BIC Members Named

This afternoon the Premier named the members of the Bermuda Independence Commission. They are:

• Bishop Vernon Lambe (chairman), head of the First Church of God
• Dame Lois Browne Evans (advisor), veteran PLP MP
• Phil Perinchief (secretary), Government lawyer
• Bob Steinhoff, former senior partner at KPMG
• Crystal Caesar, senior analyst, Bermuda Monetary Authority
• David Rowntree, chairman of the St. George's Foundation
• Derrick Burgess, PLP MP and president of the BIU
• Diana Kempe, Queen's Counsel, former president of the International Bar Association
• Donna Pearman, president of the People's Pharmacy
• Eddy DeMello, owner of Music Box
• Gary Phillips, former Director of Tourism
• Janet Bradshaw, former Chief Statistician
• Mark Bean, Sandys North PLP by-election candidate
• Michael Winfield, president of Cambridge Beaches, former Minister and Senator
• Rolfe Commissiong, long-time pro-independence activist

The Premier said that the group is on a "fact-finding mission", but then promptly contradicted himself by saying they would "educate and inform the public". He was unable to specify a timeframe when they would report on their findings, but said once their work is complete the Government will produce a Green Paper. "Then the debate really begins," said Mr. Scott.

So how neutral is the BIC likely to be? Well, the members known to have pro-independence views are:

1. Dame Lois Browne Evans
2. Diana Kempe supported independence in 1995
3. Michael Winfield was also a supporter under John Swan
4. Phil Perinchief stood as an independent in the 1998 election on the issue of independence
5. Rolfe Commissiong campaigned alongside Phil Perinchief on the issue
6. Mark Bean spoke in favour of independence in February
7. Gary Phillips is also apparently very pro-PLP and pro-independence

If anyone can clear up where the others stand, please let me know.

Comments

[big bad wolf on 16.12.04 at 18:48]

Fuck them all .....Lets arm and do battle!

[loki on 16.12.04 at 18:49]

Best wolf post ever!!

[Tiger Bay on 16.12.04 at 19:02]

Lack of representation from the international sector which drives our economy. Stacked with PLP insiders. No charter, no time frame. Advised by two rabid proponents of independence (Dame Lois and Comrade Phil).

Far from "fostering national unity", this is likely to be one of the most divisive diversions in recent Bermuda history.

[Morgan's Rum on 16.12.04 at 19:32]

I want an application for a passport to the greater state of Southampton. I had lived there for 15 years in the past. Surely that should count. The rest of Bermuda can go down the tubes with General Scott.

[Happy Pants on 16.12.04 at 19:56]

The UBP has posted their press release here: http://www.ubp.bm/news/releases/20041216001.asp.

They've said nothing new and have left us without representation on this group! They are not the government, and they fail to understand that they cannot dictate how the march towards independence shall go. So why wait and see what happens in this group? Why not particpate and ensure that it is as fair as it could possibly be? They are talking out of both sides of their mouths. This is such a bad decision! Why would they do something so petty and foolish!

[big bad wolf on 16.12.04 at 20:29]

Your application has been accepted on arrival.Presently we are all up at high point trying to be better shots with our rifles.Long Live Southampton...Land of the Green Parrot.

[big bad wolf on 16.12.04 at 20:36]

Happy Pants keep it down in your shorts ...We all know that your Happy in your pants..doesn't matter if you dress right or left. Look the UBP have for once done the right thing..The PLP has already deep sixed the UBP before on Independence....It is no surprise what they have done...I wouldn't have anything to do with BIC either....Heah maybe they could better spend their time planning a bank heist.

[Happy Pants on 16.12.04 at 20:45]

That's just suicide big bad wolf. You are saying that it was smart because it is a very divisive issue for their group. But how does that help us who have to stop independence now? We need all the help we can get to stop this, and the UBP has put their hand in the sand to appear unified! That's not the best thing for the country. That's just plain dishonest. We don't need any shrinking violets at a time like this!

[shipstones on 16.12.04 at 21:00]

The UBP are idiots this time. They castigated PLP for their boycot of Independence referendum! Stupid Stupid Stupid

[big bad wolf on 16.12.04 at 21:04]

Happy its early days...they are watching to see how the strong the wind blows and from which direction. Lets have a nice Xmas then attack...don't worry the wolf will be there running at your side in attack mode

[Happy Pants on 16.12.04 at 21:12]

Early Days? Poppycock! How can you say that? Didn't they say the group will only operate for 6 months? They should have gotten involved. THEY SHOULD BE DIRECTLY INVOLVED ALL THE WAY!!!!!! They should have been playing a lead role, but they have stuck their head in the sand.

I forgot about that shipstones. They are not only grossly irresponsible - they are hypocrites too!!! I'm out there getting names for the petition, and they decide to run away from the battle. What for! I just can't believe this.

[big bad wolf on 16.12.04 at 21:12]

Look all you longtail flag lovers...cool it wait for summer and date a nice American girl! Independence..Ha we have declared it Southamton is a free Country....Parrot Life is in and we squawk all the time...its all down up in Southampton..see ya !!!all you Colonial hicks!

[shipstones on 16.12.04 at 21:19]

How will Bob Steinhoff, David Whitfield and Dianna Kempe think of this. They will be seen as spies reporting back to UBP to take pot shots from afar!!
Stupid Stupid Stupid!!!

[big bad wolf on 16.12.04 at 21:23]

Calm down ships the ballast is badly shifting in our good ship of state. Its early days on a very old issue being brought out of the political closet. My family has been Independent for eight generations. Whats the big deal landing rights or limos and embassies for the brothers?

[Happy Pants on 16.12.04 at 21:35]

Are you are UBP party member bbw? Why are you so confident? Why are you supporting a decision to not participate? Why would ANYONE support a decision not to participate? Can the UBP still so seriously divided on this issue?

[big bad wolf on 16.12.04 at 21:53]

Look just because the PLP want to go down a blind alley does not mean we all have to follow them. Times have changed since the last little UBP dance on Independence. We are now full and equal EEC passport holders if we want to apply for it ,where as before we had our Overseas Dependent Territories British passport that placed us all nicely back in steerage.Micro dot status or Caricom full membership is not as important as being in the EEC through UK.

[Happy Pants on 16.12.04 at 22:25]

I'm with you all the way bbw, which is why it is so irresponsible and hypocritical for them not to participate! If they are now unified on the issue, this only looks more perplexing. I wonder who in UBP is dumb enough to support independence? I could see PLP, but who could cause division in the UBP? THEY SHOULD BE OUT FRONT AND CENTER - NOT DUCKING FOR COVER! They are letting the PLP have their way - for what purpose?

[Fraz on 16.12.04 at 23:44]

Presumably Dame Evans realizes that she will have to surrender her title in the event of Bermuda's independence, right? Unless of course Bermuda plans to continue a peerage system...

[Tiger Bay on 17.12.04 at 07:14]

I am sure that she would do it gladly in return for the new title of Generalissima of the Socialist Repulic of New Caribermuda.

[big bad wolf on 17.12.04 at 08:06]

No I'm not UBP or PLP and the NLP has pretty much folded due to a slow bleed, loss of support- In the New Year I'll see if there is core support for a new political group that works on what is best for Bermuda rather than a narrow party interest.

[ace on 17.12.04 at 08:09]

The UBP isn't running away or trying to get some "payback" for the 1995 boycott. They are just refusing to play PLP distraction games.

