The Manipulator

Calvin Smith’s opinion piece in The Royal Gazette on the 18th of October, “Independence fears are derived from ignorance,” is one more attempt to persuade Bermudians that they do not know what they are thinking or why, much as Alex Scott said about the signers of a Referendum petition.

Who does Mr. Smith quote when he declares “so many of our citizens of English descent” regard the idea of independence with “supreme contempt”? It is ridiculous and an outrage that he tries to equate England under attack from Hitler’s Germany, intent on destroying the country, with a model for how Bermudians should value independence today. England was not “losing its independence to Germany,” it was being obliterated! Bermuda is not under physical attack by the UK; the UK does not want to destroy this tiny island or govern it. There are citizens, no doubt, willing to die for their country just the way it is, Mr. Smith.

Mr. Smith seems to find the Americans (international business) “ignorant and strange and irrational” — because they are not for independence. In his mind, their only concern revolves around the Privy Council, as he neglects to mention every other sound reason they have listed.

Each citizen of Bermuda already has “the same right as all other citizens to select the government of his/her choice.” We do not need independence to gain those rights. Bermuda is a country with weak leadership, often poor performance, and not great trust in the current government, with most PLP voters rejecting independence as well — and they are being called ignorant by Mr. Smith because of it. PLP voters can think for themselves; they are not beset by contradictions, Mr. Smith is. They are not beset by propaganda, they have access to facts.

Mr. Smith’s shaky arguments attempt to tie independence to women’s right to vote; the end of segregation in schools and public places; and one man, one vote of equal value (how about making that one person, one vote, Mr. Smith?). We have all these; there is no desire to rescind them. Independence deserves to be discussed on its own merits or failings—the honest approach.

Then he goes on to call on the U.S. to protect us under The Monroe Doctrine, one of the most notorious pieces of imperialism ever conceived! Not only that, he declares the U.S. is sure to come to the island’s aid in times of dangerous internal conflict. Actually, they might be happy to get rid of some tax “loophole” American businessmen. And we do not need to worry that things will get so bad that large numbers of tourists will be in danger, calling the U.S. to their aid. Before we ever get to that point, tourists will not want to come to the island in any case. High prices, poor service, and violence do a very neat job of keeping away people who just want to relax. Mr. Smith’s idea that magically the U.S. will want us as a dependency — but we would have to become independent first to find out — is laughable. Moreover, Bermudians will not want to become a dependency of the U.S. because they would have to pay income taxes.

While Mr. Smith believes this isolated island can always feed itself, he would do well do look back at its history to see numerous times over the centuries when circumstances changed and its people lived near starvation. Mr. Smith looks to international business and tourism as future support — the two sources of income for the island that are increasingly threatened and vulnerable. And while he further assures a young friend that his travel plans will not be disturbed by independence, he fails to mention the incredibly tremendous benefits, way beyond visiting, of having not just a British passport, but one for the E.U. Bermuda needs an escape hatch for its youth to develop, to be able to procure good college educations, and to work abroad for valuable experience. Such passports as the E.U. allow that — far more than conditions in the U.S. at this time.

Independence is not the cure-all Mr. Smith claims, nor is it the ultimate national ideal if it costs us more than we get. Let’s take advantage of our association with the UK and keep getting the most out of it — a situation more to our benefit than theirs in many ways. We are in a strong position, in that we are self-governing, and we have international advantages. We will best create our future by addressing our great weaknesses — crucial issues such as education, housing, crime, etc. It does not make sense to cut short the future of our children through emotional and manipulative reasoning. Mr. Smith fails to see that Bermudians, given the facts, can make a sound decision for themselves.

Comments

[Ethiops on 20.10.05 at 21:53]

England may not have a brightest of a past but; Bermuda won't have a bright future if it goes independent. The premise of promise from America is not enough to go on. My crystal ball tells me we'd be flying an American flag in under 10yrs.
The demise would start with IB pulling out to find greener lands. The in-house fighting over that will kill any hopes of a fast bounce back. Then let’s say the BDA dollar will go on a diet and trim its value. By now police will walk with guns. Tourist will be to shook to bother coming here. The prisons will fill up and we will build new ones and plunge further into shambles like many of the islands or countries that have gone independent.

Then again if we’re smart and do some outrageous things to attract people to the island like gay marriage, legalize weed, open magic mushroom cafés, etc, etc. Maybe then the middle class American would find us a place of worthy of interest.

I’d rather stick with England and actually try to change things at home before pulling the flag down.

[Tim Taylor on 20.10.05 at 22:02]

RE: "PS Elvis - show me a small town with a 3 Billion dollar GNP?"
One tiny point - most countries figure Gross National Product as a figure which includes EXPORTS.

We have none.

Well, we do, but they're mainly Carole Holding prints and Gosling's Black Seal Rum - which although a fine, award-winning product, is not even made locally - it's made from imported rums which are blended and bottled here.

Um, that's pretty much it as far as exports are concerned.

The number you quote is almost entirely derived from offshore business - who could be gone next year if they so choose.

Unless Government can actually bring Tourirsm back on-line (as apposed to merely claiming thay have), we have absolutely no home-grown source of income. None.

Anyone want to buy a Lily field or an Onion patch?

[Sergio on 20.10.05 at 22:05]

Marsha, you may stand corrected with regards to the elected government, and not leader.

But dont forget that when a government is elected, ANY member of that government may become the leader depending on who the elected officials of that organization decide to choose and support as their leader. That's how the party system works, doesn't it? Otherwise we would vote directly for the leader like they do in the U.S.

As for power, this probably isn't the place to debate the term "power", since it is highly debatable. So we can make it simple, if we want to make a decision with regards to our security, foreign affairs and defence, the governor has the last say on it. And if a Bermudian Premier nominates a Chief Justice, the governor can just ignore this recommendation and choose who he feels is better. That's the type of power i'm talking about.

[hotspur on 20.10.05 at 22:08]

Amin, I wasn’t aware that the Governor had these powers. But, realistically, how much of those powers does he exert? Isn’t he, ultimately, an antiquated figure head… nice bloke (probably), lovely plumy hat, opens things, plants trees.

If he were enforcing his powers and trying to influence the running of the country in any way wouldn’t it be a huge issue and wouldn’t the PLP (and all nationalist Bermudians) be up in arms? Wouldn’t everyone know about it?

[Uncle Elvis on 20.10.05 at 22:16]

First... um... a town can't have a gross NATIONAL product.

However, semantics aside, I'm sure there are other small countries or towns with high GNPs. None at hand at the moment and I, quite frankly, think the point is moot, so I'm not going to bother researching for the hours it would take.
I personally believe that the GNP would drop substantiallyif we DID go Independant. Why do I believe this? Well, I believe that we would be far less attractive to International business. Why do I believe this? BECAUSE THEY TOLD US SO!

"Don't talk to me about Democracy."

