Open Mike: The Former Baselands

Another chance to talk about a subject of your choice.

First comment sets the subject for debate. If you raise a question, please provide your own thoughts too, even if it's in a subsequent comment.

Update: Adjustah says:

"Supposedly, "the Company has spent approximately $6.5 million for environmental remediation work, e.g. asbestos abatement, material, debris and tank removal and site cleaning."

And yet they have still not been able to develop the area at Morgan's Point yet, while the former Kindley Field is slowly being turned into an industrial area.

Didn't we stupidly settle up for $11M only a few years ago? And where's our Bermudian spirit? If there's even an acre of open land we'll build a golf course on it or cram some condo's in there..."

Comments

[Adjustah on 24.08.05 at 08:08]

Baselands cleanup?

[Adjustah on 24.08.05 at 08:12]

Supposedly, "the Company has spent approximately $6.5 million for environmental remediation work, e.g. asbestos abatement, material, debris and tank removal and site cleaning."

And yet they have still not been able to develop the area at Morgan's Point yet, while the former Kindley Field is slowly being turned into an industrial area.

Didn't we stupidly settle up for $11M only a few years ago? And where's our Bermudian spirit? If there's even an acre of open land we'll build a golf course on it or cram some condo's in there...

[Tiger Bay on 24.08.05 at 08:21]

A large portion of Morgan's Point (Naval Annex)should be turned into a park. Areas that are developed should include bicycle and jogging trails.

[Curried Goat on 24.08.05 at 08:52]

I used to love going to Morgan's Point when I was a kid. I remember an old disused crematorium there, with an operating theatre and all morgue (sp?) very creepy!!! Apart from being very dirty, it was as if it were just left as it was, ready for the next Post Mortum. That was a looooong time ago. Anyone remember that?

[Adjustah on 24.08.05 at 09:07]

Morgan's Point was always great for training the Regiment as it was, for all intents and purposes, a full working town. Great for I.S. training - working everything, cinema, clubs, built up housing areas, etc. As for creepy, yeah...it's like an episode of Scooby Doo.

The real dissapoinment has been with the old Kindley Field. It's not bad, but there has been no sense of urgency with the development. The real shame is the hospital. When the US pulled out that place was like Aladdin's Cave. All that were missing were the people. A missed opportunity indeed.

[Full_Fullish on 24.08.05 at 10:00]

Good topic! There is so much land there, and so much we can do with it. I think it should be divided up, say half of it for housing, quarter for business' or business' wharehouses and the rest for parks or recreational activities.

[loki on 24.08.05 at 10:32]

The sad thing is that I have personally seen quite a lot of perfectly usable housing at Morgan's Point, in surprisingly good condition, too.

[ours on 24.08.05 at 11:23]

I'm not sure of their condition when the US pulled out but it seems that houses and even apartments at Morgan's Point were handed back to Bermuda on a platter and we did nothing. Now we are crying out for affordable housing.

[Adjustah on 24.08.05 at 11:56]

Methinks that there were issues about the houses there not being built "up to code": i.e. they would not withstand a hurricane etc. However, even after Fabian, the houses are still there and only seem to suffer now from neglect.

[Anon on 24.08.05 at 12:03]

I've been up at the annex for Regiment and as far as I can tell, almost _no_ buildings are in good repair. Perhaps its because they wre left too long without maintenance and exposed to weather and vandals? Or perhaps they were on their way down anyway?

[loki on 24.08.05 at 12:08]

Anon

Not sure what area of the annex you were in, but I can assure you that there are plenty of houses down there that look like they were abandoned not long ago. There are definitely some areas where the undergrowth has completely taken over, but most of the houses that I have seen recently look to be in very good condition, all things considered.

[Somers on 24.08.05 at 12:32]

I heard they used brackish water to mix the concrete when the buildings were originally constructed - and now the rebar is popping in the walls, making it for an unsafe dwelling. But still - it is pretty easy to drive a bulldozer through them and build something else, isn't it?

[Somers on 24.08.05 at 12:35]

and 6.5 million spent so far??? Um, where did all that money go???

If they are handing out money without seeing any progress, heck give me $2 million and I will take my chainsaw & wheelbarrow up there...

[Copper on 24.08.05 at 12:37]

The most important thing that needs to be done is for the government to clean up the land. Nobody wants to develop an area when there are huge up front cost for environmental clean up and the associated delay in starting any kind of development and the eventual return on invesment.

Secondly - DO NOTHING WITHOUT A MASTER PLAN!!! Idiots in charge get this huge piece of land and then they start slicing off pieces. Oh, we'll do this with this little piece and then will do that with that piece, with no consideration on how these things will sit and interact with each other. In the end the whole place looks like they through darts at a map.

And when I say a master plan, one done by urban planners and architects, not bureaucrats.

[Pitts Bay on 24.08.05 at 12:43]

There are some amazing houses down there. The old commodore's house is great. It has (or had) beautiful cedar lined den/library. Cedar staircase etc. Also a great cave at the back that would make a perfect wine cellar. Currently sitting empty and greatly reduced in value now that the ferry is right next door.

On top of the hill above the Commodore's house is another great house. Very old (rumoured to be one of the older houses in Bermuda) with great old cedar lined rooms etc etc.

I went through these houses when the tenders were out for the development of Morgan's Point. They were in great shape then and I would have loved to have bought one of these two.

On the matter of the remediation of the environmental damage. The potential investors had earmarked $35M to the environmental remediation (this was before construction etc. ) However, this all came to a head soon after 1998.

My feeling was that the new PLP government did not want anyone developing this land who had not been appointed or nominated by themselves. Accordingly they wasted no time in personally insulting various representatives of the finanacing behind that project, and who accordingly took the view that they wanted nothing to do with Bermuda!!

Since then it has all fallen into disrepair.

I do not think that the PLP would be so stupid now that they have been in government for 7 years, but when the were first elected, it is my impression that they cleared anything that could be connected to the UBP - and todays result is the derelict land at Morgan's Point.