Christian Dunleavy has hit the nail on the head in his most recent post "Putting Lipstick on the Pig".

I suggest you all read it.

[Fornicator on 17.12.04 at 09:05]

Bermuda ought to start exporting bullshit. We've got two suppliers with what appears to be endless reserves. I'd say that by 2006 we could end our overdependence on international business.

[jake on 17.12.04 at 10:34]

The UBP's cowardice on this issue can no longer be denied. Not only have they refused to take a position, they have also refused to join the mechanism for debating it. It what must be seen as the most cheap and low brow political soundbite they say they have no one to spare because they have too much to work on with the countries problems. Really?

Then we have Christian Dunleavy writing as fast as he can the reasons to justify this empty stance. I encourage you to read it too, only unlike ace I have a different take on it. He says so much because he is over egging the pudding. Me'thinks the writer doth protest too much.

No. This is an abdication of responsibility and I encourage each of you to give them true stick over it. I am against the Premier's move, and it would be helpful if the only political alternative to the independence machine decided to work and do their job on this issue.

Now you see them for who they are. The old UBP members - as bad as they were - at least had the strength of character to play a part. This current bunch are window dressing with nothing for sale.

[clydesdale on 17.12.04 at 11:35]

Sorry Jake,
I do not see this as an abdication of responsibility. The UBP said that they are keeping their responsibility on the more pressing issues that concern Bermudians rather than spend any time on an issue that only a small percentage of the popluation want. Most of them want it for the wrong reasons. Alex "the man" Scott even said in the Royal Gazette, that the BIC is going to EDUCATE Bermudians on sovereignty. Not debate it, not discuss it, but educate us. That sounds pretty pro-independence to me. I feel by not joining the Commission, the UBP does take a stance on the issue, that they don't want independence, to talk about it, to debate it, it is a non-issue to them. But I am sure that issue will forever be debated. Regardless, I think the UBP has done the right thing in saying that there are more important matters than Independence.

[Fornicator on 17.12.04 at 11:35]

This is a party so obsessed with winning the next election that it can't see the folly of its long term vision. The PLP is marching to independence whether they like it or not, and at a time that we need balance to the process they have gone on the defensive.

Dunleavy's post is pretty delusional. If his post really is the current thinking in the party, then we should be more worried than we realise. The PLP's declining popularity has little to do with UBP pressure and much to do with plain old PLP mismanagement and vacuous leadership. Renee did far more damage (and potentially good) than the UBP could dream of taking credit for, but the simple fact is that the PLP is screwing up. Alex is weak, dishonest and incomepetent - no one needed the UBP to point it out.

Here was a chance for the UBP to do what we are paying them for - yes, the Opposition collects a salary too - but they have taken the politically convenient option of hiding in the bushes to throw eggs. Arrogance, idiocy, cowardice and incompentence, squared.

[jake on 17.12.04 at 11:44]

Clydesdale,

That might be the position if the PLP were in Opposition. That little thing called the Government is in their hands.

What exactly are they doing? Putting together shadow ministries with no budget, and working on issues with no manner of implementation.

If you honestly think that Alex Scott has not succeeded in making this an issue - even though I would agree the people have not called for it - then you are as mistaken as they are.

The issue is here and now we have to deal with it. Please send a memo to Grant: pull your head out of the sand; you have a job to do.

[clydesdale on 17.12.04 at 11:59]

Fair enough Jake,
I think that maybe it is a little to early to see how the UBP will deal with it. I guess we dont know what they are doing, they might have some plan or might not (hopefully this is not the case.It will either help them or embarass them But I dont think that them not joining the BIC is that big of an issue and they are still in a better position of debating the findings of the BIC.
The PLP should be putting together committees and commisions to solve the islands biggest problems. You are right Alex Scott has made an issue about Independence, but he should be making an issue out of other, more important things. The PLP is stretching themselves too thin on too many topics. You are right though, the UBP are not doing as much damage as the PLP are doing to themselves. But want can you do, two poliitcal partties out for themselves mostly. We need more independants to run.

[replicator on 17.12.04 at 12:05]

Well done Jake and Fornicator. You've articulated why your party spent 30 years in opposition.

They thought reacting to the Government was their job not articulating their own plan.

[big bad wolf on 17.12.04 at 12:07]

I agree with the Done Deal over at Bermuda Politics .com---Even if he is blindly UBP...he is not always wrong. I do not think the PLP have done anything to unify the country...so I guess BIC an Independence is an attempt to really divide us...Notice too no NLP or past NLP members approached re BIC even though we were the party that forced the first referrendum on Independence.Maybe all the PLP leadership should wear lipstick along with the pig.

[Fornicator on 17.12.04 at 12:14]

Independence has the potential to become the island's biggest issue purely if the PLP chooses to make it so. The UBP has enough intelligence to understand that, as do the referendum pettition pushing supporters.

Why else would they be pushing the petition long before any national discussions take place? Because it's not a big issue or because it IS a big issue? I think the latter, unless we are all going to just sit here and lie through our teeth.

These same people aren't out with petitions on public education, housing, tourism, etc. Why not, if all these other issues are far more pressing (Perhaps that could be the subject of a future column on this website). So if independence is important enough to demand a petition and a call to Whitehall, then the UBP should have been on that commission. You can't have it both ways - either it's a critical concern or it's not. The UBP has to deal with whatever the government throws at them, and they clearly dropped the ball.

[Fornicator on 17.12.04 at 12:23]

"Well done Jake and Fornicator. You've articulated why your party spent 30 years in opposition.

They thought reacting to the Government was their job not articulating their own plan."

Yet another weak excuse. The position that the UBP could not keep firing on the other issues and participate in the BIC at the same time is absolute rubbish. If they want my vote, they need to demonstrate that they can actually keep the eye on the ball while also dealing with the things that are beyond their control.

And because you raised it, don't oversimplify the reasons why the PLP was in Opposition for so long. Despite the PLP's own shortcommings, the UBP and its cronies did more than enough to ensure PLP failure at the polls. Your ignorance of this explains why black and white Bermudians still have such a hard time getting along with one another - a profound lack of honesty.

[replicator on 17.12.04 at 12:33]

I do believe petitions have been raining in on housing (anchorage rd, mary victoria), St David's mini-buses, St. Geo prep etc.. This might be the most petitioned government yet. Care to try again.

The UBP doesn't have to 'deal with whatever the government throws at them'. They can chose to respond or not. That's the whole point. If they are reactionary then they can never define themselves and just oppose. Isn't that what you guys are always shitting on them for.

Come on, this isn't that hard.

[replicator on 17.12.04 at 12:36]

I know, it's all the UBP's fault that the PLP couldn't win for 30 years and got less than 10 seats in the 80s after getting in an internal pissing match.

[hester fan on 17.12.04 at 12:38]

just for clarification, you've got phil perinchief listed as a BIC member - he's not actually a MEMBER, he's just their liaison with government. no voting/decision-making power, just a research and administrative tool.
at least, that's what the man said.

[The Limey on 17.12.04 at 12:50]

On the news last night they said that Phil Perinchief was to be the group's secretary. That's why I included him in the list. But according to today's Gazette, "[he] will remain as a liaison between the Commission and Government - but will have no part in the decision-making process, the Premier said".

