Burch To The Rescue

I would like to apologise for the error in my column today, where I said that I had observed an "either with us or against us" attitude among some Bermudians when it came to discussing ways to achieve racial equality.

Lieutenant-Colonel David Burch has just pointed out that this attitude is more correctly described as "you're either with us or you're a racist", before telling me that I was a damn limey foreigner who should just butt out.

Comments

[Onion on 03.02.05 at 23:11]

Limey, welcome to local politics. As someone warned you earlier, once you start writing publicly you will get some abuse. Eight years ago, if I wrote a column like yours in the paper promoting the PLP I wouldn't just get called a name. I would have my mortgage pulled. I wouldn't get a job. You should be happy you've just been called a name.

I am not saying that you should be dissuaded from writing but let's put things into context. Supposed I moved to Northern Ireland and after a year or so I started a website called "Onion in Belfast".

On the website I started critiquing the politics of the Ulster Unionists and the IRA. Suppose I gave my opinion in the local papers every week on what I think the Sinn Fein should be doing. Or suppose I gave my opinions on whether the Orange Men (whatever they are called) should march through the Catholic neighbourhood. Suppose I wrote in the daily paper that everone should change the name Londonderry to Derry or vice versa? Keep in mind I am a foreigner whose only just moved to this territory and have not lived through the years and years of IRA bombings or events such as Bloody Sunday.

Do you think people would be calling me congratulating me for stimulating wonderful intellectual debate? I probably would not last long enough to get to the second week of my weekly column. Correction, I would make the third week but in the obituary.

What I am trying to say is that we are dealing with a highly emotive subject in Bermuda. I am sure you know something about the history of this place by now. Do not underestimate the highly charged emotions you are dealing with. We might not be planting bombs under one another's cars but the divisions are sometimes no less emotionally divisive as they are in Northern Ireland. Yes, you are entitled to freedom of speech, but this is not a Cambridge Union debate. Expect to get some abuse, especially being that you come from England and you are treading on some very sensitive issues (ie race, colonialism, independence). No matter how you may try to qualify your statements, rightly or wrongly you will probably always be regarded by many as a patronising limey who has come to tell the natives what is best for them. Nevertheless, in comparison to many jurisdictions we are still very tolerant of other people's opinions.

[big bad wolf on 03.02.05 at 23:28]

Limey Burch is just unhappy because he cannot get his hands on the power he craves. I'm glad to say I played a key role in keeping him out of office in Smiths South on several elections.My opinion as a Bermudian is that I value your thoughts and ideas ..please stay engaged with your ideas and thoughts. You bring a fresh mind to old patterns of thought.It is almost commical to witness the wrath of the PLP on the issue of Independence. Last time round they boycotted the vote on Independence and now they want everyone to jump on the issue just because its their show now.No worries that dog won't hunt!

[Onion on 03.02.05 at 23:30]

Unionist.

[Pete on 03.02.05 at 23:54]

Amen Limey, Amen.
I'm still not exactly sure how not supporting or dissuading independence is racist. The Colonel's reasons are not exactly clear or legitimate from my point of view. Maybe someone can explain to my why this would be concidered racist

[ENIGMA on 04.02.05 at 00:05]

I don't know about you but I was always taught to be very wary of men who maintain psuedo military titles in the aftermath of their military service. Are we living in the past perhaps? What is is so hard to accept about plain old 'David Burch.' Why does Mr. Burch feel the need to embrace himself in such an irrelevant title that has no real meaning. May I also add how incongruos the current hairstyle is with the grandiose military TITLE! Napoleon had an excuse but David, I don't think so! Me-thinks there are some issues that need to be dealt with. Is it time to come out and admit that we just love the uniform!

[Steve Moffat on 04.02.05 at 00:29]

LOL.....dontcha just luv village hall politics

[jake on 04.02.05 at 07:13]

Some people will never give PLP men their due. He was the Commanding Officer of the Bermuda Regiment. Does anyone criticise Col. Outerbridge or Col Darling for using the title they earned?

Field Ranks are titles that are continued after service. Once one reaches Major, the title is for life.

Does anyone critcise Sir John Swan or Sir James Astwood? How about the Governor?

No. Just Col. Burch.

That is what I call uncharitable, but unsurprising.

And Phil, where was the article giving him praise for fixing the WEDCO problem? No. Just coverage of the negative comments. Were you there to hear the context? I was not and I would like to understand how opposition counld be racist, but at least be fair....give the praise and the criticism, lest the allegation of convergence become real.