[The Limey on 24.08.05 at 13:13]

Can someone help me understand why on earth Bermuda would accept $11m for the repair of Longbird bridge in return for not claiming against the US for any cleanup of the former baselands?

I'm appalled that

1. The Americans didn't have the grace and integrity to offer to clean up the mess themselves before they left,

2. The UK would allow them to get away without doing so, and

3. That Bermuda would acquiesce to such a sell-out too.

What am I missing?

[loki on 24.08.05 at 13:21]

"Can someone help me understand why on earth Bermuda would accept $11m for the repair of Longbird bridge"

......which was not actually used for said repair of bridge.

[SmokingGun on 24.08.05 at 13:31]

"My feeling was that the new PLP government did not want anyone developing this land who had not been appointed or nominated by themselves. Accordingly they wasted no time in personally insulting various representatives of the finanacing behind that project, and who accordingly took the view that they wanted nothing to do with Bermuda!!

Since then it has all fallen into disrepair." Posted by Pitts Bay.

My sentiments exactly. I remember as a kid going to Morgan's Point and playing baseball with some of the kids. (I sucked by the way, couldn't catch with a glove.) Couldn't believe that the island's leaders looked a gift horse in the mouth and blew a massive opportunity to utilize the property rapidly.

They could easily have set up a vacation village where families could come down and rent weekly or monthly for vacations. Create summer camps for Bermuda's kids. They could have used some of the housing for foreign workers, ie waitstaff. All they had to do was maintain a status qou so the place didn't deteriorate whilst they worked on the master plan.

But going back to Pitts Bay's point. I honestlty don't think our current government really ever felt that they were/are going to be around for the long haul. Therefore why not set it up so you can get a nice peice of the pie on a personal level. It all harks back to our politicians are too often tempted to take advantage of their positions because they have other interests. A very sad commentary but I will confess I am very skeptical about many of our leaders, both yesterday's and todays.

[SmokingGun on 24.08.05 at 13:38]

Limey, I have a sneaking feeling that the US simply said "take it or leave it" with a side comment to the effect of; "we'll close up that little tax loophole that you've become to rely so heavily on."

[Adjustah on 24.08.05 at 13:46]

Sadly enough, I don't think we can assign partisan blame here - as I recall the BLDC was equally apathetic under both parties.

That being said, the acceptance of the $11M price-tag was done on the latter's watch. But seriously, what advice would anyone have been given to accept such a low settlement?

Also, for the UK to wash it's hands of this mess, which they created when they allowed the leasing of the land during the war, was ridiculous.

[Guilden M. Gilbert , Jr. on 24.08.05 at 13:59]

Limey,

"1. The Americans didn't have the grace and integrity to offer to clean up the mess themselves before they left,

2. The UK would allow them to get away without doing so, and

3. That Bermuda would acquiesce to such a sell-out too.

What am I missing?"

You aren't missing anything.

1. Bermuda is not the first or the last place the US military has left or will leave with contamination without cleaning up. They are the world's leaders and they will do as they darn well please to do and there is nothing you can do about.

2. Just goes to show how important Bermuda and its affairs are to the UK versus its relationship with the US. If there is no benefit to the UK what occurs in Bermuda and for that matter the other territories matters not to them.

3. Please refer to No. 1.

[Andrew on 24.08.05 at 14:56]

Maybe the Yanks are just getting even for someone failing to properly extinguish their smoking materials at the Whitehouse in 1812...

[on 24.08.05 at 15:20]

"Also, for the UK to wash it's hands of this mess, which they created when they allowed the leasing of the land during the war, was ridiculous."

Maybe they felt it would oppress the black Bermudian.

[ace on 24.08.05 at 15:46]

America is the world's "firefighter". They go in, spray lots of water about and leave a big mess.

Look at the state they left their bases in the Phillipines.

Disgraceful.

[on 24.08.05 at 15:59]

"America is the world's "firefighter". "

Actually, by their own definition, they are the worlds terrorists.

It is their official policy to ignore the environmental damage they've caused, in other countries, as long as there is no immediate threat to american citizens.

[Luthor on 24.08.05 at 16:34]

I have heard some horrifying first hand accounts of the PLP's handling of the negotiations all culminating in the pro-independence party asking the "mother country" England to take over the negotiations for them!

At the end of the day all we got was $11 million and a mess that we will be stuck with for years to come

[Martin on 24.08.05 at 17:40]

I am slightly surprised that we are blaming the UK.

If (and I say "if") it is true that the UK had to take over the negotiations, why?

Here we are poised...at least in the minds of many for Independence - and we can't manage a negotiation of this type.

Amazing.

Guess it's appropriate to blame the UK.

[Pitts Bay on 24.08.05 at 18:05]

My understanding is that the United States military accepts no liability for any evnironmental damages on any base outside the United States. As Ace pointed out, their record in the Philippines is terrible, and the fact that they refused to contribute to the clean in Bermuda is just a continuation of that policy.

On US bases within the US, they have been found liable and have been made to clean up their mess.

Clear double standards - like Pat Robertson calling for the assination of Hugo Chavez. If an Iraqi cleric (of equal standing to Robertson) called for the assination of George Bush, all hell would break loose! (I know, off topic!!)

[Shree Cents on 24.08.05 at 18:05]

Let us first remember that neither political party UBP or PLP actually had the power to negotiate with the U.S. government. The original lease was between the governmants of the United States and the U.K. so we really had nothing to do with the far to little 11 million dollar settelement. The P.L.P. government tried in it limited way to negotiate with the U.S. with very little sucess. Remember folks we are still a colony....dah. With respect to simply moving people into the vacant houses after the Americans pulled, out let us not forget that the land and some building were and still are contaminated.....gallons of spent oil, gallons gallons of raw sewage and God knows how much asbestos and spent jet fuel, not a pertty picture. Of course the military could and did house people in such conditions. Who has enough money and time to sue the U.S. government? However any private developer who attempted to put people on that property without proper multi millon dollar remediation would expose themselves to possible multi-millon dollar libality, not the type of situation that invites a rush of developers.
At some point the country will most likely have to somehow find the money to carry out the clean up.However the solution to another fine mess the two Super Powers left us in is not as easy as some of you seem to make out.

