Open Mike: The Former Baselands

Another chance to talk about a subject of your choice.

First comment sets the subject for debate. If you raise a question, please provide your own thoughts too, even if it's in a subsequent comment.

Update: Adjustah says:

"Supposedly, "the Company has spent approximately $6.5 million for environmental remediation work, e.g. asbestos abatement, material, debris and tank removal and site cleaning."

And yet they have still not been able to develop the area at Morgan's Point yet, while the former Kindley Field is slowly being turned into an industrial area.

Didn't we stupidly settle up for $11M only a few years ago? And where's our Bermudian spirit? If there's even an acre of open land we'll build a golf course on it or cram some condo's in there..."

Comments

[Adjustah on 24.08.05 at 08:08]

Baselands cleanup?

[Adjustah on 24.08.05 at 08:12]

Supposedly, "the Company has spent approximately $6.5 million for environmental remediation work, e.g. asbestos abatement, material, debris and tank removal and site cleaning."

And yet they have still not been able to develop the area at Morgan's Point yet, while the former Kindley Field is slowly being turned into an industrial area.

Didn't we stupidly settle up for $11M only a few years ago? And where's our Bermudian spirit? If there's even an acre of open land we'll build a golf course on it or cram some condo's in there...

[Tiger Bay on 24.08.05 at 08:21]

A large portion of Morgan's Point (Naval Annex)should be turned into a park. Areas that are developed should include bicycle and jogging trails.

[Curried Goat on 24.08.05 at 08:52]

I used to love going to Morgan's Point when I was a kid. I remember an old disused crematorium there, with an operating theatre and all morgue (sp?) very creepy!!! Apart from being very dirty, it was as if it were just left as it was, ready for the next Post Mortum. That was a looooong time ago. Anyone remember that?

[Adjustah on 24.08.05 at 09:07]

Morgan's Point was always great for training the Regiment as it was, for all intents and purposes, a full working town. Great for I.S. training - working everything, cinema, clubs, built up housing areas, etc. As for creepy, yeah...it's like an episode of Scooby Doo.

The real dissapoinment has been with the old Kindley Field. It's not bad, but there has been no sense of urgency with the development. The real shame is the hospital. When the US pulled out that place was like Aladdin's Cave. All that were missing were the people. A missed opportunity indeed.

[Full_Fullish on 24.08.05 at 10:00]

Good topic! There is so much land there, and so much we can do with it. I think it should be divided up, say half of it for housing, quarter for business' or business' wharehouses and the rest for parks or recreational activities.

[loki on 24.08.05 at 10:32]

The sad thing is that I have personally seen quite a lot of perfectly usable housing at Morgan's Point, in surprisingly good condition, too.

[ours on 24.08.05 at 11:23]

I'm not sure of their condition when the US pulled out but it seems that houses and even apartments at Morgan's Point were handed back to Bermuda on a platter and we did nothing. Now we are crying out for affordable housing.

[Adjustah on 24.08.05 at 11:56]

Methinks that there were issues about the houses there not being built "up to code": i.e. they would not withstand a hurricane etc. However, even after Fabian, the houses are still there and only seem to suffer now from neglect.

[Anon on 24.08.05 at 12:03]

I've been up at the annex for Regiment and as far as I can tell, almost _no_ buildings are in good repair. Perhaps its because they wre left too long without maintenance and exposed to weather and vandals? Or perhaps they were on their way down anyway?

[loki on 24.08.05 at 12:08]

Anon

Not sure what area of the annex you were in, but I can assure you that there are plenty of houses down there that look like they were abandoned not long ago. There are definitely some areas where the undergrowth has completely taken over, but most of the houses that I have seen recently look to be in very good condition, all things considered.

[Somers on 24.08.05 at 12:32]

I heard they used brackish water to mix the concrete when the buildings were originally constructed - and now the rebar is popping in the walls, making it for an unsafe dwelling. But still - it is pretty easy to drive a bulldozer through them and build something else, isn't it?