I obviously CAN'T talk to you about democracy.
If you are Pro-General Election (Not saying you are, but I'm guessing...), and Anti-Referendum, you obviously don't understand what it means. (If you aren't Pro-GE, then I stand corrected.)

"Many anti-Independence folks love to pick and choose their arguments."

How does this apply to what I said?
I don't pick and choose my arguments. I will agree with you when you have something positive about Independence. Funny, though... I haven't seen anything positive about independance.
The National Pride thing is absurd to me. Why can't you be proud to be Bermudian as a colony?
(I'm actually of the Bill Hicks train of thought...
not much to be proud of... I didn't DO anything. My parents just fucked there.)

"Tell me what should I tell my son who wants to be the Govenor of Bermuda? "Well son, we don't have faith in Bermudians to take charge of their own affairs." Sorry........"

You should tell him to go for being Premier!
The Governor ISN'T in charge of our affairs.
If your son wants to be in charge because he wants to do good for his country, the Premiership is a FAR better option.
If he wants to be in charge because of a hunger for power, then... something's gone wrong.

Don't forget that our current Premier isn't an elected official, either...

[Full Fullish on 20.10.05 at 22:28]

Yet another limey -
"Now if Bermuda wanted to change it’s laws to try and entice some of the banking and international business away from the city of London, I doubt the UK would be quite so obliging."

Yes because we have no international businesses here, or HSBC or an office for the Bank of New York for that matter. Um, take a look around you please....

You just proved my point, Britian doesn't do anything to hinder us, so again, I ask you what's so bad about the current relationship?

[Amin Swan on 20.10.05 at 22:40]

RE: "PS Elvis - show me a small town with a 3 Billion dollar GNP?"
One tiny point - most countries figure Gross National Product as a figure which includes EXPORTS.

We have none.

Tim,

I said a small town as Uncle Elvis refered too - not a country.......

hotspur, whether the Govenor choses to use these "powers" or not, they lie in his hands.
And I certainly did'nt vote for him.

[Nicolette on 20.10.05 at 22:56]

Would someone please tell me which of our current Bermudian leaders have provided us with the confidence that they can lead us into independence? Who exactly has a proven track record? Who should we trust with an irrevocable future path and why?

[blovator on 20.10.05 at 22:56]

Calvin may be wrong but he is not a manipulator. He's actually a pretty nice guy. He writes what he believes - he says what he thinks - hes a fun guy to hang out and talk to. He is not particularly interested in changing your mind by stealth and that last op-ed should convince any one of that. On independence, his own son has serious disagreements with him. His son, like his Dad is in full possession of the dignity of his own opinion and will express it gladly and articulately if asked - just like his Dad. Calvin is not the PLP you have to worry about.

Recently he publicly said that marjuana should be decriminalized. Given the bening nature of the drug and the our shameful rate of incarceration for petty drug crimes involving pot, I think he was right. He got raked by the PLP powers that be, for that misdemeanor. They are not interested in sane drug laws. If he was a clever manipulator he would have kept his mouth shut.

[Uncle Elvis on 20.10.05 at 23:04]

I was referring to our size... 21sq miles.

No matter HOW big out GNP, we still won't be taken seriously!

We're a speck to these people. Our politicians will NEVER be taken seriously.

Amin, you're going to have to do better than this if you want to convince us.

[Full Fullish on 20.10.05 at 23:08]

It doesn’t matter –
“There are tons of things wrong with Bermuda, politically and socially. None of those things started with PLP governance. Yet it seems that is the message being pushed on this site.”

Actually the general consensus here is that the PLP haven’t done ANYTHING to rectify the situation, not like they had a lot of time or anything, maybe another 4 years, I guess that would be the 3,960 day plan for tourism instead of the 100 day one we were promised 7 years ago….

“On one hand we have a PLP government that, I agree, lacks some essential leadership skills. On the other hand there's a tyrannical, colonizing oppressor who does almost nothing for us. You are grateful the PLP does not possess my idea of leadership skills. Independence would have been a foregone conclusion. As well as a number of other changes.”

Tyrannical colonizing oppressor?!? And you say you aren’t concerned for what Calvin said, man you two are practically pen pals! You have an interesting (read bipolar disorder) way of understating one of the main problems with the PLP, then going way overboard with the comments about the UK. How are they tyrannical? How are they oppressing us? Back up your ridiculous comments with some facts please.

“I don’t understand the compulsion to remain attached to a country like England. I don’t see Westminster as a model place. I don’t see Britian as having a bright history.”

Um, could it be cause they colonized Bermuda? I’m just guessing though….

“My reasoning has much to do with self-determination. I want 'my' people to run 'my' country. I dont wish to be under any form of subservience, or allegiance, to a place I openly don't like. I am not affected by any argument that Bermuda would falter in its independence. I see most of what has been said against independence as a scare tactic.”

There is nothing wrong with having national pride or wanting self-determination. I fail to see how we aren’t self-determining our future though. When has the UK vetoed anything we have wished to change here? We have so may social ills right now, don’t you think we should get our shit in order before undertaking something as monstrous as independence? Aside from all this, where is the plan? I would rather see Bermuda clean itself and be an example of an independent state, IF that’s the course that everyone wants to go. Personally I don’t see why, when most of the other countries are coming together, EU for example.

“You spew tales of economic horrors which await us in independence. You focus on materialism. And I know why you do. You can't help it. Your base is economic. Everything you see is viewed through money-spectacles”

Yes well welcome to a capitalist society, I believe that China can be found due west from here if you want a more socialist community. Just where did you think all of the stuff we all have came from? Tinker Bell? It’s a rather large step, it’s not been thought out to well, and we have a CRAPLOAD (Ooops there I go again) to loose if it goes horribly wrong. Once we do this, there isn’t any turning back, just want you to realize this.

“There are some in the blue corner who are even more cunning. They say Bermuda has social ills that need fixing before it goes independent. Yet I think those social ills are the result of Western world thinking. A thinking which was largely helped by Great Britian's colonial, dictatorial history.”

Man your rhetoric keeps getting better and better. Actually yes, you’re right, it was GB’s fault that we don’t have enough housing, I’m pretty sure that they also screwed around with the text books so that we have a 47% passing rate in our schools, ooh lets not forget their most diabolical scheme of all, forcing us years ago to drive on the left hand side of the road, thus causing traffic congestion with the tourists, who naturally drive on the right, ergo us having to pay for fast ferries, which causes the general inflation of prices Island wide, causing the issues with crime we currently have. Yup, those bastards!

“Bermuda's divide on this issue is created solely because of the racial demographic here. Let's admit it. Black majority in any independent country cannot be good for those in the blue corner.
Now you'll deny it -- turn on your autopilot responses.
Should you be trusted to prevent my people's progression?"

