Come On, Gimme The Vote!

Royal Gazette Opinion, Thursday 5 May 2005

As you read this, the British are going to the polls to elect a new government.

They’re essentially being offered a choice between two men. One is Labour’s Tony Blair, a man who stole a 12-year-old doctoral thesis from the Internet to justify a war no-one wanted. The other is the Conservative’s Michael Howard, a man once described by one of his own MPs as having “something of the night” about him. It’s an uninspiring choice.

About the only thing the Conservatives have going for them is that they’re no longer being led by a moron. In Mr. Howard, they finally have a leader with the gravitas and experience necessary for you to be confident that he won’t ask “what does this button do?” while inspecting the country’s nuclear missile silos. Since Mr. Howard took charge, the Conservatives have closed the gap on Labour, although probably not by enough to win today.

Still, I couldn’t vote for him. The Conservatives were as keen to go and shoot up Iraq as Labour, and they seem to harbour a visceral hatred of anything foreign, be it the EU or those pesky asylum seekers. As kids they probably enjoyed using aerosols and cigarette lighters to set fire to spiders. Frightful bunch.

So who am I voting for, then? I’ll tell you: nobody.

Don’t get me wrong. It’s not because I’m cynical about British politics or the likelihood of my vote making a difference, although I am. I would dearly love to give Tony Blair a bloody nose for spending most of his second term as George Bush’s poodle. I don’t like to see grown men sniffing each other’s behinds, especially when it involves sending British troops into harm’s way for reasons that are as shabby as the American President’s sentence structure.

You see, although I can vote in UK elections for the next decade or so, I really shouldn’t be allowed to. The Inland Revenue may still be sending me tax returns (damn them!), but I own next to nothing in the UK any more and am essentially no longer paying any tax. I no longer use the hospitals or the public transport system (thank God) and if al-Qaeda detonates a dirty bomb in Trafalgar Square because Tony and George are such good mates, it’s not going to affect me. If they kick out all the immigrants so there’s no longer anyone willing to clean the toilets or wait tables, well, that’s not going to affect me either. Frankly, Britain can pretty much go to hell in a handbasket for all I care.

Realising this, lesser men might take the opportunity to play a huge practical joke on their countrymen. They might start up a worldwide network of Brits abroad, who, if they all voted as one, might be able to put the Official Monster Raving Loony Party into Number 10. But not me.

I’d just like to be able to vote in the country whose Government does make decisions that directly impact my life, where I do pay taxes. If a bunch of politicians are going to enrich themselves at my expense, I want a say in which bunch of politicians it’s going to be. And I see no reason why I should have to wait until I’ve been married to my wife for ten years to do so.

Oh, I know no-one agrees with me on this. Foreigners should consider themselves lucky they’re permitted to live here at all. Foreigners should be grateful that they’re allowed to publicly express their opinions, be it on a website or in a national newspaper. Foreigners need to understand that there are enough expats, spouses of Bermudians (love the acronym) and long-term residents that they could actually make a difference to the outcome of an election here (perish the thought). Foreigners need to understand that, as most of them are white, that would skew the elections towards the UBP, since it’s unreasonable to expect the PLP to do anything to appeal to white voters. Spouses of Bermudians need to understand that waiting ten years for a piece of paper is what demonstrates commitment to a country, not anything as trivial as marriage or where they choose to make their home.

And if those foreigners don’t like it, they can damn well go back to their own country.

I’m aware that other countries have similar restrictions on foreign voters (though it’s ironic that Bermudians living in the UK can vote in today’s election). That’s irrelevant. They’re wrong too.

What I’m talking about here is basic fairness. “No taxation without representation!” cried the advocates of American independence from Great Britain in the eighteenth century. Quite.

Give me the vote or give me back my taxes.

Comments

[JB on 05.05.05 at 10:14]

Ah cmon - BDA is the largest British colony now that HK has reverted, so DO vote in Blighty! As a former BDA resident/expat, no, I didnt get to vote when I lived in Bermuda, but you gotta vote, because what happens in Britain affects us all! And I personally think Michael Howard is really scary! Cheers mate, Jo Fox

[sayitaintso on 05.05.05 at 10:29]

"I no longer use the hospitals or the public transport system (thank God) and if al-Qaeda detonates a dirty bomb in Trafalgar Square because Tony and George are such good mates, it’s not going to affect me."

I will chalk this statement up to you trying to make a point. Or did I miss the sarcasm?

[Onion on 05.05.05 at 10:49]

Limey, what you are saying is that all rights that Bermudians have in the UK should be reciprical. In theory this might sound like a fair deal, but in reality it is neither practical or fair.