[Somers on 24.08.05 at 12:35]

and 6.5 million spent so far??? Um, where did all that money go???

If they are handing out money without seeing any progress, heck give me $2 million and I will take my chainsaw & wheelbarrow up there...

[Copper on 24.08.05 at 12:37]

The most important thing that needs to be done is for the government to clean up the land. Nobody wants to develop an area when there are huge up front cost for environmental clean up and the associated delay in starting any kind of development and the eventual return on invesment.

Secondly - DO NOTHING WITHOUT A MASTER PLAN!!! Idiots in charge get this huge piece of land and then they start slicing off pieces. Oh, we'll do this with this little piece and then will do that with that piece, with no consideration on how these things will sit and interact with each other. In the end the whole place looks like they through darts at a map.

And when I say a master plan, one done by urban planners and architects, not bureaucrats.

[Pitts Bay on 24.08.05 at 12:43]

There are some amazing houses down there. The old commodore's house is great. It has (or had) beautiful cedar lined den/library. Cedar staircase etc. Also a great cave at the back that would make a perfect wine cellar. Currently sitting empty and greatly reduced in value now that the ferry is right next door.

On top of the hill above the Commodore's house is another great house. Very old (rumoured to be one of the older houses in Bermuda) with great old cedar lined rooms etc etc.

I went through these houses when the tenders were out for the development of Morgan's Point. They were in great shape then and I would have loved to have bought one of these two.

On the matter of the remediation of the environmental damage. The potential investors had earmarked $35M to the environmental remediation (this was before construction etc. ) However, this all came to a head soon after 1998.

My feeling was that the new PLP government did not want anyone developing this land who had not been appointed or nominated by themselves. Accordingly they wasted no time in personally insulting various representatives of the finanacing behind that project, and who accordingly took the view that they wanted nothing to do with Bermuda!!

Since then it has all fallen into disrepair.

I do not think that the PLP would be so stupid now that they have been in government for 7 years, but when the were first elected, it is my impression that they cleared anything that could be connected to the UBP - and todays result is the derelict land at Morgan's Point.

[Phil on 24.08.05 at 13:13]

Can someone help me understand why on earth Bermuda would accept $11m for the repair of Longbird bridge in return for not claiming against the US for any cleanup of the former baselands?

I'm appalled that

1. The Americans didn't have the grace and integrity to offer to clean up the mess themselves before they left,

2. The UK would allow them to get away without doing so, and

3. That Bermuda would acquiesce to such a sell-out too.

What am I missing?

[loki on 24.08.05 at 13:21]

"Can someone help me understand why on earth Bermuda would accept $11m for the repair of Longbird bridge"

......which was not actually used for said repair of bridge.

[SmokingGun on 24.08.05 at 13:31]

"My feeling was that the new PLP government did not want anyone developing this land who had not been appointed or nominated by themselves. Accordingly they wasted no time in personally insulting various representatives of the finanacing behind that project, and who accordingly took the view that they wanted nothing to do with Bermuda!!

Since then it has all fallen into disrepair." Posted by Pitts Bay.

My sentiments exactly. I remember as a kid going to Morgan's Point and playing baseball with some of the kids. (I sucked by the way, couldn't catch with a glove.) Couldn't believe that the island's leaders looked a gift horse in the mouth and blew a massive opportunity to utilize the property rapidly.

They could easily have set up a vacation village where families could come down and rent weekly or monthly for vacations. Create summer camps for Bermuda's kids. They could have used some of the housing for foreign workers, ie waitstaff. All they had to do was maintain a status qou so the place didn't deteriorate whilst they worked on the master plan.

But going back to Pitts Bay's point. I honestlty don't think our current government really ever felt that they were/are going to be around for the long haul. Therefore why not set it up so you can get a nice peice of the pie on a personal level. It all harks back to our politicians are too often tempted to take advantage of their positions because they have other interests. A very sad commentary but I will confess I am very skeptical about many of our leaders, both yesterday's and todays.

