was designated by the UN for a Palestinian state even then they gave 53% to the Jews and 47% to the Palestinians hardly fair.
I have spent a great deal of time over the yrs on this so with respect you are free to believe what you want to as indeed are we all and you are not alone in your support of Israel,
not least the US which uses its power of veto to defeat the United Nations Security Councils sanctions from being imposed on Israel
Posted by Bill Cook on 15.07.06 at 20:36
Why are you so anti Jew?
Posted by teacher on 15.07.06 at 20:44
I am not anti Jewish I am anti Zionism and my educators are mostly jews who likewise are opposed to Zionism but thats where I leave you on this one except to say I almost married a jew not because she was a jew but because she was a terrific female and I am non religious anyway I am a Humanist, hope that helps.
Posted by Bill Cook on 15.07.06 at 20:56
"It is not so much that the Arabs do not want Israel to have a state its just they dont want it on land belonging to them understandably."
lol...that's hilarious.
Posted by ace on 15.07.06 at 21:03
Bill thanks for your comments,
I'm going to leave this thread. Its a very emotive subject and one which is filled with human heart ache on all sides.
Posted by teacher on 15.07.06 at 21:04
What took you so long ace ?
Posted by Bill Cook on 15.07.06 at 21:07
ace,
what's so funny about that?
...They just reported on CNN that 262 Lebanese were killed so far in this outbreak of violence... So far, 27 Israeli's have died.
Israel is really exercising restraint!
Posted by Bermudian on 16.07.06 at 10:26
Well Bill, I did post something above that the Iranian Head of State said about the Irael "problem". He mentioned a "final solution" too:
"As the Imam said, Israel must be wiped off the map," said Ahmadinejad, referring to Iran's revolutionary leader Ayat Allah Khomeini.
It sort of conflicts with your nice little sugar coated summation.
I suppose now you will come up with some sort of genetic proof that Iranians aren't actually Arabs or something so that you can say your quote isn't technically incorrect, or something.
Your knowledge of matter relating to the formation of Israel is quite astounding...I've read many of your letters to the RG and many of your posts here. It is almost as if you have been indoctrinated into believing one side of the entire debate.
Who were these jewish educators you speak of?
Then I read this:
"On my wall of my desk is a photo of a two members of the IDF posing over the body of an 11 yr old Palestinian child like he was a jungle animal shot on Safari.
The real terrorists are the IDF in my opinion."
LO "Fing" L
Those jewish educators of yours must be proud.
I'm guessing you have many "other" non-educator jewish friends who really like that photo too. I'm sure if you were married to that jewish girl you mention her relatives would really like it too. lol Or do you endear yourself to Arab friends by putting your mid-east politics right out there?
Me? I have a big picture of a US Battleship shelling Lebanon a few years ago above my desk. It's really cool. Huge flames are coming out of the guns. It's neato.
Posted by ace on 16.07.06 at 10:40
Ace while I support the right of Israel to defend itself. I find your comments about the killing of the Palestinian boy very offensive, as I'm sure many Jewish people feel. This whole situation is a 'bloody mess'
I did not agree with all that Bill said, however, I fully understand why he might dispaly this picture in his office, as a reminder of the continuing evil that is armed conflict.
While this situation is unfolding, perhaps you could leave your heartless comments.
Posted by Teacher on 16.07.06 at 10:49
"ace,
what's so funny about that?"
It's funny that Bill says Arabs do not really oppose a Jewish state. It is so bullshit it is funny...in an ironic way.
Posted by ace on 16.07.06 at 10:50
"Ace while I support the right of Israel to defend itself. I find your comments about the killing of the Palestinian boy very offensive, as I'm sure many Jewish people feel. This whole situation is a 'bloody mess' "
I think you need to go back and read who mentioned the Palestinean boy in the first place. That was Bill....the guy who has a picture of said boy on his wall in his office apparently.
My comment about the US Battleship was "tongue in cheek". I don't have such politcal garbage has any place on the wall in my office.
Posted by ace on 16.07.06 at 10:53
"however, I fully understand why he might dispaly this picture in his office, as a reminder of the continuing evil that is armed conflict."
Really?
Is that why he has that picture there...as a general reminder of the evil of armed conflict?
Wow...so much armed conflict in world history and he chooses THAT one.
Sorry...I think you have rose coloured glasses on.
