By the numbers

The Royal Gazette has been revealing the results of numerous Research Innovations polls over the last few days. Since wading through the stories to pick out the key figures is tedious (I wish they'd tabulate the data to make it easier to digest), here's a summary of the findings.

45% of us disapprove of the way Premier Alex Scott is handling his job; 39% approve.

55% are dissatisfied with the way the country is going; only 36% are satisfied.

63% are dissatisfied with the current political climate; 26% are satisfied.

65% would like a referendum to decide whether we should go independent; a mere 25% prefer a general election.

67% are opposed to independence; a scant 19% support it.

Yet despite all this, if there was an election tomorrow 34% of us would vote PLP and only 29% would vote UBP (20% refused to say; 14% said they'd vote for neither).

The UBP's failure to capitalise on the country's unhappiness with the PLP is reflected in Grant Gibbons' approval ratings, which are comparable to those of Mr. Scott. Just 40% of us approve of the Opposition Leader's handling of his job.

It's a dismal picture all round.

Comments

[Luthor on 27.09.05 at 18:06]

No surprises - You can hear it out in the community at almost every level people believe the country is heading in the wrong direction.

Yet while the PLP have underperformed the UBP haven't put forward a vision of what they would do better, while they have done a good job of attracting credible candidates who don't have the stink of "selling out" or "Uncle Tomism" on them, too many people can't see voting out the PLP in favor of a party with a white leader.

I've heard so many people talking about starting another party, getting rid of the pary system and folks that ain't gonna happen! We are pretty much stuck with what we got and unless those of us who are sick of what is going on in this country start holding our politicians accountable expect much more of the same for years to come.

If God had wanted us to vote he would have given us candidates!

[ace on 27.09.05 at 18:27]

Just exactly who are the "Asian" participants in all of these studies? Are they Bermudian? They sure seem to tip the scale in many of these surveys.

[Raptor on 27.09.05 at 18:28]

Why doesn't Grant give it up?

[Big Bad Wolf ^..^ on 27.09.05 at 18:44]

Raptor dont worry he will be gone very soon...Looks like Bob Richards will be in the cat bird seat....That's all they have at the moment!

[jake on 27.09.05 at 18:53]

I think what you are seeing is that people are unhappy with Alex Scott, his election, and Independence.

People still support the PLP and not the UBP.

Sounds about right to me. Now if we can chuck out Alex and Ashfield, put in Paula, forget Independence, build some damn houses, give Gay people equal protection under the Human Rights, get rid of term limits, give Dr. Sean O'Connell his job back and an apology and get this education thing privatised and competitive, we would be on our way.

Oh, and vote Grant Gibbons in for life at the UBP, with Jamal Simmons as his lifetime Deputy.

My own personal view of heaven.

[jake on 27.09.05 at 18:56]

Bob Richards? Are we saying that because he is black or because he is a leader?

I think he would be as honest a leader as Grant for sure, so he gets points there. Enthusiasm?

Not so sure. I think that he would be great for the PLP as well.

Small change: Grant Gibbons for life, or Bob Richards.

[Bill Cook on 27.09.05 at 19:47]

Why should political candidates not be held to the same standards as excutives in any large corporation ?

At the moment we do not even have a sanity test.

I am suggesting that a raving lunatic would be elected but surely at least a simple IQ or recognised intelligence test would be desirable.

A track record of some success in a recognisable enterprise that would be useful in running a country.

Recognised for honesty and fairness by the majority of people in decision making.

Lastly if not charisma at least humility and the willingness to go up to any common citizen in the street and ask him how he viewed the quality of life in Bermuda and any suggestions to improve it.

[SmokingGun on 27.09.05 at 20:01]

"A track record of some success in a recognisable enterprise that would be useful in running a country.

Recognised for honesty and fairness by the majority of people in decision making." Bill Cook

Bill, he just got hired to help run tourism.....

[twocents on 27.09.05 at 20:15]

Kim Swan would be a better leader than Grant Gibbons, or Bob Richards.

He has the right combo of smarts, personality, and attitude to be a sucess as leader of the party, but from what I hear he has already turned down the suggestion.

[Red Riding Hood (.)(.) on 27.09.05 at 21:25]

The only real way to shed the image of the UBP being run by whites is through a leadership battle.

If the black electorate sees the black caucus of the UBP as having their way and being in control then maybe there's hope. Otherwise they will always be seen as Sir David Gibbons's bitches.

[Big Bad Wolf ^..^ on 27.09.05 at 21:40]

Two Cents you either like to be stroked or you like waffle for breakfast! Kim has a hard time finding where the light switch is on the wall.Bob is all they have at the moment...out of a weak deck....He would be a bridge to a new generation of UBP leadership...Water water everywhere and all the boards did shrink. STC. Anyway slap yourself and think again....And Jake you and the She Elephant have a thing going on like Mrs Jones....She doesnt cut no ice by. Later ^..^ gone wild! COX IS NO FOX ...so forget that train wreck....In your dreams....Maybe they are Jake -X rated.

[Luthor on 27.09.05 at 21:56]

My own personal view of heaven would be 2 viable political parties that offer a real choice.

The PLP's problems are not going to be solved by simply throwing some dead weight overboard any more than the UBP's problems would be solved by throwing Gibbons over board. The PLP has for too long valued loyalty over ability and that has created a serious void on the bench when it comes to talent. Look at how many intelligent, articulate individuals have been chased out of Alaska Hall - Kenny Bascome, Jamahl Simmons, Corin Smith, Gerald Fubler, Gina Spence, Leonard Santucci, etc. The PLP would have been in a stronger position if they had worked to be more inclusive of people who weren't yes men.

The other issue is credibility, less and less people are believing what the government has to say and even less are listening. I don't think even building houses would save the PLP at this point because the trust has simply evaporated. When you run a campaign saying "give me more time" and "give me another chance" people expect results not lies and excuses.

I would like to see a massive overhaul of the PLP with leadership that is in touch with the original values of the party. People like Otiwell Simmons who understands first and foremost that the PLP is a Labour Party and that they should be looking out for the little guy not just themselves. They need to take a stand on corruption and unethical behaviour and deal with it and stop ducking it. They need to remember that much of the behaviour they are displaying is the same as what they fought against for 30 years.

As for the UBP they need to recognise that their problem isn't their leader its their approach to politics. They need to stand on principals instead of trying to position themselves on the right side of the electorate. If a change of leadership doesn't bring with it a change in direction. With that needs to come an alternate vision - people need to know what the UBP stands for, know that they are not willing to compromise their beliefs and know that they are willing to stand up for what is right not just what is politically expedient.

Anyway my dream PLP team would be strange as it may seem to some people would be Otiwell Simmons as Premier with Paula Cox as deputy. I have a tremendous amount of respect for Paula but I don't think that she has the temperment, nor the authority to fix the party at this time.

