Open mike: Bermuda and the Caribbean

Another chance to talk about a topic of your choice.

First comment sets the subject for debate. If you ask a question, be sure to provide your own thoughts too, even if it's in a subsequent comment.

» Tiger Bay says: "The PLP public position is that Bermuda will be an associate member of Caricom and no more. However, leading lights in the PLP indicate otherwise.

First, Dame Lois goes on the record saying that Bermuda should drop the Privy Council for the Carribean Court of Justice.

Then Dr. Ewart says last week at a Caribbean conference that "I think there is a role for Bermuda in the [Caribbean] Single Market and Economy but it is yet to be figured out."

What do you think of Dr. Brown's CSME comment? What do you think about the PLP leadership's habit of unveiling potentially unpopular policy statements OVERSEAS before any consultation with the Bermuda public?"

Comments

[Tiger Bay on 23.11.05 at 08:10]

The PLP public position is that Bermuda will be an associate member of Caricom and no more. However, leading lights in the PLP indicate otherwise.

First, Dame Lois goes on the record saying that Bermuda should drop the Privy Council for the Carribean Court of Justice.

Then Dr. Ewart says last week at a Caribbean conference that "I think there is a role for Bermuda in the [Caribbean] Single Market and Economy but it is yet to be figured out."

This is far off the script and very worrying to Bermuda, as participating in any way in the CSME would run counter to Bermudians' clearly expressed desires and economic interests.

Some of the main features of the CSME are below. You decide:

1. Free movement of goods and services (eliminating all barriers to intra-regional movement);

2. Right of establishment of CARICOM owned businesses in any Member State without restrictions;

3. Common import duties for all CSME members and sharing of collected customs revenues;

4. Free movement of capital (leading to a common currency);

5. A common trade policy;

6. Free movement of labour between Member States;

7. Harmonisation of laws, including company, intellectual property and other laws;

8. Common economic and monetary policy management;

9. Coordinated fiscal policy measures including coordinating indirect taxes and national budget deficits.

What do you think of Dr. Brown's CSME comment? What do you think about the PLP leadership's habit of unveiling potentially unpopular policy statements OVERSEAS before any consultation with the Bermuda public?

[Tiger Bay on 23.11.05 at 08:14]

I, for one, am disappointed that the local media has not made any effort to analyse what CSME participation would entail for Bermuda - or even to follow up with the PLP leadership on this far reaching statement. They simply regurgitated the quotes from the Carib World Radio website.

Instead we are treated to daily insignificant media statements by Alex Scott trying to flood the media with "good news".

[NoVote on 23.11.05 at 08:24]

If the PLP are serious about this, then I find it considerably more disturbing than the prospect of having Independence forced down our throats.

However, I really can't see any government retaining power or being re-elected if it tried to enact the list of actions proposed above, as so many of them are contrary to the protectionism engrained in Bermuda's successful economic system.

It strikes me that this is more about political posturing than anything else.

[Big Bad Wolf ^..^ on 23.11.05 at 08:31]

Lets cut Bermuda in half..those in the West can be a member of Caricom and those in the East can be members of the EU. On a serious note those Bermudians with West Indian decent obviously wont a closer link in the same manner that those with a European link want the EU.Bermuda's best interest in the close future is to remain an associate member of CARICOM and continue to offer all Bermudians who want it direct access to the EU.Maybe the PLP leadership wants Independence so that we can become full members of Caricom but so far most Bermudians do not waqnt Independence. So far Bermuda as a colony can have its cake and eat it too,by having access to the EU without inward immigration.With globalization we have to pick and choose carefully if want to have any domestic control over our Bermudian lives.

[sandgrown on 23.11.05 at 09:04]

BBW - correct correct correct. It's one thing to have closer cultural ties, who wouldn't, but at what cost? It's breathtaking how arrogant the PLP leadership behave, with this issue and independence. A letter in today's Gazette suggests it's purely ego, a "who's in charge now" mentality and to hell with everyone else, regardless of the outcome.

[silencedogood on 23.11.05 at 09:22]

Why is the PLP so obsessed with making Bermuda more like the caribbean? I haven't been to every island, but I've been to enough to know that:
1) the caribbean economic position is generally crappy,
2) the governments tend to be corrupt,
3) the education systems tend to be low quality or they fail to educate a majority of the population,
4) social problems are rampant (crime, prostitution, drugs).