Posted by ace on 16.07.06 at 11:11
Ace, if you've nothing of substance to add...and, apparently you don't....then don't post. It's obviously an emotional issue for you, you should collect your thoughts before spewing your garbage.
Posted by jsm on 16.07.06 at 11:41
I'm sorry...Bill Cook can say whatever he likes and yet "I" am spewing garbage by calling him out on some of what he says?
Bill "adds" value by accusing the IDF of being the real terrorists and by claiming he is justified in displaying pictures of members of the IDF as hunters standing over a dead Palestinian child?
Gotcha.
Posted by ace on 16.07.06 at 11:48
"It's funny that Bill says Arabs do not really oppose a Jewish state. It is so bullshit it is funny...in an ironic way."
Just wondering why you think it is bullshit (I actually haven't read any of your other posts so if you have already said why it is bullshit, just let me know).
Posted by Bermudian on 16.07.06 at 11:55
"Bill Cook can say whatever he likes and yet "I" am spewing garbage by calling him out on some of what he says?"
Yes, you're being childish and emotional. Debate like an adult, and maybe you'll get your point across.
"Bill "adds" value by accusing the IDF of being the real terrorists and by claiming he is justified in displaying pictures of members of the IDF as hunters standing over a dead Palestinian child?"
No, Bill points out facts surrounding the IDF, and their terrorist actions...sorry if it's hard to accept.
Posted by jsm on 16.07.06 at 12:02
Bermudian, I am going to bow out after this last post, because it is turning a bit emotive, but here is an example:
The Palestininans recently DEMOCRATICALLY elected Hamas as their government.
Hamas does not even recognise the State of Israel.
Teacher is right, the whole mid-east is a mess.
Bill and I just tend to disagree on where the majority of the fault rests...because admittedly it most certainly resides in both.
Posted by ace on 16.07.06 at 12:09
Not wanting to fan the flames, but they are both as guilty as each other. As far as I see it, both the IDF and the Palatinian groups are terrorists, and they both commit atrocities
Posted by Pitts Bay on 16.07.06 at 12:22
"It amazes me that there is such little support for the Jews."
If Israel acted in a more appropriate fashion, it would have more support. Unfortunately, Israel continues to act in a wholly disproportinate and provocative manner, which is the reason why few have much sympathy.
Posted by loki on 16.07.06 at 12:45
ace,
That doesn't really explain why Bill's comments were "bullshit". I can certainly see where Bill is coming from. Do you honestly think that the Arabs would have so much hatred for Jews if Israel was not located on Palestinian land???
That's why the problem exists and that's why it will continue to exist until they can work out the land situation.
"Bill and I just tend to disagree on where the majority of the fault rests...because admittedly it most certainly resides in both."
Well, at least we all can agree on that!
Posted by Bermudian on 16.07.06 at 13:37
Bill Cook - I read the article you suggested. It raises some very valid and telling points. As I have said I am not a big fan of how Israel goes about it's business and after reading the article I must say the US is not acting in the best interest of the Middle East as a whole. It is a slippery slope that they need need to get off of.
The one thing that gets me is how can Israel expect Lebanon to enforce and abide by the UN's stipulations when they themselves have not? If it were in my power I would revisit the border issues immediately and use an international force to control all borders. It would be money better spent by the US.
Posted by SmokingGun on 19.07.06 at 14:11
Smoke,
I have just installed a new LCD tv with a sharp picture and looking at the ME.
I am no authority other than the experience of running with my mother when the sirens went off in Belfast as we were bombed constantly by the Germans who were after our ship building and munutions factories but hit residential areas and we had to find shelters.
The horror of that as a 7 yr old is still with me and a building hit by a bomb and the bodies blown apart and put in churches to be assembled is devastating.
That is what the Palestinians endure not for 4 yrs but 10 times that.
Of course the answer is not in military might as you cant fight terrorism with convential weaponery as it an idealogy not a nation and you need to change the mind set.
If they returned to the borders and had a really powerful peacekeeping force there it seems the best way and in the very least it is impossible to broker a peace until the Palestinians have the land allotted to them no progress or a first step is possible without that.
All we get is rhetoric but no movement.
It will very difficult to get a lasting solution now with the hatred generated which breeds terrorism and a thirst for revenge but someone must see the situation for what it is and a statehood for both and an even opportunity for peace and the pursuit of happiness.
The UN created this dilemma and it is responsible for solving it without self serving vetoes by the US when it does not suit Israel or themselves.