[Tiger Bay on 04.02.05 at 07:22]

He was part of the Wedco problem. I am not sure he should be praised for stopping being unreasonable.

[Fornicator on 04.02.05 at 07:53]

Phil,

If you can, post a copy of his speech. The RG article points his "foreigner" comment towards the Washington Think Tank - not spouses of Bermudians.

The comment below is worthy of debate:

"Those against Independence are making a “universal declaration” that they do not trust themselves or their fellow Bermudians, Lieutenant-Colonel David Burch has argued."

As is:

"The “perceived failures” of recently independent black run countries were “trotted out” as a warning against the pitfalls of sovereignty, Colonel Burch argued.
“No failure on the part of any white-run independent countries was ever mentioned,” he said."

In the article racist is only used in reference to people who use scare tactics to dissuade locals from participating in the debate. Even a recent Royal Gazette editorial warned about the illogical scare tactics being used that were so offensive that they could drive people apart. And in the case of the two Smith columns on Bermuda turning into Haiti, that was indeed racist.

[The Limey on 04.02.05 at 07:55]

Once again I find myself wishing the language had a sarcasm point. I'd just like to make it clear that I've never spoken to Lt. Col. Burch.

[ace on 04.02.05 at 07:56]

Quote from today's RG:

"Down racial lines 26.2 percent of black Bermudians supported Independence and 57.8 percent opposed it."

Col. Burch is just simply getting increasingly desparate, as is Alex Scott. When that happens the race card is predictably played.

Jake, did you read Tueday's (or was it Monday's...don't recall)editorial regarding WEDCO? Col. Burch was given some rare "good press" in that one. Then he follows with this ridiculous speech on Independence.

As to the use of his military rank...he has EVERY right to do so, I agree.

[The Limey on 04.02.05 at 09:27]

Jake,

I don't disagree that I should give credit where it's due. But I'll reserve that for particularly noteworthy achievements if it's OK with you.

When Dale Butler stood up for gay rights, that was a praiseworthy event. But at WEDCO, Burch was just doing his job. It just goes to show what low expectations we have of our politicians if every time they get something right you expect that they should be praised.

You should also be aware that this is a blog, not a newspaper. I write mostly about stuff that interests me. Cement is intrinsically pretty boring stuff. However, the cement debacle was interesting when Butterfield was running around making comparisons with Zimbabwe. As soon as it became a sensible discussion about the negotiation of a lease, the story got a lot less interesting.

If you want news stories, read the papers or turn on the TV. If you want opinion on the stuff I find interesing - and hopefully a little humour too - come here.

[H Reardon on 04.02.05 at 09:37]

Limey, thanks for the chuckle.

[jake on 04.02.05 at 10:17]

Phil,

What would be "ok" with me was if you did not only find the parts of stories that put the PLP into a bad light interesting.

As a tribute to fairness you should have given equal weight to the resolution of a problem your blog helped to popularise.

You are the one who claims to be fair. If you want to be selective, then hoist your UBP flag like Christian. I strongly suspect, as I have said before, that they do not represent your views, but I maintain that biased commentary makes you their servant.

As to Colonel Burch, he is an effective manager. He is not trying to be the kiss baby politician, but he is honest, and gets the job done. Let's be frank. Would you prefer Col. Burch solving the housing problem or Jamahl Simmons? Would you prefer Col. Burch solving the WEDCO allegations or David Dunkley? The benefit of Burch is that he is able to deliver strong medicine to a population in dire need of it. He is able to kick someone out of their BHC house because they do not want to pay their rent, and go on trips regularly. He has the credibility and the mind to use it.

What I would like to see is Burch on Crime, or Burch on education. Let's be totally frank, perhaps Burch on public relations is not the best thing, but I like my politicians effective at their jobs - not out here to kiss my pinky ring.

[Onion on 04.02.05 at 10:51]

Limey,

do you consider yourself Bermudian? I always hear you say "we" and "our" and "us" when referring to anything in Bermuda.

[Fornicator on 04.02.05 at 11:13]

It is very easy to read that he's calling all independence opposers racist if you are just whipping through the article and seasoning it with his "we don't care what you think" comment. Add that to the sincerity of yesterday's column, and it is no surprise that so few caught the sarcasm in today's post.

According to the article he did not call all opposers racist (though he might actually feel that way), and the only specific group he targeted was the Washington think tink and other scaremongers. Does anyone have a copy of the speech? I'd be curious to see how caustic his remarks were overall.