[Pitts Bay on 24.08.05 at 18:12]

Shree Cents

"However any private developer who attempted to put people on that property without proper multi millon dollar remediation would expose themselves to possible multi-millon dollar libality, not the type of situation that invites a rush of developers."

I agree, and this is what boggles my mind. Here you had a developer, with financing in place, who had allocated $35M to the environmental remediation. Yet they were shown the door for personal reasons on the part of the PLP minister involved.

In respect of the comment above that it was the BLDC, I believe the record will show that the BLDC were sidelined by the PLP Minister in almost all matters regarding the development of the Base Lands. They were not allowed to negotiate independently of the Government Minister, which was contrary to the whole point of having the BLDC in the first place!!

[SmokingGun on 24.08.05 at 18:16]

Shree Cents, I don't disagree with a lot you say but I cannot imagine that the "whole" site has been exposed to contamination. The areas that were could have been cordoned off and the OK sections made use of.

[Shree Cents on 24.08.05 at 18:29]

Pitt's Bay it is my understanding that a number of developers have made approaches to the Government however the question becomes did their plans fit in the Governments plans. How much affordable housing....what size golf course if any? Do we need another golf course or do we some residential,small industrial and open park and recreation space. Golf courses really are limited to the use of a few who have the time and money to enjoy them. I look forward to the outcome of the sustainable developement excerise. Smoking Gun A good idea but again not as simple as that cordoned off until some ambulance chaser sends his three year old over the barriers and than makes a claim. Many developers would not touch this place with a hundred foot pole.. there are many other easier places in the world to develope without the headache

[Guilden M. Gilbert, Jr. on 24.08.05 at 18:41]

Martin,

"If (and I say "if") it is true that the UK had to take over the negotiations, why?"

If you rent an apartment and sign a lease with the landlord a relative of the ladlord has no right to negotiate you out of that lease.

The lease for the baselands was signed between the U.S. Government and the British Government on land within a British overseas territory. Therefore, any termination of that lease would have to be negotiated by the two parties who signed the lease.

Even if Bermuda s given the authority to negotiate, final approval and sign-off comes from the U.K. Government. The reality is that if what Bermuda wants could negatively impact the U.K./U.S. relations the U.K.'s decision will be one which favours its U.S. reations over Bermda's concerns.

[SmokingGun on 24.08.05 at 18:59]

With the way things are going in Bermuda maybe they should just throw a big wall up around Morgan's Point, add on some gun towers and set up our own little Alcatraz. Have the inmates clean up the place. Have one high security section set up on the beach where Bermuda can cater to all the global white-collar criminals who can pay a million dollars a year to serve their time in better than average surroundings. (Heck, could have had Martha down for a visit.) Use the money to fix the place up a little.

[Martin on 24.08.05 at 21:27]

Guilden,

Thanks for the info.

I was really looking to the point that was made earlier by Luthor.

[ace on 24.08.05 at 22:26]

"Even if Bermuda s given the authority to negotiate, final approval and sign-off comes from the U.K. Government. The reality is that if what Bermuda wants could negatively impact the U.K./U.S. relations the U.K.'s decision will be one which favours its U.S. reations over Bermda's concerns."

Couldn't agree more Guilden.

However, if you are hinting that Britain is reponsible for our "sucky deal" it could be argued that Bermuda actually did quite well, relatively speaking, in getting $11 million.

I wonder what we would have managed to pry out of the US if Britain hadn't been the party on the other side of the deal?

[Guilden M. Gilbert, Jr. on 25.08.05 at 00:05]

Ace,

The point I was trying to make was that Britain is not going to push the U.S. into a corner with demands to clean up the former baselands if doing so is going to hurt U.K./U.S. relations.

I believe Bermuda did get a raw deal in this instance. The U.S. created the mess and it should assume responsibility for the cost of the clean up. $11 million is no where near enough to cover the cost of the clean up. The U.S. has left a trail of contamination at bases around the world and it has shirked its responsibility to clean up its mess.

Bermuda did not negotiate, nor did it have any say in the U.S. leasing the baselands. This was an arrangement between the U.K. and the U.S. and the U.K. should have given Bermuda much more consideration and demanded that the U.S. clean up its mess before the land was handed back. It did not, and in my view the reason is as stated in my first paragraph.

I believe the way the U.K. handled this situation was reprehensible. Bermuda may on a per capita basis be a wealth country but it is not a rich country in the big scheme of things. Bermuda has a purchasing power parity of $2.3 billion dollars and its government budgeted annual revenue is only $700 million dollars. if it were included in the Forbes billionaire listing it would sit very near the bottom of the list. Yet the U.K. did not care about how Bermuda would raise the necessary revenue to pay for the clean up of the baselands.

And there are people who wonder why I support Independence for Bermuda. We mean absolutely nothing to the U.K. unless of course there is something they can use us for to strenthen their global relationships. Ever wonder why they could careless if Bermuda chooses Independence or not? It makes no difference to them whatsoever because we add no value to them.

[ace on 25.08.05 at 07:33]

Guilden,

Do you honestly believe that Bermuda would have been better off negociating with the US as an independent country in this case?

[Shree Cents on 25.08.05 at 10:10]

No Ace I don't think being independent would have made any difference in our negotiations with the U.S. The United States record with regard to leaving behind it's garbagge on former bases is well established.Just look at the Phillipines. Their policy is not to accept any libility for former bases outside of the United States.
More importantly what this issue does raise is the question of how much the "Mother Country" really cares about it most populated colonial "child"? Is being a colony any real benifit to us and if so what? When we honestly discuss independence these are the types of question we must frankly ask ourselves and honestly answer.