Palestinians are poorly armed and impoverished living in squalor in overcrowded conditions so the youth see no future and feel like they would rather die on their feet than live on their knees.
I am neither Arab or Jew and feel both need a secure homeland but the bias toward Israel is obvious and the dead and home destruction in the Palestinian areas greatly outnumbers those in Israel who boast also of being one of the wealthiest countries.
It seems unfair but we must each evaluate for ourselves and make our own decisions.
If you go to Irish Anti War .org there are some good viewpoints I feel.
Posted by Bill Cook on 19.07.06 at 14:54
Bill I hear you. I have a Lebanese friend stuck in Beirut and I have Jewish friends concerned over the future. It's a very difficult time and I certainly hope there will be a way forward to find a more peaceful and stable solution.
Posted by SmokingGun on 19.07.06 at 15:39
One has to wonder how strong a hold Israel has on the USA to destroy Lebonon blocking all avenues of escape while 25,000 US citizens are trapped and can not get out safely it seems not to mention other nationalities.
The tardiness of the USA in sending in ships etc seems to be that most of the 25,000 were of Lebonese background and I wonder if they had been Jews if there would have been the same scenario give the value placed on Jewish lives compared to that of Arabs either Christian or Muslim.
Posted by Bill Cook on 20.07.06 at 16:00
I think its fairly safe to say that one needs to go back more than a few thousand years (not simply 50) before one can even begin to understand the genesis of Judaism and resulting distillation to where we are today and the current state of Israel.
Posted by observor on 20.07.06 at 16:27
You know something Bill. I think you are dead on. The same story would apply to why Katrina was handled so piss-poorly. Was it because the population was largely black and poor? To a large extent one would probably assume that was the case.
Posted by SmokingGun on 20.07.06 at 16:38
Bill & Smokes,
There you go....never miss a chance to bash the good ole USA. Don't you already know that you can blame just about anything on us?
Posted by Jimmy on 20.07.06 at 17:00
"Don't you already know that you can blame just about anything on us?"
That's the most logical step, when you're the root of the problems....or don't they teach common sense in 'merica?
Posted by jsm on 20.07.06 at 17:12
Jimmy explain to us folk how it is that you have 1 in 5 children living below the poverty line and 1 in 3 seniors who cant afford their precription medication yet the children of Israel have braces on their teeth and lap top computers and their seniors have great medical care but yet the US taxpayer sends billions and billions of dollars to Israel which it has to borrow and pay interest on and no one can tell me what the USA gets in return.
If you know and if your are a US voter and should know please inform us.
Posted by Bill Cook on 20.07.06 at 17:25
JSM,
Like I said....blame us for everything. God forbid that countries actually take blame themselves for their rotten lot in life. Blame us for the Israeli conflict, bombings in India et al. I guess everyone is always lookin' to knock off the guy at the top.
Posted by Jimmy on 20.07.06 at 17:33
Jimmy one thing we can not blame on you all is rushing into world war 2 !!
Posted by Bill Cook on 20.07.06 at 18:26
Bill,
Touche..I love it!
Posted by Jimmy on 20.07.06 at 18:35
"God forbid that countries actually take blame themselves for their rotten lot in life"
God forbid that 'mericans take any responsibility for their actions...it's always someone elses fault.
...guess what, the rest of the world doesn't hat your 'freedom', we hate your arrogance, and "you sticking your nose in other peoples sovereign business, to line your own pockets".....your posts are a perfect example of the "ugly american".
Posted by jsm on 20.07.06 at 20:00
Jimmy
Do you deny the US involvement in Israel from the very start? Do you deny America's continued involvement in Israel?
That is what was being talked about.
Posted by The Right Reverend Uncle Elvis on 21.07.06 at 01:06
Uncle E,
I do not deny the involvement in Israel but does that mean that we are to blame? Obviously so with the comments on this thread. That is what I AM TALKING about. If there are children dying of starvation in bumfuck anywhere IN THE WORLD...somehow the US will get the blame.
Posted by Jimmy on 21.07.06 at 01:55
Uncle E,
Forgot to tell you...love most of your posts as I have been watching for quite sometime.
Posted by Jimmy on 21.07.06 at 01:58
Bill, JSM & Uncle E,
I posted a comment earlier that was not picked up for whatever reason. But, it went something like this.