I found the scare tactic article. It was in fact written by William Cox

[Bermudians considering the option of independence should give some thought to the experience of Grenada - the most beautiful of the Caribbean islands. It is oval in shape, volcanic in origin, 100 square miles in area, fertile and well wooded, has a population of 100,000, English is the main language and the economy is based on agriculture and tourism.
The man who dominated the political stage during the 60s and 70s was Eric Matthew Gairy – a man born in Grenada who worked in the Aruba oilfields but returned to Grenada in the early 50s. He had limited education and came to prominence as a labour union organizer and leader.
He persuaded the urban and rural workers that they were being exploited and delighted them with his total disrespect for the Governor and the white establishment. He organized Grenada’s first general strike, which erupted into violence, and several people were killed and thereafter he was arrested and fined on several occasions for offensive behaviour and obscene language. The accompanying publicity caused him to be idolized by the workers who came to look on him as their champion.
Gairy used this union backing to get himself into politics and organized the Grenada United Labour Party (“GULP”) which won sufficient votes to get him a ministerial seat in 1967. Attaining political power brought out the worst side of Gairy. He completely forgot or ignored his undertakings to help the workers and his first priority was securing his power base by surrounded himself with “friends” whose loyalty he bought with perquisites such as big salaries and houses and unlimited travel and expense allowances and awards of Government contracts.
He also replaced the civil servants who ran the police and the courts and the finance departments with other “friends”. When his policies gave rise to opposition he disarmed and suppressed his opponents by censoring the media and harassing them not only personally but also attacking and vandalizing their families and their homes and their businesses. He passed a law making it illegal to use a loudspeaker without a licence for the sole reason of preventing political opponents from addressing large gatherings.
Not being satisfied with the efforts of the police he organized a hand-picked body of some 300 unemployed persons of bad character – ex-convicts thugs and ruffians – which became known as the “Mongoose Gang” who were paid from the public purse to do his will. Brutal beatings and torture became routine in the various police stations and people began mysteriously “disappearing”.
There developed a political opposition to GULP called the New Jewell Movement (“NJM”) under the leadership of a young charismatic London trained lawyer Maurice Bishop who had strong Communist leanings. Gairy determined to crush the NJM. On 18 November 1973, which became known as Bloody Sunday, Bishop and five other NJM leaders were beaten unmercifully and thrown into Grenville prison. A few months later on 21 January 1974 NJM arranged a public demonstration in St. George’s which Gairy ordered the Mongoose Gang to break up which they did causing riots in which several people were killed including Maurice Bishop’s father Rupert.
Meanwhile Gairy set 7 February 1974 for Independence Day which the U. K. accepted despite growing opposition not only to Gairy but also to Gairy’s plans for independence. Thousands of Grenadians were unimpressed with what independence had done in Jamaica and Trinidad and wanted a referendum on independence to be held. They looked on the removal of Britain’s residual responsibilities as opening the door to a Gairy tyrannical dictatorship.

