Determining Self-Determination

The UK Government has announced that its preferred method for Bermuda seeking independence is by way of a referendum.

In an exclusive interview with A Limey In Bermuda, Premier Alex Scott was furious_¡ "This is just another example of the UK's interference in Bermudian affairs, another example of why this country needs to be fully self-determining," the Premier fumed_¡ "If Bermuda were independent then we would be able to choose the method for determining the will of the people on this subject ourselves"_¡

Comments

[Dandy on 14.02.05 at 10:00]

Did you actually have an interview with the Premier? If not your comments may be construed as libellous.

[loki on 14.02.05 at 10:02]

Good God, please take a quick look at the Irony Alert thread.

[Guilden M. Gilbert, Jr. on 14.02.05 at 10:20]

I think the position of Alex Scott is ridiculous and only enhances my view of him as a weak and very unpopular leader.

Everyone who knows me knows how strongly I favour Independence for Bermuda but the most democratic way of doing it is by way of a referendum. I find it hard to understand why Alex is so against a referendum.

A General Election makes it a partisan issue when it is a national issue. Further, a General Election can make it seem as though the matter is being forced on people. How do people who support the PLP but do not support Independence vote when they do not want to vote UBP? Do they stay away from the polls? If so, they have been forced out of the process.

Have a referendum and allow the decision to be made by a clear majority of the voting population.

Alex needs to realise that this matter is not about him or about the PLP. It is bigger than that, much bigger.

[Souvenirs on 14.02.05 at 10:28]

I have to agree with you on this Guilden.

[loki on 14.02.05 at 10:36]

The problem is that this an incredibly ego-driven Government. To Alex Scott, this absolutely is about him. Alex Scott wants the history books to have him as the man who led Bermuda towards independence. He knows that the only way he'll get independence is through an election, rather than referendum, which is why he's so opposed to a referendum.

[Martin on 14.02.05 at 11:14]

I guess Rammell's remarks have force Scott into finally admitting (what I guess we all knew anyway) that the mechanism for determining Independence or not, has been decided in any event and that any debate about the mechanism is abject folly.

A double slap for democracy...neither a debate or a referendum.

Is the UK one step ahead of the Premier?

[Martin on 14.02.05 at 13:09]

Guilden

I understand your question.."how do people vote" etc...and why you ask it. I am really not trying to be obtuse or smart but I would have thought the answer was obvious?

Scott knows that a referendum will give him a 'no' vote on the issue, whereas the PLP base - who will not vote UBP - either vote for independence or do not vote at all.

I guess the risk is that the party faithful may not vote, and against the narrowness of the voting in some areas in the last election, that might not return a PLP government next time.

In Scott's mind, however, it must be 'less' of a risk than going to referendum.

[Tiger Bay on 14.02.05 at 14:50]

An Ode to Alex Scott

ON BULLSHIT
"The realms of advertising and of public relations, and the nowadays closely related realm of politics, are replete with instances of bullshit so unmitigated that they can serve among the most indisputable and classic paradigms of the concept…The bullshitter may not deceive us, or even intend to do so, either about the facts or about what he takes the facts to be. What he does necessarily attempt to deceive us about is his enterprise. His only indispensably distinctive characteristic is that in a certain way he misrepresents what he is up to."
Harry Frankfurt, Princeton University

[Guilden M. Gilbert, Jr. on 14.02.05 at 16:04]

Martin,

But surely Great Britain will not accept a PLP victory as a mandate to Independence unless a clear majority of the electorate have cast ballots in favour of the PLP. Again, I am not talking about a majority of those who vote.

As is very clearly known, I favour Independence for Bermuda but I am more favouable of the decision being made, one way or the other, under a system that is going to clearly show the wishes of the people. I guess in Alex Scott's mind he thinks that the PLP can win the election, which clouds the exact wishes of the people becase the argument will be, "Did the PLP symply win an election or did it win a mandate to Independence?" The matter is much too important for this uncertainty.

At least a referendum is clear and to the point. It is either "Yes" or "No" there is no "Maybe"

The way I look at it is while I favour Independence what I favour does not matter, it is the decision of the majority. This is the way the leader of the country should view it as well, it is not his decision to make and an election potentially allows him to make that decision, which will completely divide the country and this wil lead to further unnecessary problems.

[Martin on 14.02.05 at 21:01]

Guilden

Interesting constitutional question. Do not know the answer to that, but I suspect the UK could not accept such a decision based on a route other than the 'preferred route'. As to whether it would challenge such a decision where the 'electoral' majority so wished it - as distinct from the vote - in the final analysis it may nonetheless be futile to go against the majority.

And of course should the UK intervene, that would play into Alex's hands, and the issue is then not independence but 'yet again' the UK intervenes.

Perhaps on a final point, I fear that Alex believes it is his decision to make. He is clearly passionate about it, and may well see it as his swansong.

A very poor basis for such a significant change.

[boogie on 15.02.05 at 11:31]

In 1995 the then leader of the Progressive Labour Party, Fredrick Wade, told a group of young people - at an event organised by the Party's youth wing - that "to vote yes in the Independence Referendum is to entrench United Bermuda Party into leadership of Bermuda forever".

When I asked "Well, for all of my 28 years, I've been told to vote, it is a hard won right and do not waste it. Vote! Preferably vote PLP, but if you must, vote for someone. Now, sir, you are telling me to stay away from a polling booth. How am I to know that this is the right thing."