Whether you consider him part of the BIC or not is less important than the fact that he's been seconded to the Central Policy Unit and will therefore have much more influence over Government than the BIC itself.

[Fornicator on 17.12.04 at 13:40]

"I do believe petitions have been raining in on housing (anchorage rd, mary victoria), St David's mini-buses, St. Geo prep etc.. This might be the most petitioned government yet. Care to try again."

Can we at least start by being honest with one another? Can we? The referendum petition and actions you mentioned aren't even remotely in the same league, and are most likely a completely different set of people. I'm sure you know this. My statement was that those who are petitioning for a referendum are not petitioning for the same issues that they say are far more important than independence. I'm sure you understood that too. Hence, to point to Mary Victoria Road as a counterargument is just plain dishonest. Where is "the sky is falling" petition on public education reform? Where are the pro referendum people when it comes to things like that?

As for the UBP not having to respond to whatever the Government does, you are right. But consciously choosing not to respond is in fact a form of dealing with what has been thrown in front of them. Their choice is an irresponsible one borne out internal division and a shortsighted lust for power.

"I know, it's all the UBP's fault that the PLP couldn't win for 30 years and got less than 10 seats in the 80s after getting in an internal pissing match."

Once again, can we have some honesty here? I wrote, "Despite the PLP's own shortcommings, the UBP and its cronies did more than enough to ensure PLP failure at the polls." In no way does that quote say that it is all the UBP's fault. I have simply pointed out that your claim that the PLP never got into power in 30 years due to being reactionary to the UBP's policies is factually false, ignorant and dishonest. To broadly dismiss the civil rights era, as per your comment, is to disrespect those who lived under a system that sought to deny democratic equality as best it could. Don't tell me that the UBP really is a racially diverse party if this is the kind of thinking that comes from its supporters.

Whether the BIC it is a charade or not, and whether Independence is a smokescreen or not, failing to provide representation only allows for less balance in the proceedings. Only one person was asked for participation, and that didn't even have to be an MP. It could have been any party officer or branch leader. It could have been any UBP rep that could be a competent participant in the group. To say that the UBP is in a better position to comment on the proceedings by not participating is a clear demonstration that the PLP and its supporters do not have exlusive rights to bullshit. It would appear that Alex Scott is perparing to weave this into the next election and the UBP's response is, "Eh, we're too busy working on the other more important stuff."

Riiiiight.

[clydesdale on 17.12.04 at 14:10]

I do agree with you on the petition thing, but I would not say they are not in the same league. Everyone is passionate about issues in different ways.

Is it really an important issue if only 20% of the population wants it or is interested in it?
I bet over 70% of the population want affordable housing?

The BIC is to "EDUCATE" the public on being a sovereign nation, that is not objective, that seems like they are taking one side of the issue. By particiapting in it, they would be saying they support it. What does it matter if they are on the commission or not? The commission is going to report its findings to the cabinet first, not the people of Bermuda, so that makes the proceedings unbalanced anyway. We have thousands of voices against Independence and Alex Scott has not listened. Thousands of people complained against the BHC and Berkley issues and that fell on deaf ears. A bunch of seniors marched on the house and Alex Scott did not come and even entertain them. So how is one person on the BIC going to make a difference with this government?

[Martin on 17.12.04 at 14:30]

Not wishing to upset Fraz....BUT....they retain their rights to titles once granted.

Yes I know - the hypocrisy is appaling but there you have it.

If you want a copy of the email I received from the UK Government on this - let me know.

[replicator on 17.12.04 at 15:30]

The UBP saying that they aren't don't see independence as a priority and want to focus on critical social issues is "a shortsighted lust for power".

Thanks for that. My whole office has been laughing about that one for an hour and I had to regain my composure before typing this.

You're such a joke, I'm not wasting another keypress on you.

[Fornicator on 17.12.04 at 16:10]

Clydes,

You are confusing the popularity/support of for going independence with the magnitude of the possible threat that it presents to the future of our country. If we are so serious about not going independent, or ensuring that the most democratic process is used to decide it, then logically we should be doing everything we can to influence the outcome.

Getting hopped up about it so much that we have already started a petition and then supporting the UBP's BIC move is like running out to buy plywood for a 140mph hurricane (that you've been warned about) and then deciding NOT to block up your windows because you have other "more important" things to do.

If you look at the various faces and backgrounds on the BIC members it is clear that their role is not merely to educate the public. The PR has already said that they will be providing a report to the Government after having taken submissions from the public. It is not a rigorous process, but it certainly isn't pro independence. If the aim is to set up a completely biased group, then why would the Government invite anyone who wasn't entirely loyal to the PLP and independence? Phil Perinchief was a poor choice for liason, but when you really break it down, you don't run a successful magic show by inviting the audience back stage.

[Fornicator on 17.12.04 at 16:46]

"Thanks for that. My whole office has been laughing about that one for an hour and I had to regain my composure before typing this.

You're such a joke, I'm not wasting another keypress on you."

Oh that's just wonderful. Really, I'm shocked. You incessantly trot out the UBP's party line at every opportunity - expecting a sliver of objectivity from you is like expecting the PLP to be proponent of a referendum.

Next time try being a little more original. The safe bet its that most people in your office have no clue about the dynamics of what Graeme wrote yesterday. The UBP doesn't want to touch independence, and it's not primarily for the lame reasons they've stated. They want to win the next election real bad, and appearing united is absolutely critical. Thus they will seek to avoid a party fracture even if it means pretending like the PLP isn't as dead serious as they are. The sad thing is that we pay a price for it. They have reduced the objectivity of the group by not participating.

"Heah all your memories are short the PLP boycotted the UBP referendum so now its pay back time.Anyway the UBP practically split apart over the Independence issue and it finished off Sir John Swan's leadership of the then UBP Government. Remember in fight club when the guy puts the gun to his head and fires to kill off his other ego ..well the UBP has already pulled the trigger once...They don't have voices talking in their heads anymore."

[clydesdale on 17.12.04 at 17:13]

Jake,
"You are confusing the popularity/support of for going independence with the magnitude of the possible threat that it presents to the future of our country. If we are so serious about not going independent, or ensuring that the most democratic process is used to decide it, then logically we should be doing everything we can to influence the outcome"

I thought that was what the petition and the polls were for. A little to premature to protest in the street. I still think a member of the UBP on the commission would have amounted to little. Yes you think they should go and try to have an influence, but look at the hardliners in the group. Rolfe, Derrik, Lois and Philip, come on seriously.

"Getting hopped up about it so much that we have already started a petition and then supporting the UBP's BIC move is like running out to buy plywood for a 140mph hurricane (that you've been warned about) and then deciding NOT to block up your windows because you have other "more important" things to do."

The hurricane is only a topical storm right now and is not forecast to get us yet. The BIC are the forecasters and it wont be until they have made there findings from the public (as you suggest they are going to do) then we will find out if it strengthens to a HURRICANE and comes for a direct hit or just disolves in the Atlantic. Then I will decide to get my plywood or not, but right now I do have more important issues then a hurricane churning haplessly out in the Atlantic.

A lot of people have tried to shoot this issue down over and over and over again, but the premier has kept bringing it up and telling us (the public) that we don't know all the issues and he thinks that once we know them all we will all have a sudden miraculous apifany and see his way is the right way (remember he is the man).