First of all Bermuda did not ask to be colonised by the UK. Our colonial status was thrust upon us (at least the former slaves). It has always been the duty of the Crown to ensure the well-being of its colonies. We are a country of 60,000 people. The UK has a population of 60 million. The few hundred Bermudians (if that!) who decide to exercise their vote in the UK will have a minute effect. Compare this to giving the 10,000 or so SOBs the right to vote in a country of only 60,000. Overnight the voting pool would be completely diluted. Politics would depend on which batch SOBs happen to be on the rock at the time.

A small island like Bermuda has to take precautionary steps to protect itself and its identity. For example, I could go to the US and start a company and own 100% of the shares. Should all US citizens be able to start a company in Bermuda and own 100% of the shares? We would not be able to compete.

Maybe 10 years is too long to wait. But it would be imprudent to allow any old Tom, Dick or Harry the right to vote after just hitching up. What about all the marriages of convenience? Immigration is already having a torrid time dealing with cases of spousal abuse and/or spouses just "jumping ship" after the papers have been signed.

In any event the tax you pay in Bermuda is peanuts compared with what you pay in places like the UK. Bermudians already feel alienated in the real estate and in the business world. At least our vote makes a difference. You want to dilute that too?

[shipstones on 05.05.05 at 10:50]

Limey,
You know that expats are now asked to "WAIVE" their International Rights and any rights that may accrue to them under Bermuda law!
This is what UN should be advising Bermuda on not Independence.
We might as well be back in Roman times as Plebians (not as bad as being a slave but only allowed to receive a pecuniary gain from work)

[shipstones on 05.05.05 at 11:04]

Onion,
Bermudians should stop just thinking of themselves.
Yes, scrutinize new expats coming to Bermuda, only let expats in where Bermudians are not available, advertise their jobs every few years, but recognize that once they are in they are fellow residents of Bermuda and afford them the usual rights of a resident and eventually citizenship if they get to stay here long enough i.e. they are needed by their employers. Let them change jobs at will if another employer hasw a greater need for them and they can get through immigration the usual way.
Bottom line you have to take the rough with the smooth and not disenfranchise law abiding residents.
By the way Calvin Smith has suggested removing time limits on immigration!

[Onion on 05.05.05 at 11:06]

Shipstones, you may not be aware that up until only about 4 years ago Bermudians:

1. had to wait in the "non-UK" line at Heathrow,

2. had to sign a waiver promising that they will not seek to practice law in UK upon graduation.

3. would rarely even be entertained for an entry-level job b/c companies loathed process of seeking a work permit.

Those Bermudians with dual citizenship would have never experienced this. Those who, like me, only have one piece of rock to call home, know what I am talking about.

[shipstones on 05.05.05 at 11:26]

Onion,
Let me take your e-mail step by step:

"Shipstones, you may not be aware that up until only about 4 years ago Bermudians:"

Yes I am aware of these points

"1. had to wait in the "non-UK" line at Heathrow"

Guess what have you seen the lines in Bermuda for non-residents? Including British visitors to this day!!!! No different! Or are you suggesting British citizens should be in resident line in Bermuda???

"2. had to sign a waiver promising that they will not seek to practice law in UK upon graduation."

In Bermuda you have to prove you have a place to stay and leave within three weeks!! If you are not a resident of Bermuda! Where is your point?

"3. would rarely even be entertained for an entry-level job b/c companies loathed process of seeking a work permit."

You are right! Why doesn't Bermuda do the same?

"Those Bermudians with dual citizenship would have never experienced this. Those who, like me, only have one piece of rock to call home, know what I am talking about."

But you could get British citizenship or would you rather remain avictim of your own mind?

Perhaps you are suggesting tightening immigration rules for new expats. I wouldn't disagree, but if they get in give them the same rights as expats in UK and don't limit there rights under current international and Bermuda law!

[Onion on 05.05.05 at 11:42]

Shipstones writes: "But you could get British citizenship or would you rather remain avictim of your own mind?"

What is with the aggravating comments? I did get UK citizenship. My point was that Bermuda not giving SOBs the right to vote is not out of step with the way other countries, including UK, have treated their colonial subjects. I mentioned the way we were regarded at Heathrow/Gathwick, as examples.

Simply having bilateral reciprocal relationships with countries like the US and the UK when it comes to the right to vote or work in the country w/out work permit is not a practical option for a tiny domain like Bermuda.

60 million vs 60,000.

[shipstones on 05.05.05 at 11:43]

BY the way UK had equivalent to Graeme, his name is Screaming Lord Such!

[Eric on 05.05.05 at 11:48]

Compare this to giving the 10,000 or so SOBs the right to vote in a country of only 60,000.