This I will agree with, there is a racial divide. By blue corner, I assume you mean white people. Take a look at the figures again bub, there are more blacks than whites here, how is it that in ALL of the polls there is an overwhelming response AGAINST independence (Or is this another dastardly UK trick?!?). The numbers speak for themselves. How in the hell is this suddenly “You’re peoples progression”?!? Last time I checked we were all in this together. Oh that’s right “Your” people where already here when the fist settlers arrived, how silly of me.
Next time bring some facts to the table instead of this crap (Dam it, I said it again, it’s just so much fun to say though!)

[JJ on 20.10.05 at 23:09]

Isn't the "my son can't be governor" thing a bit like an average Brit saying "my son can't be King"? Get over it and look at all the much more important roles open to all Bermudians.

[Full Fullish on 20.10.05 at 23:16]

Sergio –

“guess many of us are still not ready to live in a full-blown democracy... always need mummy britain to take care of us.
It's kind of sad that many of you think that our country doesn't have what it takes to run itself (without external control). I mean, if it's that bad, why aren't any of you trying to help run things to make them better”

I’m ignoring the first sentence because that’s just childish, what’s the matter all the other kids go home from the playground?. Maybe some of us are starting to lean towards that way. Maybe some of us are by voting no to independence because they realize there are more important issues at hand.

“Well if it isn't that much control, maybe Britain wouldn't have a problem giving us control over it now would they? I mean, if it's such a miniscule amount of control to us, then surely it's even smaller to a large country like Britain. So why don’t they hand it over.”
Yeah like GB is blocking us at every corner to do this. If you check again, they are letting us decide for ourselves.

” The Governor can still have his house and we can have that little bit of power. And he can have no say in things... just sit there like a good old man and read a book. And we can still have our "dependence" on the Governor, he will just have no power since that's the amount he deserves from our country”
I think you are just pissed off at GB for some reason and are looking at anyway to take a stab at them. Not with my country, Bub.

[Full Fullish on 20.10.05 at 23:27]

Amin Swan –

“The purest form of democracy in not a damn referrendum, it's being Independent.”

Isn’t Cuba independent? I believe that China is as well, North Korea? Yup, those are some really pure forms of democracy.

” Any Government elected in Bermuda will never be looked at seriously by the outside world nor will our Country. We will never have any leaders in the likes of JFK, Churchill, who left legacies un-matched.”

While I do love my Island, I know where her limitations lie. Bermuda is a 21 square mile Island. In the grand scheme of things, you think that suddenly Bermuda being independent will make the UN, EU, NATO or any other International body take notice of us? Man talk about your vision of grandeur.

“The day that a child born in England can have their ambition to be the Govenor of Bermuda realized before my Bermudian child is simply nutts!”

I don’t know of any legislation that would prevent your child, being a British commonwealth citizen and all, from being Governor, I can be wrong on this, please correct me if so. However, what your child can do is become the Premier, which is on the same level as Governor here, if not more so.

In 2015 when everyone is housed, our kids are getting the best education, tourism numbers hit 600,000 per year and the International business is booming, what will be the reasons for not Being Independent?

Well I hope your vision comes true. However in 2015 when everyone is housed in tin shanty town shacks, our kids are getting their education on the street, tourists opt to fly to the artic than here and our version of International Business is selling onions overseas again, don’t get too upset if I say “I told you so!”

Independence at this stage can go either way. Again, where are the facts, where is the plan? We have so much to loose on this. Can’t we just wait at least to get ourselves in order first?

[Full Fullish on 20.10.05 at 23:28]

BW&P -
"Dats right Black Nationalist!!..and while we're at it we can tell those foreigners to not send us imports..we can grow our own food!...and, um um, we don't need no passports cause we don't need to go to foreign countries to have fun...we gots St. David's and when we're independent we won't even need our passports to go there anymore!!"

Hahahhahahahahahha, that was hillarious!

[Jorge on 21.10.05 at 00:12]

There is so much paranoia with this independence issue.
Is being a colony of Great Britain the reason why we have International Companies here or the Tax free status?
What are and what has been the benefits of being a colony? How have we profited from colonization? Example of a colony that was left to basically fend for itself was Monserrat after the Volcano eruption. Are we going to suffer the same fate from Her Majesty should tragedy befall us?
Now to think that Bermudians can't handle their own affairs if we obtain independence is an insult to our intelligence.Even if folks think Alex Scott is not good enough I am sure there are 10 more Bermudians out there capable of doing better.So let us be positive about our ability to run our own affairs. Well , Britain does not really run the affairs here anyway. The Governor is just a symbolic figure anyways.
Now why can't we be independent? Is there a fear that the island will be run over by blacks? Why are some folks mentioning Mugabe etc.?
Yes Mugabe has gone over but that is not and should not be the measuring rod when we have to talk about Black rule. It seems whenever black leadership is mentioned everyone quickly jumps to Mugabe as if to say that is what will happen if we gain independence and let a black man rule. BS my friends.
Now to all those folks, what were you saying when the white ruling government was screwing Rhodesia all over?
So let us flip it and be alarmists, we become independent, white government in power and racism and segregation starts again?
That is not the way and we do not have to make it the way. We are all intelligent enough to run this country and well.
What are the benefits of an EU passport anyway? Does it give the opportunity to free education in England? Europe is not a paradise,folks are struggling there. Look at the poverty in parts of Portugal,Spain, Albania and etc..

[NoVote on 21.10.05 at 00:31]

Just as a point of information: it is true that the Governor is not elected; it is, however, NOT true that a Bermudian cannot become Governor.

All Bermudian's are British subjects and are now entitled to full UK citizenship, if they choose. As such, should the Queen wish to appoint one, it is perfectly possible for a Bermudian to assume the Governorship of Bermuda.

Ironically therefore Bermudians do in some sense have fewer obstacles between them and the highest office in the land than anybody in the UK other than the hereditary heirs to the British throne!

Despite this, I don't think that I've ever heard anyone in Britain describe the place as anything other than a democracy...and an effective and inclusive one at that.

Since Bermuda's system of government is based on the Westminster system and the Governor is the Queen's representative in this system - fulfilling essentially the same role that she does in the UK - I find it difficult to comprehend how a move to independence could be regarded intrinsically as more democratic.

There are numerous countries that have claimed independence from another sovereign nation that are anything but democratic.

I'll mention a few examples below:

- Singapore in 1965 from the Malaysian Federation: now a so-called 'benevolent'dictatorship, in which elections take place periodically but no opposition party is allowed to exist.

- Cuba from Spain in 1898 and from US administration in 1902: need I say more - one of the most infamous dictatorships currently in existence.

- Zimbabwe from the UK in 1980: democratic according to Robert Mugabe, but apparently nobody else........oh, another dictatorship!

Independence has nothing necessarily to do with improving the democratic process.

Indeed, depending upon the system of government and Constitution established, it could have the opposite effect.

Referendum, however, is absolutely the purest form of democracy.