When Grenada achieved associated statehood in 1967 the U.K. ceased to have the last word on the appointment of the Head of State because the U.K. ceased to be responsible for ensuring good government and they appointed whoever the Premier wanted. At the time Sir Ian Turbott was Governor. His appointment was soon terminated as a result of differences with Premier Gairy and a distinguished Grenadian medical practitioner Dame Hilda Bynoe was appointed to succeed him.
Gairy made political capital out of being the first person responsible for the appointment of a woman to this exalted office but when there were demonstrations against Gairy of unprecedented proportions in January 1974 in which Rupert Bishop was murdered Dame Hilda not only vacated the position of Governor but left Grenada in fear of her life.
Dame Hilda Bynoe was succeeded by a rich white Grenadian Sir Leo DeGale as Governor who represented the Queen at the Independence Day celebrations on 7 February 1974 which turned out to be a miserable affair. The NJM had called a nationwide strike and the so-called ceremonies were a farce. In September 1979 Sir Leo DeGale decided to migrate to Australia before completing his term of office and Gairy then had his former Cabinet secretary – a black Grenadian - Sir. Paul Scoon appointed Governor.
In December 1976 an election was held in which GULP won 9 seats and NJM 6 seats which was a creditable result because the opposition party gained 48.5 percent of the popular vote while GULP controlled the media and were guilty of mass manipulation of voter registration and voting malpractice and vote counting. With these disadvantages the NJM decided that the brutal and corrupt Gairy – now Sir Eric Gairy since he like most Premiers had awarded himself a knighthood - government must be ejected.
In July 1977 the annual conference of the Organization of American States was held in St. George’s. The NJM decided to hold a demonstration against Gairy’s government which the government made illegal. The NJM went ahead and Gairy ordered his Mongoose Gang to break it up with gunfire and the NJM acquired a second martyr – 17-year-old Alister Strachn.
Gairy travelled frequently usually to the U.S. where he stayed in the best hotels and enjoyed the services of prostitutes. He made Grenada a member of the United Nations and on March 12, 1979, he left Grenada for New York where he was to make an address on the importance of Unidentified Flying Objects.
The next day March 13, 1979, Maurice Bishop and his opposition colleagues organized an armed assault on the various Gairy strongholds all of which surrendered and the coup d’etat was accomplished without bloodshed. Some 60 or more of Gairy’s “friends” in high positions were arrested and the Mongoose Gang disbanded. The coup was enormously popular and the whole island came into the streets to celebrate.
Maurice Bishop was undoubtedly the leader of the revolution and was proclaimed the Prime Minister of the new government which was called the Peoples Revolutionary Government (“PRG”). He proclaimed the return of democracy and free elections but this was not the view of his right hand man Bernard Coard and did not happen.
Although not a prominent public figure Coard was a strong character who became Deputy Prime Minister and influenced the progress of the PRG more than Bishop. He was a dedicated Marxist and agreed with Castro that the free world’s institutions of an elected legislature and an independent judiciary are nothing but a nuisance. The PRG would be run by a clique of the party faithful who would make and enforce laws and run the country.
The PRG military junta ruled Grenada for the ensuing four and a half years during which they did much to repair the disastrous devastation left by Gairy and made some meaningful improvements such as the construction of an airport but it also displayed serious faults and alienated the West by courting Leninism. Dissatisfaction with Bishop’s leadership and the inevitable split arising out of policy and personality conflicts led to violence and many died including the brutal massacre of Bishop and ten of his colleagues on 19 October 1983.
The resulting chaos in Grenada and concern for the safety of foreign nationals and the threat to neighbours resulted in the island being invaded on October 27, 1983 by a coalition of West Indian forces led by the U.S. Marines. The people of Grenada joyously welcomed the invaders as liberators and it took only a few days for such opposition as there was to be overcome. Foreign nationals were unharmed and the Cuban soldiers and workers were expelled.
Neither Gairy nor Bishop paid any attention to the 1973 Independence Constitution adopted 10 years before and the only legally established surviving authority under it was the Head of State Sir Paul Scoon. The international community rallied around Scoon and he appointed a committee whose purpose it was to arrange elections and organize a government which would operate within the provisions of the 1973 Constitution.
Anyone who thinks these events cannot be repeated here in Bermuda is mistaken. They are already happening.]

Anyone who thinks that opposition to independence is entirely rooted in rational thought and has nothing to do with bigotry ought to know better. Clearly the pro-independence people aren't the only ones suffering from emotional delusions.

[Onion on 04.02.05 at 11:34]

Bill Cox has taken the worst possible scenario and made it the poster child of his ant-independence campaign. So what about the other islands that went independent and maintained a peaceful and stable environment? In any event our economy is completely different from that of Grenada prior to independence.

I am always amazed at the scare tactics employed by some in this country.

[Fornicator on 04.02.05 at 12:46]

LOL - In today's paper Diana Williams is saying t Bermuda would go broke because we would have to maintain embassies all over the world. But it gets better - Independence means getting attacked by terrorists or invaded by another power. We also need to be able to call upon Britain in case of riots, and (Guilden she actually named you) you would be shit out of luck if you got arrested in some back street in Turkey.

These are the kooks that remind me of how far Bermuda still has to go. This independence debate is going to be a rude awakening for a lot of people.

[The Limey on 04.02.05 at 13:04]

Onion,

I wouldn't presume to consider myself Bermudian, at least not for another eight and a half years. ;-) But Bermuda is my home now - indefinitely, not just for the duration of a work permit - so I feel just as strongly about the place as anyone else would about the place he's chosen to spend the rest of his life in. Hence my occasional use of "we" and "our" where I feel it's justified (and I do try to be careful not to use those words inappropriately).

That said, saying "it just goes to show what low expectations we have of our politicians" may not have been appropriate given that I can't actually vote for any of them. However I do still feel a certain identification as they take my taxes and provide the services that I use.

It also makes my wife happy. She's very keen that I identify more with Bermuda than the UK lest I ever suggest we move back there!

[Tiger Bay on 04.02.05 at 13:11]

"This independence debate is going to be a rude awakening for a lot of people."