Wow! Are there really 10K SOBs? I could see there being 10K expats, but the 10K SOB figure seems a bit high.
The Limey is not suggesting all expats be allowed to vote, only the SOBs.

[shipstones on 05.05.05 at 11:52]

So you think citizens of colonies should be treated differently to other non-residents of UK at Heathrow?
Why shouldn't you treat British citizens better at immigration in Bermuda if that is the case?
What is your point?

I am not talking about bilateral agreements, I am talking about treating residents that have been allowed into Bermuda to be treated fairly, just the same as you would in UK or US if you were a expat there.

Plus you are no longer a victim and you still cling to old assumptions!

[shipstones on 05.05.05 at 11:53]

You get used to these exagerations Eric!

[Onion on 05.05.05 at 12:23]

Shipstones writes: "Plus you are no longer a victim and you still cling to old assumptions!"

"You get used to these exagerations Eric!"

I have absolutely no idea what you are talking about above. I never claimed to be a victim. Please tell me that once AGAIN you are not misquoting me. Please, please, not again.

As for your other comments above, British citizens have always been treated better than other expats. They have always been the "preferred" expat up until the last 15 years. Teachers, accountants, nurses, clergymen, lawyers, etc etc have all mostly come from UK (up until recently). When given a choice between them and a Jamaican, Philipino or even an American, the Englishman always go the nod.

Shipstones writes:

"So you think citizens of colonies should be treated differently to other non-residents of UK at Heathrow?
Why shouldn't you treat British citizens better at immigration in Bermuda if that is the case?
What is your point?"

My point is that due to its size Bermuda cannot offer reciprocal rights to UK citizens or anyone else for that matter. It does not seem fair to you? On the balance of harships UK citizens will fair better. We simply cannot afford to do it.

So Shipstones, do you think we should abandon the 60/40 rule altogether?

[John Steele on 05.05.05 at 12:35]

“No taxation without representation!” cried the advocates of American independence from Great Britain in the eighteenth century. Quite.

Give me the vote or give me back my taxes.

By this logic, any tourist who buys something in Bermuda should be eligible to vote, since they're paying (an albeit hidden) Bermuda consumption tax. (Since the duty levied on imported goods is passed through to the consumer.)

[shipstones on 05.05.05 at 12:40]

"Those who, like me, only have one piece of rock to call home, know what I am talking about."

Your words Onion. Sounds like a victim to me! But you have British citizenship, don't understand!

Eric says there are not 10,000 SOB's in Bermuda as you claim! EXAGERATION ONION

Why should UK treat Bermudians any better than other non-residents at the airport?
You want better treatment but you can't afford to do it in Bermuda? That's how you've been brought up. "What's yours abnd what's mine is my own!" An old saying that seems to fit!
This could hold for all the other benefits you get from other countries particularly US, that you can't give back. I really feel sorry for the Bermudians plight! Sob! Sob!
Misquote my arse!

Continue to avoid the ussue Onion, I will follow you wherever you take us!

[shipstones on 05.05.05 at 12:47]

60/40 rule?
Lets stick to rights of residents of Bermuda!

[ace-girl on 05.05.05 at 12:54]

Point of this article is well taken but really not practical nor in line with other nations. You will find the same restrictions should you chose to move to the Cayman Is. Therefore, Bermuda's protectionism is pretty consistent with other colonies. And, like Bermuda, Cayman has benefited from being a colony in many similar areas. The fact is that we get a better deal than the Caymanians currently do with the passport rights et al...

If I wanted to marry a man in the middle east and stay there, I would have to make the choice of losing many rights and being seen as a 2nd class citizen and essentially that's what SOBs have to do if they have the nerve to marry one of us... at least that 2nd class citizenship only lasts 10 years... it's a lifetime for women in the middle east.

The abuses going on now with "marriages" have almost overwhelmingly been from Jamaican men and they are jumping ship long before the 10 years. The problem is that it does not seems to be affecting their work permit status in a timely manner and they marry here and disappear...Quite frankly I think that any expat who can remain married to one of us (well, to me) for over ten years deserves all the rights he can get, if he survives the intervening period!!

[Shark on 05.05.05 at 12:56]

Just voted and I voted for labour.

Reason? Well Tony Blair will be gone early into labours 3rd term and Gordon Brown will take over and they have done a good job of getting the country out of the state the conservatives left it in.

The conservatives are out of date and have moved to the far right and the Liberal democrats have nothing to say and just cling onto their only strength...their opposition to the Iraq war.

UKIP are noting but nationalists and the BNP are just nazis with a different name. I don’t trust respect as though they say they are against the war there leader congratulated Sadam and praised him before the war hypocrite) and the GREENS well I don’t like fringe parties as while they have good ideas (on the environment) they will never form a government so why waste my vote on them.