[Guilden M. Gilbert, Jr. on 25.08.05 at 10:26]

Ace,

I am not necessarily saying that as an Independent country we would have received more than $11 million. We do not know the answer to that. I do believe, however, that we would have fought very hard to have the U.S. foot the bill for the contamination it left behind.

The point I was making was that this shows me that the U.K. is not going to put our needs above its own relationships, even if our needs are important to us and could cause a financial strain on us as a country.

The U.K. is more loyal to itself than it is to the protection of its overseas territories.

[on 25.08.05 at 10:32]

"The U.K. is more loyal to itself than it is to the protection of its overseas territories."

Much like the US....remember they're the ones who contaminated the environement so that they could "win the war for everyone".

[Adjustah on 25.08.05 at 11:20]

"The U.K. is more loyal to itself than it is to the protection of its overseas territories."

Espescially when said territories keep spouting the same independance rhetoric every ten years...not knocking independence here - ok I suppose I am, but where's their motivation if we keep saying that being a colony is crap?

[Bill Cook on 25.08.05 at 11:32]

The UK is more loyal to itself than to its overseas territories.

Now theres a REVELATION.

Here was silly me thinking that ALL countries did what was in their OWN best interests.

Please enlighten me as to what you would use to fight hard to get the US to clean up the base lands.

There is an old saying that when you have your enemies BALLS in the palm of your hand his heart and soul will follow.

Make no mistake I am outraged that the US can get away with this but they did and apart from outrage there is little we can do about it until the BALL/BALLS change hands.

[Guilden M. Gilbert, Jr. on 25.08.05 at 11:36]

Adjustah,

I think and speak for myself, therefore, I cannot speak for anyone else but it can never be said that I have stated that being colony is crap. My reasons for supporting Independence have nothing to do with any ill feelings toward the U.K.

I also believe that the topic of Independence is a natural topic to be raised by a country like Bermuda as our success is not because of the U.K.

I happen to believe that we are more than capable of handling our own affairs better than somebody else whose first interest is not what is best for Bermuda.

I am more than willing to discuss this topic at any time but this thread is not the place.

[Guilden M. Gilbert, Jr. on 25.08.05 at 11:38]

Bill,

"Make no mistake I am outraged that the US can get away with this but they did and apart from outrage there is little we can do about it until the BALL/BALLS change hands."

Unlike you I would rather fight for what is best for Bermuda and lose than not to fight at all.

If you are prepared to simply sit back and let someone have you by the BALLS that is your perogative.

[ours on 25.08.05 at 11:48]

Why should we spout indepenedance from Britain when we don't have the organization and foresight to re-use prime land and its facilities? So they have some contamination issues, surely in ten years we could have cleaned that up instead of letting it fester. If we were an efficient country the mess would have been cleaned up and we could be benefiting from very good land and even made up the money it would have cost us to clean. But no, its an overgrown mess and as usual it is definitely not our fault.

[Adjustah on 25.08.05 at 11:58]

Guilden,

"...as our success is not because of the U.K."

I agree, wholeheartedly.

"I happen to believe that we are more than capable of handling our own affairs better than somebody else whose first interest is not what is best for Bermuda."

I also agree, but then how was the $11M settlement accepted? Why then did the Government of the time not make any more noise? Not being antagonistic, but that gets me back to my original point: If we can take care of our own business, then why have we used $6M of the $11M settlement towards what, apparently, looks like nothing much at all. Should we not hold the BLDC accountable for taking 10 years and $6M to produce nothing more than a black hole in the potential housing market.

As for independance *tips hat* looking forward to discussions in another thread.

Cheers.

[SmokingGun on 25.08.05 at 12:14]

Ours, you state the irrefutable obvious. It seems like all Bermuda's issues are allowed to fester until they become major concerns. In many ways Bermuda is a microcosm of the the US. Everything that happens in that country, happens in our tiny little island. Often faster and with more impact. If Bermuda wants to run with the big boys then it's got to be pro-active and decisive and that means getting things done in an efficient and orderly fashion. Get on with it and make noise whilst doing it if necessary. Let the world know that the US, Canada and the UK left an ugly mark on a beautiful country in their greedy haste to exit. Truth is, Bermuda's bases were obsolete for quite some time and the former government should have been making plans long before it came to them being shuttered. But the only thing our worthy premier at the time was working on was grabbing the rights to McDonald's.

Bermuda is totally and completely in the grip of the US. I'm looking forward to when they decide to plug the tax loop-hole so I can afford to buy a house. And maybe open up a McDonald's franchise.

[sandgrownan on 25.08.05 at 12:14]

"...as our success is not because of the U.K."

Not strictly true, our success is because of a) a favourable tax code and b) an environment created under the same regulatory framework as the UK. So, although not directly because of the UK, the UK's presence has guaranteed a certain amount of stability, right of appeal to the privy council etc etc. It all helps.

As for the baselands, to get back on topic, it's yet another example of complete inaction by our wonderful progressive government. I shake my head, utterly useless. Shame on anyone who continues to think they serve the best interests of Bermuda.

[Tiger Bay on 25.08.05 at 12:16]

Actually, the $11 million was a payout freeing the US from its future obligations to maintain Longbird Bridge.

No acknowledgement was made of, or consideration was paid for, environmental damage.

[Guilden M. Gilbert, Jr. on 25.08.05 at 12:21]

Adjustah,

"Why then did the Government of the time not make any more noise?"

That is a very good question. I do believe the ball was dropped on that. Although it may have been a situation where the Bermuda Government was excluded from negotiations because the original agreement was directly between the U.K. and the U.S. and the U.K. settled for what they thought may have been reasonable. I do not know.

I guess one question would be, "Was an independent survey done to determine the extent of contanimation anf the project cost of a clean up project?"