[SmokingGun on 24.08.05 at 13:38]

Limey, I have a sneaking feeling that the US simply said "take it or leave it" with a side comment to the effect of; "we'll close up that little tax loophole that you've become to rely so heavily on."

[Adjustah on 24.08.05 at 13:46]

Sadly enough, I don't think we can assign partisan blame here - as I recall the BLDC was equally apathetic under both parties.

That being said, the acceptance of the $11M price-tag was done on the latter's watch. But seriously, what advice would anyone have been given to accept such a low settlement?

Also, for the UK to wash it's hands of this mess, which they created when they allowed the leasing of the land during the war, was ridiculous.

[Guilden M. Gilbert , Jr. on 24.08.05 at 13:59]

Limey,

"1. The Americans didn't have the grace and integrity to offer to clean up the mess themselves before they left,

2. The UK would allow them to get away without doing so, and

3. That Bermuda would acquiesce to such a sell-out too.

What am I missing?"

You aren't missing anything.

1. Bermuda is not the first or the last place the US military has left or will leave with contamination without cleaning up. They are the world's leaders and they will do as they darn well please to do and there is nothing you can do about.

2. Just goes to show how important Bermuda and its affairs are to the UK versus its relationship with the US. If there is no benefit to the UK what occurs in Bermuda and for that matter the other territories matters not to them.

3. Please refer to No. 1.

[Andrew on 24.08.05 at 14:56]

Maybe the Yanks are just getting even for someone failing to properly extinguish their smoking materials at the Whitehouse in 1812...

[on 24.08.05 at 15:20]

"Also, for the UK to wash it's hands of this mess, which they created when they allowed the leasing of the land during the war, was ridiculous."

Maybe they felt it would oppress the black Bermudian.

[ace on 24.08.05 at 15:46]

America is the world's "firefighter". They go in, spray lots of water about and leave a big mess.

Look at the state they left their bases in the Phillipines.

Disgraceful.

[on 24.08.05 at 15:59]

"America is the world's "firefighter". "

Actually, by their own definition, they are the worlds terrorists.

It is their official policy to ignore the environmental damage they've caused, in other countries, as long as there is no immediate threat to american citizens.

[Luthor on 24.08.05 at 16:34]

I have heard some horrifying first hand accounts of the PLP's handling of the negotiations all culminating in the pro-independence party asking the "mother country" England to take over the negotiations for them!

At the end of the day all we got was $11 million and a mess that we will be stuck with for years to come

[Martin on 24.08.05 at 17:40]

I am slightly surprised that we are blaming the UK.

If (and I say "if") it is true that the UK had to take over the negotiations, why?

Here we are poised...at least in the minds of many for Independence - and we can't manage a negotiation of this type.

Amazing.

Guess it's appropriate to blame the UK.

[Pitts Bay on 24.08.05 at 18:05]

My understanding is that the United States military accepts no liability for any evnironmental damages on any base outside the United States. As Ace pointed out, their record in the Philippines is terrible, and the fact that they refused to contribute to the clean in Bermuda is just a continuation of that policy.

On US bases within the US, they have been found liable and have been made to clean up their mess.

Clear double standards - like Pat Robertson calling for the assination of Hugo Chavez. If an Iraqi cleric (of equal standing to Robertson) called for the assination of George Bush, all hell would break loose! (I know, off topic!!)