For those of you that think democracy in Bermuda can be enhanced through independence, why don't you let a true democratic process like referendum determine whether the Bermudian public agree with your approach?

Or are you afraid that the democratic process might not be such a good idea, if it doesn't result in getting you what you want?

[Guilden M. Gilbert, Jr. on 21.10.05 at 00:44]

bw&p,

"...another of the crowd of tyrants..."

So are you saying that those of us that have different views from you are tyrants or that those comment relate only to those of us who support Independence for Bermuda are tyrants?

What is it that makes so many afraid of Independence? Aside from an EU passport would somebody mind explaining to me what Great Britain does for Bermuda that Bermuda cannot do for itself?

I have said this time and time again, Bermuda is a Dependent Territory in only three areas:

(1) Internal Security - although this is Britain's responsibility we handle it and pay for it ourselves. As this is Britain's responsiblity why were we given a bill when British troops were deployed during the end of the last riots?

(2) External Affairs - this is another aspect that we tend to handle ourselves except we cannot sign on the dotted line.

(3) External Security - What is there that Bermuda has that any foreign force could possibly want? Do we honestly believe that the US Government, due to Bermuda's geographic position, would sit by and allow a foreign force to invade Bermuda? Let's face it Britain no longer is a super power and it probably couldn't defend itself if it were invaded, let alone come to our rescue.

As far as education, if we are going to be so hindered in our educational endeavours post-independence, why are some of the best Common Law minds, that were trained in Britain, located in foreigner British Territories in the Caribbean? They have no problems whatsoever being able to study and work in Britain and in fact in Continental Europe.

It has been said that with Independence the international business will leave. Where exactly is this business going to go?

International business exist in Bermuda in the manner it does due in part to ease of travel. Most of the Fortune 1000 companies have corporate headquarters on the Eastern Seaboard of the U.S. and with the existing airlifts the executives, for the most part, need only spend one full day out of office for meetings in Bermuda. Therefore, I very much doubt there would be much flight to Ireland our anywhere else "across the pond".

For argument sake, if these companies did decide to leave post-independence they will be looking for domiciles with similar ease of travel, that means they will look to remain in this hemisphere. Now let's look at the options:

(1) Cayman has proven that a major hurricane will shut it down. Instability frightens international business.

(2) BVI cannot accomodate these companies over-night from a physical perspective, neither can the USVI.

(3) Barbados may be an option, oh yeah, but Barbados is independent and currently there is no U.S. Customs and Immigration pre-clearance from Barbados. Therefore, not really ease of travel.

(4) The Bahamas would be a very viable option due to it massive airlifts and extreme ease of travel. It has U.S. Customs and Immigration pe-clearance. But alas, it too is an independent country.

This is why we need not fear the departure of international business. Unless of course there is some truth to something I heard recently, that Florida is looking at ways to offer a tax free nvironemnt to these companies, which means that Bermuda may be threatened with or without independence.

Is it me of has anyone else noticed that all of the IB threats, either verbally or written, to depart an independent Bermuda are coming from Bermudians? Could it be that because these Bermudians oppose independence they are attempting to persuade Bermudians to reject independence through fear of lost jobs?

I truly believe that as long as there is a quality final court of appeal, the legislative environment in Bermuda remains IB friendly, the political and social stability continue IB woudl be perfectly happy in an independent Bermuda.

But independence aside, I am still amazed that so many in Bermuda truly believe and state that Bermuda is the envy of the world when, according to them the slightest hiccup would cause instant financial ruin to the country due to its sole dependence on IB. I don't consider that to be a very enviable position at all but maybe that's just me.

[smith on 21.10.05 at 07:16]

Amin Swan: "And I certainly did'nt vote for him"

Did you vote for Alex or jennifer?

[Full Fullish on 21.10.05 at 07:50]

Nicolette -
"Would someone please tell me which of our current Bermudian leaders have provided us with the confidence that they can lead us into independence? Who exactly has a proven track record? Who should we trust with an irrevocable future path and why?"

Well I'm drawing a blank.....

[Marsha on 21.10.05 at 08:49]

It Doesn't Matter says: "In the blue corner there sits most on this site. You spew tales of economic horrors which await us in independence. You focus on materialism. And I know why you do. You can't help it. Your base is economic. Everything you see is viewed through money-spectacles."

There is a lot of materialism in Bermuda (want and greed rather than need), but that's not the focus in these threads--the focus is JOBS. You say "your base is economic," and I say "economics is basic."

Without a sound, fully-functioning economy this island would be one crying dead place. Freedom/independence exists in various ways in a society, such as the opportunity and ability to work at a meaningful job that supports you and your family. Right now IB brings in most of the money, and tourism brings a lesser amount. The reality is that we don’t have a lock on IB, which demands certain safeguards, and tourism continues its decline.

Freedom/independence is raising kids with excellent educations, who will have choices in life, including well-paying jobs.

Freedom/independence is being able to walk in your neighborhood without fearing bodily harm.

Freedom/independence is being able afford even a very modest home.

Freedom/independence is giving back and seeing that those who are less fortunate and struggle in life are helped to move towards productivity and more stable situations.

Freedom/independence is not having the second highest incarceration rate in the world, where government warehouses large numbers of young men.

Why hasn’t the current government given us more of the freedom and independence we really need?

[Uncle Elvis on 21.10.05 at 09:39]

Guilden, other than the overreaction at the beginning (Judging from the bit that followed, I think bw&p was referring not to those that support Independence, but those that are trying to force it down our throats with lies and deception), that was a great letter.

Well thought out, well presented... thank you.
As always, you raise the tone.

Just a couple of things.

First, I had a smile at "the slightest hiccup".
Me, I don't think Nationhood is "the slightest hiccup". I think it would probably be one of the biggest and most important events in Bermuda's history.

While I did kinda dig where your coming from, I'm not convinced. I think that most people opposed to Independance are worried about the POSSIBILITY of these things happening. We're not... at least I'm not saying that they would happen, just that they could happen. That possibility doesn't exist now, but would if we did go Independant. Do you see what I mean?
This is why we ask what the benefits are. We don't want to rock the boat if we don't have to, and certainly don't want to rock it if it's not worth it.

[Trinity on 21.10.05 at 09:50]

Guilden,

You naively conclude that airlift and proximity are the reasons why Bermuda has a purported unbreakable hold on International Business (IB). You assume such hold will continue even if Bermuda becomes independent. My friend, yours is a pipe dream. Please do not fool yourself into believing this; it is not based upon fact or in reality.

Yes, Bermuda does provide IB with certain benefits which are not available to them in the US or the UK, and that, combined with Bermuda’s stability and status as a British Overseas Territory, is why they stay. However, basing a business in Bermuda also comes with a host of challenges and costs. Clearly such challenges are not insurmountable, but they do exist nonetheless. In other words, Bermuda is not a perfect place to base one’s business, and we Bermudians should not fool ourselves into believing that it is. Doing so would be arrogant and, in my view, a misguided mistake.