I know this is a scary and important issue that can be a life changing event, but is it an important issue right now? Some people think it is, but others think there are more important issues at hand.
Do we try and kill the bluff or wait to see if the bluff is real? What more can you do to an idea? Independence is important, but is a down the road "possible" future for Bermuda, it is not a DEFINATE future for Bermuda. But issues like housing and corruption that are here now!!

The governement invited a cross section of the community, I agree with that. But if what Phil's suggests is correct, then the majority of them are known to be in favour or had been in favour of independence. Add that to the PLP pro-indepence members and they are already slanted towards one view. The question will be if this group takes what the public says seriously and honestly reports it back to the premier. As long as this commission does not try and influence the public in any way. We know how passionate Derrik and Rolfe can be.

[clydesdale on 17.12.04 at 17:15]

Sorry above post should have been directed at fornicator!!! Sorry Jake!!

[replicator on 17.12.04 at 17:17]

Ohh, I'll break my rule and waste a few more keystrokes because it gets better.

"They want to win the next election real bad ... "

No shit? And I thought all along we thought they were trying to lose. Losing is so much fun.

The whole place is roaring again. We cracked open the beers seeing as you've brought the whole place to a halt with your pearls of wisdom.

Happy hour.

[jake on 17.12.04 at 18:25]

Since you responded to me, notwithstanding me not making those comments I will weigh in.

I am not saying there are not more important issues to tackle. I agree that there are. My point is that there is the issue of independence on the table now - the UBP have no control over what the PLP bring to the fore. Now that it is on the table they have an obligation to deal with it. Their position is not based on strategy or efficacy - it is based on weakness.

Today's UBP is weak minded and poorly led. It is no wonder they lost the last two elections and are likely to lose the next, which is why no one against independence wants it decided by election. The assumption is a PLP victory with or without the independence issue.

Now we transparently see why. Ordinarily I would trumpet their electoral stupidity. Long live Grant I say. But we need someone to do the right thing on independence. If the Government has gone wrong - who else than the opposition.

You are afraid to detour from the UBP yellow brick road. I am afraid that the Wizard has little to offer you, however. We have just seen that.

[big bad wolf on 17.12.04 at 20:33]

Look dream boat...now that the shoe is on the other foot you have to wear it.Keep on beating a dead horse the UBP are not going to follow you neither is the majority of Bermuda.The UBP have moved the Queen,"Check Mate the PLP have lost the game!"

[Fraz on 17.12.04 at 21:19]

Martin:
I'm not sure what bothers me more: the fact that you can keep your peerage even after giving the figurative finger to the Royals, or the fact that you've actually written to HM Government to find out what happens... ;-)

Thanks for the clarification though - I suppose life is life after all.

[shipstones on 17.12.04 at 21:27]

The UBP castigated PLP for not taking part in previous Independence discussion.

What has changed UBP's mind to change to same tactics?

UBP are in opposition. They must oppose if they disagree with independence within BIC.

They may satisfy hardliners but crossover voters will think these guys don't want to really participate in politics any differently than PLP.

Just at a time when people were beginning to see PLP as old UBP but worse.

This is a bipartisan issue brought up by the elected government. Deal with it UBP!

Act in a bipartisan way and help once again to gather the facts and put this matter to rest.

Saying this is not an important issue is missing the point. It is now the biggest issue as PLP government has made it such. They have the power not UBP. UBP is not in power.

Wake Up! Its not a dream or a nightmare its really happening. PLP want to take Bermuda to Independence. Abdicating your participation is not the way to go!!

[big bad wolf on 17.12.04 at 21:39]

If the political corpse of Independence is dug up it does not mean we have to go look at the bones.

[Happy Pants on 17.12.04 at 23:23]

This is sucha bad decision by the UBP.

[Martin on 18.12.04 at 09:53]

Fraz...under normal circumstances, you would be right to be concerned about me writing. On this one, however, the whole thing makes me want to throw up, so I decided to check the facts.

Thanks for your concern though.

Martin MBE, OBE, etc

[Martin on 18.12.04 at 14:40]

For those interested in democracy, registered voters can sign the PETITION for REFERENDUM at one of the following:

HAMILTON: DOWN-TO-EARTH Health shop (near The Music Box) 56 Reid St

HAMILTON: OTTO WURZ, (opposite Bank of Bermuda), Front St

HAMILTON: PULP & CIRCUMSTANCE GIFTS, corner Reid and Queen St

HAMILTON: MAILBOXES UNLIMITED, Par la Ville Road South

HAMILTON: MAILBOXES UNLIMITED (opposite City Hall), Church St

HAMILTON: GREAT THINGS, East Broadway

PAGET: MAILBOXES UNLIMITED, Lovers Lane

PAGET: ABERFELDY NURSERIES, Pomander Rd

PAGET: THE PARAQUET RESTAURANT & TAKE OUT, South Shore Rd

WARWICK: THE VARIETY STORE, The Butterfield Building, Camp Hill Rd

SOUTHAMPTON: SOUSA'S GARDENS, Corner Camp Hill Rd and Middle Rd

SOMERSET: SOMERSET COUNTRY SQUIRE, Mangrove Bay

DOCKYARD: FROG & ONION PUB

DEVONSHIRE: ESSO COLLECTOR'S HILL TIGERMART, Collector's Hill

SMITHS: TERCEIRA'S SHELL SERVICE STATION, North Shore Rd

ST GEORGE'S: ST GEORGE'S ESSO SERVICE STATION

ST DAVID'S: BLACK HORSE TAVERN BAR & RESTAURANT

[shipstones on 19.12.04 at 13:00]

Martin,
May I ask you, why do you think people who want Independence, want Independence?

[clydesdale on 20.12.04 at 01:06]

Have a look at Christian's post on Dec. 15th
about Phil Perinchief.

http://www.politics.bm/archives/2004/12/15_000476.html

If it is true, then will we ever have an objective look into the pros and cons of independence?

What do you think comrades?

[clydesdale on 20.12.04 at 01:13]

Here is another interesting article posted in 1999 by the Bermuds Sun to do with independence.

http://www.bermudasun.org/issues/nov19_99/bermudanews.html

If you cannot get to the article let me know?

[Fornicator on 20.12.04 at 10:32]

Clydes,

For me, Alex Scott's choice of Phil Perinchief is all I need to savour his potential resignation/replacement. We've got:

* Compulsive lying at Works and Engineering,
* The attacks on ProActive
* "I'm The Man,"
* "Aggrandising the social agenda,"
* "No leadership on housing and public education"

Basically he sets no standards for anyone to follow. No one is perfect, but I can't think of a single thing to respect Alex Scott for.

Part of me wonders if he thinks choosing Phil Perinchief is a shrewed move to placate the independence hardliners. But even if that was the case, seeking to please that group at the expense of pissing off the larger electoral base is remarkably ignorant.

The hardliners are the only ones screaming for independence - while they forced the issue to be addressed, it still demands objectivity, intelligence and a proper place. Scott has failed on all three counts, and one can only hope that the BIC members will be able to redeem their own credibility.

It remains to be seen how much impact Phil Perinchief will have on the BIC's report, but the perception created by his involvement is all that is needed to get this process off on the wrong foot.

[Tiger Bay on 20.12.04 at 11:11]

Bishop Lambe is pastor of the first Church of God, which held a "Nation Changing" revival a few weeks ago.

Ironic, no?