Tomaro it is likely Labour will still be in power but with a smaller majority. The Liberals might be the opposition party or the conservatives will still be. The greens will probably get their first MP also.

[Eric on 05.05.05 at 13:39]

Eric says there are not 10,000 SOB's in Bermuda as you claim! EXAGERATION ONION

I didn't say there aren't 10,000 SOBs here, but more that I just didn't know what the number was - but felt 10K sounded high to me.

Even if 10,000 is high and the number of SOBs was something low like 300 - the same sort of argument would still apply to Bermuda. After all with such a small voting population (not all of that 60-65K can vote, and of the 20-30K who can, not all of those do vote), the deciding votes at the end might be just a handful in key areas (which was exactly what we saw this last time).

So if you wanted to make the argument that the SOBs, however many there are, will vote in a way that you don't like and this will negatively impact citizens here - then it is still a valid point.

I was also interested in whether or not that was meant to be SOBs or expats since the latter seemed more likely with that figure, and the expats voting is entirely different than SOBs.

Along the same lines, trying to refute the taxaction without representation concept by bringing in tourists to the equation is just silly. Nobody is suggesting such things and limiting it to SOBs who live on the island and therefore are directly affected by the outcome of the vote is an entirely different animal than something as general as anyone paying taxes.
Then again, with no mandatory income tax, that line of argument might not be all that great anyway.

[The Limey on 05.05.05 at 13:46]

sayitaintso

Obviously I was exaggerating to make a point. If a dirty bomb went off in London today it would be a cause of great shock and sadness to me. However there's no longer any chance of it killing me.

Onion

As I made clear in my column, I understand the arguments against giving SOBs the vote perfectly well. I even sympathise with some of them. Perhaps they are necessary, but let's not pretend that they're fair.

If any country wanted to treat its tax-paying foreign residents fairly it would give them the same voting rights as nationals and simply limit the numbers it allows in. Bermuda's no exception. It's small size means it would just have to let fewer in if it didn't want them to be a factor in elections.

Of course, if it did that there wouldn't be enough to sustain international business, the exempt companies would leave and the standard of living here would collapse. Given the expats are preventing this, I would have thought the least you can do is give those who are here for any length of time them a vote in return. And that's not just the SOBs. I'd also include the holders of the PRCs (who have been here for at least 20 years) and any expat who has a work permit valid for five or more years (the term of a Government).

As for marriages of convenience, they are already illegal. Giving SOBs the vote wouldn't add to the problem as no-one is going to marry a Bermudian just to be able to vote in an election here.

And 10,000 SOBs? I don't think so.

John

You're right. If it doesn't already have one, Bermuda should institute a scheme similar to that in the UK where foreign visitors can reclaim the VAT they pay in the stores.

[Bill Cook on 05.05.05 at 13:49]

Bermuda was settled not colonised in the sense that there was an indigenous people here as with the Carib Indians down south.

It therefore is idiotic to suggest that "BERMUDA" did not ask to be colonised.

With regard to the present population it is my opinion that the vast majority of them did not arrive in chains as indentured whites, American Indians or African blacks in slavery, but to seek employment much as I did almost 50 yrs ago.

Limey if you think its tough with regard to restrictions it was worse not so long ago.

Even if you had no representation you could not send out all the money you earned as there were restrictions even on non Bermudians.

When my mother died and I was responsible for the funeral expenses I tried to get permission to send the money over for this but was told I had already used up most of my allowance.
Finally they agreed I could use up part of next yrs allowance. I still have the letter from the monetary authority.

I once lost my permission to work letter coming in to Bermuda after I was here 25 yrs and the Police were called to sort it out.

It is all part of lifes colorful tapestry you know.

The term of 10 yrs to get basic rights after being married to a Bermudian is silly esp. as you could have possibly 3 children by then and not have a say in their future etc. It needs reviewing

[Onion on 05.05.05 at 15:07]

Shipstones,

You have anger management issues. I recommend you find a shrink who specializes in senility.

Limey,

I would not be against giving SOBs a right to vote. I just don't think they should get it as soon as they are married. I agree that long-term residents should be able to vote. I strongly disagree with giving work permit holders on 5 year terms the right to vote. I don't know of many countries where I can go and live for 5 years and be able to vote.

I mean let's be real. What is "fair"? A country has gotta do what it's gotta do to protect itself. The US, the UK and most countries have LOADS of protectionist policies that may not seem fair but are deemed necessary to protect certain domestic industries. The same goes for their foreign policies.

I ask the question for the third time. Should we disband the 60/40 rule altogether, simply b/c I can go to US or UK and own a company out right?