"Should we not hold the BLDC accountable for taking 10 years and $6M to produce nothing more than a black hole in the potential housing market."

I believe both the BLDC and the Government need to be held accountable.

It just seems to me that rather than holding the responsible parties accountable many persons will aire their opinions and frustration here or in similar forums rather than directly to the responsible parties.

Many say they are afraid to speak up for fear of retaliation. My response to that is as a citizen you have certain responsibilities to the society in which you live and fear should not prevent accountability.

[Guilden M. Gilbert, Jr. on 25.08.05 at 12:30]

Sandgrownan,

"Not strictly true, our success is because of a) a favourable tax code and b) an environment created under the same regulatory framework as the UK. So, although not directly because of the UK, the UK's presence has guaranteed a certain amount of stability, right of appeal to the privy council etc etc. It all helps."

Yes, we have a regulatory framework based on the U.K. framework but so does Canada and many other former colonies.

The right of appeal to the Privy Council is still used by most former territories. I would not and I have not suggested any move away from the Privy Council as a final right of appeal.

Our success is because there were Bermudians in the Houses of Parliament that looked forward and laid the ground work for future growth and development of the country.

Remember now, Bermuda is a self-governing territory. The oldest self-governing territory. The U.K. has no responsibility for internal affairs, which includes legislation.

[Full Fullish on 25.08.05 at 12:38]

Guilden, you are a wise man indeed. Basically what it boils down to is that we're a bunch of old farts shooting the breeze. We all know that these forums are being looked at by various gov'ment people, "Lurkers" for lack of a better term. But they stay silent cause otherwise they would have to respond to some very important questions which hav been raised here on a number of occasions.

I agree that the UBP initially dropped the ball, and that the PLP is doing the same now.

WIth all that land there, there is no reason why we can't have affordable housing. (Notice I didn't say low cost which has not only a bad connotation, but most people only want affordable housing). Government can easily fix up the apartment blocks and either lease or sell them out for a reasonable price. I know there are at least 2 blocks still there. Bang, that's about 20 small families right there.

Anyways.....maybe we should do something a little stronger than just writing in a blog. We do need to corner our government officials and make them respond. We have to do it in a way that isn't insulting, but also can't be ignored....

[Alex Scott on 25.08.05 at 12:39]

Lurkers? I'll get ITO right on this to find out who the rascals are!

[Guilden M. Gilbert, Jr. on 25.08.05 at 12:50]

Full Fullish,

I fully agree with you. I have to be honest, I have very little time for politicians and their promises. While there are some who are commitment to improvement, others will simply do only what it takes to retain their seat.

I woudl not suggest insulting anyone but I do suggest taking them to task and if this embarrasses them then so be it. the betterment of the country is much more important than protecting someone's ego.

I say call the guilty parties out. The Opposition cannot do it because while the Government they had the opportunity themselves and let it slip. Therefore, their chastisement of the Government is not credible.

The voting population has to take a stand and demand action from the government of the day, supporter or detractor.

[SmokingGun on 25.08.05 at 12:56]

Easy there Full Fullish. You'll get Limey kicked off the island with that kind of talk! He's probably got cars parked down the street as we speak.

But you are absolutely correct. Bringing temporay mobile housing in with no idea where you are going to put them? As you say, fixing up the apartments as temporary housing would take care of location and also give jobs to people. Maybe getting some of the wall-huggers off their butts and learning a trade at the same time.

[Bill Cook on 25.08.05 at 13:00]

Guilden,

Rest assured MY balls are in safe hands I plan ahead carefully.

You say you would rather fight than not fight,so you as a capable person share with us some of your plans and methodology you are employing or intend to employ to persuade the US government to clean up the mess they made and maybe you will rally support.

Accountability ? something is affecting it because their is damn little of it in my opinion.

[Full Fullish on 25.08.05 at 13:48]

So what do you propose, create a gov'ment watch dog comittee out of everyone here? We can hold one a quarter, each quarter will be about a certain topic, everyone is invited. We'll invite whichever minister is responsible to answer our questions, invite him very publicly, so he/she can't back down, and pose our questions, comments or suggestions to them. If they don't show up, it can be a LIB get together! :)

[sandgrownan on 25.08.05 at 13:51]

Guilden, while that's true (your comments on the legal framework), the Baselands mess is just an example of how Bermuda works today.

While Bermudians, under that framework, created Bermuda as we know it, the perception is that being a dependent territory assists in our economic well being. We can debate that backwards and forwards until we're blue in the face. And I'd like to, antoher time but...

BUT, dare we risk independence? Dare we? Is our National ego bigger than our economic well being? The same folks pushing us towards independence are largely the same folks who have achieved nothing since 1997. The baselands mess is just another example of incompetance, nepotism. I read the report, and sadly I wasn't shocked, suprised, or even outraged. I just thought, another squandered opportunity. Shrugged my shoudlers and moved on...

[Guilden M. Gilbert, Jr. on 25.08.05 at 14:05]

Sandgrownan,

Dare we risk Independence? That is not my call. All I can do is express my opinions on it. The majority will at some point make that decision.

However, if, as you say the perception that being a territory provides stability it is up to us to change that perception. Why should we allow another country to take credit for our success, Indenpendence or not.

Full Fullish,

That sounds like a very good idea to me. invite them in a public manner and make them come to the table or be embarrassed. Good governance and accountability does not happen at the polls it happens between elections and should be demanded by the population, the employers of the elected officials.

Elected officials are not above the population, they report to the population and if they fail to do so then action must be taken.

Bill,

Why should Bermuda sit quietly by an accept the U.S. position? It may change nothing but as someone else said, let the world know what is going on with our baselands and the contamination left behind by the U.S. military.

[sandgrownan on 25.08.05 at 14:28]

Guilden, I don't think the UK takes credit for our success. That's not the point. The folks who come here to do business like the "idea" that there is a (fairly!) respectable mther country. That may be wrong, but that's the way it is.