If you lived here, I would venture to guess that you, too, would likely be employed by an IB (whether directly as an employee of an IB or indirectly as an external service provider to an IB). But lest we forget, employment is not the only way in which we benefit from IB. One should not underestimate the contribution that IB makes to our Island in the form of donations to charities, sponsorship of cultural and sporting events, and the list goes on.

What we all must try to remember is that, like a marriage, Bermuda's relationship with IB is a partnership and both partners need to be happy and willing to continue with the relationship in order for it to flourish and grow. Having ones’ IB based in a country where the so-called leaders consistently demonstrate an inability to lead (not to mention display signs of racism and dishonesty directed at those they have been elected to govern – hell, they can’t even be honest with their fellow party members “we had to deceive you” etc.) is disconcerting enough, but at least under the current scenario IB (and Bermudians) can take some comfort in the hope that Britain would not permit our ‘leaders’ to stray too far off the straight and narrow. Contrast this with the scenario under an independent Bermuda – I would hazard to guess that it wouldn’t be long before the ‘rule of law’ disappeared completely. Would you want your Billion dollar organisation based in a jurisdiction which was devoid of the ‘rule of law’? I’d need more than airlift and proximity to the US to convince me to stay.

At the end of the day, IB doesn’t have to put up with such uncertainty and my guess is that they won’t. They will be gone so fast it will make your head spin, but then again – what do you care? You don’t even live here!!!

[No Vote on 21.10.05 at 09:51]

Jorge,

I refer to your questions "Is being a colony of Great Britain the reason why we have International Companies here or the Tax free status?"

The answer, my friend, is that BOTH are reasons why the international business sector has developed in Bermuda.

There are of course other reasons such as location, language and now that the jurisdiction has developed its infrastructure and the availability of appropriately skilled people - both Bermudian and otherwise.

However, one of the most fundamental reason why tens of billions of dollars are entrusted to Bermuda is its political stability and the rule of law.

This key characteristic is under-pinned by Bermuda's association with Britain, and from the perspective of those that place there capital here (and on this particular point only their opinions on the validity of this view is important)it is important.

Discussions about independence by politicians that are demonstrably incompetent simply creates uncertainty and makes Bermuda a more risky place to hold capital, as there is no guarantee that the current political stability and robust legal system will prevail post-independence.

The owners of international companies tend not to be attracted to jurisdictions where such risks exist.

Whilst it would not be impossible to maintain political stability and a robust legal system post-independence, the cost of the uncertainty created during such a transition might not be worth it.

If I were the government I would ask the people of Bermuda what they think on this subject: perhaps a referendum would be a good way to get this kind of feedback.

[Yet Another Limey on 21.10.05 at 09:56]

Full Fullish -
… fast ferries, which causes the general inflation of prices Island wide, causing the issues with crime we currently have.

Damn that Ewart Brown for making my ride to work nicer.

In general I think there is still too much anti PLP rhetoric on this site. Sure in the time they’ve had in government they haven’t managed to turn Bermuda into a paradise where everyone is a home owning millionaire, but then again they haven’t destroyed the island either, in face I’d say it’s a little bit better than when they first got in. I doubt independence (under either party) would bring the world crashing down around our ears either.

[Guilden M. Gilbert, Jr. on 21.10.05 at 09:58]

Nicolette,

"Would someone please tell me which of our current Bermudian leaders have provided us with the confidence that they can lead us into independence? Who exactly has a proven track record? Who should we trust with an irrevocable future path and why?"

So tell me, if things are as bad as some of you claim they are why hasn't Britain stepped in. What are these safety measures you believe you have by being a Dependent Territory? Do you realy believe that Britain is going to step in and get involved in how Bermuda is run? Britain could careless whether Bermuda succeeds or fails. Besides, Bermuda isa self-governing territory and aside from the three areas I mentioned previously Britain has no say over Bermuda.

If as some of you claim, Alex is a dictator (which could only happen if he were able to gain control of the military and police force to use for his own purposes), as long as he has support from the majority of the House of Parliament, the Governor can do nothing to prevent Alex or any other Premier from doing what he wants to do internally. So where is your comfort level in Britain?

Going back to this passport issue, I truly believe that the reality is that the majority population in Bermuda has no desire to live and work in Europe. Many complain about racism in Bermuda, why are they going to leave their own country and face racism in a foreign country? Has anyone seen how black footballers are treated by the Spanish, as an example? Blacks are still treated very much as an underclass throughout Europe.

This passport issue is really an issue only seen as a benefit by the white population. The white population see this as a way out if things go bad in Bermuda.

Let's take the extreme view for a second. If things happened to go extremely bad in Bermuda and many whites did opt to take advantage of the passport thing and left, what are they going to do when the remaining black population decides to accept the road to independence? After all with independence brings about the revocation of the passport, which means that all those who left Bermuda will have to return.

So wouldn't it be better to make certain that we all work together to ensure Bermuda's continued success? Independence does not have to be as devisive as some try to make to it out to be.

[bw&p?? on 21.10.05 at 10:01]

Guilden,
I label the PLP and those who blindly support them as tyrants because of the lies, arrogance, lack of respect, and theivery they continuously flaunt in their governance of this island.
You tend to offhandedly dismiss the passport issue but lets put this in context for a minute:
Presently I have the right, the FREEDOM, to leave this island, my island, of my own free will and go to not less than 25 different countries and cultures to live and work FREELY!! Anyone who supports taking away my freedoms and those of my generations will be labeled as a tyrant - you must understand that. And don't give me some argument like "Bermudians go off to work in the UK and Europe all the time"...tell me one the has obtained a work permit to be a truck driver in Poland, for example.

[Marsha Wiggins on 21.10.05 at 10:23]

Guilden, it’s interesting to me that you and others accuse many of “fear” of independence. I am not afraid of independence per se. I am analytical and pragmatic; give me all the facts, and I’ll decide from there. It’s not independence I’m afraid of, it’s de-stabilizing the island’s current economic and legal infrastructure, the ongoing slide of tourism, the lack of any meaningful progress on essential social needs in the community (education, crime, housing), the threat to freedom of speech from the Premier, the secrecy and lack of transparency of current PLP leaders, and poor management. You accuse others of seeing Alex Scott as a dictator, but what we are seeing is his desire to take control of just what you wrote dictators want to take control of, plus more: the police, the independent auditor, the military, etc., in an ongoing atmosphere of secrecy, manipulation, incompetence, and contempt.

The issue is not even “what Great Britain does for Bermuda that Bermuda cannot do for itself.” Bermuda is showing that it cannot do well for itself right now, with no interference from Great Britain. And I do believe it folly to reject the opportunities provided by passports from GB and the EU. Look at tightened security and immigration restrictions in the U.S. alone because of terrorism. Other countries are becoming more selective too. This is NOT a white issue, it is about avenues of opportunity for all Bermudians. My dream is to not see kids sitting on walls, but to know they're out in the world getting educated and having work experience that they can bring back to Bermuda.