Should we not let any nationality own property at any value in Bermuda because that's how it is in other countries? I say that a country that is 21 sq miles and has a population of 60,000 cannot afford to just open its arms to the world and let all and sundry have a say in who runs this tiny island.

[CB on 05.05.05 at 15:29]

Until 1976, expats (over 21) were able to vote in Bda after 3 years of residency.

At the time, they could also apply for Bda Status after 5 years.

[Onion on 05.05.05 at 15:38]

"Until 1976, expats (over 21) were able to vote in Bda after 3 years of residency.

At the time, they could also apply for Bda Status after 5 years."

The political effects of this policy were enormous. If such a policy existed today how would either government (PLP or UBP) be trusted to be objective in their immigration policies?

[H Reardon on 05.05.05 at 15:51]

"I say that a country that is 21 sq miles and has a population of 60,000 cannot afford to just open its arms to the world and let all and sundry have a say in who runs this tiny island."

Posted by: Onion | 05.05.05 15:07

Onion, reread Limey's post above. He is talking about the people who have made a commitment to this island--people who do the living and dying and tax paying on this rock. Your wait times at Gatwick or the 60/40 rule are not relevant--maybe you should refill that A.D.D. prescription.

Let me ask it more direct. As an expat (not SoB) who has been here for 6 years and paid a signifcant amount of taxes during that time, why should I not have the right to have a say in how those taxes are spent?

[Onion on 05.05.05 at 16:11]

Reardon,

I was responding to this comment from Shipstones to show that Bermudians living in or visiting UK were never afforded rights on par with those of a UK citizen:

"You know that expats are now asked to "WAIVE" their International Rights and any rights that may accrue to them under Bermuda law!"

[Pitts Bay on 05.05.05 at 16:26]

I agree with Onion on this one. I am not in favour of a temporary resident of Bermuda having a say in our political future - even if they do pay taxes. The international business sector is free to lobby who they see fit, and can influence legislation and policy that way - but work permit holders should not be entitled to vote.

PRC's most probably should have a vote, maybe also SOBs who have been resident and married for 5+ years. Maybe the 7/10 rule should be changed to 5/5. However, just because someone has had a work permit for 6 years (Reardon) does not (and should not) entitle someone to vote, particularly in a small community like Bermuda.

Bermuda status affords you only a couple of rights: (1) Voting; and (2) Ownership of any real property. If you take out the voting issue, that leaves ownership of any real property.

Bermuda Status is a right that certain people have been acquired as of right or by grant. Such rights should not be diluted by the arguments of a small minority.

The "no taxation without representation" argument sounds well and good, and is the supposed basis for US independence - BUT even the US does not do that - my sister is married to a US citizen and pays taxes, but she is not allowed to vote.

This issue will not change as respect a plain work permit holder (PRCs and SOB's may need to be addressed as indicated above)

[terry on 05.05.05 at 16:32]

Mr. Pitts Bay, your sister needs to become an American Citizen. Simple as that. She then has the Voting right. Until then, dats all folks.

Terry.
Ps. I got mine, so I can vote.

[Pitts Bay on 05.05.05 at 16:40]

Just as SOB's, PRCs and work permit holders need to get status before they can vote in Bermuda!! - Simple as that.

[H Reardon on 05.05.05 at 16:53]

Terry is right, Pitts your sister must not be a US citizen. By virtue of her marriage, she is entitled to citizenship and therefore the right to vote.

"Bermuda Status is a right that certain people have been acquired as of right or by grant. Such rights should not be diluted by the arguments of a small minority."

Posted by Pitts Bay.

I'm not sure what that means. Please explain.

The question I don't believe anyone has answered adequately is "why not?" If the answer is simply "because I do have that right, and by giving that right to you as well, my influence is diminished and further it is unlikely you will agree with me on the issues," then I believe that is a very poor argument, although honest.

[Bill Cook on 05.05.05 at 17:03]

I dont think its correct to say that any EX PAT could vote prior to 1976.

In the first instance I think they had to be British and up to a period had to own property.

It would seem proper and fair that those here on work permits for the requisite period shoud have a voice within government even if they are unable to vote regardless of nationality.

There are organisations set uo theoritically to protect against discrimination but as witnessed in the firing of LTR DR Connell that some are deeply flawed.

Limey you were not here when the meetings to decide whether or not to grant Status to LTR but you would have had a chance to witness unadulterated hatred at its very worst.

If Jesus who was after all an ex pat had attended they would have crucified him all over again.

Paula Cox felt it was a good way for Bermudians to let off steam, and clear the air.

[Tiger Bay on 05.05.05 at 17:10]

The Cayman Islands population declined in the wake of hurricane Ivan. There has been public discussion there recently, covered in the media, about how they can recruit top expat executives and retain the best through permanent residency in order to reinforce their position as a top offshore jurisdiction.