My UBP dream team would be Wayne Furbert as UBP leader - he's a solid individual who despite his modest speaking ability would definitely put the UBP in a different direction with either Neville Darrell, Michael Dunkley or Jamahl Simmons as deputy

[SmokingGun on 27.09.05 at 22:15]

The Otter? I just don't know. Looking out for the little guy is fine but I Askew, shutting down the whole island over a few is a good thing? I don't think so. I'm not a fan of unions in today's world although having said that I do know a few companies that would probably fold if they didn't have a union workforce.
Besides, if we had him we'd never get rid of the 15% gratuity included.

[Big Bad Wolf ^..^ on 27.09.05 at 22:16]

Garbage in Garbage out!

[Somers on 28.09.05 at 10:24]

"too many people can't see voting out the PLP in favor of a party with a white leader." - Luthor

Anyone else see a problem with this attitude???

[Bill Cook on 28.09.05 at 10:52]

I have long been a supporter of a strong and moral trade union and was a member of Printers and Paper workers union in NI but unions have a tendency not to handle power responsibly.

OS may have started out well but did not stay well in my opinion.

I am horrified that hard working men and women of modest means, had their pension contributions stolen by employers, for so many years and absolutely no one did a thing about this travesty, least of all those who should as they are paid to fight for workers rights.
Now when those workers become pensionable they are short changed,its just plain robbery.

I am by no means saying they were the only ones that dropped the ball but it was in their portfolio of responsibilities.

No way should labour leaders in a trade union be involved in politics in my opinion as you cant serve two masters.

[Raptor on 28.09.05 at 11:13]

Luthor writes of the PLP: "They need to remember that much of the behaviour they are displaying is the same as what they fought against for 30 years."

Yup. Remember that old saying, "Watch out, or you become what you hate." It's amazing how often that happens.

"Too many people can't see voting out the PLP in favor of a party with a white leader."

Somers writes: "Anyone else see a problem with this attitude???"

Sure, there's a problem with this attitude. But it's where we're at. One of the big problems right now is that we have two parties that are not viable in the sense of how they are perceived (accurate or not), which is that neither one has the interests of all Bermudians at heart. Luthor is being realistic. The fact is that a white face on the leadership of the UBP, especially a Gibbons, is not exactly something many black Bermudians are comfortable with. Especially after Sir John essentially says blacks in the UBP are thwarted in leadership by the whites. It's just not going to fly. Big issues of perception and trust.

[jake on 28.09.05 at 13:49]

If you think that people's problem with the UBP is a white leader, you misread them.

Their problem is that they lack trust. The majority of PLP supporters and middle of the road voters still remember the 'old' UBP and do not trust the cast of characters parading about today.

To suggest that a mere switch of leaders is the solution is to miss the lesson of Dame Pamela Gordon, who was articulate and black. Why did they not win with her?

I submit that the answer lies in the UBP machine being too concerned with its own interests than with the people.

Yes the PLP have similar accusations launched against them now, some with merit. But they also have a more talented bench of MP's. The UBP do not have the thought leaders in the House. They have the noise makers.

[The Limey on 28.09.05 at 13:54]

jake

How do you think the UBP could win back that trust?

[sleepy on 28.09.05 at 14:22]

The UBP have the "noise makers" Jake? You do Randy Horton and his colleagues a great disservice. I think they'd be offended that you don't give them their due.

But seriously, the biggest complaint I hear about the UBP is that they are too timid, not vocal enough.

[lickinalong on 28.09.05 at 14:23]

Jake,
You're right.... but you're also wrong.

I don't think that the UBP have a hope in hell in getting back in with a white leader at the moment. I don't care whether its Grant, John or Michael. That's why the PLP was ecstatic at the election of Grant as UBP leader after the '98 election. It is a giveaway and you and your mates in the PLP know it.

Many black Bermudians clearly prefer to have black leadership. That doesn't mean that they will not vote for a white Bermudian but it does raise the bar substantially for them to consider voting for a white Bermudian leader. I figure this factor alone gives a 2 to 3% advantage to the PLP, pretty close to the margin of difference between the two parties in the last election. For a party like the UBP which you rightly confirm does not have the highest level of trustworthiness with the black community, a white leader is just one more reason and excuse not to trust the UBP. In my view, the first step in getting the UBP re-elected is to have a black leader. The next step is for that leader to improve the level of trust with the black community by changing the party.

I can't wait for that to happen and the UBP to become a predominantly black party because then I become a swing voter, no longer taken for granted by both political parties.

By the way, I am not impressed with the talent in either political party. Both parties seem to have a limited talent pool.

[Guilden M. Gilbert, Jr. on 28.09.05 at 14:58]

Limey,

"How do you think the UBP could win back that trust?"

Come on now, Jake has stated time and time again that he could not and would not cast his vote for the UBP, so why on earth would he provide any suggestions to make them better?

[Guilden M. Gilbert, Jr. on 28.09.05 at 15:03]

Limey,

I will offer this though. The UBP should take some look at the steps take by their former counterpart in the Bahamas, the United Bahamian Party (UBP). I think they could learn a great deal about what they need to do.

[loki on 28.09.05 at 15:04]

"Come on now, Jake has stated time and time again that he could not and would not cast his vote for the UBP, so why on earth would he provide any suggestions to make them better?"

There's definitely some validity in that - a bit like asking me what the PLP could do to make independence more palatable to the electorate.........

[Uncle Elvis on 28.09.05 at 16:40]

I dunno about that, loki. I think both you and jake are hip enough to play devil's advocate if asked.
I hope jake DOES offer some suggestions to make the UBP better. We should all be doing this, actually, offering ideas and plans to make both parties better. I hope that we are all grown-up enough to realize that improving BOTH parties would be the best thing for Bermuda.
Can you imagine what would happen if we could just throw away our party alliances and say, "Here's what the PLP needs, here's what the UBP needs?"
Or if we realized just how much power we have, as voters, and said to them "Listen. Here's what I'm gonna need you to do if you want my vote."?
We need to throw away the old "UBP are a bunch of white opressors"/PLP are angry black radicals" mentality and expect, no, DEMAND that they stand for something, anything. We need to stop voting for a party because "My daddy did". We need to stop voting for a party because of what colour we are... they are... whatever. We need to chuck all this crap away, both voters and politicians (Actually, throwing away the politicians wouldn't be so bad either! *End Groucho Marx impression*) and figure out what we want, where we want to go. Then, if the one party doesn't deliver, we need to go to the other party and say, "Look. Here's the deal. You want in? Fine. I'll vote for you. You'll get a chance. But here's what I want. I want housing, I want you to do something about crime. I want to see a plan, start to finish of what you're going to do, and I want to see you do it. If not, those guys that are fucking up now? They get another try. And we'll keep doing this until ONE of you bastards wakes the hell up and starts doing what we goddamn tell you!"

This is the way it's set up to work, but, like religion, it's not the idea that's flawed, it's the assholes.

Whaddaya say?

[Pitts Bay on 28.09.05 at 16:54]

Uncle Elvis - what a utopia!!

It will never be, and I can not think of anywhere in the world that politics is truely played like that.(however unlike the BIC, I freely admit that I have done no research on whether it has actually happened somewhere else, and so could be wrong)

I suppose it should the the ideal that we strive for, but maybe we would be setting our goals a little too high.