[Shree Cents on 24.08.05 at 18:05]

Let us first remember that neither political party UBP or PLP actually had the power to negotiate with the U.S. government. The original lease was between the governmants of the United States and the U.K. so we really had nothing to do with the far to little 11 million dollar settelement. The P.L.P. government tried in it limited way to negotiate with the U.S. with very little sucess. Remember folks we are still a colony....dah. With respect to simply moving people into the vacant houses after the Americans pulled, out let us not forget that the land and some building were and still are contaminated.....gallons of spent oil, gallons gallons of raw sewage and God knows how much asbestos and spent jet fuel, not a pertty picture. Of course the military could and did house people in such conditions. Who has enough money and time to sue the U.S. government? However any private developer who attempted to put people on that property without proper multi millon dollar remediation would expose themselves to possible multi-millon dollar libality, not the type of situation that invites a rush of developers.
At some point the country will most likely have to somehow find the money to carry out the clean up.However the solution to another fine mess the two Super Powers left us in is not as easy as some of you seem to make out.

[Pitts Bay on 24.08.05 at 18:12]

Shree Cents

"However any private developer who attempted to put people on that property without proper multi millon dollar remediation would expose themselves to possible multi-millon dollar libality, not the type of situation that invites a rush of developers."

I agree, and this is what boggles my mind. Here you had a developer, with financing in place, who had allocated $35M to the environmental remediation. Yet they were shown the door for personal reasons on the part of the PLP minister involved.

In respect of the comment above that it was the BLDC, I believe the record will show that the BLDC were sidelined by the PLP Minister in almost all matters regarding the development of the Base Lands. They were not allowed to negotiate independently of the Government Minister, which was contrary to the whole point of having the BLDC in the first place!!

[SmokingGun on 24.08.05 at 18:16]

Shree Cents, I don't disagree with a lot you say but I cannot imagine that the "whole" site has been exposed to contamination. The areas that were could have been cordoned off and the OK sections made use of.

[Shree Cents on 24.08.05 at 18:29]

Pitt's Bay it is my understanding that a number of developers have made approaches to the Government however the question becomes did their plans fit in the Governments plans. How much affordable housing....what size golf course if any? Do we need another golf course or do we some residential,small industrial and open park and recreation space. Golf courses really are limited to the use of a few who have the time and money to enjoy them. I look forward to the outcome of the sustainable developement excerise. Smoking Gun A good idea but again not as simple as that cordoned off until some ambulance chaser sends his three year old over the barriers and than makes a claim. Many developers would not touch this place with a hundred foot pole.. there are many other easier places in the world to develope without the headache

[Guilden M. Gilbert, Jr. on 24.08.05 at 18:41]

Martin,

"If (and I say "if") it is true that the UK had to take over the negotiations, why?"

If you rent an apartment and sign a lease with the landlord a relative of the ladlord has no right to negotiate you out of that lease.

The lease for the baselands was signed between the U.S. Government and the British Government on land within a British overseas territory. Therefore, any termination of that lease would have to be negotiated by the two parties who signed the lease.

Even if Bermuda s given the authority to negotiate, final approval and sign-off comes from the U.K. Government. The reality is that if what Bermuda wants could negatively impact the U.K./U.S. relations the U.K.'s decision will be one which favours its U.S. reations over Bermda's concerns.

[SmokingGun on 24.08.05 at 18:59]

With the way things are going in Bermuda maybe they should just throw a big wall up around Morgan's Point, add on some gun towers and set up our own little Alcatraz. Have the inmates clean up the place. Have one high security section set up on the beach where Bermuda can cater to all the global white-collar criminals who can pay a million dollars a year to serve their time in better than average surroundings. (Heck, could have had Martha down for a visit.) Use the money to fix the place up a little.

[Martin on 24.08.05 at 21:27]

Guilden,

Thanks for the info.

I was really looking to the point that was made earlier by Luthor.

[ace on 24.08.05 at 22:26]

"Even if Bermuda s given the authority to negotiate, final approval and sign-off comes from the U.K. Government. The reality is that if what Bermuda wants could negatively impact the U.K./U.S. relations the U.K.'s decision will be one which favours its U.S. reations over Bermda's concerns."

Couldn't agree more Guilden.