According to the weekend papers, the guest evangelist at that event, Eddie Long, is active in anti-gay marriage protests in the States (and may be a bit of a fundamentalist nutter too, the article implies).

A major black gay rights group agrees: "If Long's church doesn't support same-sex marriage, that's fine ... but when the church tries to tell the government it should discriminate in its laws, that's wrong."

[shipstones on 20.12.04 at 13:11]

I was wanting to see if there was any empathy at all towards people who think independence is a good thing. Obviously not.

[John on 20.12.04 at 14:41]

I am perfectly willing to consider independence if someone can present me with cogent facts in favour in order to evaluate. So far all I have seen/heard are the points against and the pro-lobby arguing against them. Other than touchy feely/feel good about ouselves mumbo-jumbo I have yet to see a well reasoned argument for independence.

[Tiger Bay on 20.12.04 at 15:03]

Your desire for empathy is similar to the reasons given for independence: emotional.

Most Bermudians oppose independence for practical reasons ... we want to know how it will improve our lives.

We distrust that the current Government, which has presided over a dramatic slip in standards locally, can pull it off without damaging our business, our lifestyle, and our future prospects.

[shipstones on 20.12.04 at 16:08]

Tiger,
You reiterate your own point of view and not those who are for Independence. Until you understand what they want, how can you categorically say that independence is a bad thing.
My understanding is that black Bermudians were enslaved and unable to have any rights that a human being should expect. When slavery was abolished there was virtual aparthied.
All with the blessing and rule of the British (which I am). Today the British still have final rule over Bermuda. Your a colony!

My view is that some black Bermudians feel so strongly about this that the practical matters are of no concern.

I understand it but don't agree with it.

But it enables me not to call those people as purely emotional. It is a matter of principal to them. The right thing to do!

[Fornicator on 20.12.04 at 16:56]

Shipstones,

I have a single significant reason to support independence: On principle I do not at all believe in the Monarchy (or any Monarchy). To be perfectly frank, I am disgusted by the reverence given to someone just because they were born into a family. Basically, I believe in equality, and it doesn't get any more unequal than a Monarchy.

In broader terms, as a black person it infuriates me that one Royal in particular(Duke of Ed) can't stop himself from uttering asinine, bigoted comments. And, it also bothers me that many Bermudians believe that Royal's are actually of greater value than themselves. To take it to the extreme, I am disgusted that there are some Bermudians who think that they need the British to protect themselves from people who look like me. ...And, I'm disgusted by those colonial-minded expats and Bermudians who actually think that Bermuda is intellectually dependent on England for our survival. Whew!

I have no fear about our economy. Personally I think that the fear expressed on that angle is overzealous and stands to do more damage to the economy than independence itself! I think there are potentially great social benefits that can arise out of independence, but we could enhance things like national pride now if we really want to.

Overall I support the connections to a superpower, and I think that British passports are a MAJOR benefit to us. My own sense of self worth is not determined by colonial thinking, and I will be raising my kids to respect themselves no more or less than anyone else. Dependence is firstly a state of mind, and we can be just as colonial as we ever were the day after we fly our own flag. In an nutshell, no one has provided me with good enough reason to give up our connection to a superpower and free access to the EU. Until that happens I'll be voting against independence.

[Tiger Bay on 20.12.04 at 17:14]

You Brits have had too much guilt pounded into you. Bermuda was not a subjugated territory - it was populated from England. Yes we had slavery, but most of our population (black AND white) are more recent immigrants.

Bermuda is not a major country with natural resources to fund a wasteful or unprepared independence. We are the size of a town and would be one of the smallest countries in the world.

You are suggesting that we shake up the entire foundations of our culture and our economy based on EMOTION? Sorry - the quality of our government is already being eroded because decisions are being made based upon similar emotions instead of public good or responsible management. Most of us here don't want emotion to be the basis of our entire country.

People who expect that independence will lead to national unity or healing of slavery will surely wake up disappointed.

Bermuda is a middle class country. We want stability, not Alex Scott doing his fuckin Selassie imitation.

[big bad wolf on 20.12.04 at 17:30]

No worries just yet about the "I" word. Lets have a great Bermudian Xmas and go dancing with the Gombeys..Ive got a little football to deal with up at SCC. My team is in a little Xmas know out cup...Little worried we score goals but we seem to let more in. Perfect for an agressive wolf to play a little footie. This wolf is strong on the far post in the air....Been great hearing about Bermuda's problems...How many of you want to move to my new country of Southampton...remember you have to swear allegence to the parrot and I mean swear as our parrot used to hang out with the Skull and Bones set...He said something about a dram of rum and Morgan,if you can figure that out...My turn to flip a bird...see Ya later Merry Wolf ^..^

[shipstones on 20.12.04 at 20:55]

Tiger,
The black immigrants. Where did they come from? Where they perhaps the ancestors of slaves themselves? Where they from the Caribean or US where they were treated even worse than in Bermuda.
Principal is not based upon emotion, it is based upon sound knowledge. Nobody taught me guilt. I know guilt when I see it. The British were guilty! That includes white Bermudians too! Sorry! You cannot change history and the evidence is everywhere! So don't talk about emotion.
Then you just go back to what you think. You cannot stop and think what others think. Pricipal is not emotion. Some peoples principals are different to others.

Fornicator,
The queen is a mere symbol of Britain. She does a job and gets paid far too much for doing it. If thats what you are basing the only reason to go indendant, that is emotional!
But I'm not for independence either. I just want to understand people that are.

[Window Dressing? on 20.12.04 at 21:14]

Shipstones,

The basis of that symbol is that the Queen and her heirs are by birth of greater worth. When I'm asked to say, "God Save The Queen," or when a police escort tells me to stop and pull over to allow Royalty to pass, we are not talking about something trivial. Her heirs and relatives are treated better than me in my own country, at my expense, purely because they carry her blood. If you think there is nothing wrong with that, then so be it. It is not purely emotional - it is fact that they gain more respect purely because of their blue blood and not because of any specific deed. I believe in a meritocratic and egalitarian society - not a Monarchy.

[shipstones on 20.12.04 at 21:27]

I will restate what I said "The Queen is merely a symbol of Britain". Note: merely, meaning she has no powers, no political power etc. etc.
As for your comments that she is treated better than you in your own country is because she is that symbol of Britain. The country that rules Bermuda! You cannot focus on the person or family, it is the Monarchy and represent Britain. So your loathing is for Britain. Even if she were elected to be the symbol of Britain I doubt that you would have a different view. Otherwise if UK did away with Monarchy you would have no reason to go Independant.
Good luck in finding your egalitarian paradise.

[Window Dressing? on 20.12.04 at 21:37]

"Even if she were elected to be the symbol of Britain I doubt that you would have a different view. Otherwise if UK did away with Monarchy you would have no reason to go Independant."

I never said this was a reason for going independent. I'm against independence! I simply argued that it's not merely symbolic and emotional. What are you going on about?

[J Galt on 20.12.04 at 21:50]

Window

Does your belief in a meriocratic society extend to birth? I mean do you think a person born in Bermuda or who carrys the blood of a bermudian should automatically be granted citizenship,by default of their birth, or should we all have to earn it?

Shipstone,

Why do you feel guilty for slavery? Because your white? Do you feel guilty for the holocaust? The germans are white, your white so you are guilty? How about the Rodney King beating? The officers where white, your white so are you guilty? How about the women Ted Bundy killed, he's white, your white so your guilty?