[Guilden M. Gilbert, Jr. on 28.09.05 at 17:00]

Uncle Elvis,

You make a very good point but now let's deal with reality, what you are suggesting "ain't gonna" happen. Anywhere there is party politics voters will take sides, plain and simple. The sad thing is most voters don't even know what "their" party truly stands for.

The political leaders don't share their ideas until an election is called. We go five years without a single idea coming out of the Opposition (before you jump on me both parties have been the Opposition) but once that election date is set they produce their ideas to fix every problem in the world. Political success, at the end of the day, comes down to the extent of your promises. Voters know from experience that less than 10% of the promises made will be fulfilled but the promises paint a pretty picture and the savvy politician paints such a vivid picture that the voter can actually see it in colour.

[Uncle Elvis on 28.09.05 at 17:01]

Yeah, I know it's utopian, but maybe, just maybe, it could work. It's at least worth a try.

My grandfather always used to say, "Aim for the stars. Y'might land on the roof."

'course he also used to say, "Get the hell away from my beer, y'little bastard!", so...

(Actually, he never said either, but the one phrase of wisdom of his that I carry to this day is:

Life ain't no dress rehearsal, it's the one and only performance.

I like that.

[Bill Cook on 28.09.05 at 17:43]

Unc,

Hope your parish priest does not hear you say that !

But on the other hand your old man and I would get on famously !

The most moral people on the face of the earth in my op. the San people of the Kalihari have no political parties no crime either,follow the 10 commandments without ever having seen them,we could learn a lot from them.

[SmokingGun on 28.09.05 at 17:54]

Elvis - Are you advocating an issues based election but whereby colour is not an issue? Well women may be from Venus, maybe we could get some politicians from Mars. Little green ones.

All joking aside....it would be very helpful if our country were run by people who only saw themselves as policy makers for the benefit of all Bermuda. Unfortunately there are just too many temptations to keep their eye on the ball. And as we all are aware, the parties never work with or for each other. It's all ego and one-upmanship.

[lickinalong on 28.09.05 at 17:57]

One thing we have learned is that the UBP and the PLP are really very similar. Once in power, they have both bowed to the god of personal gratification and first looked after themselves. In the process both the UBP and the PLP have become arrogant in power. I's a bit like black and white Bermudians, we are 99% similar but always focus on the 1% of differences between us. So it is with UBP and PLP politicians. There are really more similarities than differences between them. It's just in our heads we think that they are different.

[The Limey on 28.09.05 at 18:22]

Guilden

Come on now, Jake has stated time and time again that he could not and would not cast his vote for the UBP, so why on earth would he provide any suggestions to make them better?

Because (as Uncle Elvis has already pointed out), it's in Bermuda's best interests to have more than one political party that people feel they could vote for when a general election rolls around.

Moreover, because both the PLP and UBP are pretty centrist, I think there are very few people who would never vote for one or the other because of ideology. Given certain changes, I could certainly see myself voting PLP one day, and I don't think either you or jake are such ideologues that there's nothing the UBP could do to perhaps one day win your vote.

Now perhaps we would require the party to change more than they are willing to do, but we all ought to be able and willing to article what those changes are (Loki that includes you). Because if the parties were to change in the way we want them to, that would be a good thing, wouldn't it?

For example, perhaps you'd say the UBP has to get rid of anyone involved in the party before 1998. Perhaps you'd require them to have an intelligent black leader and deputy leader. Perhaps you'd want them to have a position on gay rights or say what they would do if Bermudians voted for independence in a referendum.

I'm certainly not afraid to say what the PLP would have to do to get my vote (if I had one). Primarily, I would want them to have a better racial mix. I would want them to acknowledge where they make mistakes and detail how they would put things right. I would want Alex Scott to show more sensitivity to the Island's views on independence. And I would want to hear them coming up with more ideas and initiatives on tackling crime and housing. But if they did all (or just most) of that, then I'd be happy to have the PLP in power.

Similarly, here's how the Government could make the independence debate more palatable to me. I wouldn't mind if Bermuda chose independence because a clear majority of Bermudians said that's what they wanted (though I'm still undecided about what a 'clear majority' would be). So I don't mind the PLP talking about independence. But I want to hear them acknowledge that most Bermudians are opposed. I want to hear them promise to have a referendum so there can be no doubt about whether that 'clear majority' exists or not. And I want to hear them treat those who may not share their views with respect. I just want them to treat the issue fairly.

So let's not be afraid of sharing our ideas on how all parties could improve and make themselves more appealing. It can only be a good thing if the PLP becomes more attractive to traditional UBP supporters and the UBP becomes more attractive to traditional PLP supporters.

[SmokingGun on 28.09.05 at 18:29]

Lickinalong you are quite correct. The truth is there is really very little that any political party can do with Bermuda. We have limited resources, space, people etc and therefore a good leadership will just make sure things work well with the things we do have and stay focused. Unfortunately they all seem to think in grandiose ways that they can re-invent the whole place and everyone will just go along with it so they have some great legacy to leave behind.

It's like driving a horse & buggy in Bermuda. Someone may give you the reigns but you've still got a narrow road that goes full circle.

[SmokingGun on 28.09.05 at 18:38]

Limey, regarding a clear majority I would propose the 60/40 rule. It works for business therefore it should work for Bermudian Sovereignty. If 60% of the island votes for independence in a referendum then we all can toss the knee socks.

[Pitts Bay on 28.09.05 at 18:44]

Smoking - while I agree with your percentages (but then again I am not generally in favour of independence), I don't think that is what Alex has in mind as a majority. My personal belief is that he would look to at least 50.1% as the necessary approval.

[jake on 28.09.05 at 18:47]

I have no problem with suggestions on improving the UBP.

First off is to stop looking at black people as if we are less sophisticated than white people. Why do you believe that whites will accept a quality black leader, but blacks will not accept a quality white leader.

Example: Bill Clinton. It is accepted knowledge that Bubba has the loyalty of the black community and has never lost it - even during his scandals. He has been called the first "black" president. How does he do it? He identifies with black people as people first, and does not offend with comments about the "black" church. Strangely enough the old UBP members knew how to get black votes. They talked to people and helped out when the election was over. Black people are no more stupid than white people. They respond to sincerity and people who address their issues.

Stop putting forward people who are discredited in the black community, but happen to be black and willing to stand for the UBP. To the black professional PLP supporter, they do not see Kim Swan as a peer, nor Jamal Simmons. Bob Richards - yes.

On issues, be prepared to call out wrong for wrong but avoid being petty. The english call it over egging the pudding. Americans hyperbole. I call it Grant Gibbons whining about non-points and the Royal Gazette persecuting black businessmen. It makes people believe there is a conspiracy when the RG, Limey, the Mid-Ocean, Tom Vesey, and the BBC are all singing from the same song sheet. Are you telling me there is no dirt in the UBP? Before you tell me they are not the Government, review the coverage of the PLP from 1988 - 1998. Terrible. Same as what we have now, actually.