Different song, huh?

[terry on 05.05.05 at 17:19]

Jesus was not an ex-pat, Mr. Cook. He was and is the Sone of God. He came to save us from all this garbage that is floating around. HE had papers for all countries, passports etc. His documentaion was above reproach. It's just that people did not believe, and still don't. What you have said makes me feel like you need to apoligise and say a prayer. The way you talk, you seem to have a knowledge of the past and what he did. He can save you, can you save yourself?

See you on Judgement day, believe it or not.

TerryXXXXX

[Bill Cook on 05.05.05 at 17:36]

Terry,
I beleive Jesus qualifies as an ex pat leaving his home in Heaven to come to earth.

He did what he came to do and returned.

I of course am an Agnostic and hopefully a Humanist.

I however come from a long religious background studied theology was selected for the Priesthood but it did not appeal to me back then and even less so now.

I only mentioned it in this context ref. ex pats as I thought it apropo.

[The Limey on 05.05.05 at 17:36]

Pitts Bay

The difference, of course, is that in the US, a spouse of an American can apply for citizenship after only 3 years.

What's more, anyone who has lived there for 5 years as a permanent resident is able to apply for citizenship after those 5 years are up.

See page 17 of the US Government's A Guide To Naturalization for details.

[Pitts Bay on 05.05.05 at 17:50]

Reardon

I am no expert on US Immigration Law, but I was not aware that simply being a SOA (Spouse of an American) automatically gave you the right to US citizenship. A Green Card, certainly, since that is what she has. Please enlighten me.

The US does have some funny laws regarding immigration - for instance my son was born in the US for medical reasons. He automatically became a US Citizen. When he was born I checked with US Immigration lawyers to see whether I, as his parent, could renounce it for him then and there. But that is not possible. He has to wait until he is 18 to make the choice, and be subject to US tax on his worldwide earnings, all because he is an "accidental American". Not my preference, but I suppose he does have a US & an EU Passport now, and that does open up possibilities in the future. Wow, maybe as he is a US Citizen I can get US citizenship as well - I THINK NOT!

On the matter of the dilution of rights, as a person with Bermuda status there are a bundle of rights that I have that non-Bermudians do not have - these rights are limited. If we were to allow work permit holders, PRC's and SOBs to vote in a general election the relative value of my vote is diluted. It does not matter whether such additional votes would vote the same as me or not, the net effect would be that my vote would be diluted. Whether you think that is a poor argument or not does not bother me in the slightest. I would hazard a guess that if the shoe was on the other foot many of the people on this thread would take the same position. I would further hazard a guess that most Bermudians would take the same view as me.

Before someone jumps down my throat, the issue of PRCs and SOBs (after a certain period of marriage/residence) should be addressed. But that is an entirely different position to that of an ordinary work permit holder.

[Pitts Bay on 05.05.05 at 18:01]

Limey

Don't get me wrong, I think the SOB rules should be rationalized. I think that 3 years is too short, but I think 5 years marriage + 5 years residence is fair.

On the ability in the US to apply for citizenship after 5 years residency. That can clearly have no application to Bermuda. We have a very small landmass that has a housing problem already. Allowing automatic citizenship/status after a fixed term of residence would be disaterous. I can not see how that can be in the best interests of Bermudians as a whole, and government should always act in the best interests of Bermudians as a whole (although some may argue that the PLP doesn't).

PRC's were negotiated because until 1989 there was a legitimate expectation that it was possible to obtain a discretionary grant of status. That has not been possible since 1989 and accordingly anyone who became resident post 1989 should not, as a matter of right, be entitled to a vote &/or Bermuda status purely by reason of such residence.

[Bill Cook on 05.05.05 at 18:34]

Pitts,

The whole matter of status who gets to vote etc.would be better addressed if we used statistics and had numbers to work with.

What we dont know is how many Brmudians leave Bermuda to live else where.

Many students who study outside Bermuda do not return for a variety of reasons possibly job opportunity and in case of seniors many just cant afford to retire here.

What is especially disturbing is that really valuable people such as skilled doctors teachers detectives and recently the case with Rev. Tilson that this calibre of resident is lumped with everyone else.

Frankly I think some cosideration should be given to valuable people.

Its a little early to be sure but Limejuice seems like a welcome addition in my opinion !!

Granting status should therefore have some balance with this.

[Pitts Bay on 05.05.05 at 19:15]

Bill

I do think that in certain circumstances the discretionary grant of Bermuda status would be a useful mechanism to reward people who have contributed to Bermuda, or to correct unfortunate anomolies brought about by the Bda Immigration and Protection Act.