What does US children and seniors have to do with the Israeli Terrorism issue? The only thing that I think we get out of our closeness with Israel is a formidable ally in the Mid-East. As for US internal policies..do you honestly think that the govt. fully discloses everything to the general public? Hell NO! My country like BDA leaves the citizens in the dark just like every other govt. in the world. This is what they do and if you doubt me then you are living in la-la-land.
Posted by Jimmy on 21.07.06 at 02:06
Hi Jimmy if you give four billion dollars that you borrow from Japan to supply Israel with Apache helicopters and Hellfire rockets(used three to kill a cripple in a wheel chair) Caterpillar tractors (that crushed Rachel Corrie) and cant look after your own tax paying citizens and leave your borders open to anyone terrorist or not arm Iraq to fight Iran and arm and train the Teleban to fight Russia and the Teleban now train others to fight us plus with all that sophisticated intelligence you finance Israel with how come you never knew there was no WMD in Iraq ?
Time for a reality check Jimmy and I have probably as many American relatives as you have.
Its not America we dislike its the cowboys who make the policy decisions that dont work and bog you down
Your comments about starving children were inapproprite as America spends more on pet food than would feed those children and per capita Ireland gives more money in aid than America plus much aid given is tied to conditions that assist America which of course puts its own interests first.
You have to get out there and get your fellow Americans to vote these cowboys out of office but as only 40% ever vote that must change.
Posted by Bill Cook on 21.07.06 at 06:43
Ground offensive underway in Lebanon.
Posted by Adjustah on 22.07.06 at 15:08
A ground offensive was always required in Lebanon as it always was impossible to neutralise the rocket base any other way.
The more cynical believe that by destroying the entire infrastructure in Lebanon which Israel has now done plus bombing hospitals churches and mosques was an attack on all Arabs and was well thought out before hand plus the tardiness of getting Americans out of Lebanon was because they were of Arab origin and had there been Jews there that they would have speeded up but most likely they would have been warned beforehand.
One should bear in mind that Hezbollah did not fire any rockets until the Israelis blew up Sheik Ahmed Yassin a cripple in a wheel chair with 3 Hellfire rockets at $65000 each fired from an Apache helicopter at $14,000,000 each supplied by the United States.
Yassin was the spiritual leader of Hamas.
Also Hezbollah while a terrorist orginisation also supplied drinking water to half a million Lebonese in tanks and 100,000 depend on the hospitals and health clinics they run hence the support the get.
I think that Ehud Olmert wants to at root corp the West Bank and unless we see them offer to and follow thru by pulling out its just playing games.
The tragedy of this is the huge loss of life by the Lebanese the now 500,000 refugees 350 dead and 20,000 wounded and the destruction of Lebanon that has been permitted by the US in refusing to halt Israel.
It is mirroring the horror of Iraq a total failure a real quagmire of evil and incompetence.
Posted by Bill Cook on 23.07.06 at 12:25
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/5207066.stm
Looks like Isreal wants the u.s. to speed up it's bomb shipments.
Posted by jsm on 23.07.06 at 14:01
One would think that Israel with what is believed to be the 4th largest military force in the world, including a huge nuclear capability inc the Neutron bomb in Dimona, nuclear submarines, fighter jets and long range bombers, tanks and missiles, an large army with the most sophisticated weaponary possible against, a foe that has basically only small arms and largely, by comparison, inefective rockets that what more do they want ?
You can never defeat terrorism with conventional weaponry, but you can slaughter innocent civilians and cause wanton destruction and most importantly terror.
Posted by Bill Cook on 23.07.06 at 15:06
What would you suggest instead Bill?
Posted by observor on 23.07.06 at 18:00
Get the parties together and find an honest broker.
Get to the root cause get, all the information
and get a cessation of violence.
Offer reparation for all destruction and offer to truly have a two state solution with no tricks as it would seem impossible to make progress without a two state solution which would mean as a first step for Israel to get out of land designated for the state of Palestine.
What would YOU suggest ?
Posted by Bill Cook on 23.07.06 at 18:15
Guns for the Jews ....Sneakers for the Arabs ??
This will end in a big one....being dropped on IRAN....soon to come....
Religion....MMMmmm someone should ban this devilish man made nonesense that has caused all the wars....fear and corruption since time dot....
BILL MAHER ...you're my hero
Posted by Tony B on 23.07.06 at 19:00
"One should bear in mind that Hezbollah did not fire any rockets until the Israelis blew up Sheik Ahmed Yassin a cripple in a wheel chair with 3 Hellfire rockets at $65000 each fired from an Apache helicopter at $14,000,000 each supplied by the United States.