Do something. There is enough money in the UBP to build 30 low cost houses. Do it and show the public how it can be done. Go ahead chorus: they are not the Government. I know that, but in Bermuda it is a show me world. Graphs and pictures don't mean ta ta and we all know that the Gibbons' alone could profitably support such a project.

Bring forward better white candidates. Yes, those guys suck too. There are plenty of white Bermudians who "speak their mind" and "tell it like it is" who would get black support from the grass roots if they came forward. I know one guy who was in charge of Labour Relations at Telco who was a GENIOUS in calling people's bluff and working with the Union. If he was in politics he would get support. Barritts are good at it and so were the cox guys back in the day.

Stop apologising for being white. It serves no purpose and people don't believe you anyway. Fix the lights, put your kids in school with mine and become a part of the PTA.

That will win you votes.

[SmokingGun on 28.09.05 at 18:51]

Pitts Bay, I think you are absolutely right. And that's why I wanted to propose the 60/40 now. Technically if he allows for a referendum, can he stipulate that 50.1% is a "clear" majority or is there a higher authority who would decide the percentage?

[jake on 28.09.05 at 18:58]

Phil,

I understand your need to have more white faces, but I think it is wrong footed.

Why?

Do I ask XL to have more black faces? Ace? No. I also did not ask the UBP for more black faces.

I want the best people. Obviously we are not getting the best people if we have no white people. Some of the best people are white.

But the issue is not window dressing when I address it like that. There are white people in the PLP. Are they the best people? There are black people in the UBP. Are they the best people?

That is why I like the Bermuda Regiment. It is not perfect, but when I was attached to them at least the white guys I served with were merit promoted, as were the black.

I remember a white Private Soldier telling a Sgt. Major to stop calling him white boy. Brave. Took huge balls. The next words out of the Sgt. Major's mouth were to this dark skinned kid calling him black f*cker. Then he said to the white Private: there. Are you happy?

It was a victory for the white kid because he FORCED a senior rank to think about the issue. Perhaps the result could have been better, but I have not heard him say white boy since.

If we want to put race down, we have to be more precise in what we will be basing our choices on, and then let the chips fall where they may. There will not always be a 60/40 split or 70/30 or whatever. Let's hope we just get the best people.

[SmokingGun on 28.09.05 at 19:10]

Good response Jake. Now about Bubba. I played in a foursome following him on a golf course and I thought he was black. Oh, sorry, that was Vernon Jordon. Only kidding.......:)

Actually there are a lot of articles on why he was well liked by the black community. Our pols would do well to read them, all our pols that is.

Also, funny you mention building houses. I was thinking the exact same thing just the other day when John Swan got up and repeated everything we all had been discussing right here on ALIB. Why doesn't he put up something? He's got cash and know how and seeing as he has some connections with the UBP, hit them up for some extra dough. All this talk and no action is for the kiskadees.

[Uncle Elvis on 28.09.05 at 20:10]

"Do something. There is enough money in the UBP to build 30 low cost houses. Do it and show the public how it can be done"

jake, I couldn't agree more!

If either of the parties truly want to get in based on leadership skills, they should put their money were their mouth is!

I know there would be cries of politicking if the someone were to, say, hook up with BLDC and snag a track of land, build a bunch of houses on it and say, "Ok. This is what we did, here's how we did it, here's how much it cost, we just proved it's doable. This low-cost housing brought to you by the letters U, B and P."
But you know what?
The smart response to criticism would be:

"And? So what if we're trying to get votes? There's six families with a roof over their heads. That's what matters."

If the UBP became a force in the community, galvanizing industry leaders and rich white folks to do something about the topics that we all agree need to be worked on (housing, drugs, crime, etc.), not that they don't do a lot for us already, I'm not saying that, I personally believe that NO amount of mudslinging and whatever would keep them out of power.
Same goes for the PLP. If they would get off their butts and actually DO something, instead of constantly talking about making plans, or having plans or having things in the works, the UBP would be dead in the water. (Deader?)

Guilden, I know my suggestions are a pipe dream. Like the Tshirt says, "Reality is for those without imagination". Just kidding.
It's a pipe dream to think we'll get a charismatic leader with skills and drive that gives half a shit about all of us. Or a party that isn't just looking out for themselves.

But maybe, just maybe, if we spread the word a little, put the thought into people's heads, it might work, even a little.
Don't you think that if a community that is in desperate need of housing were to have some resolve and say to their politician, "Look. We need houses. Badly. You HAVE to get them to us. If you don't, we WILL vote for the other side." that someone MIGHT listen?

I dunno. Maybe I'm an idealist. I just want my Bermuda back.

[Bud on 28.09.05 at 20:58]

This is where so many UBP supporters get confused. Those who think that the UBP has not really done anything wrong and does not really have to change are focused on political strategy. The objective therefore is to do what is required to hoodwink the public into supporting them. The tactics used include stacking the deck with black faces (no matter how mediocre), making half-assed attempts at improving race relations and taking every petty opportunity to try and score political points. I believe that black voters have wisened up to this game, but hey, the right amount of press support could do the trick.

Bob Richards is the best choice for leader of the UBP (or any political party), not because he is black. He is the best choice because he has demonstrated (through his articles) very little interest in politicking and winning the next election. His attention has been focused on developing a greater understanding of the real issues that face this island. He is practically a lone warrior across both political parties who is comfortable making much money, while proving that he does really give a damn about the most sensitive and prickly subjects. I won't vote for the UBP, because there are far too few MPs like Bob Richards, and I have no reason to believe that the majority of UBP supporters share Bob's concerns on things like institutionalised racism.

If someone like Richards was to start his own party, he could certainly attract that breed of politician who thinks, plans and acts. Most politicians are incredibly dumb, while Richards seems incredibly smart AND concerned. My loins get warm at the thought of him starting something on his own.

[The Limey on 28.09.05 at 21:01]

jake

I completely agree with you about having the best people. I no more want whites in the PLP to be window dressing than I want blacks in the UBP to be window dressing. But like you said, obviously the PLP are not getting the best people if there are no white faces. And regardless of the reason for that, without white representation I have to wonder if the party can understand the "white point of view" (insofar as such a thing exists).

[Uncle Elvis on 28.09.05 at 21:47]

OK. Bud, PLEASE don't take this the wrong way. I'm asking this in all sincerity. I'm not trying to be funny, I'm not trying to start something, I'm asking because I generally want to know.

Could you give me some examples of institutionalized racism in Bermuda?

I'm not saying they don't exist, I'm not trying to trick you up, I'm honestly just asking.

[Bud on 28.09.05 at 22:10]

"I'm not saying they don't exist, I'm not trying to trick you up, I'm honestly just asking."

And I'm honestly not going to answer that question.

Vote BRABSP! Bob Richards Anti-BS Party

[Uncle Elvis on 28.09.05 at 22:18]

Ok, again. I ask this in all sincerity.

Why will you not answer?

I am honestly curious.

[SmokingGun on 28.09.05 at 22:33]

Uncle E - When your loins get warm, it's hard to concentrate.

[Bud on 28.09.05 at 22:40]

"Ok, again. I ask this in all sincerity.