We have hardly anything to gain from independence other than a boost of National ego which has no value in the long run, but potentially plenty to lose. The folks in the cabinet office who want to threaten the status quo are the folks who have been inactive on housing, the baselands, education, tourism, have presided over scandals at BHC, Berkeley, have aroused ire over big cars, the abolition NDC, parking spaces for MPS, travel expenses, worse race relations, I could go on and on. The baselands are just an example.

I know they inherited many problems, but they've had 8 years to achieve something. And now they want to sever ties with a country that is seen to offer some stability.

[Bill Cook on 25.08.05 at 14:29]

Guilden,

At this time I am on many forums and a registered member of several anti war organisations.

I have been corresponding with the White House and many policy makers etc. I even volunteered to go to Palestine as a human rights advocate but its a 3 month training period and if you are over 70 you need all kinds of clearance.

I only point this out to illustrate that I am not above putting not only my mouth but my life on the line for my beliefs.

However I face reality and I know that while we as Bermudians think we can influence the US we need it more than it needs us.

I was serious when I said if you have any creative ideas lets have them.

[Full Fullish on 25.08.05 at 14:31]

Thanks, it sounds good on paper, but who here would be willing to join in and do this?

[on 25.08.05 at 14:33]

"Why should Bermuda sit quietly by an accept the U.S. position?"

Because Bermudians worship americans, they view them as their source of income. Bermudians are very complacent...notice how the environmental contamination left by the americans...is blamed on the UK.

[denning on 25.08.05 at 14:50]

I used to do a fair bit of environmental litigation. I never had to take on the US military, but I've got a pretty good idea of what the government was up against when they settled out Bermuda's claims. Had they fought the US policy, my bet is that the legal bill would have ended up in the millions and our grandchildren would be carrying on the fight for us in fifty years.

We must bear in mind that this is not "merely" a Bermuda issue. The US has more than 600 bases scattered throughout the world (based on 2003 figures) and it 'occupies' hundreds more that are officially held by their allies. There is pressure from Congress to downsize these holdings. The US is simply not going to set a precedent by paying off Bermuda (or anyone else) for environmental remediation, because then they'd be pressured to do the same in Canada, Japan, Kuwait, on and on and on.

This is one of those cases where to pursue the matter further (at least in the legal arena) would be to throw good money after bad. We could go ahead and attempt to garner some publicity, to draw the world's attention to the US policy, but our attention and energy would be better focused on getting the place cleaned up quickly. Environmental remediation does not get cheaper as the years tick by.

Sorry if I sound defeatist. I'd love to be proven wrong.

[Guilden M. Gilbert, Jr. on 25.08.05 at 15:44]

Bill,

Maybe I will put some ideas I have on paper and send them to you via email.

Full Fullish,

"Thanks, it sounds good on paper, but who here would be willing to join in and do this?"

Therein lies the problem, everybody has a complaint but nobody wants to step forward to do what is necessary to get a resolution. Everybody sits by and waits for the next person to make the first step.

Denning,

I do not necesarily disagree with you but if you don't stand up for yourself you will get trampled.

Further, it does not have to be legal action.

As this is a wide issue affecting many other countries, why shouldn't all the countries get together as a united front and demand that the U.S. cleans up after itself?

I can tell you there was a situation here recently where a number of persons living near a U.S. military location had been diagnosed with cancer. There was a great deal of press about this and this alone forced the U.S. military to conduct a study and report back to the Bahamas Government.

I aree that this is not the same as land contamination but it goes to show if you that nothing beats a try but a failure.

[SmokingGun on 25.08.05 at 15:58]

Denning, you are not a defeatist and no you are not wrong. The fact is that our Government really hasn't got a clue about what to do because there is no-one with the fore-sight to show the way. The sad thing is that our leaders have and continue to squander time and money blaming others instead of just dealing with the issues and fixing them. Rome wasn't built in a day but they at least showed up for work.

And to hear all this back and forth about blaming the UK, the US is just ridiculous. Bda is just a piss-ant little place in the middle of the ocean filled with a bunch of haves and have mores. Let me ask this, when was the last time you picked up a paint brush or shovel and went and helped build a house for a homeless fellow Bermudian? Has anyone ever done that? If not, then why can't our government even put a simple plan like that together?

[sandgrownan on 25.08.05 at 16:07]

Smoking Gun - you couldn't be more right.

[Guilden M. Gilbert, Jr. on 25.08.05 at 16:08]

Smoking Gun,

I aree with you because as someone mentioned earlier, surely the contaminated areas of the baselands can be cordoned off and the other areas can be used.

The last time I was on the Annex was when I was very young so to be honest do not remember a whole lot of. If memory serves me correctly the commercial area more ad on the peninsular. Would that not be the area of contamination? Sure the residential areas an be developed.

The same applies to Kindley Field. The areas that were used for residences can continue to be used for such.

The government needs to stop pussyfooting around and get on with the task at hand, that is, the development of affordable housing on some of the available land.

There should also be agreements signed between the property purchaser and the government that stipulates that the property cannot be sold for profit within the first 20 years.

I stand to be corrected but I have been advised that one of the residences on the former base, right on St. Davids road, whcih was purchase for $300K+ is now for sae for $700K+. if this is the case the sales agreements need to prevent this.

[Adjustah on 25.08.05 at 20:15]

"Because Bermudians worship americans..."

Uh, pardon? Where am I? This isn't Fox News...

[SmokingGun on 25.08.05 at 20:41]

Adjustah, don't adjust your TV set. In defence and taking it in context, I believe he/she's saying as in "we worship the green backs." Which in reality to an awful lot of us is probably true.

[jbhvt on 25.08.05 at 21:04]

"At the end of the day all we got was $11 million and a mess that we will be stuck with for years to come."

I could be wrong, but I think the airport that was built by the U.S., and without which you would have no tourism or international business, the linchpins of your economy, might be worth something!