How is Bermuda to handle internal security in an overwhelming situation? Calvin Smith suggests the U.S. will come to our aid. I think they’d take some tourists out, but they’re not going to occupy Bermuda and dive into a messy local situation. We're better off paying for help if we ever need it.

As you say, we already “tend to handle external affairs ourselves,” so that’s not a big issue. Do we honestly need the pomp and circumstance though? Can’t we do with efficiency instead of gargantuan ego trips? And, once again, let’s hope the U.S. will defend Bermuda in its own interest.

International business needs certain safeguards, such as the familiar and respected Westminster legal system, the Privy Council, a safe environment for their employees, a good standard of living. A prominent PLP member has already undermined the idea of the Privy Council being continued; safety and quality of life are becoming bigger issues. You write, “I truly believe that as long as…the political and social stability continue,” IB will stay in an independent Bermuda. Well, I would say that those are the two things that are suffering in Bermuda right now, and getting sicker: political and social stability.

[Guilden M. Gilbert, Jr. on 21.10.05 at 10:24]

bw&p,

So your aspirations are to be a truck driver in Poland? Nice to see that you aim so high.

Its very interesting that you only respond to my tyranny comments. Have you nothing to offer on my comments about the lack of options that are available to the international business sector? Or could it be that you have no rebuttal to those comments? Could be that you actually agree with me on them?

[Big Bad Wolf ^..^ on 21.10.05 at 10:26]

Guilden there are plenty of young black professionals that would like to work and live in the UK or other parts of Europe.Just because your stuck in the Bahamas don't think other Bermudians both Black and White want to limit their choices.I am quite certain that even a few of the PLP cabinet have their EU passports.So I really dont think Bermudians want to be chained to only the rock!

[Full Fullish on 21.10.05 at 10:28]

Yet another Limey -
"Damn that Ewart Brown for making my ride to work nicer."

Heh, yes there is alot of anti PLP rhetoric on this site. I would love it to be more diversified, just remember though, the PLP is the current Government, and as such they are wide open targets for all sorts of criticism. I have no agenda against the PLP, I just want them to run this country properly, that's all.

No one said we should all be home owning millionaires, however, it would be nice for everyone to have the option of being homeowners one day.

The PLP haven't destroyed this Island, they have maintained the status quo. When they do screw up, they usually duck the responsibility or come up with "Yeah well the UBP were doing it for years". Cause almost none of the issues have been tackled progressively (Remember this is the first word in their parties name), issues have tended to get worse.

I don't think either government has what it takes to independence right now. Maybe down the road, ok, but man we've got alot of work to do before then. At the very least, we need our people unified and crime and education tackled first, surely you must realise this.

I'm going to be as open as possible on this, as I have attempted to be. I want you to tell me what exactly Bermuda will gain (No national pride garbage either, I have that in abundance, I'm VERY proud to be Bermudian, independence will not change this for me either postively or negatively). No maybe's no what if's, give me something tangeable that will make me consider it. Convince me...

[Guilden M. Gilbert, Jr. on 21.10.05 at 10:39]

Trinity,

"...take some comfort in the hope that Britain would not permit our ‘leaders’ to stray too far off the straight and narrow."

Please advise what actions you believe the UK will take. Bermuda is a self-governing country and Britain has no control over its internal affairs. Even if the government of the day effects internal legislative changes to specifically cause IB to leave there is nothing that Britain can do as it has no say in our internal affairs. Again, I ask where is this safety net you speak of.

Bermuda is not a success because it is a territory, it is a success because of the legislative environment (including income tax-free), political, social and economic stability and because of its proximity to the U.S. Eastern Seaboard.

If I were in Bermuda you are probably correct that I would be in the IB environment, as I was before I left but I wouldn't be living my life worrying about IB leaving because of independence because I am comfortable in knowing that we understand the importance of IB and we will make certain that the environment for them would not be changed.

[silencedogood on 21.10.05 at 10:43]

“in regards to the method that he is proposing, are you saying that it is going to somehow change the balance in favour or against independence? if you think this is the case, explain your logic.” Posted by Sergio on 20.10.05 at 14:14

Sergio, I’m saying he thinks it will. The Premiere seems to feel that the PLP will get elected no matter what so a general election to decide independence is ideal for those who support it. Because they know Independence will be rejected at referendum but that a general election is not possible, the next best thing is to tie a referendum to the general election.

I’m no mind reader, but it would seem his logic is that 1) more PLP supporters are in favor of independence than other Bermudians, 2) more PLP supporters will turnout to vote for a general election than for referendum alone, 3) linking the issues may result in more pro-independence votes. I’m no PLP historian, but everything I’ve heard tells me that they play the race card with a vengeance before elections and have made no secret of their attempts to link independence with racial freedom during this whole process. I don’t know if this will work or not, but that’s what I think he is trying to do.

[silencedogood on 21.10.05 at 10:45]

“In the blue corner there sits most on this site. You spew tales of economic horrors which await us in independence. You focus on materialism. And I know why you do. You can't help it. Your base is economic. Everything you see is viewed through money-spectacles.” Posted by It Doesn't Matter on 20.10.05 at 16:30

BS. You remind me of the South Park episode where the hippies converge on the town and explain how it would be cool to have people exchange goods and services with each other. Stan says, “That’s a town,” to which the hippie replies, “You just haven’t been to college!”

Try going to some of the other islands with crap economies where kids get terrible medical care, people live in shacks worse than my landlord’s tool shed and they have to drive a cab 22 hours a day catching cat naps in between fares just to feed their families.

You were typing this on a computer right, not an abacus. Well, you can thank the materialistic bastards at Apple and Microsoft for producing that just so they could make billions. Too bad their evil scheme failed allowing for greater productivity in the workplace, greater convenience across the board (which includes our access to travel and products here in bermuda), and allows you to regurgitate the discredited philosophy of socialism.

You also said…“There are some in the blue corner who are even more cunning. They say Bermuda has social ills that need fixing before it goes independent. Yet I think those social ills are the result of Western world thinking. A thinking which was largely helped by Great Britian's colonial, dictatorial history.”

First off, I’m not British, but they get entirely too much crap for their past wrongs. Every other country in exisistence was trying to do the same thing, but were just less successful. The Spanish, French, Portuguese and Germans all had colonial empires at the time. Go back further and to other parts of the world—the romans, Persians, arabs, Chinese, Mongols, etc., etc. all had empires and usually treated them in a shoddy manner. Second, even if Bermuda was a paradise of virtue independence would probably be a bad idea. It is a pain in the butt to do business here and costs a lot more than other places. IB exists because of the coincidence of unique factors. The amount of new business coming to the island is little to none meaning that if our existing companies leave, that’s it. We missed out on a lot of opportunities in IB by being expensive and inflexible which were capitalized by Cayman and BVI. We tinker with these at our peril.