I'm just not following your logic on the guilt of slavery, can you explain it please.

[big bad wolf on 20.12.04 at 22:32]

Look Guys when was the last time you went up to Government House for tea on the Queens Birthday...I think you see more pictures of the PLP cabinet around then pictures of Betty Windsor.The UK plays very little role in Bermuda's political affairs. Its down to landing rights and our Primier pulling up to his plane by limo....Lets take a Xmas break...and come back to this mess refreshed by our experiences with family! Ha Moons getting big again..Oh Boy!

[shipstones on 20.12.04 at 22:32]

Window Dressing
I don't think you are trying too hard to understand. My comments were mainly addressed to Fornicator who brought up the subject of the queen as a reason to go independant, you elaborated along the same lines.
I merely threw in the last line as a comment on your choice of society!!!

Galt
I said the British were guilty (I am British) I did not mention white nor did I intend to! Why do you try and twist people's words?
I do not feel responsible for those who commit atrocities, but I am prepared to admit that the British of that time were responsible for slavery and apartheid.
If your parents or grand parents or great grand parents had been slaves, would you want to be ruled by their masters lineage?

[replicator on 20.12.04 at 22:47]

Who's ruling who here? The UK would love to be rid of us. But we're in control and making them hold onto us, because it serves our purposes.

The tables turned a long time ago, we're in control, not Queenie or Blair.

We're inherently pragmatic and balance the heart and head well. That has shown through in a few comments in this thread showing a healthy distaste for the UK but a recognition that times have changed and we're the beneficiary of the relationship.

That's why the Premier's hopes will be dashed.

[Fornicator on 21.12.04 at 09:14]

"Fornicator,

The queen is a mere symbol of Britain. She does a job and gets paid far too much for doing it. If thats what you are basing the only reason to go indendant, that is emotional!"

Shipstones,

I grow up in a society where I'm told from birth that I am of lesser value than those carrying Royal Blood. Despite their acts, especially the bigoted acts, I am required to pay them respect under a Monarchy. This belief is reinforced in multiple ways in this society - The painting at the airport, DoE award, national oaths, printing of money, singing God Save the Queen. The most glaring example of this is that the Governor is an appointed representative of the Queen - not an elected official of this country, and provides no representation for Bermudians in the HoC (not that I want all of that). All of these are real tangible facts and I find it unacceptable.

I personally do not loathe the Brits - I loathe their choice to retain the Monarchy, just like I loathe America's choice to re-elect Bush. As I originally stated, I have a single reason to go independent, but that reason is not enough in the face of connections to a superpower and EU passports. Obviously if they took away the Monarchy I'd have zero reasons to go independent - your powers of deduction are amazing!

[John on 21.12.04 at 11:18]

The turn that this discussion has taken regarding independence being connected to losing the Queen as head of state is an interesting one. I had assumed, perhaps wrongly, that if we gain independence it would be along the same lines as Canada, Australia and other Commonwealth countries that have retained the Queen as head of state, notwithstanding that she holds no power or political influence. Is this not what we are talking about or are we to declare ourselves a republic upon cutting what minimal ties (regarding self governence) that remain?

[Fornicator on 21.12.04 at 11:44]

This is one of the gaping questions that I have for the PLP. We are already 99% self governing. The other 1% is the ascent of bills to the Governor and the respect accorded to the Royal Family. I'm not even be prepared to discuss independence if we are to retain the Queen as Head of State. We have far more important things to do in the first place - retaining the Queen would only make this exercise that much more worthless.

[shipstones on 21.12.04 at 15:45]

Fornicator,
With all due respect, your views are well taken, but my opinion is that a symbolic monarchy is not at the top of my list and as you say is not at the top of yours. There are bigger reasons to stay a colony for the time being.

My question was what do people think who want independence above all else and I gave what I think is there answer, or the one that I hear from those people.I don't think that 99% of the people who want independence is because of the queen.

It's history and its deep rooted in slavery and apartheid.

[big bad wolf on 21.12.04 at 18:40]

Lets compromise associated statehood and remain inside the EEC plus go for full Caricom status?

[J Galt on 21.12.04 at 18:55]

"If your parents or grand parents or great grand parents had been slaves, would you want to be ruled by their masters lineage?"

Bermuda was settled by the English, if it wasn't for the English, none of us would be here today.

You are way to hung up on this guilt thing, you don't feel guilty because your white, you feel guily because your British, what the difference really?? if your great grand father was thief and he stole another's man food, your going to feel guilt towards that mans great grand children? Of course not, your going to say sorry to them? For what? You didn't steal anything, and they didn't have anything stolen from them.

[jake on 21.12.04 at 19:12]

Galt,

There are legacy issues that exist to this day which stem from our history of slavery. I don't ask you to feel guilty - I ask our society to be sure to remove the legacy of inequality that we carry. As an individual you may feel no responsibility for the past. As a part of the community you live with both its good and bad remnants. The bad is discrimination and economic disparity. The good is nepotism and economic privilege (from the point of view of the recipient). If from an institutional viewpoint you fall into one of those categories then it is very much an issue for you today. That is why we have so clear a division in our society today.

Whether you personally feel guilty or not does not interest me at all.

[big bad wolf on 21.12.04 at 20:35]

In my reality man's inhumanity to man is an equal oppurtunity employer across race gender and colour.We all have done or did or about to do to each other.The rainbow of humanity is not exempt and the price is shared as widely as we live on the planet.

[jake on 21.12.04 at 20:46]

Perhaps we should hold hands and sing kumbaya?

Don't try to mask the history of Bermuda in the history of the world. It is both insulting and insensitive. We are talking about the impact of the legacy of slavery on our society, not Rwanda or the Holocaust.

By the way, whoever made the comment that slavery was not as bad in Bermuda as it was in other places misunderstands slavery and lies about its history. It was equally as brutal and inhumane. Children sold from parents. Women abused sexually. Men beaten, whipped and killed. Institutional inhumanity.

When our historical experience is trivialized it perpetuates the crime.

[big bad wolf on 21.12.04 at 21:12]

I think just as many bad things have happened to other people and races besides yours. Cant reason with you as you have your telephoto on for only one colour and that is black....the visible spectrum is much wider...but you seem held in the grip of the past---I suggest a book for you that I think you will find very interesting..."The Known World" by Edward P Jones. Its a brillant book. If its important to you Mr.Jones is black and his book has won the Pulitzer prize of literature. ^..^ Black Wolf

[jake on 21.12.04 at 21:42]

I am focused on the Bermudian history because we are talking about independence for Bermuda. Unless Mr. Jones has some insight for us on the Bermudian condition, his work, while worthy, does not assist in this discussion.

Your approach asks us to suspend our look at what happened on the island and to embrace all injustice everywhere. On the surface that seems right. All injustice should be condemned.

The quesition remains, however, how does that help us to address our issues as a society, when they are lost in the myriad of pain perpetuated from the beginning of time, until moments ago?

Your approach, in practice, achieves nothing, as we ignore the plank in our eyes and look to the splinter in our brothers. As long as you cannot accept our past and its relevance to our society at present, we - both you and I - will go nowhere.

[big bad wolf on 21.12.04 at 23:08]

I sort of live in the moment and while you want to take me down another road I wont go as I myself am not a part of that past.I think I'm trying to say is that the human experience is difficult and while we constantly run to places that divide us the achievements usually flow from that same perplexing place our humanity.