While I certainly don't agree with the U.S. military's penchant for leaving behind a trail of eco-terrorism, I also think it's unfair to say that Bermuda didn't profit in a large way from the presence of the base.

[on 25.08.05 at 21:10]

"I could be wrong, but I think the airport that was built by the U.S., and without which you would have no tourism or international business,"

Ah, an american.

" I also think it's unfair to say that Bermuda didn't profit in a large way from the presence of the base. "

Who profitted more? the US or Bermuda?

[SmokingGun on 25.08.05 at 21:20]

Bermuda profited more by a long shot. And still does. The only problem is we squander all our opportunities to use the monies to put our limited resources to good use.

[Smith on 25.08.05 at 21:29]

A point to consider:

When the Canadians left, they cleaned up after them selves. tha americans contaminated the area, then left.

Yet, according to the average Bermudian, Canadians are cheap and not welcomed in Bermuda, but the loud, obnoxious "ugly american" is more then welcomed.

[SmokingGun on 25.08.05 at 21:37]

I commend the Canadians and have never not welcomed them. As far as being cheap, they're from all over, not just Canada.

As far as loud, obnoxious and ugly Americans, I've never spent more than a night with any of them.

[jbhvt on 25.08.05 at 21:51]

As I said, I don't agree with the fact that the US left behind a mess, but I still contend Bermuda profited handsomely with the free construction of an airport that can handle international traffic, and that not having to build it with Bermudian money (which most likely would have been raised by--gasp--taxes) accelerated the economy in ways it would have taken years to do otherwise, if at all.

[Bill Cook on 25.08.05 at 22:00]

Smith,

Glad you said that about the Canadians.

You see in my business they as well as the American bases were customers of mine.

The Canadians were easier to deal with, less red tape but the Americans also were pleasant to deal with and for me I was also fortunate to have a pass that allowed me to watch the movies and use their restuarants.

There is no doubt that Bermudas post war boom was due to the bases here and it is true they were the backbone of our economy.

The Brits too had the Naval area and also contributed but in a smaller way.

Regrettably we were not so environmentally wise in those days or we would have monitored the pollution although I am not sure to what extent we could have stopped it.

Everone but the Americans cleaned up after they left but we inherited the airport and the baselands.

Surely someone could have come up with a way to lease the land on the proviso that cleaning up was part of the deal.

We are too dependent on the US to force it to do anything but we are traditionally resourceful and I am surprised no one has not found a way to utilise this valuable asset, other than the fanciful notion that we could kick the USA'S ass, wishful thinking indeed,instead we may very well have to kiss its ass, so we hope it at least keeps that clean !

[Guilden M. Gilbert, Jr. on 25.08.05 at 23:36]

JBHVT,

You are aboslutely correct. The U.S. military was very important to the development of Bermuda. The U.S. military built the runway that is very valuable to our economic success. There is no doubt about that.

However, the U.S. military did not do it out of the kindness of its heart. Bermuda was used as an aircraft carrier. I am certain that with it geographic location having a military base (refueling station, etc.) in Bermuda saved the U.S. military billions of dollars.

I would say that both Bermuda and the U.S. military benfitted greatly from the bases in Bermuda. The U.S. military is not going to create and operate a base unless it is advantageous to do so.

I don't think anyone would deny the benefits to Bermuda, however, it is shameful for the U.S. military to contaminate property and simply get up and walk away from it with at least making a concerted effort to clean up its mess.

[Luthor on 26.08.05 at 01:16]

Did a little more digging into the history of the baselands negotiations. Apparently the Bermuda government obtained permission from the UK under either David Saul or Pamela Gordon to negotiate directly with the US. Grant Gibbons and Maxwell Burgess were the main drivers of the negotiations and I'm told that they also played a key role in getting the UK to clean up the mess at Malabar. These negotiations took forever mainly because the then government was waiting for the result of a suit Canada was pursuing against the US for environmental damages on their soil caused by US bases. The argument being that with a US government shutting down bases around the world due to the conclusion of the cold war they would be unlikely to recognise Bermuda's claim unless a legal precedent could be set by a the Canadian Case.

Meanwhile when the UBP lost in 98, Arthur Hodgson, Terry Lister and Dame Jennifer Smith took over the negotiations with the US and for 3 years they attempted to woo US Congressmen and Senators to take up their cause. At the end of those 3 years the team had gone through three different leaders at the Ministerial level and finally asked the UK to take over the negotiations. The final deal negotiated by the British gave Bermuda $11 million and an assortment of promises from the US military for training opportunities for the Regiment.

The events that I have described come from pretty reliable sources within both parties but I do stand to be corrected if anything I have passed on is erroneous. But from what I have learned the part when things seemed to break down was when Arthur Hodgson was removed from the Environment Ministry. He seemed interested in pursuing an agreement that was beneficial to Bermuda even if it took years to accomplish while his successors were accused of just wanting to get this over with. As a strong advocate for independence and one of the most brilliant men Bermuda has ever produced I simply can't believe that if he had been retained that we would have turned negotiations over to the British

[Tiger Bay on 26.08.05 at 08:25]

The Canadians weren't so sterling either environmentally. The point where 9 Beaches is located was an islet and a large shallow bay full of turtle grass. They bulldozed the hill down into the water to create that point.

[Adjustah on 26.08.05 at 09:09]

Tiger,

That would explain alot about the state of some of the beaches there if the natural flow of the water was changed. Just had a look at it on Google Earth.

If anyone else is interested at looking at the bases for a better idea, have a look on Google Map (web based) or Google Earth (you have to download the application, but it's 3D). For some reason Bermuda was photographed in very high resolution - except for the area around NASA and Cooper's Island. Hmmmm...

[Bill Cook on 26.08.05 at 09:19]

Luther,

I was pretty sure that the UK did not negotiate with the US as we did indeed arrange to deal directly but I was unsure of the details and did not want to comment without being properly informed.