[silencedogood on 21.10.05 at 10:46]

“But the point is that the democratically elected leader does not possess the highest power in the land. That power belongs to someone who has been elected by the people.” I think Sergio posted this.

Not everyone in a system has to be elected for a government to be democratic. Indeed, it’s probably not a good idea for that to occur, because the majority can trample on the minority. In almost every system the executive branch of government can appoint individuals to places of authority. This usually applies to judges who, like the governor, have limited powers and can only exercise them at certain times, and tend to do so conservatively.

[silencedogood on 21.10.05 at 10:47]

Ethiops—great post. I couldn’t have said it better.

[Guilden M. Gilbert, Jr. on 21.10.05 at 10:52]

Marsha,

"Well, I would say that those are the two things that are suffering in Bermuda right now, and getting sicker: political and social stability."

Even if these got out of control, what is Britain going to do? What can Britain do, they have no control over our internal affairs?

"You accuse others of seeing Alex Scott as a dictator, but what we are seeing is his desire to take control of just what you wrote dictators want to take control of, plus more: the police, the independent auditor, the military, etc..."

Again, what is Britain going to do, they have no control over our internal affairs?

"International business needs certain safeguards, such as the familiar and respected Westminster legal system, the Privy Council, a safe environment for their employees, a good standard of living. A prominent PLP member has already undermined the idea of the Privy Council..."

So because one prominent PLP member speaks this it means it will happen? Please.

The fact is, most former colonies have retained the Westminster system and have also retained the Privy Council.

[Full Fullish on 21.10.05 at 11:00]

Guilden -
First off, let me also say that I also enjoy your arguments, you are one of the few who post more intellegent rebuttals here, and you usually back them up with legitimate facts or expamples.

"So tell me, if things are as bad as some of you claim they are why hasn't Britain stepped in. What are these safety measures you believe you have by being a Dependent Territory? Do you realy believe that Britain is going to step in and get involved in how Bermuda is run? Britain could careless whether Bermuda succeeds or fails. Besides, Bermuda isa self-governing territory and aside from the three areas I mentioned previously Britain has no say over Bermuda."

Ok, first off you say that Britain does nothing for us, and then you rely on the fact that the US will help us out if we get into trouble. You can't have it both ways. Ok so by this scneario, Bermuda start rioting, things are pretty bleak, we have gone independent, and we HOPE that the US intervienes??? Even though the UK gave us a bill for the last riots (Hey you pay what you owe, we do pretty much get a free pass over to the UK and beyond, and we don't contribute anything towards the UK cause of such), it's nice to have the option. I know I for one would hate to see Gosling's set on fire again!!! ;)

"If as some of you claim, Alex is a dictator (which could only happen if he were able to gain control of the military and police force to use for his own purposes), as long as he has support from the majority of the House of Parliament, the Governor can do nothing to prevent Alex or any other Premier from doing what he wants to do internally. So where is your comfort level in Britain?"

Our comfort level is in that we already have freedom to choose our own path without intervention from the "mother land". You just provided support against arguments of "Tyranical Oppressor arguments" actually.

"Going back to this passport issue, I truly believe that the reality is that the majority population in Bermuda has no desire to live and work in Europe. Many complain about racism in Bermuda, why are they going to leave their own country and face racism in a foreign country? Has anyone seen how black footballers are treated by the Spanish, as an example? Blacks are still treated very much as an underclass throughout Europe."

Granted, most Bermudians will still wish to live and work here, however I want that option open for me and my children. Bermuda is a beautiful place to live, but it's not the end all and be all, so much can be learned by other cultures, surely providing us with as many options, to choose to live abroad, to choose to live here is a win/win situation for all. Racism is everywhere, as unfortunante as that is. It's in the Carribean, the US, Europe, Asia and Africa as well. It's not always whites against blacks either. Moving anywhere new is an uphill battle, yes racism makes it worse. Not all of Europe is like this though.

"This passport issue is really an issue only seen as a benefit by the white population. The white population see this as a way out if things go bad in Bermuda. "

Actually a lot of my black friends have also said the same thing if things go horribly wrong. This in itself it a sterotypical, generalistic comment that is usually beneath your standard of argument. I can only respond with, wouldn't it be an option for everyone who had one?

"Let's take the extreme view for a second. If things happened to go extremely bad in Bermuda and many whites did opt to take advantage of the passport thing and left, what are they going to do when the remaining black population decides to accept the road to independence? After all with independence brings about the revocation of the passport, which means that all those who left Bermuda will have to return."

Yes lets all go to hell in the same handbasket is what you really mean by this statement...

[Guilden M. Gilbert, Jr. on 21.10.05 at 11:15]

Wolf,

"...there are plenty of young black professionals that would like to work and live in the UK or other parts of Europe."

So why aren't they working and living in the UK and Europe? What is your definition of plenty? Do the majority of young black professionals feel this way?

With regard to my living in the Bahamas, I am definitely not stuck. It is a choice just as your living in Bermuda instead of the UK or Europe is a choice.

[bw&p?? on 21.10.05 at 11:18]

Guilden,
Post public secondary school I worked in a local trade and saved my money for 12 years so that I could afford to attend university. Subsequently I earned a first class honours Bachelor degree and a Master of Science degree in engineering - I aim high and usually acheive what I aim for, thank you. My comment on being a truck driver was to illustrate that even the basic freedoms will be taken away in the blind quest for independence. It was also to negate your arguement that Bermudians already work freely in the UK and Europe, which I have done post university but on a professional level and with alot of red tape in regards to obtaining a work permit (prior to acquiring a UK passport). I have children and will support them should they want to be a truck driver in Poland or an automotive engineer in Italy - but more importantly I want them to have the options. Pro Independence tyrants want to strip them of that freedom and I will not stand idly by without fighting for them.
As for my absent comments about your remarks in regards to the international business sector, my wife Trinity addressed those issues - and your silence on the points she raised, along with those brought forth by Marsha, have also been noted.

[Yet Another Limey on 21.10.05 at 11:21]

I must admit the only real reason (apart from pride) I can think of for Bermuda to become independent is to become more flexible to the needs of international business. We can allow them to invent new types of insurance product to sell to the world that they wouldn’t be allowed to do in other jurisdictions.

Bermuda would be walking a fine line between being viewed as a bad tax haven and a great place to do business. But under the right leadership (and I know most people on this site don’t think we have that at the moment) Bermuda could become a vastly more wealthy nation.

FF - “I don't think either government has what it takes to independence right now.”

George Washington once said ‘the only way to make a man trustworthy is to trust him’, In our case could the only way to make a government accountable is to remove the crutch of British dependence?