I have a client who was adopted as a baby by Bermudian parents. He considered that he was Bermudian for much of his formative years. He left Bermuda when he was 18 to go to school and did not really reside here until he was about 30. Upon returning to Bermuda with a new bride, he applied for a Spouse's Letter for his new wife. He was promptly told that he did not have Status so his new wife could not get a Spouse's Letter. It appears that between the ages of 18-22 (the only time period that an adopted child can actually apply for status) he never considered that he had to actually apply for status. Everyone, including the Department of Immigration, the relevent Minister etc. honestly felt very sorry for this person, BUT, because there was no scope in the Act to grant him status (i.e. a discretionary grant) is was not possible for him to have status. I believe the only solution was to grant him a work permit, which is not really satisfactory.

In situations like this, and people who have positively contibuted to Bermuda (i.e. someone like Rev Tilson), then there should be a mechanism to grant this right. HOWEVER this is not same as an automatic right simply because you are resident. Another "problem" with the discretionary grant is that it can be abused for political means - there is much speculation that the UBP "rewarded" their supporters in this way.

[big bad wolf on 05.05.05 at 20:13]

Ships Lord Sutch is dead----and I'm no screaming Looney!!! Bermuda should grant citzenship to expats that have lived in Bermuda three years based on outward Bermudian numbers moving to other countries. Say it is shown by our Immigration figures for the year showed 100 Bermudians had emigrated abroad then 100 applicants could be entertained for Bermudian status. Numbers would be adjusted on the tracked patterns of Bermudian emigration.The NLP has always had a more enlightened policy in Immigration and emigration than the other larger parties. Ships take your Wig off..its having a big impact on your thinking ability. Blonde just does'nt suit you ^..^

[Jeff on 05.05.05 at 20:48]

"As an expat (not SoB) who has been here for 6 years and paid a signifcant amount of taxes during that time, why should I not have the right to have a say in how those taxes are spent?"

Why should you have the same rights to decide Bermuda's future as do the generations of Bermudian families who have paid taxes and built this country to what it is today? You think that by paying "significant taxes" you should be entitled to vote, the highest privilege of citizen ship? Ha! Don't make me choke on my beer. You haven't even remotely earned that right. Yet we are supposed to give you equal hold on the reigns of our country? Are you insane? Even those Bermudians who trample on their responsibilities day in and day out are due more say in their future than a passerby such as yourself. By law you lose the right to vote if you are jailed for merely failing to pay a traffic ticket. If it can be taken away so easily, what makes you think that it will gained for a petty reason like paying taxes for six years? Give me a break.

[Onion on 05.05.05 at 20:50]

No expat on a work permit should be granted the right to vote in Bermuda - period!

I would be sooner in favour of granting status to SOBs, say, within 5 years and letting them vote, before giving the right to work permit holders. I frankly don't care what they do in the US. I repeat, Bermuda is too small to give out these rights like candy.

Limey mentioned in his opening message:

"Foreigners need to understand that, as most of them are white, that would skew the elections towards the UBP, since it’s unreasonable to expect the PLP to do anything to appeal to white voters."

I wonder how everyone's sentiments would be on this issue if most of our expats came from the Caribbean and Africa. Just a thought. (Remember, I am only RESPONDING to Limey's opening message.)

[Onion on 05.05.05 at 21:02]

Jeff, you have hit the nail on the head.

Significant taxes? Give me a break. What you reap in tax benefits far out-weights your tax burden. I'll take payroll tax over NY State tax, NY City tax and federal tax any day.

If something terrible were to happen to this country most expats would be gone in a heart beat. Don't believe me? Look at Cayman Island, post Hurricane Ivan. The Regiment went there to do a relief effort last year and I can tell you that many expats didn't even bother to sell their belongings. They just got on a plane and abandoned ship. The Caymanians remained there throughout the clean up.

But I am not at all surpised. Do you honestly believe that someone who resides in a place like Cayman or Bermuda for 3-5 years actually cares enough about the well-being of that place beyond their $100k+ tax free salary?

And if they do vote, what would they be voting for? More rights for expats!

[Pitts Bay on 05.05.05 at 21:14]

Jeff & Onion

Well said!!

[Bill Cook on 05.05.05 at 22:41]

Onion,

In a perfect world everyone would try to balance the percentage of the races in Bermuda

At present the proportion is app. 70% 30% non whites vs whites so until that balance is met why worry if it seems that more whites than non whites are trying for status.

If those old time whites had been as clever as they are supposed to be they wouyld have addressed this when they had the control, not too bright in my book !!