Also it was to be taken into account that the lease had more time to run and this was given up as part of the deal.

It was unfortunate we did not appear to realise the cost of cleaning up while negotiating it seems

How we arrived at the amount is unclear and what other benefits were to accrue also.

But we did not turn over responsibility over to the British as we were not in a position to do so, rather they allowed us to deal directly,as we would have been able to do had we been independent presumably

It would all depend on the original terms of the leasing arrangement,as if memory serves the British recd several battleships as part of the bargain.

[on 26.08.05 at 10:32]

"The Canadians weren't so sterling either environmentally. The point where 9 Beaches is located was an islet and a large shallow bay full of turtle grass. They bulldozed the hill down into the water to create that point.
"

How many islands did the americans bulldose to create their bases? I'm sure you're aware of the original plan...to push Gibbs Hill into Riddles bay , and make southampton flat ....no environmental impact there!

[on 26.08.05 at 12:35]

Guilden,

I agree with your points. Both backs were scratched, which, after all, is the way of the world, isn't it?

I know there wasn't much anyone could do under the circumstances given the party (the US military machine) you were up against, but it still seems a shame there wasn't more pressure put on the US government to at least make an effort, even if half-hearted, to clean up the mess. But then we do a great job of leaving messes behind...(big sigh).

In the meantime, I find it criminal that no one in Bermuda can agree on how to use all that land just sitting there while there is such a housing crunch. I hope it gets sorted out soon for everyone's sake. Everyone deserves a safe place to live and on such a gorgeous and prosperous island it is a travesty that there are those who are homeless or living rough.

[anon on 26.08.05 at 19:53]

I have scanned through the comments and there are vital points that need to be made clear.
Firstly the bases came into existence when the world was fighting an evil of such horrific proportions that had it ever set foot on the soil of Bermuda - a real possibility I might add - where do you think the majority of the population would have gone. The GAS chamber might be a reasonable assumption!! My own family lost two uncles fighting that one for you ungrateful bunch of !!!!
Everyone talks about the cost of the clean up what about the value of the property development left behind. The US formed Morgans Point and essentially Bermuda realized an additional 200 acres of land at lets say 1 million dollar per acre of prime water front property. The cost of any clean up at its worst estimate is $30 million so I think the US have every right to say we have done enough.
The business growth of Bermuda owes its success to the telecommunications system that links it to the rest of the world. Who do you think put that in place. Your precious PLP were asked to contribute $11 million to have a new transatlantic cable diverted through Bermuda. The PLP waved two fingers and guess what it passes by just to the north. A decision taken in full knowledge that one of the existing cables has already been cut a second has a five year life and the Cable & Wireless dish is about to be removed. In five years this island will have one cable link with the rest of the world. Perhaps they really do want us to return to the dark ages.

[Bill Cook on 27.08.05 at 09:07]

Anon,

Your post was informative and of course most reasonable people would agree we were faced with a terrible threat during WW2.and we all had to contribute to our defence.

Would like to know your basis for 30 mill to clean up as various costs up to double that figure have been mentioned.
I confess I have not got a clue as to even the extent of pollution.

Your comment on our cable and satellite connections were very interesting.

If I read you correctly we will be faced with a dilemma soon.

This may be off topic but I would be grateful for any further information you are willing to share.

[SmokingGun on 27.08.05 at 14:02]

I think anons coments are quite valid. Bermuda on whole has always come accross to me as a bit shallow. There is a take take mentality which on occasion is countered by a very giving time ie; tsunami, 9/11, hurricanes etc.

The odd thing is that there never seems to be much of the good old, take a little, give a lot and invest a lot more in your own people and country. The people of Bermuda just can't seem to grasp the idea that the money that comes into Bermuda has strings attached. It's comes from companies that have shareholders. These companies do what is in the best interest of their shareholders, not necessarily Bermuda. The same goes for countries. The US most likely did see a huge value in the land that they gave up to Bermuda, after all it was a large percentage the island's land mass that could be developed. They likely figured Bermuda would sell off some of the good parts for big mnoney and use that to fix the issues with the contaminated areas. I for one wish they had helped follow that through, but at the end of the day the US has it's shareholders and as has been mentioned they were not going to set a precedent that might turn out to cost it's tax-payers dearly.

Regarding the cable, Bermuda's leaders probably felt that the cable company should have paid Bermuda to be allowed to run their cable through it. Paying $11 million to make an investment in Bermuda's future and security by bringing the cable to the island would have been the proper thing to do and is a major opportunity has been wasted. Meanwhile technology has moved on and all the individual companies are doing their own thing. They're not waiting around for us to screw up their plans.

[Bill Cook on 28.08.05 at 10:16]

Smoke,

Yes I guess we are somewhat shallow being so small and self important.

We are a bit like the mouse that thinks its an Elephant.

The fact of the matter is that there is a bit of truth in all of things you say but we are a bit special and unique and we have our share of negatives we also have some strong positives.

Like other places we have become more materialistic and the selfish mantra "whats yours is mine and whats mine is my own " applies.

The main problem is when the big decisions are made they are seldom made by the best informed and most capable rather by some uninformed beauracrat.

So we have a lot of Monday morning quarterbacking.

Gets back to my originl view that countries should be run by those most capable not politicians.

[Big Bad Wolf ^..^ on 28.08.05 at 13:38]

Simple LAND BANK all that OPEN SPACE. Deep planing to turn all that open space into a multi use National Park! Any more questions..Please?

[Guilden M. Gilbert, Jr. on 28.08.05 at 17:33]

Bill,

"...that countries should be run by those most capable not politicians."

Very good point but the reality the world over is that those who are capable are in the private sector and have no desire for public life. There are two primary reasons for this (1) public life does not (should not may be better) lead to financial independence and (2) Public life is a thankless position. Not matter what you do their will be detractors who are trying to remove you from public life.