[Ethiops on 21.10.05 at 11:24]

Guilden writes - "I truly believe that the reality is that the majority population in Bermuda has no desire to live and work in Europe. Many complain about racism in Bermuda, why are they going to leave their own country and face racism in a foreign country? Has anyone seen how black footballers are treated by the Spanish, as an example? Blacks are still treated very much as an underclass throughout Europe".

Can we really speak for others I’m not sure? I'd think if a post went in the gazette letting locals know by law you could grow 15 weed plants in your house for private use some would relocate to Spain regardless of racism issues. Locals are already used to racism and not everyone is a footballer for instance in the music business they treat people wonderful.

Take my passport from me and you clip my wings.

Who can tell me the reasons we should go independent all I’ve heard is some garbage about national pride. Utter rubbish, if you don't already have a sense pride why would a change of flags bring it? I don't get it.

Why trouble still waters ?
It would seem we have some real issues of people with no clue of the global picture thinking that they know something. I'll tell you this IB is a fragile eco system.

So far I’ve not heard one good point supporting independence not even one. So what if we can run ourselves. Any person, place, or thing can run its affairs. This shouldn't be the issue, the question is should we. Take into consideration that we're a tiny island 100% dependant on imported goods, we export nothing not even drugs. One should arrive to the idea that co-existence with another country ain't that bad of an idea.

One doesn't have to be a rocket scientist to see that independence is a bad idea esp. for Bermuda and those that support it either have money and live elsewhere or have plans to gain control when the switch over takes place. I may be off the mark there but, maybe I'm on point.

The greater good of independence however has yet to be announced. I've read it all and have yet to find one shred of anything that looks positive on this issue.

There is so much work to do while still under the guise of our relationship with England. A person paints his house and fixes it up to make it look sharp before putting it on the market. While still flying the British flag, we need to give Bermuda a complete make-over.

IMO independence is for cowards that don't trust the democratic process. I can't believe a few apparently not very clever people want to put the rest of the island folk in jeopardy because of their personal desires.

[Uncle Elvis on 21.10.05 at 11:38]

"This passport issue is really an issue only seen as a benefit by the white population."

Regardless of the truth in this, and I understand where you're coming from with regard to the racism in Europe, WHY is being a benefit for the white population a negative thing?
Why is it bad? Just because it's mainly whites that see it?
C'mon, you GOTTA admit that having access to live, work and be educated in another country, ANY other country, is a benefit. Don't you? Maybe not. I dunno. It just seems logical to me that the more doors open to you, the more options you have.

[bw&p?? on 21.10.05 at 11:41]

Guilden,
My previous post went in before you repsonded to Trinity - well done, but sadly it's a weak response and will be dealt with accordingly - But here's my 2 cents
you say "I am comfortable in knowing that we understand the importance of IB and we will make certain that the environment for them would not be changed" - I missed the point at which you became an ellected official - a law maker!!
You make the mistake of thinking that the IB, like many Bermudians, has any faith in the current government. Trust me when I tell you that they do not, and that flight plans are well in place, being updated and revised on a daily basis. No worries for you is it?

[Trinity on 21.10.05 at 11:55]

Yet Another Limey - 'I must admit the only real reason (apart from pride) I can think of for Bermuda to become independent is to become more flexible to the needs of international business. We can allow them to invent new types of insurance product to sell to the world that they wouldn’t be allowed to do in other jurisdictions.'

IB is here and inventing the products you allude to now. What does independence have to do with novel new insurance products?

If the OECD, FATF etc. wish to shut us 'harmful tax jurisdictions' (their terminology) down they will have a much easier time doing so if we are an independent nation. Afterall, what is it that their member nations need from us? Absolutely nothing! We have absolutely no bargaining power on the world stage. If they wanted to shut Bermuda down as an IB center it could be done with the stroke of a pen (their pen). However, so long as we are a British colony and a friend of the US, such organisations will be mindful of the impact that actions against us could have on their relationship with Britain, and think twice before trying to kill Bermuda's only viable industry (IB).

[Uncle Elvis on 21.10.05 at 11:59]

"In our case could the only way to make a government accountable is to remove the crutch of British dependence?"

BWAH HA HA HAAAAAA....

Stop it.. you're killing me.
My ribs hurt.
You're unbelievable.

[Marsha on 21.10.05 at 11:59]

Guilden, Yes, as you wrote, Bermuda has been a success because of the legislative environment, political, social, and economic stability, as well as proximity to the eastern U.S. But many of those are the very things that are coming into question under this PLP government, which doesn’t have to legislate anything unfavorable to IB, they can just let the above deteriorate further and that will do the trick. I guess GB can’t do much about it, but with the style of government we are now being subjected to, it is clear that basic democratic safeguards are at risk, and that is a serious concern in considering independence. Just the threat of constraining freedom of speech alone would do it for me. We do have some advantages to a relationship with GB (previously listed), and those include the appointment of independents in certain positions, which I do not trust the current government to take over.

Yet Another Limey, “George Washington once said ‘the only way to make a man trustworthy is to trust him.’” Do you honestly think he would trust Alex Scott? There are people I know whom I would feel comfortable trusting, and others I wouldn’t—based on their words and actions. Scott has a trust problem.

[JJ on 21.10.05 at 12:33]

Guilden,

Even the BIC admitted that losing EU passports would be a problem.

Also, question, you presumably have contacts in IB in Bermuda. What are they telling you about their concerns/intentions should Bermuda become independent? Do they agree with you?

[Full Fullish on 21.10.05 at 12:45]

Yet another Limey -
"George Washington once said ‘the only way to make a man trustworthy is to trust him’, In our case could the only way to make a government accountable is to remove the crutch of British dependence?"

As we're all in the habbit of quoting, here's another one for you.

"Fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice shame on me"

I really do not hold any faith in the current government. May be in a few years, like another 10 if they can make some honest changes, sure. Don't forget we told the UBP to stuff it with the independence idea 10 years ago too....

What British Crutch?!? Oh you think that independence will suddenly make the currrent government accountable, exactly how so? Independence will give them more power, this much is undeniable. Look at how drunk they have gotten on what they currently have!
Here's another one for you,
"Power corrupts, absolute power currupts absolutely"..... Still not giving me any facts here, we can go on with rhetoric and opinion all day, you are NOT convincing me here....

[SmokingGun on 21.10.05 at 12:55]

"Now to think that Bermudians can't handle their own affairs if we obtain independence is an insult to our intelligence."

I'm neither offended or insulted because the truth is at this moment we cannot seem to handle our own affairs. Blame it on the PLP or the UBP it doesn't matter. It's simply that with all that's going on in Bermuda and the rest of the world this is just not the time to go independent.

I personally have no problem with people wishing for independence and eventually I think I would like to see it happen but only when the clear majority of our people feel confident in our leaders, plans, our future and fully understand the responsibilities and costs for our future generations.

Until then have a vote. Just as long as it's one issue, one person, one vote. Any other format is an insult to our intelligence.