Yes, 65% of the population who are opposed to independence is a lot of people.

[Ra-ra-ra Man on 04.02.05 at 14:19]

More and more nowadays, the race card is played when there is nothing else. Sad, because it dilutes the real struggle for equality.

Crying wolf always fails in the end.

[Onion on 04.02.05 at 14:25]

Limey,

Understood. Thanks.

Tiger,

Do you honestly live and breathe by those damn surveys? I could argue that 65% of the population is ignorant. Let's just look forward to some lively debate in Bermuda on the subject. Few people really understand what nationhood means. Then after we've had informed debate we can check the surveys.

[Tiger Bay on 04.02.05 at 14:41]

Whether they understand nationhood is irrelevant if they do not want it.

Yes, I place credence in polls and referenda.

[Fornicator on 04.02.05 at 15:23]

"Yes, 65% of the population who are opposed to independence is a lot of people."

I'm talking about 80% of the population who are in for a wild ride - it has nothing to do with those who are for or against independence.

"Yes, I place credence in polls and referenda."

Polls and referenda are worlds apart.

[clydesdale on 04.02.05 at 15:35]

Fornicator what is this wild ride and why only 80% of the pop will be affected?

[ace on 04.02.05 at 15:37]

"Few people really understand what nationhood means."

Enlighten us...please.

[Fornicator on 04.02.05 at 16:15]

"Fornicator what is this wild ride and why only 80% of the pop will be affected?"

Most people have no idea that there are extremists in the public. They look at certain high profile people and think, "Man he is a nut". But the nuts we see now are going to look harmless next to the real nutters who are going to creep out of the woodwork. I don't think I'll ever forget this lady up at the Government House for the 2002 Constitutional changes. She uttered something like, "Is, is, is this some kind of genocide the Government is doing?"

The freaks are going to come out, and there will be much embarassment and shame for all.

[Onion on 04.02.05 at 16:36]

Tiger, to say it is irrelevant that they do not understand it so long as they don't want it is absurd. What is wrong with letting people make informed decisions? Why are people so afraid to disccuss?? Talk about censorship.

Ace,

that is why the government is opening it up to a national discussion. A few emails won't enlighten you.

[clydesdale on 04.02.05 at 16:46]

Ya think there are that many crazies out there? Do you mean more scare tatics? or just plain crazies with jaded views of the world or just Bemruda?

[Guilden M. Gilbert, Jr. on 04.02.05 at 17:27]

Fornicator,

I saw the Diana Williams letter and my response has been sent to the editor.

I have offered a challenge to two outspoken individuals who oppose Independence, Bill Cx and Michael Marsh, to debate me and me alone in a public forum, none of them has accepted my challenge, I wonder why. Could it be that they have no argument outside of their scare tactics?

I am so sick of tire of the bullshit scare-tactics. Why can't those who oppose Independence present some factual arguments to support their case as to how Bermuda will be after Independence? The reality is that there are only three, I repeat, three areas of our consitution that make us a dependent territory. (1) Internal Security, which we manage and pay for without much influence or input from the British Government, (2) External Affairs, another area we handle ourselves with final sign-off from Great Britain and (3) External Defense - when was the first and/or last time Bermuda was the target of any planned invasion or attack? With our proximity to the U.S. any attempt would lead to immediate action from the U.S. and even still how long would it take the British Forces to get here? By the time they got here the invasion would be complete. If someone wanted to invade Bermuda our status would have nothing to do with it.

If you want a real case as to what the U.S. will do ask Bill Cox to expound on his story of Grenada. Have him tell you about how after Independence the U.S. entered the country to prevent a Marxes group from over-throwing the Government. He has yet to address that issue during his nonsense about Bermuda being exposed militarily.

Further, contrary to what many believe my views on Independence are not emotional. The reality is that very little would change, except we would have complete control over our own destiny. The economy we experience today is not a result of our dependency, it is a result of the legislation that is in place, it is a result of the political and economic stability Bermuda shows. Those that oppose Independence say that all hell will break loose but I ask, "Why?" The "natives" are not ignorant and it is the "natives" that brought us to the point we are today.

At the end of the day the majority will make the decision. I would just like to see the decision made after the population has been fully educated on the factual pros and cons of Independence.