[shipstones on 06.05.05 at 00:30]

Onion,
"Should we not let any nationality own property at any value in Bermuda because that's how it is in other countries? I say that a country that is 21 sq miles and has a population of 60,000 cannot afford to just open its arms to the world and let all and sundry have a say in who runs this tiny island."

Limey and I agree with you on this!
BUT
The limitation on expats should be on entry to Bermuda. Let fewer in is the answer to your problem.
This would then allow expats to have the rights that they deserve in a time frame that reflects their commitment to the island (say 5 years).
However you would not have any dishwashers, maids, waiters and nanny's.
You would have to limit expats to those who demonstrably provided a benefit as opposed to filling up the island!
This then takes us to sustainable development and balancing Bermudians rights with the need to prosper and those of legal immigrants who are fellow "residents" of the island.
Read Human rights papers etc. you will find the concensus is for equal rights to all.
Not the chosen few whether they be black white or Bermudian!
Loading the dice in your favour has worked so far but the hour glass is running out.
See HSBC!
How can a Bermudian company compete with Walmart?
They can't, so your solution is protect Bermuda businesses and to hell with Bermudian consumers, just pay through the nose!
The hotels are not 60/40!!
The construction companies have close affiliation to overseas companies and I suggest a bigger portion than 40% of profits go to them!
Most of the beautiful properties in Bermuda have been sold by Bermudians to foriegners, but regular Bermudians are not afforded that right and thus stay cash poor when they could sell their houses for more to foreigners and live like kings elsewhere! Believe me there are more doing it than you think already!
There are never any statistics published regarding emmigration! Why is that?
All this goes against your theory of keeping Bermuda for Bermudians. Hell half the island has gone already! Rich Bermudians sold it!
Globalisation means just that!
Even China recognises this and is slowly allowing foreign investors in.

What names this time Onion? A senile alcaholic not enough?

I will continue to quote you verbatim Onion! You will still say I misquoted you!

[Jeff on 06.05.05 at 07:30]

"The limitation on expats should be on entry to Bermuda. Let fewer in is the answer to your problem. This would then allow expats to have the rights that they deserve in a time frame that reflects their commitment to the island (say 5 years). However you would not have any dishwashers, maids, waiters and nanny's.
You would have to limit expats to those who demonstrably provided a benefit as opposed to filling up the island!"

I've never read something so ridiculous - expats are here because they are already providing a benefit. If we want to grow this economy to provide broader opportunities for Bermudians, then you do not have a choice about how many people you are going to bring in unless you get Bermudians to increase the birthrate. You can't have an expanding economy without an increasing reliance on foreign workers, but nationality is a completely different issue. "Allow expats the rights they deserve?" Excuse me? Who determines the rights they deserve? What exactly is fair? A foreign deserves no rights in a foreign country except that of basic human rights. Everything else is determined on a country by country basis, as the people of that country see fit. What works for America cannot be universally applied to every other country (thank heavens). Expats are here to make a better life. If not giving them citizenship in 5 years was such an unfair deal, they wouldn't be coming here in the first place. Can't they be satisfied with living in a wonderful country, making boatloads of money and having all but a handful of rights that are reserved for Bermudians?

[Bill Cook on 06.05.05 at 08:17]

Ships,

You are correct there are no figures regarding Bermudians leaving to live elsewhere, but I do know that many who got status have done so like ex police who have served long enough to get a good pension and find it economically better elsewhere else, Canada is a popular choice.

If you take a look at properties sold to non Bermudians it appears that very many if not most return in time to Bermudians, but this may be changing.

In my opinion no non Bermudians should be allowed to own freehold only leasehold to protect Bermuda, and I would include hotel property.

This would also apply to banks and other institutions, leasehold only

[Shark on 06.05.05 at 08:32]

well if anyones interested Labour have won a third. And like I said it is with a vastly reducehed majority of 60-71% compared to there over 95% majority they had in 2001. What dose this mean? well Labour will finialy have to listen to the poeple of the UK as they no longer have a majority were the can push in any legisaltion they want without having to listen to everybody.

The Conservatices look like the opostion again as they have actully made gains from Labour.

What im mad at is that, that silly hypocrit George Galloway and his RESPECT Party took Bethal, Bow and Green from Labour. He says hes aginst the war but openly praised Sadam before the war so i say again (hypocrit) he only won because he played to the anti-war sentiment of the lage Bangledeh and Muslim popolation.

The Lib dems are sitting good on like 61-69 seats with gains from bothe Labour and conservatives.

Already many are saying how could Labour get in with so much anti-Labour fealing...well that the first past the post system.

[ruby tuesday on 06.05.05 at 09:20]

I recall this site used to engender some imaginative and interesting discourse but it has just degenerated into an overly simplistic slanging match between tedious illiterates.