Why will you not answer?

I am honestly curious."

Because it's like asking me to prove that water wet.

[Uncle Elvis on 28.09.05 at 23:06]

Bud, I'm not following your logic. Please, I'm not trying to be a dick, honestly.

Are you saying that institutions, or society in general are racist, like water is intrinsically wet. You can't prove that water is wet because wetness is an intrinsic aspect of water. Therefore, society as an institution is intrinsically racist?

I'm being totally serious.
I do not understand the correlation. Surely there must be one, or hopefully several provable instances of institutionalized racism still existing in Bermuda culture.

If you think I'm trying to start something, I promise you, I'm not. It's just what you said did strike a chord.
I know we've had our differences. I don't like you much and you probably don't like me much. That's fine.
But I'm asking you these questions as someone who is genuinely interested in finding these things out.
I wholeheartedly oppose institutionalized racism as a concept and will oppose any instances that are offered. I mean that. I do believe that judging, opressing or holding back someone based on the colour of their skin is just wrong, plain and simple, and I will fight, side-by-side with you, tooth and nail, if you'll have me, against this.

I just need to know what I'm fighting.

[Full Fullish on 28.09.05 at 23:07]

Bud -
"Because it's like asking me to prove that water wet."

That is a load of crap. You are one of the more frequent posters here, I have agreed with some of the things you have said in the past. I've posed a similar question that Uncle Elvis has, except mine was for more personal racism experiences instead of institutionalized racism and I too was met with silence. You have been one of the loudest people to say that White people don't participate in anti racism events.......well mate, you've got our ear now, and now you choose not to participate. I want to know this to become more aware of it as I plan on participating in anti-racism, however if you choose to play coy then I'm going to take you for being full of BS yourself. Now either step up to the wicket and speak your mind or step down and not mention anything further.

[Luthor on 28.09.05 at 23:15]

Bob Richards is a bright guy, who I have tremendous respect for, but let's face facts PLP supporters have had two opportunities to vote him into Parliament in extremely marginal seats and they have rejected him handily. For all his strengths he represents the old black UBP as much as Grant Gibbons represents the old white UBP. All brains, no compassion.

People like Kim Swan, et al may not be viewed as peers by black PLP professionals - whatever that means, but in my opinion they represent a breath of fresh air compared to some of the characters the UBP used to push on black voters. I know that as a former die hard PLP supporter it sent a shudder through me when people I knew and respected from the Progressive Youth such as Corin Smith, Jamahl Simmons and people who had helped build the party like Kenny Bascome and Gerald Fubler popped up as supporters and candidates of the UBP because I know what they stand for and like them I soon realized that it was the PLP that had changed not them.

Bud has hit the nail on the head in one regard however, the UBP's strategy has always been to get 100% or near that of the white vote and 10-15% of the black vote, 25% in a good year. In a constituency where the number of whites to 35% you are looking at a marginal or a UBP safe seat.

That strategy which worked well with stronger candidates and gerrymandered seats in a different era simply doesn't work now. Today they are a minority party representing minority interests and aren't consistently espousing views that have credibility or resonance with the majority of Bermudians.They are still operating under a flawed strategy despite all their personnel changes

The UBP needs to build a vision that is clear, bold, consistent and easily understandable. For 30 years the PLP pushed for single seat constituencies and independence - can any of us point to one thing the UBP stands for that they have believed in for 30 years other than the platitudes of "diversity?"

A vision gives people something they can buy into and see themselves a part of. Character, consistency and reliability breeds trust and that doesn't happen overnight - people could plot the evolution of the PLP as they refined and moderated their positions - the only way we can tell that the UBP has changed is by the faces. I wish them well however because they have some very good people over there some of whom have gone through hell and back because of their association with the UBP both economically and socially - but despite that I know that if they get their act together they will make us proud

[Bud on 29.09.05 at 07:44]

"Are you saying that institutions, or society in general are racist, like water is intrinsically wet. You can't prove that water is wet because wetness is an intrinsic aspect of water. Therefore, society as an institution is intrinsically racist?"

I'm saying that it is overly obvious and undeniable that institutionalised racism exists in this country, just as it is overly obvious and undeniable that water is wet. If you can't see that water is wet, it is because you are in denial or have been walking around with blinders on. Just go back to John Swan's complaint. He is talking about deliberate racism, and you have to assume that some form of structural racism would follow.

"I know we've had our differences. I don't like you much and you probably don't like me much. That's fine."

Now, now, Elvis. When I write "you" I generalised (kind of like when Eva says "in general"), I said the majority of whites, based on actual evidence blah, blah, blah. I did not mean YOU PERSONALLY. So believe it or not, I have no reason not to like you personally. For all I know, you could be a very cool guy despite all the other race stuff, and the fact that you have hung in with this "discussion" has actually scored you some points with me.

Full Fullish,

"I want to know this to become more aware of it as I plan on participating in anti-racism, however if you choose to play coy then I'm going to take you for being full of BS yourself. "

There is a wealth of information out there that demonstrates how past racism affects the black community today. If you have not seen it, it is because you haven't looked for it. If you can't find it after looking, it would be because you are in denial. Just start from this one simple question and take it from there: Why is the white community so much wealthier than the black community? Is it purely because the white community is just chock full of geniuses, or is it also because racism is easily perpetuated by racist and or apathetic communities that aren't really interested in correcting the mistakes of the past? Again, just go back to John Swan, Jim Woolridge, etc.

PS: This is all off topic. Find an institutionalised racism thread and move this over there.

[The Limey on 29.09.05 at 08:03]

Bud (don't want to respond to you because I know you won't give me an answer, but I can't help myself)

it is overly obvious and undeniable that institutionalised racism exists in this country

In which institutions? Name one.

(For example, the UK police force was found to be institutionally racist a few years back. That identification enabled them to start taking concrete steps to eliminate that culture in that institution.)

[loki on 29.09.05 at 08:08]

You see, Phil, it wasn't necessary for Bud to provide evidence of his bigoted assertions regarding whites, but this same standard doesn't apply when whites ask for evidence regarding racist acts by whites against blacks. Get with the program, Phil.

[Bud on 29.09.05 at 09:24]

Gentlemen or ladies,

It is not necessary for me to point it out. Like I said, it is like discussing whether or not water is wet. I totally accept that you do not believe that institutionalised racism exists, despite all the evidence to the contrary. I totally accept that you believe that things are the way they should be despite Bermuda's legacy of racial and sexual discrimination. We live in a utopia, blacks are entirely to blame for their own situtaion, only the PLP is racist to the contrary of the "see no evil" policies of the UBP, no matter how many Bob Richards, John Swans and Jim Woolridge's stand up and speak about racism, no matter how much data can be produced showing that past discrimination has had a direct result on current policies, wealth, education and carreers - I get it, fellas, institutionalised racism does not exist. You'll vote for Swan, Richards, etc., despite thinking they are full of rubbish on things like racism. Can we please move on?

[Two Cents on 29.09.05 at 09:26]

Bud, you said

"Elvis….For all I know, you could be a very cool guy" ...well Bud you'd be wrong, he's not that cool. (Actually he’s one of best mates”).