[Fornicator on 22.12.04 at 07:40]

Graeme,

Whether you mean it or not, you are basically saying that anyone who is impacted by the legacy of racism should just get over it, because everyone else has been oppressed during some time throughout the millenia. I agree that having perspective does help, and that there are a lot of people who are overburdened with the past. But I also believe that this line of thinking is used as a "get out of jail free card" by those who are direct beneficiaries of that legacy in order to avoid taking any kind of responsibility for re-balancing in the present.

If I stole your bike or car this week and give it to my son, should you have any claim to what is arguably now my son's property? If my son said to you, "Get over it, Graeme, people have been stealing for centuries," would that make you feel any better for the loss of your property?

[J Galt on 22.12.04 at 08:18]

Come on Fornicator

What type of example is that?? Perhaps we could understand your feelings if you explain what you think was stolen from the actual slaves, and how that impacts you today.

[big bad wolf on 22.12.04 at 08:30]

True,,,,but I think we are all in jail and nobody gets out of jail for free....How do you think the Palestians feel? They had their country stolen.If you can prove what is been taken and you really need it go get it through the courts. Most of Black Bermuda came to Bermuda after the early 1900 for economic oppurtunity.Again if there are cases to answer from the past bring it forward and go after the wrongs case by case....In my mind what stands out is the Tuckers Town land and the families of St.Davids Islanders that were moved from their land to build the airport.In my family I am not aware of any wrong doing...We were ship builders and sailors; Bermuda was our base. I'm sure that individuals behaved badly and each one of them would have to face their own demons.Humanity is heaven and hell wrapped together.I dont like how the English treated the Irish or the Scottish in the past anymore how they supported slavery.I can hold opinions on the past but I cant change it unless I can find my time machine.Then if I go back and mess with the past it could prevent some of the biggest complainers from being born.So I think I wont tamper with the past but work with you on the future because fairness is a garden that needs constant weeding. Finally its our humanity that is important and though we sink low we also soar to the stars....I do not know why existence is such a battle....but many days I feel that life is a solitary score card and this Outerbridge likes his mark but is attempting to do better. While humanity is wonderful I prefer cats!

[Tiger Bay on 22.12.04 at 08:40]

And tigers. Don't forget the tigers!

[jake on 22.12.04 at 09:43]

Graeme,

I hope that you will consider reading chained on the rock. It is about slavery in Bermuda, which now, since you think most blacks came willingly to Bermuda, you seem to doubt existed. Will you please prove me wrong and acknowledge that slavery existed in Bermuda, and that it was a horrendous institution from which our society is still divided. Can you give me that much?

Galt, are you seriously asking me to describe what was stolen from the slaves? Are you unable to picture it for yourself? That is why our history needs to be taught in the schools.

Our language. Our religion. Our history. Our roots. Our children. Our humanity. Our wives. Our daughters. Our sons. Our husbands. Our mothers and fathers. Our aunts and our uncles. Our grandparents on both sides. Our assets. Our businesses. Our government. Our land. Our dignity. Our lives.

Are you beginning to understand how we view our history?

[jake on 22.12.04 at 10:13]

(submitted for your consideration)

Still I Rise

You may write me down in history
With your bitter, twisted lies,
You may trod me in the very dirt
But still, like dust, I'll rise.

Does my sassiness upset you?
Why are you beset with gloom?
'Cause I walk like I've got oil wells
Pumping in my living room.

Just like moons and like suns,
With the certainty of tides,
Just like hopes springing high,
Still I'll rise.

Did you want to see me broken?
Bowed head and lowered eyes?
Shoulders falling down like teardrops.
Weakened by my soulful cries.

Does my haughtiness offend you?
Don't you take it awful hard
'Cause I laugh like I've got gold mines
Diggin' in my own back yard.

You may shoot me with your words,
You may cut me with your eyes,
You may kill me with your hatefulness,
But still, like air, I'll rise.

Does my sexiness upset you?
Does it come as a surprise
That I dance like I've got diamonds
At the meeting of my thighs?

Out of the huts of history's shame
I rise
Up from a past that's rooted in pain
I rise
I'm a black ocean, leaping and wide,
Welling and swelling I bear in the tide.
Leaving behind nights of terror and fear
I rise
Into a daybreak that's wondrously clear
I rise
Bringing the gifts that my ancestors gave,
I am the dream and the hope of the slave.
I rise
I rise
I rise.

Maya Angelou

[Fornicator on 22.12.04 at 10:59]

Graeme,

You don't even need to go back to slavery. In the 20th century blacks were denied equal opportunity to progress in this society. There is a mason out there who might have been a major supplier of concrete. There is a mechanic out there who might have been a car dealer. There is a social activist who might have been a Premier. There is a teller out there who might have been the head of a bank. There is a clerk who might have been a sales manager. There is a bartneder who might have been a restauranteur. There is a tiler who might have been a surgeon. There is a convict who might have been a lawyer.

The list goes on and on - the moral of the story is that my great grandparents lived in a society that ushered them into a limited range of opportunities that has a direct impact on me and my grandchildren. By denying great grandparents equal access to money, power and education, you thus deny the great grandchildren. The proof is there for everyone to see if you open yourself to it.

Next time we have a hurricane, ask yourself why 99/100 workers are black. I'll be the first person to say that we as a people would be a lot further ahead if we had a collective focus on improving our lot in this society. But at the same time I am not going to to ignore the attempts made to ensure that we did not act as a collective. Our lot isn't just because some of us have squandered the opportunities we have had - it's also because of the damage that was done decades before.

More importantly, even if blacks and whites were living in Bermuda in complete harmony, there would still be a need for society as a whole to take some measures to provide opportunities that were denied for centuries. To me that means a first class public education system, a first class small business development operation, respected tertiary and professional education opportunities in Bermuda, access to venture capital, and a slight shift of taxation from consumption income to investment income. I'm sure there are others...

The kind of reparations that Derek Burgess calls for is flat out irresponsible. But, society as a whole needs to appreciate that the damage continued long after slavery "ended" and that there is much more that can be done to really bring about a real end to our past.

Acknowledgement + action = equality.

[J Galt on 22.12.04 at 11:08]

Our language? In todays world what language would you rather speak?

Our religion. Are you religious?

Our history. What do you mean by this?

Our roots. Wouldn't this be the same and history?

Our humanity. (the quality or state of being human) You don't consider yourself human?

(Our children. Our wives. Our daughters. Our sons. Our husbands. Our mothers and fathers. Our aunts and our uncles. Our grandparents on both sides.) lets call this group family. You have had your family memebers stolen??

Our assets. (assets cover businesses and land) You have had your assets stolen?

Our government. Your government was stolen? Which one?

Our dignity. Your dignity was stolen please explain.

Our lives. Your life was stolen? If you didn't have life wouldn't you be dead?

Did any of these things really happen to you? They didn't they happened to other people and where comitted by other people, there is no denying it was wrong, just as wrong as trying to place the responiblity of a 100 year old rape on the prime suspect's great grand child.

[Fornicator on 22.12.04 at 11:18]

Galt,

I know you were responding to Jake, but please read the stolen bike analogy again to contrast with the logic behind your reply.