I wish people would stop trying to use Jamaica as their example of Independence as Jamaica's situation has nothing, whatsoever to do with its Independence. Jamaica was a producer of bauxite (alluminum) and in the early 1980's the price of alluminum collapsed, this caused massive unemployment in Jamaica, at the same time world oil prices rose significantly (Jamaica was an importer of oil), this coupled with the double digit unemployment caused stagflation (a stalling of the economy). For another exaple of stagflation do some research on Brazil. In an effort to attract foreign investment to jump start the economy the Government of the day began to devalue the Jamaican dollar. Therein lies the reason Jamaica is in the economic situation it is in today. What does that have to with Independence which occurred in 1962?

I could go on to talk about the Bahamas, which has an economy very similar Bermuda, probably more similar than an other country. I can provide economic evidence that the Bahamas and Bahamians are better off after independence. But what is the point, someone will come back with some lame response and on this forum a debate, in my view, is a waste of time. I would much prefer an open public debate on the topic because I know what information I have and my information is factual.

Before anyone rebuts what I am saying here let me just say, if you want to discuss it let's do it in a very public way discussing only fatcs, no scare tactics or whatifs because I know that once a referendum (yes, I prefer and believe a referendum is the fairest way to get a decision) is held, Bermuda will either be on the road to Independence or the issue will not and should not be raised for many years after the decision.

So just know that I am not going to get into any debate on this or any other site. Again if you want to discuss it, I will tell you when I am next in Bermuda and we can have a public discussion. The emal address you see attaced to my name is a real email address so fel free to use it.

[The Limey on 04.02.05 at 17:45]

Guilden,

I get the impression that some people are using scare tactics because, well, they're scared. And ridiculing that fear isn't likely to do much to dissipate it. I would have thought reassurance was a better tactic.

Scaremongering is certainly an emotional approach to the subject, but the antis don't have a monopoly on that. It seems to me that plenty of those in favour of independence long for it primarily as a way to symbolically sever any links with the Island's colonial past.

You say that very little would change after independence, except that Bermuda would have complete control over her destiny. I'm inclined to agree. But couldn't that also be an argument for maintaining the status quo?

As for Bill Cox and Michael Marsh - who are you to demand that they debate you in public? It does not follow that their reluctance to do so is because they don't have an argument. They may simply not see the point.

[The Limey on 04.02.05 at 17:53]

Guilden,

One more thing: have you told the Bermuda Independence Commission that you want to participate in a public debate on the subject? From what I understand part of the BIC's mandate is to hold forums such as that. Maybe you could get your wish for a debate with Messrs. Cook and Marsh that way.

[Pitts Bay on 04.02.05 at 18:00]

Many of the so called facts that appear in this forum are not facts at all - they are opinions. To use Guilden's example on the Bahamas, I agree that in at least the last 10 years that Bahamians are better off than prior to independence - They have worked hard with what they had and they have made a sucess of it. All the power to the Bahamians.

However, I am sure that in the opinion of many Bahamians, the 10 years post independence may not have been as good. Whether it was better or worse after independence is a matter of opinion for the people in question. Simply because Guidlen believes it so, does not make it a fact.

Many of the facts I have seen arguing for, or against, independence are opinions. The BIC will surely come out with many opinions. But at the end of the day, there will be very few facts in this debate.

[ace on 04.02.05 at 18:03]

Guilden, let me just say that it isn't just Bermudians who are scared of Independence. BIBA sent around a questionnaire recently and asked that we have our clients respond. They wanted to gauge their reaction to an Independent Bermuda.

The responses that I saw did not bode well for our company and the financial services industry in an independent Bermuda, I can assure you.

Perception is often more dangerous than fact, I don't disagree. But the perceptions of those who basically feed this island are vitally important even if you think they are misplaced.

[Guilden M. Gilbert, Jr. on 04.02.05 at 18:03]

Limey,

As I said am not going to get into a debate here on the pros and cons of Independence and I never said that I demanded anybody to a public debate. Why are you trying to put words in my mouth?

I have no problems with those who opposed Independence, they are entitled to their views and feelings as am I.

I just cannot undersand whay many who oppose it are reluctant to even have the subject discussed. It is an issue and will be a issue until it is resolved.

All I am saying is let's have a referendum on it but only after the population has been properly educated on the topic so that an informed decision can be made.

As I have said in the past, ifyou make public statements expect to be held accountable for them. As far as I can read these two gentlemen are the most vocal opponents on the topic yet when asked to support their positions on how bad the situation will be after independence they cannot substantiate what they have said. They point to places like Jamaica, which i have aready addressed and Grenada, which I have already addressed.

Why have they not been truthful about the Bahamas pre and post- Independence?