Yassin was the spiritual leader of Hamas."
One should also bear in mind that "snippets" of history are dangerous to take at face value.
Bill fails to mention that Yassin was assasinated in March of 2004, but uses it as some sort of starting point for this recent flare up in Lebanon. No history of who Yassin was or how many people he was personally responsible for murdering by sending out young men dressed in bombing outfits etc. Nope...just that the man was crippled and killed while in a wheelchair and that his death is directly responsible for what we see going on now.
Gonzo journalism at its finest.
Posted by ace on 23.07.06 at 20:46
How many innocent bystanders were killed when those 3 Hellfire Rockets were fired ?
Must have been an armored wheel chair
Tune into Faux news !
Posted by Bill Cook on 23.07.06 at 21:03
Hezbollah is at its core a self defence orginsation, however ugly, and its recent operations have been limited largely to this function.
It was formed to expel Israeli troops who mounted an unprovoked invasion of Lebanon in 1982 in order to crush the Palestinian groups operating there . By the time the Israeli forces finally left in 2000 they had killed 17,000 Lebonese citizens and Palestinian refugees .
Since the end of the occupation, Hezbollah had only fired across the border once until Israel began its aerial bombardment last week.
Posted by Bill Cook on 23.07.06 at 21:12
"Since the end of the occupation, Hezbollah had only fired across the border once until Israel began its aerial bombardment last week."
Was this "once" in realiation for Yassin's assasination back in March, 2004 then?
You are stumbling over your own propaganda Bill.
Posted by ace on 23.07.06 at 21:18
That is correct it was then.
Posted by Bill Cook on 23.07.06 at 21:22
I'm all for a cease fire, especially now as this begins to escalate even more with Syria and Iran looking on, but I'm just curious what all the anti-israel posters on here would have them do.
A group that represented in a foreign powers government came across the border illegally, kidnapped Israeli's, and then refused to cooperate in their release. What is the correct response to this? And it seems to go forgotten in the press that Hezbollah quite happily shot untargeted rockets at major Israeli cities with the very intent to kill civilians. Is there a correct response to this? Are Israel supposed to be the 'bigger man' and just suck up the acts of terrorism done to them, or should they use all of their power to try and protect themselves?
Personally I'm a bit torn. On the one hand, Beirut is being torn to shreds and civilians are dying, and of course I'm totally against that. On the other hand is the fact that there is a group, well represented in the Lebanese government, who have a goal of wiping Israel off of the map, and they are not being controlled by the rest of government. As long as this is the case, who is to be held responsible for Hezbollah? No one?
Posted by lost in flatts on 24.07.06 at 07:02
However you look at this, it's a disaster. Not only for the Lebanese and the Palestinians, but for Israel. They're are storing up big problems for themselves in the future.
Firstly for the reasons the Bill aluded to above - i.e., the overwhelming use of military might against a much more weakly armed force. Whatever the rights and wrongs of the Israeli Zionist case, and the Israeli people's perceptions of themselves as a beleaguered people, the rolling out of this long-prepared plan to tackle Hezbollah has created resentments and hatreds which will come back at Israel for years to come.
A bigger problem for them though is that they're fighting the wrong war in the wrong way. This the 5th time since its inception, that Israel has to gone to war, and their fighting this one on their experience. But Hizbollah isn't Egypt or Jordan, it's a state within a state and a 'terrorist' organisation, backed and armed by Syria, and probably covertly by half the Arab states. Israel has jumped onto the US terrorism bandwagon, and is making exactly the same mistakes. You can't have a war against terrorism the way you can Iraq, N Korea, or whereever else. Terrorism's a tactic not a state.
The Israelis aren't going to win this one. Hizbollah and their ilk are increasingly capable of bringing the war inside Israel with ever-more sophisticated weaponry. The cost-benefits ratio of terrorist weaponry grows all the time and that's only going to get worse with tech and biotech advances. Israeli's are aware of this and have spent billions on anti-missile systems. Doesn't look like money well-spent though.
However they look at it, their vast investment in armaments is going to come to mean less and less in security terms, and one way or another, they'll end up at the negotiating table because there will be no other choice except mutual destruction.