[J Galt on 22.12.04 at 11:28]

There is a mason out there who might have been dead from ebola. There is a mechanic out there who might have been eaten by a lion. There is a social activist who might have been a goat herder. etc etc....

Come on if slavery didn't happen we, (and I mean WE) wouldn't be here, our great grand parents would never have met, we would have never been born, we are alive because of the chance meetings of our parents and their parents and so on.

The stolen bike analogy doesn't work because Gram the owner of the bike is still alive, the bike is still his property. It should be returned to him.

[Fornicator on 22.12.04 at 11:55]

So if I steal Graeme's bike, car, house, etc. last week, and he passes away this week, you are saying that his kids should not be able to make any claim whatsover? And are you saying that only definitive goods should be compensated for?

PS: I was trying to point out that your rape analogy makes no sense without a discussion of inherited benefits.

[jake on 22.12.04 at 12:03]

Because you place little value on my history, should I? I have had the knowledge of my ancestry stolen from me and there is nothing that can replace it. But let's look back shall we Galt. It was you who asked what was stolen from the slave. My response was to that question. do you accept that those things were stolen? I see from your response that you think we are better off as a result. I would prefer to be able to speak in my native tongue - but since I don't know what that was, there is little opportunity for me to do so.

You have a western approach to history and family. I believe that connection to the past is essential as a stabalizing factor today. So much resentment exists toward the white community Galt because people like you ask us to justify our historical position of disenfranchisement as you mistakenly believe that it was your own power that bestowed your position on you. Nowhere, do you believe, that society's wrongs of the past benefit you. Your mistake is that you believe your view immunizes you from the rest of us.

You live in the world with us. Believe me, our perceptions affect you too.

[J Galt on 22.12.04 at 14:56]

"PS: I was trying to point out that your rape analogy makes no sense without a discussion of inherited benefits."

"..just as wrong as trying to place the responiblity of a 100 year old rape on the prime suspect's great grand child. "

So you think that the child should be made to pay?

[J Galt on 22.12.04 at 15:00]

I could also argue that as a poor white person I would have been a lot better of if my family had been allowed to work the cotton fields instead of being replace by the slave labour of your family. Losing their jobs forced them into hard times which has negativly impacted my life, so I would like some of the pie re-distributed to me as well.

[jake on 22.12.04 at 15:02]

You have never been the victim of crime. That is obvious. If someone took your life's work and killed you, your family would want compensation: you would want the same for them. You truly have a double standard. One for you and another for the rest of us.

There is no equality in that, Galt. None.

[jake on 22.12.04 at 15:09]

What evidence historical or otherwise do you have for white families being oppressed by slavery? How does your assertion of loss nullify the claim by those who were oppressed? You simply do not think slavery was wrong at all do you. It has benefitted us and so we should not complain about it right? That is why you get no sympathy from me when you complain that the Government is not responsive to your needs or freedoms since you have no value for anyone elses.

[Fornicator on 22.12.04 at 15:17]

"So you think that the child should be made to pay?"

I wrote that your analogy makes no sense without a discussion of inhereted benefits.

"I could also argue that as a poor white person I would have been a lot better of if my family had been allowed to work the cotton fields instead of being replace by the slave labour of your family. Losing their jobs forced them into hard times which has negativly impacted my life, so I would like some of the pie re-distributed to me as well."

Perhaps this will make it clearer for you - Please FUCK OFF on the Nancy Acton Express you ignorant, insenstive, bigoted son of a bitch!

[loki on 22.12.04 at 15:42]

"Perhaps this will make it clearer for you - Please FUCK OFF on the Nancy Acton Express you ignorant, insenstive, bigoted son of a bitch!"

Seconded. Good God, I really do wonder sometimes............

[shipstones on 22.12.04 at 17:38]

Yes Galt why don't you go away into your dismal selfish world and wonder why do these people think I'm an asshole?
I never said that I felt guilty, but I do recognize, acknowledge, sadly understand that the British enslaved and segregated black people for their own economic well being. I recognize that the whole British economy at that time relied on such a policy.

Thats why I understand certain black people wanting independence from the British without thought for the economic future of themselves or Bermuda. It is something they can't get passed.

Luckily there are people like Jake that outnumber the ones that feel this way. He recognizes the way forwrd, but still cannot forget nor should he or Brits for that matter, what happened in the past.

[J Galt on 22.12.04 at 18:12]

Whoa, Hey now. Easy now, Calm yourselves.

Here we go.

"You simply do not think slavery was wrong at all do you"

Yes, I do. Salvery is wrong, it is the will of another human forced on an individual or groups of individuals. I am very opposed to this.

When you enslave someone you take their life, they might live but the fuits of their labour are taken from them, gone is the freedom of choice with out the threat of force. This is very wrong.

[shipstones on 22.12.04 at 18:26]

Why don't you put that into context Galt and state the obvious that the thing you revile was perpetrated by Brits! And White Bermudians!

[big bad wolf on 22.12.04 at 18:39]

I do not deny our history but if slaves had never been brought to Bermuda I guess Black Bermudians would of been in Brazil or Africa or the South. Far as the past goes it has been unfair to many and that includes those who are a whiter shade of pale.Slavery in Bermuda was wrong to Blacks to those of mixed blood the indians and the Irish indentured servants and the many workers that came from the Azores.I would have never been born if a black man had not saved my father from drowning when he was swimming on North shore. This summer irony would have it that man's grandson was dating my daughter. I cant change the past but I love my Bermuda family no matter its shade...Merry Xmas and lets make Bermuda a better place for us all in 2005. Brother Wolf...and yeah ive got athing for TIGERS too...Born in the Year of the Tiger..GRRRow!!!

[J Galt on 22.12.04 at 19:32]

Shipstones,

very well I'll grant your christmas wish, the thing I revile was perpertrated by many different types of Individuals, all of whom where not me.

Happy?

[Tiger Bay on 22.12.04 at 22:13]

Sorry to butt in - a little comic relief.

A mayor in Columbia is using mimes to improve both traffic and citizens' behavior. Initially 20 professional mimes shadowed pedestrians who didn't follow crossing rules: A pedestrian running across the road would be tracked by a mime who mocked his every move. Mimes also poked fun at reckless drivers. The program was so popular that another 400 people were trained as mimes.

Maybe we can get some mimes to track Cabinet and chase the police into action.

http://www.news.harvard.edu/gazette/2004/03.11/01-mockus.html

[shipstones on 23.12.04 at 12:14]

Guilt,... sorry Galt, you still refuse to name Brits and white Bermudians in this Bermuda context. Mr. Outerbridge, if you don't think your priveledged because of slavery and apartheid there is no hope for you. Come out and say it!
No one is asking you to give up the family property, just admit to the past.

[big bad wolf on 23.12.04 at 12:30]

Shipstones I dont really know how much more clear I can make it...slavery was wrong so was Ruanda and Dafur and so is the endless number of man's inhumanity to man,stretching out into the past. No I am not aware of any personal linkage to slavery....It does seem true that wrongs are visited to future generations...sins of the father...I feel that man's inhumanity to man is a given and probably many would agree its still with us in 2004. I have nothing to admit to I'm blameless. Have a GREAT XMAS

Shipstones,

I place the blame fairly on those individuals who where responsible for the acts. Not one group or another.

You could say Bermudians owned slaves, but not all Bermudians did. You could say White Bermudians owned slaves, but not all white