Fredrick Wade answered: "Do not vote in the Referendum, and within the next few years there will be an election. Vote PLP in that election, and if we win - which I believe we will, young man - the next election after that will be on one issue, and one issue only; Independence for Bermuda."

He explained further that to vote yes will lock the United Bermuda Party in power, with it's unequal voting system, its antiqated districts, its system of privileges for the minority.

I wrestled with this in my mind and understood that Whitehall's position - at least in 1995 - was that if the Referendum is defeated, the next independence referendum will have to beat the 1995 Referendum's results. I believe that measure was defeated by 76%.

The real question is: Will a simple majority of 51% ensure a yes vote or will the PLP have to get 77% for the vote to be approved by Britian (having bested the figures posted in 1995)?

And if it only needs to get the 51%, why has Britain changed it's policy?

[Martin on 16.02.05 at 20:11]

Boogie

I can't comment on the last policy - I wasn't here. But to answer your point - policies change because Governments change.

No different to here.

[Tiger Bay on 18.02.05 at 09:37]

Why is BIC travelling to DC and NYC talking about independence before speaking with Bermudians themselves to determine whether we want it? That's pretty disrepectful.

In addition to the UN Committee on Decolonisation, with whom are they meeting? What are they presenting?

[Fornicator on 18.02.05 at 09:58]

"The real question is: Will a simple majority of 51% ensure a yes vote or will the PLP have to get 77% for the vote to be approved by Britian (having bested the figures posted in 1995)?"

Interesting comment there. Shouldn't it be, "will the pro-independence people have to get..."

"Why is BIC travelling to DC and NYC talking about independence before speaking with Bermudians themselves to determine whether we want it? That's pretty disrepectful."

Or maybe they want to get into a better position to answer questions related to international issues before they have open forums. Maybe they'd rather not tell the audience, "We'll have to look into it," a million times?

[Tiger Bay on 18.02.05 at 10:15]

"I was delighted to hear that the Commission will be operating openly and transparently, with material submitted to it being placed on its web site" said Governor Verecker.

Anyone know where this website is?

[cahow on 18.02.05 at 10:16]

Forni

Good point about PLP vs. "pro-independence people " .... does that mean you support the PLP or are you pro-independence (or both)?

[Pitts Bay on 18.02.05 at 10:28]

If we disregard what happened in 1995 etc., and assuming we have a referendum, what percentage of eligible voters would be sufficient to indicate that we should go independent? 50.1%? 65%? 75%

What are everyone elses thoughts on this?

[Tiger Bay on 18.02.05 at 10:35]

A simple majority is not enough to go independent. It would need to be a significant majority.

[shipstones on 18.02.05 at 10:41]

I believe it should be 65% of those eligible to vote! Not just those voting. It should be a strong majority of all Bermudians. If you don't go out and vote, you are not "for" Independence.
I think its a good idea that they are going to Washington and UN. Will they be going to UK? It would be nice to have a more detailed view from UK. They should set down clear guidelines to the process before we go through it so that it isn't thrown out one way or another on a technicality which will upset one side or the other!

[Guilden M. Gilbert, Jr. on 18.02.05 at 13:44]

Ships,

Just wondering how you came up with 65%. I agree that it has be a majority of those eligible to vote (clear majority) as opposed to only those that actaully vote (simple majority).

The majority in any democractic process is any percentage that is above 50%, is it not? Majority is majority.

When you think it, about most organisations do not reach a quarum unless there are 67% of members present. Therefore, it could be argued the results of the 1995 referendum should not be considered null and void because there were only 58% of eligible woters that turned out to participate.

You probably would not agree with that because you do not favour Independence but if we believe in democracy and we are saying a General Election is not the democratic way to decide the issue, than we have to allow democracy to work, whcih is starting with the scales perfectly balanced, to be tipped only by one side outweighing the other. To sway the favour to one side or the other is not democratic, is it?

You can't have it both ways.

[Fornicator on 18.02.05 at 15:51]

"Good point about PLP vs. "pro-independence people " .... does that mean you support the PLP or are you pro-independence (or both)?"

Cahow,

I attempt to be anti bullshit, hypocrisy, greed and gross stupidity. Whether it is from either party, individuals or myself, I don't have much tolerance for it (it boils the blood).

I'm inclined to support the PLP due to the history of politics in Bermuda, and because IMO far too many UBP supporters still insist that the there was nothing wrong with the old UBP. I'm also led to give the UBP nothing more than UBP supporters are willing to give the PLP. If UBP supporters stopped reading malicious intent in every frigging thing the PLP does, I'd have greater reason to believe that they are not only interested in turning the clock back to 1998.

Yet, I don't have problems calling the PLP assholes when the cap fits either; I'm not about to support a rubbish PLP candidate; and I'm not going to reject a UBP candidate that is a positive addition to the political thought pool. That's the best way that I can describe my politics.

As my politics relates to independence, I don't have a burning desire for it, and I don't have much fear of it. I don't think the PLP has made an intelligent case to support it, and I think the UBP is masking latent/covert fear and venom over the issue. I'm looking forward to a referendum, but I have no hard position either way except that I don't believe the Government should have vaulted independence above things like public education and housing.