And as for the US hand in all of this..... This all suits the present admin perfectly. And at a time when 'end-time' ideas are main-stream America, fundamentalist churches are actively campaigning for war with Iran, the Christian Zionists are fund raising for the Israeli state to create the conditions for the 2nd coming , we all might have a lot more to worry about in the Middle East than even this current piece of evil banality. Let's see what happens after the October US elections.....
Posted by selkieman on 24.07.06 at 07:52
I have to agree with you it is a disaster.
We try to find the END GAME that may explain behaviour.
Terrorism is in my experience the result of an injustice or a perceived injustice and if that injustice is removed so tnen the need for terrorism would go away hopefully.
The Israeli newspaper Ha'aretz has just published a long, authoritive study of Olmert's
motives, drawing on sources very close to the Prime Minister. It reveals that Olmert has an other consideration, of which he does not speak in public.
He wants to set a precedent for the convergence plan in the West Bank to show that Israel will not accept terror beyond the fence after it withdraws.
He knows the deal he plans to impose on the West Bank will be unacceptable to Palestinians. Not just to Islamic Jihad but the vast majority he has been proposing to seize strategically valuable chunks of the west Bank by annexing them to Israel since as long ago as 1978 so he is trying to pre-emptively terrify them now so they will not dare fight back.
That seems the core of all this
As Ze'ev Jabotinsky says " A living people makes enormous concessions .... only when there is no hope left"
In Iraq its all about OIL and in Israel its all about LAND.
Watch it play out.
Posted by Bill Cook on 24.07.06 at 08:58
"..the rolling out of this long-prepared plan to tackle Hezbollah has created resentments and hatreds which will come back at Israel for years to come."
I also agree that it is a disaster, but do bear in mind that this 'long-prepared plan' to tackle Hezbollah certainly coincides with a long-prepared plan by Hezbollah to purchase and store the rockets they are now firing at Israel. Hezbollah did not just suddenly "have" these weapons.
Also, it wasn't Hezbollah firing rockets that started this recent mess...it was the capture of two Israeli soldiers and the killing of 8 others in a Hezbollah raid that got it going.
Hezbollah have used the raiding and capturing (and killing) of Israeli soldiers as a tactic well before Yassin was killed.
Posted by ace on 24.07.06 at 10:32
And along the lines of Ace's comment, why should eliminating hezbollah lead to any more resentment in the Arab world? Surely they can't expect Israel to do nothing. It seems to me the only people who would begrudge Israel for retaliating against a group attacking them would be those already hating Israel, not neutrals who saw this as the turning point.
Posted by lost in flatts on 24.07.06 at 11:26
You're creating a false dichotomy between Isreal "doing nothing" and Isreal "doing something". Of course they have a right to respond to these violent attacks on their populace...but how is criticizing their response as disproportionate "hating Isreal"? What I hate is how this debate is characterized as all-or-nothing.
Posted by d.d on 24.07.06 at 11:46
The hating Israel comment was directed towards Bill's comment on the Israeli response creating future years of hatred towards them. I'm not saying people arguing its a disproportionate response aren't justified, and certainly not they hate Israel.
I agree the whole conflict can't be answered in a yes/no form, but you can debate the question of 'Is Israel's response justified' with a yes/no, and I feel that's what this thread is doing.
My point is simply that their response might be disproportionate if viewed in isolation, but in a greater framework might make a bit more sense. Such as, what message does it send Hezbollah, Hammas and other 'rogue' terrorist cells if they had not gone to the lengths they are going to. Clearly Israel is saying, mess with us even a little and we will try our best to hunt everyone of your organisation down. Is that good? I don't know, but that seems to be their rationale.
Posted by lost in flatts on 24.07.06 at 14:03
lost in flatts: thanks for clearing that up, but I still do think we need to examine *why* some people do hate Isreal passionately, and try to come up with some truly opinion-changing policies. Bombing civilians is a surefire way to piss them off, and that sentiment is certainly exploited by governments (ahem, iran) and terrorist groups everywhere.
I don't know if viewing the response even in the context of previous back-and-forth attacks would make it justifiable. The attacks on civilian infrastructure haven't seemed to stop the provocative rocket attacks on Haifa, which makes you wonder if they're targeting the right places. 320 out of 363 of those killed in Lebanon were civilians (a third of those children). If Isreal were conducting a surgical offensive on Hezbollah, surely the picture would be different?
Sadly, I'm powerless to do anything but condemn the actions of all involved for creating unnecessary human suffering, and wish desperately for peace and common sense.
Posted by d.d on 24.07.06 at 14:39