However, if you are hinting that Britain is reponsible for our "sucky deal" it could be argued that Bermuda actually did quite well, relatively speaking, in getting $11 million.

I wonder what we would have managed to pry out of the US if Britain hadn't been the party on the other side of the deal?

[Guilden M. Gilbert, Jr. on 25.08.05 at 00:05]

Ace,

The point I was trying to make was that Britain is not going to push the U.S. into a corner with demands to clean up the former baselands if doing so is going to hurt U.K./U.S. relations.

I believe Bermuda did get a raw deal in this instance. The U.S. created the mess and it should assume responsibility for the cost of the clean up. $11 million is no where near enough to cover the cost of the clean up. The U.S. has left a trail of contamination at bases around the world and it has shirked its responsibility to clean up its mess.

Bermuda did not negotiate, nor did it have any say in the U.S. leasing the baselands. This was an arrangement between the U.K. and the U.S. and the U.K. should have given Bermuda much more consideration and demanded that the U.S. clean up its mess before the land was handed back. It did not, and in my view the reason is as stated in my first paragraph.

I believe the way the U.K. handled this situation was reprehensible. Bermuda may on a per capita basis be a wealth country but it is not a rich country in the big scheme of things. Bermuda has a purchasing power parity of $2.3 billion dollars and its government budgeted annual revenue is only $700 million dollars. if it were included in the Forbes billionaire listing it would sit very near the bottom of the list. Yet the U.K. did not care about how Bermuda would raise the necessary revenue to pay for the clean up of the baselands.

And there are people who wonder why I support Independence for Bermuda. We mean absolutely nothing to the U.K. unless of course there is something they can use us for to strenthen their global relationships. Ever wonder why they could careless if Bermuda chooses Independence or not? It makes no difference to them whatsoever because we add no value to them.

[ace on 25.08.05 at 07:33]

Guilden,

Do you honestly believe that Bermuda would have been better off negociating with the US as an independent country in this case?

[Shree Cents on 25.08.05 at 10:10]

No Ace I don't think being independent would have made any difference in our negotiations with the U.S. The United States record with regard to leaving behind it's garbagge on former bases is well established.Just look at the Phillipines. Their policy is not to accept any libility for former bases outside of the United States.
More importantly what this issue does raise is the question of how much the "Mother Country" really cares about it most populated colonial "child"? Is being a colony any real benifit to us and if so what? When we honestly discuss independence these are the types of question we must frankly ask ourselves and honestly answer.

[Guilden M. Gilbert, Jr. on 25.08.05 at 10:26]

Ace,

I am not necessarily saying that as an Independent country we would have received more than $11 million. We do not know the answer to that. I do believe, however, that we would have fought very hard to have the U.S. foot the bill for the contamination it left behind.

The point I was making was that this shows me that the U.K. is not going to put our needs above its own relationships, even if our needs are important to us and could cause a financial strain on us as a country.

The U.K. is more loyal to itself than it is to the protection of its overseas territories.

[on 25.08.05 at 10:32]

"The U.K. is more loyal to itself than it is to the protection of its overseas territories."

Much like the US....remember they're the ones who contaminated the environement so that they could "win the war for everyone".

[Adjustah on 25.08.05 at 11:20]

"The U.K. is more loyal to itself than it is to the protection of its overseas territories."

Espescially when said territories keep spouting the same independance rhetoric every ten years...not knocking independence here - ok I suppose I am, but where's their motivation if we keep saying that being a colony is crap?

[Bill Cook on 25.08.05 at 11:32]

The UK is more loyal to itself than to its overseas territories.

Now theres a REVELATION.

Here was silly me thinking that ALL countries did what was in their OWN best interests.

Please enlighten me as to what you would use to fight hard to get the US to clean up the base lands.

There is an old saying that when you have your enemies BALLS in the palm of your hand his heart and soul will follow.