Is it so wrong for me to want my country to move on to statehood, to be able to speak for itself at international conferences, instead of having to let the U.K. speak. Why should we not be able to negotiate our own air routes without having to get U.K. approval? The list goes on.

All I would like to see is open and honest discussion on the topic. Those that have fears, which is human nature, let them place their fears on the table and let's debate them.

I am not going to stop living if the majority say no Independence, quite frankly my life wil go on just fine but why can't we openly discuss it so that people can make an informed decision?

[Guilden M. Gilbert, Jr. on 04.02.05 at 18:06]

Limey,

All I will say is that I have the ear of certain people and there are certain things that you may or may not see happen, which may or may not nvolve me.

[clydesdale on 04.02.05 at 18:18]

Guilden ( know you do not want to debate this here)

You are for independence and have all the information you need to think that way and want it. What makes you think that those who oppose it don't already have all the information they need to oppose it. It is like you are saying that those who oppose it, just don't have all the facts, but you are making your decision on something, so maybe they are as well. Just a thought.

I agree with an open and honest debate on the subject, but don't think just cause someone rejects independence is beacuse they are not educated on the subject.

Nuff said, unwards to the debates

[Guilden M. Gilbert, Jr. on 04.02.05 at 18:37]

Clydes,

Points well taken but if that is the case why do they continue only with scare tactics?

As I said, this is not an emotional issue for me. At he end of the day if the decision is to maintain status quo it doesn't change my life. This is something I have wanted for my country at least since I was in university studying economics and finance.

Here it is we sit back and clam Bermuda is such a sophisticated, well-educated and successful society, yet we have no say of our own on the world's stage. Our Government sends representatives to global leader conferences yet they cannot speak. Great Britan speaks for us. Are we not mature enough to handle our own affairs? To have our own representation on the world's stage?

Pitts Bay, if the event has occurred and the outcome has been reached, is it not fact? We have examples of countries that have become Independent that we can rely on.

As far as the Bahamas there is much that you wouldn't know unless you live here or have been able to sit and talk about the issue with those that were involved both pre and post. But that is for another time.

[Tiger Bay on 04.02.05 at 18:54]

I'm not sure we care about the world stage - we care about the stages that earn us money. Do we need the trappings of a large state, when we are the size of a small town ... no matter how wealthy we are.

[Cedar Hill on 04.02.05 at 19:16]

www.thenassauguardian.com/business/303599981492643.php+guilden+gilbert+bahamas+insurance+broker&hl=en

As an insurance broker, he described his job as not that different from that of a politician. "You have to convince people of your ability and you have to continue to provide what you promised. Politicians get voted out of office and brokers lose business to other brokers," Mr. Gilbert said.

[big bad wolf on 04.02.05 at 21:11]

Actually I like Bermuda's present state....no way do I want young Bermudians being stopped from work experience in any part of the EEC. Gifted young footballers now will not be held up by work permits and the like.Damon Ming was able to go and play football in the UK because he was able to apply for an EEC passport and get it no problem..this reality will not be extended to Bermudians if we become Independent. Do we really want to imprison young Bermudians to a twenty square mile island work and life experience?

[Guilden M. Gilbert, Jr. on 04.02.05 at 22:21]

Cedar Hill,

Just know you and anybody else can do as much research on me as you see fit. I know that I have done nothing that I am ashamed or should be ashamed of.

But I guess like many narrowed minded people if you disagree with someone's position rather than accept that we view things differently you would rather dig to find something to discredit the person who disagrees with you. Well, know this, I was taught a long time ago, "if you are going to put yourself in the public domain make certain you have a clean track record and everything you say can be substantiated." To this day I have taken that to heart and I am glad I did so that people like you can have nothing to even remotely discredit me.

Try as hard as you wish.

So dig deep and kep digging all you will find is light when you reach the other side.

[Cedar Hill on 05.02.05 at 08:47]

Lighten up Guilden! The quote is right on target. It highlights why Alex Scott's popularity is slumping - he's not doing the business his customers (the populace) want.

[Guilden M. Gilbert, Jr. on 05.02.05 at 09:20]

Cedar Hill,

Point well taken. I misunderstood what you were attempting to do, my bad.

Big Bad Wolf,

You point about Bermuda footballers really does not hold water. There is a young Bahamian playing professional football in the Czech Republic, there are numerous Jamaicans and Tinidadians playing in England and Europe, what about the Brazilians and other Latin Americans?

If the talent is there, and I do believe there is a great deal of talent in Bermuda, getting to play in the professional ranks in England and Europe is a reality.