Only joking but in all seriousness, As much as I’ve enjoyed Elvis & you being at each others throats, once we get past the semantics, I am sure this debate should’ve progressed much better/faster. Obviously you are both firm believers in what you think is right & wrong, I feel at this point you should both agree to disagree….......This thread is driving me nuts !!!!!!!

[Guilden M. Gilbert, Jr. on 29.09.05 at 09:40]

Lime & Loki,

Surely you are not implying that racism does not exist in Bermuda? Why is it necessary for Bud to give a example of institutionalised racism? So its 2005 does that mean that all of a sudden racism no longer exist?

If you want an example of institutionalised racism you only need go back a few years to the comment by Jim Woolridge:

"These whites boys don't mind a black boy being in charge as long as they can tell him what to do." He was referring to the blacks who were in senior positions within the UBP yet they had no real say withing the party.

We have gone through this issue of proof and examples before. When Jake, Onion and I talked about the mortgages of many blacks being called we were asked for examples. Some believe it never happened but the reality is, if you were not a part of the black community you may not know it happened. Just because you don't know something has happened does not mean it didn't happen.

There have been many reports conducted in Bermuda, one of which was, I believe, the Tumin Report, that have shown that institutionalised racism does exist. The current Harold Darrell case gives some insight that there is still racism in Bermuda. Is that case not a case of institutionalised racism?

Why are we trying to deny that racism still exists? It exist around the world, what makes Bermuda so different?

Limey, you have reviewed the latest Census report you know that across the board blacks earn less than whites. You think that's just a coincidence? Come on get your head out of the sand. The first step toward healing and reconciliation is acknowledging that there is a problem and facing the problem head on. Denial solves nothing.

[lo on 29.09.05 at 09:50]

"Surely you are not implying that racism does not exist in Bermuda? Why is it necessary for Bud to give a example of institutionalised racism?"

Absolutely not. Institutionalised, though? Not so sure at this point. My point was less to do with whether or not it existed, but more with Bud's hypocrisy and double standards insofar as his own bigotry was concerned (he makes sweeping and bigoted generalizations without providing a SHRED of evidence), compared to his approach when he whites ask for evidence of institutionalized racism.

[Alcofrolics on 29.09.05 at 09:57]

Bud

I would just like to make one comment on what you said. Other people on the forum are asking for examples of institutional racism currently occurring that they can try to change. You response to that was to say

"There is a wealth of information out there that demonstrates how PAST racism affects the black community today"

That's not what they were asking, they were asking where the racism is occurring TODAY. People want to help stop this occurring, but until they know who, what, where and how it is CURRENTLY happening, how can you stop it?

[loki on 29.09.05 at 09:57]

"The current Harold Darrell case gives some insight that there is still racism in Bermuda. Is that case not a case of institutionalised racism?"

No. An allegation has been made, that is all. Before making a statement like that, Guilden, I would review some of the evidence in the case first.

[Uncle Elvis on 29.09.05 at 09:59]

I'm sorry if my questions seemed disingenuous. They weren't intended to be anything but honest questions to help me clarify.
I wasn't trying to deny that it exists, in fact, I SAID that I wasn't in my initial post.

I just honestly wanted to know. I wan't demanding, I was asking. I wan't trying to trip Bud up, I really, really wanted to know.

Guilden has pointed out an example, with the mortgages. This is what I wanted to know.
He then says: "Just because you don't know something has happened does not mean it didn't happen"

This is my point, Guilden. I don't know all that has happened and I was asking to be educated by people who obviously DO know.

Guys, I'm being totally serious here. I honestly and truly want to know about this stuff and am offering you a chance to educate me, and hopefully others, about it.

I say again:

I'm not trying to deny racism exists. I know it does. I just want to learn more, so I can do more to fight it.

Please. If we are all working to help and try to write the wrongs and create a society of equality, then please, I'm asking you, begging you, help me to understand.

[Guilden M. Gilbert, Jr. on 29.09.05 at 10:12]

Loki,

What statement did I make. I said the case gives some insight to the fact that racism still exists. The fact that the case has gone this far gives it some credibility. If there wasn't some strong evidence to suggest racism the case would have been thrown out years ago. Would it not?

Your personal view may be that the case has no merit but your personal view does not determine the outcome.

You took one portion of my post but you ignored others. Have you any comment on what Jim Woolridge said about the UBP? Or is that a non-issue? What about the contents of Tumin Report? Were the finding bogus?

As I said the first step to recovery and reconciliation is admitting that there is a problem.

[Big Bad Wolf ^..^ on 29.09.05 at 10:14]

Yep Guilden and the AME Church is actively recruiting White Ministers.

[Uncle Elvis on 29.09.05 at 10:21]

God. I wasn't trying to start this. I don't WANT this to start. I don't want another round of personal attacks. I wasn't asking for opinions, or viewpoints, I was asking for something concrete. A target that I can aim at. I'm sick of going 'round in circles about this. I don't want to do that any more. I just want to help. I don't know about this and was asking someone to help me understand. I wasn't demanding, I wasn't accusing, I was just asking.

[Guilden M. Gilbert, Jr. on 29.09.05 at 10:28]

Uncle Elvis,

How do we prove that mortgages were pulled? Name persons who had this experience? That's not going to happen. We have no right to do that.

Was the inaction of the U.S. Federal Government in the aftermath of Hurricane Katrina racist and classist? Many say it was, the Government says it wasn't. How do you prove it one way or the other if the party being accused has denied it? Many have said it seems strange that there was immediate deployment of troops to the Middle East to hunt down the terrorists responsible for 9/11 but there was a delay of a number of days in providing any assistance to the residents of New Orleans. Many have questioned why.

[loki on 29.09.05 at 10:28]

"If there wasn't some strong evidence to suggest racism the case would have been thrown out years ago. Would it not?"

Again, no. Read up on the history of the the case (and related cases involving the same parties) and review the evidence. I haven't made any statement on whether I consider the case to have merit, but to suggest, as you do, that the existence of case somehow is evidence of the existence of institutionalized racism is wrong.

[Guilden M. Gilbert, Jr. on 29.09.05 at 10:31]

Good point Wolf, but there are also very few whites who join the AME Church or attend services.

[Guilden M. Gilbert, Jr. on 29.09.05 at 10:33]

Loki,

We are all entitled to our opinions.

[loki on 29.09.05 at 10:36]

"Loki,

We are all entitled to our opinions."

Indeed, some of which are actually informed by knowledge of the legal process and the history of the case.

[Uncle Elvis on 29.09.05 at 10:42]

Um. Guilden, you brought up the mortgages, not I.

I wasn't asking for proof of the mortgages being pulled.

I was asking for examples of institutionalized racism in Bermuda.

I understand that it may seem that I'm trying something, or this is a ploy to trip you up, or as a way to prove it doesn't exist. It's not.
I promise you that.

[observor on 29.09.05 at 10:43]

Guiulden

"the case gives some insight to the fact that racism still exists."