Make no mistake I am outraged that the US can get away with this but they did and apart from outrage there is little we can do about it until the BALL/BALLS change hands.

[Guilden M. Gilbert, Jr. on 25.08.05 at 11:36]

Adjustah,

I think and speak for myself, therefore, I cannot speak for anyone else but it can never be said that I have stated that being colony is crap. My reasons for supporting Independence have nothing to do with any ill feelings toward the U.K.

I also believe that the topic of Independence is a natural topic to be raised by a country like Bermuda as our success is not because of the U.K.

I happen to believe that we are more than capable of handling our own affairs better than somebody else whose first interest is not what is best for Bermuda.

I am more than willing to discuss this topic at any time but this thread is not the place.

[Guilden M. Gilbert, Jr. on 25.08.05 at 11:38]

Bill,

"Make no mistake I am outraged that the US can get away with this but they did and apart from outrage there is little we can do about it until the BALL/BALLS change hands."

Unlike you I would rather fight for what is best for Bermuda and lose than not to fight at all.

If you are prepared to simply sit back and let someone have you by the BALLS that is your perogative.

[ours on 25.08.05 at 11:48]

Why should we spout indepenedance from Britain when we don't have the organization and foresight to re-use prime land and its facilities? So they have some contamination issues, surely in ten years we could have cleaned that up instead of letting it fester. If we were an efficient country the mess would have been cleaned up and we could be benefiting from very good land and even made up the money it would have cost us to clean. But no, its an overgrown mess and as usual it is definitely not our fault.

[Adjustah on 25.08.05 at 11:58]

Guilden,

"...as our success is not because of the U.K."

I agree, wholeheartedly.

"I happen to believe that we are more than capable of handling our own affairs better than somebody else whose first interest is not what is best for Bermuda."

I also agree, but then how was the $11M settlement accepted? Why then did the Government of the time not make any more noise? Not being antagonistic, but that gets me back to my original point: If we can take care of our own business, then why have we used $6M of the $11M settlement towards what, apparently, looks like nothing much at all. Should we not hold the BLDC accountable for taking 10 years and $6M to produce nothing more than a black hole in the potential housing market.

As for independance *tips hat* looking forward to discussions in another thread.

Cheers.

[SmokingGun on 25.08.05 at 12:14]

Ours, you state the irrefutable obvious. It seems like all Bermuda's issues are allowed to fester until they become major concerns. In many ways Bermuda is a microcosm of the the US. Everything that happens in that country, happens in our tiny little island. Often faster and with more impact. If Bermuda wants to run with the big boys then it's got to be pro-active and decisive and that means getting things done in an efficient and orderly fashion. Get on with it and make noise whilst doing it if necessary. Let the world know that the US, Canada and the UK left an ugly mark on a beautiful country in their greedy haste to exit. Truth is, Bermuda's bases were obsolete for quite some time and the former government should have been making plans long before it came to them being shuttered. But the only thing our worthy premier at the time was working on was grabbing the rights to McDonald's.

Bermuda is totally and completely in the grip of the US. I'm looking forward to when they decide to plug the tax loop-hole so I can afford to buy a house. And maybe open up a McDonald's franchise.

[sandgrownan on 25.08.05 at 12:14]

"...as our success is not because of the U.K."

Not strictly true, our success is because of a) a favourable tax code and b) an environment created under the same regulatory framework as the UK. So, although not directly because of the UK, the UK's presence has guaranteed a certain amount of stability, right of appeal to the privy council etc etc. It all helps.

As for the baselands, to get back on topic, it's yet another example of complete inaction by our wonderful progressive government. I shake my head, utterly useless. Shame on anyone who continues to think they serve the best interests of Bermuda.

[Tiger Bay on 25.08.05 at 12:16]

Actually, the $11 million was a payout freeing the US from its future obligations to maintain Longbird Bridge.

No acknowledgement was made of, or consideration was paid for, environmental damage.