Then when you look at education, There are some 400 attorneys in the Bahamas and in excess of 90% of them studied and did their pupilage in England. There are many Bahamians working and living in England and Europe and they had no problems doing so.

Another reality is that as our young people go off the do post-secondary education that chances are increased that they will marry a non-Bermudian and many wil not look to come back home.

So our young people are not and wil not e prisoned in the twenty one square miles of Bermuda.

[ace on 05.02.05 at 09:46]

Guilden,

Curious as to why you chose to completely ignore my last post. Perhaps you consider this scaremongering? But it isn't ME who is scaremongering. It is my clients...the people who pay my salary, and all the other Bermudians who work in our firm.

If you are wondering why these surveys were not published and made public I suggest you speak to our government.

[Fornicator on 05.02.05 at 11:44]

"Ya think there are that many crazies out there? Do you mean more scare tatics? or just plain crazies with jaded views of the world or just Bemruda?"

Yes, I'd say that the fringe population is at at least 20%, and they will shock the living daylights out of the remaining 80% who were clueless about the level of enmity that still exists. I'd even go further and say that a lot of people who are ordinarily moderate will engage in some really dumb shit over independence.

You will have people saying that Independence will free us from the slavemaster. And you will have people saying that it's about wiping out the white population. I bullshit you not - one person claimed that the constitutional changes were a form of genocide. This was on live TV. This week you have someone warning about Bermuda getting hit by terrorists or invaded. Egads, some people are scared shitless - for what I ask?

[Guilden M. Gilbert, Jr. on 05.02.05 at 12:48]

Ace,

There were concerns in the international company sector over a PLP election victory, which were caused by PLP opponents going around saying that if the PLP win the election the economy would take a nose dive, there would rioting in the streets.

Think about, it the same thing is being said about a post-Independence Bermuda. It is up to us as a people to say to potential new international clients and to remind existing clients that what they will enjoy and what they have enjoyed was created by the Houses of Parliament and the people of Bermuda, not reat Britain. We have been self-governing for 400 years. They need to be reminded that international company business is our bread and butter and that there is nothing that we would do to destroy that. Wha wouldit profit Bermuda to destroy it?

If those who oppose Independence would think about the harm that is being caused by the scaremongering and be real about the situation, just as there was calm and order after both PLP victories, there will be calm and order after Independence.

It is up to us as a country to reassure the international business sector. But we aren't. Think about it logically, Barbados is an independent country and it is courting and winning much of the business that would normally not think of a domicile other than Bermuda. There is no logic to the argument that there would be any trouble in Bermuda. Outside of the 1977 riots, which were directly related to the hanging of two black men, Bermudians have always shown themselves to sensible, upstanding, friendly and law adbing people who would do no harm to their country.

The concerns of the international business community is the very reason we need to have open and sensible discssion on the topic of Independence.

Does that answer your issues in your post?

[Guilden M. Gilbert, Jr. on 05.02.05 at 12:55]

Cedar Hill,

As I mentioned in an earlier post, a former very senior PLP MP was in the Bahamas last week. This person contacted me and asked if we could meet. During our meeting I expressed my concern with Alex Scott as the leader of the party and the country. Personally I think he is extremely weak as a leader and he is not doing what should be done.

Whether my comments carry any weight or not I do not know but I felt that I had to express how I felt. Because like the rest of Bermuda how I feel should matter. Vote or no vote I am still a son of the soil.

[ace on 05.02.05 at 13:01]

Guilden, I saw no surveys going out to my clients over the PLP being elected. Why? Because even under a PLP government the same rules of law applied, visa vis the Privy Council being the final right of appeal etc.

Stop mixing issues and deal with the one at hand.

[J Galt on 05.02.05 at 14:48]

"If the talent is there, and I do believe there is a great deal of talent in Bermuda, getting to play in the professional ranks in England and Europe is a reality."

"Another reality is that as our young people go off the do post-secondary education that chances are increased that they will marry a non-Bermudian and many wil not look to come back home."

The beauty of the British Passport, we are all eligible for it and it is not dependant on talent or marriage. Any Bermudian can apply for one, and once you recieve it like wolf said the whole of the EU is open to you.

The sad truth is Guilden the people with out talent and not just football but all areas of life, will not have the abiltiy to leave a independant Bermuda and try else where, else where being that place that rent isn't $1200 + a month for a one bedroom apartment, or the first rung on the property ladder is $850,000. With out talent you aren't going to be able to make a living here, and with no where for those of little or no ability to go how do you think we will survive?