How is it a FACT that racism played a part in Harold Darrell's claim? Until all the evidence is presented how can do you know for a FACT that racism is to blame?

[Guilden M. Gilbert, Jr. on 29.09.05 at 10:47]

Uncle Elvis,

I gave you an example of institutionalised racism. The Jim Woolridge comments.

[Uncle Elvis on 29.09.05 at 10:59]

Um. Guilden.

I know Jim Woolridge. He's a friend. He was there at the hospital the day I was born. We jokingly call each other father and son.
This has nothing to do with the topic at hand, but I thought I should mention it to save us any "You're saying that because he's black" arguments that may come up.

His comments, while probably valid, are just that. Comments.
They also referred to a time in the past. Not the recent past, either.
I'm not saying this to disrespect either him or you, but... well... it's not really an example of institutionalized racism currently going on.
The UBP are a shambles and probably couldn't win the election if it were held tomorrow, so they're not really a threat right now, are they?

Or is this still a case of the sins of the father?

I'm being serious about this. I am 100% ready to fight racism and do fight it where I see it.
I was just looking for new places to fight it. No-one has provided any.
I'm not saying there AREN'T any, I'm not disputing that there are. I'm saying that I don't know, and asking you to point me. To guide me. To help me.

[jake on 29.09.05 at 11:09]

Luthor,

Corin was in the Progressive Youth. Jamal Simmons was never in the Progressive Youth. He joined the party and was not given a leadership role in the time he felt was appropriate. He then went to the NLP. Same result. He then went to the UBP who put him forward in a historically safe UBP seat, where he "wins" the election. He is now a UBP MP with a record of ....(wait for it)...."ta ta".

To me it typifies what is wrong with the UBP.

Limey,

I don't know if a white point of view exists but I doubt it. Here is why. As a black person I know that there is a diversity of thought and belief in the black community. In the US there are the placard people and the deeply conservative people. There are gay people and homophobes. There are church members and bar stool sitters (and sometimes they are the same folks).

What unites black people is when we are treated badly because we are black. The same is true in the Jewish community. They have widely divergent views on everything from religion to lifestyle, but when it comes to the persecution of Jews they unite.

If there were a persecution of whites in Bermuda I could see that unification, but where is it?

Mass offense at the Plantation comments and an immediate backlash when Renee says black people should get more of the contracts than they do (and what is the counter - they should get less?) but where is the persecution.

Other than wolf (that seems to be a continuing intro line...hmmm) who else sees persecution of whites and the need for armed revolution?

Not me or the other many white Bermudians whose business interests have done very well during the PLP years.

So why do white people unify? Help me to understand that.

Wolf I just read your comment about the AME church. What bothers you about a church being called African? We have an Anglican church too. Does that bother you?

This is the kind of home grown racist comment that I grew up with and what divides us. What is wrong with a church created in response to organizations that would not allow black people in? Have the AME's ever turned white people away? Never. Are white people members? Yes.

Did the old Bermuda families he likes to praise do that with their churches and organizations? Yes. Is wolf rallying against them with trite bullshit comments? No.

Everytime I hear that kind of thing I know I will be voting for the PLP.

Now you know why.

[Uncle Elvis on 29.09.05 at 11:14]

"We have an Anglican church too. Does that bother you?"

Actually, the Anglican Church bothers me quite a bit!
*end Groucho impression*

They bother me, but not as often as the Jehovah's Witnesses do, and never early in the morning

*B'dum CHA*

Athankya... I'll be here all week. Tip your waitress.
You've been a great crowd.

[Big Bad Wolf ^..^ on 29.09.05 at 11:23]

Guilden is right and it cuts both ways...The more interesting thing is what are you going to do in your life to break these barriers down...I have suggested sport as a great starting point...the Social end will follow when real friendships develop out of such settings.If you do not like the History living in the present. DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT...End of story....Plus learn how to communicate and express your feelings clearly.

[Guilden M. Gilbert, Jr. on 29.09.05 at 11:26]

Uncle Elvis,

On the one hand you say you seriously want to address the issue of race than you turn around and make a joke out of the point that Jake has made.

Which is it? Are you "100% ready to fight racism" or is it al a joke to you?

[Big Bad Wolf ^..^ on 29.09.05 at 11:28]

Jake dont be so knee jerk...I'm saying that it cuts both ways and yes the whites started it first...and yes the AME was a product of that legacy ect ect I am pointing out that the legacy is with us all over our racial landscape..and it is holding us back...by the way I don't vote UBP either....So calm down!

[Guilden M. Gilbert, Jr. on 29.09.05 at 11:31]

Wolf,

I agree but I think before we can make any progress we need to stop with the back and forth nonsese.

We, PLP supporters, are accused of saying, "The UBP did it..." but the same concept can apply to many whites with their comments on racism. just look at your original comment about the AME Church, "Well, the "black" church doesn't hire any white minsiters."

The fact remains that over the centuries it is blacks who have receive the bulk of society's prejudices and rather than accepting that as fact, many white try to turn it around with, "Yeah that happened but look what (this black organisation) has done. We each need to admit our wrongs to continue with, "But he did it..." is not going to accomplish anything positive.

[Big Bad Wolf ^..^ on 29.09.05 at 11:38]

I'm a pond dog Jake....mixed breed with all the hot spices...I claim all my cousins...I'm under no allusions about our history and my dad's family which stretches back to 1620.Some did good some did bad....I'm trying the best I can to answer for my own life! I underline that most problems are with Humanity not race...just look at history...the Jews...the Ukraine starvation of the thirties by the Russians...The Congo...The Nigerian Civil ,China and Tibet War...Pol Pot and Cambodia...The Ethiopians and the Eritrians....the Masia and the Northern tribes...the Europeams and the American Indians...Dafur...and on and on...Humans treating other humans badly....What are we going to do about our bad natures. Acting on our equal measure of good would be a good start.

[loki on 29.09.05 at 11:41]

"Uncle Elvis,

On the one hand you say you seriously want to address the issue of race than you turn around and make a joke out of the point that Jake has made.

Which is it? Are you "100% ready to fight racism" or is it al a joke to you?"

And in breaking news - it has been confirmed: we're all doomed, destined to drown in a sea of pomposity and mistatement. Jesus, I really do despair sometimes.

[Big Bad Wolf ^..^ on 29.09.05 at 11:59]

Guilden I was trying to say that the problem is engrained all over our racial landscape...We also have a large Poutuguese community that chose largely to live seperate and apart...religion and language playing a role. We now have a growing Indian community that have the same challenge. I was never trying to say two wrongs make a right.I'm saying all of us have to get on the same boat.Bermuda is too small for all this racial sushi.

[Bill Cook on 29.09.05 at 11:59]

Wolf,

You left out the Irish when 1.5 million died of starvation at the zenith of Queen Victoria's reign,during the potato famine.

Disraeli's comment of they never looked so well summed up the attitude at the time, starvation is a particularly terrible way to die.

[SmokingGun on 29.09.05 at 12:01]

"These black boys don't mind a white boy being in charge as long as they can tell him what to do." He was referring to the whites who were in senior positions within the PLP yet they had no real say within the party."
Question: Could this comment ever happen? Probably not.
Question: Is the PLP practising institutionalized racism? Depends who's asking.

Elvis: Glad to hear you stopped apologising. You don't need to tell us you are being serious over and over, just post relevent questions or comments. The Jahovah bit was funny.

Guilden: Please give Elvis a break. You'll give him a complex. Besides we need to let others post a little humour once and a while. Helps relieve stress.

Jake: The reason you don't see whites circle the wagons is because it would just makes them look more racist in black peoples eyes which is something they are actually trying to look less like. Believe it or not. There gets a point where it's all just one big catch 22.

[Big Bad Wolf ^..^ on 29.09.05 at 12:07]

Jake I think any group would fight for their rights if they thought they were unfairly taken.If the process is corrupted by one group of people against another....and there is no fair process to protect those rights...then you can count on people that will fight for those rights ...Will they lock and load...Its already happened in our history...Could it happen again...it depends how bad it gets!

[Uncle Elvis on 29.09.05 at 12:12]

"You don't need to tell us you are being serious over and over..."

I hate to say it, but, judging from the responses I received... or LACK of responses, I think I do.
I want the people in a position to answer the questions to understand that I'm not being a dick.

[SmokingGun on 29.09.05 at 12:24]

Elvis: Just because there is lack of response doesn't mean people are thinking you are being a weener. I just don't think anyone wants to get involved with postings that could get Bud jacked up...or Wolfie... or....
Terry....or....where the hell's Terry?

[Big Bad Wolf ^..^ on 29.09.05 at 12:28]

Bill too TRUE....The Irish...all the Slavic people....on and on we go on this merry go round of hell....I just have to keep reminding myself that the world is four billion years old and humanity is a blip on the tikker....So I'll hang out with my cats...like Debussey I prefer their company.We didint treat the Irish indentured workers well here either. Interesting fact that many of the worlds greatest structures were built by the Irish...a wonderous people full of magic mystery and green...and like all of us, have a dark nature that can be risen.

[Big Bad Wolf ^..^ on 29.09.05 at 12:32]

Shouldn't Elvis be back in Vegas anyway? I'm 100 percent serious...you know what I mean.

[jake on 29.09.05 at 12:45]

Wolf,

You are not a Pond Dog. To suggest such is simply false and diminishes those who did grow up in that hole without shoes, and basics. Are you claiming you had no shoes? Only John Swan can claim that without being called a liar.

The AME Church does not deserve to be attacked because white people have not joined it. It has welcomed those who have joined, but few have gone the route of becoming part of the leadership structure. It is a falsehood to say that it goes both ways because it has not. They did not discriminate against white people.

The rest of the events worldwide are simply an attempt by you to hide behind the tragedy of the world. Don't. The subject is Bermuda and you have raised the issue of the history of the AME Church in an unwarranted and false attack based, no doubt, on the things you heard growing up.

People who chose to come together to worship and name themselves in such a way that others know they too will be welcome is not wrong. There are churches which target gay people too, stating that they will be welcome and able to worship without persecution.

Are they an attack on your heterosexual lifestyle because they may have few straight ministers?

What I find particularly amazing is that whenever you are called out on your own crap you go into the troubles of the peoples of the world. "We have all suffered," you cry.

It is crap. It has nothing to do with your comment about the AME Church and does not justify it.

As for fighting with arms to right ills - again it is wrong. We have a democracy. Black people used it to win an election and now are charged with the Government.

The PLP played the role of Loyal Opposition for 30 years and saved our country because of it. Even the Government reports post the riots acknowledged that the PLP were trying to calm things, not incite violence. Imagine where we would be if they did the opposite?

When the Governor and the Police Commissioner were killed it was a tragedy for our country, and when investigated it was seen as the acts of two men - not a movement. Even the debate around that suggests external responsibility (IRA?) but not the PLP. We have had more persecution in this country and I am proud of the fact that we did not pursue the option of violence.

Yet in the face of fewer white people in the Civil Service you raise the option of violence.

Still voting PLP, wolf, and the battles in Eritrea or wherever don't mask for me who you really are. You tell me every day.

[Uncle Elvis on 29.09.05 at 12:45]

No, actually, I don't know what you mean, Wolf.
I have no idea whatsoever as to what you are talking about.

[Uncle Elvis on 29.09.05 at 12:59]

Guilden,
Just because I joke doesn't mean I'm not comitted. You're grasping at straws with that one. If you want to chastise me, you're going to have to do better than that. i can be an asshole sometimes. This isn't one of them.

If we're all going to be so dour and sour, what's the point of fighting for a better world? I, for one, don't want to live in a world where we can't laugh, can't play, can't take a straightline when it comes our way.

I wasn't dismissing his point or lessening it in any way. I saw a straightline and ran with it. Hey, I thought it was funny. Sorry you didn't.

As for everything being a joke...

Guilden, humour is an incredibly important tool. It not only makes horrible things a little more palatable and thus easier to get the message out, but also is an amazingly powerful way to keep a message out there, in this day and age of "gnat-like attention spans" (©2¢).
For example, the Looting vs Finding thing in New Orleans. Pictures of white folks are captioned as "Finding", pictures of black folks are captioned as "Looting". If it wasn't for comedians like Carlos Mencia, D.L. Hugely, Jay Leno, David Letterman and the ingenious Jon Stewart finding this totally fucked up and showing this every chance they got, this story would have faded away without so much as a whimper.
So, yeah. Not everything is a joke, but if nothing is a joke, life isn't very fun.

[Bud on 29.09.05 at 13:04]

"I want the people in a position to answer the questions to understand that I'm not being a dick."

Elvis, I for one do not think you are being a Dick. I do however think that many of you are asking questions that insult us, because the answers are right before your eyes. If you are being honest with yourself, then think long and hard about what I posted above:

*****Why is the white community so much wealthier than the black community? Is it purely because the white community is just chock full of geniuses, or is it also because racism is easily perpetuated by racist and or apathetic communities that aren't really interested in correcting the mistakes of the past?"*****

The converse is that race has no impact on our lives today, and the white community has done so well because they are inherently more intelligent, better educated and wiser, than the black community. And when you simply accept that an institution is nothing without the people who run it, it is not that hard to understand that IR exists.

A rhetorical riddle for you. Let's say that someone like Christian Dunleavy had a dead ringer of a brother with the exact same work experience and education. And let's say that the Anti-Dunleavy articulated his anti-position just as vociferously as Dunleavy does. Which person do you think would fare better in corporate Bermuda? Do you think that they would be treated equally?

Black people also fought in the streets in Bermuda and burnt buildings down rubbed out a Govenor and a Chief of Police and an adc and two defenceless Grocers...so you piss off about force...Its been used before and if circumstances are dire they will be used again!If you cannot see how Institutinalized racism has affected all of Bermuda...then I guess your colour blind...Yep I'm a pond dog played for YMSC and was selected unto the under 23 National football team...then went and played for NVCC under the big pile of rubbish....saw rats as big as cats..