Clearly the PLP has been taking notes on how to achieve these goals, but what's the point? I'll admit the caribbean culture has appeal, but so does mexico and I don't want to live in a country like that. Is Jamaica so superior to Bermuda so that we need to be more like them?

Its frustrating--its like they want to trade in their bently for a dodge dart just because it has ground effects.

[Guilden M. Gilbert, Jr. on 23.11.05 at 09:25]

Tiger,

I think you are over-reacting. There has never been a statement by the PLP or any of its memebers that Bermuda should be more than an associate member.

Why are you so afraid of having a relationship with the Caribbean? Why should Bermuda, as a success story not offer expertise when and where it can. Why should Bermuda not also take advantage of expertise that are available throughout the Caribbean? Contrary to what many think there are some very brilliant minds in the Caribbean. Doing so does nothing negative for Bermuda.

With regard to the items you list above, I can tell you that the Bahamas, a full Caricom member, is not agreeing to sign on to any of these provisions. The Bahamas is in disagreement with the free movement of people and it is in disagreement with CSME. Caricom is not about to force anything on its members.

Just out of curiosity if these comments were made to the EU by Dr.Brown and the issue of free movement of people and Bermuda participating in the single currency market with this bloc would your concerns be as great as they are with Caricom? Or is it only the thought of this occurring with our Caribbean neighbours that frightens you?

[Guilden M. Gilbert, Jr. on 23.11.05 at 09:26]

Silencedogood,

Your list of four items can also be applied to many of the EU countries.

[silencedogood on 23.11.05 at 09:46]

Guilden,

You are right that the EU would not create so much fear. There are good reasons for that--the EU has political stability, quality education, and enough economic opportunity to support most of their citizens at a level similar to that enjoyed by Bermuda.

The Bahamas has those things too, but not all of our caribbean neighbors are so fortunate. I would bet alot of money there are more caribbean citizens who would seriously consider comming to Bermuda than there are EU citizens willing to do the same.

That being said, I would oppose signing a similar agreement with the EU too! Presently bermudians have EU rights but EU citizens don't have bermuda rights--a great deal for Bermuda.

I can't see how open immigration with anyone would be in our best interests considering our size. Apparently the evils blamed on expats only apply if they are from outside the caribbean.

If Bermuda were to open its borders, wouldn't it be wiser do so with a partner that had alot to offer. Say one in which we could send all our kids to get worldclass college degrees? I dont' see that happening under CARICOM.

I have nothing against providing aid (monetary, advisory, etc.) to caribbean nations, but I prefer to stop short of giving them preferential treatment to come live here. I have no doubt that there are many great minds in the caribbean, nor do I doubt their ability to get a work permit like everyone else.

[loki on 23.11.05 at 09:47]

"Silencedogood,

Your list of four items can also be applied to many of the EU countries."

Such as?

And, for the record, I haven't heard anyone suggest that we should join the EU, so what's your point?

[sandgrownan on 23.11.05 at 10:04]

"Silencedogood - Apparently the evils blamed on expats only apply if they are from outside the caribbean." Sadly, this is a disease throught the island, outsiders are generally resented. It happens here, Cayman, Bahamas.....

[Tiger Bay on 23.11.05 at 10:28]

Guilden - the EU point is a red herring. No-one has suggested that we integrate with the EU. Dr. Brown has suggested that we integrate with the CSME, which would be the largest reduction in Bermuda's independence ever.

CSME was a bad idea for the Bahamas, and it's a terrible idea for Bermuda. In fact, it just doesn't make any sense; it shows Dr. Brown's limited understanding of what's really important in the Bermuda economy.

The statement also shows Dr Brown's outlandish hubris. At the same meeting he said it was disgraceful that Caribbean island's levied such low arrivals tax for cruises. That's pretty arrogant - some ports in the islands tried several years ago to raise their arrival taxes only to cut out by the cruise operators until they backed down.

Has Dr. Brown done such a good job "reviving" our tourism sector that he can make such undiplomatic statements about other economies? Does he want to join CSME so he can do them what he's doing to us?

[Yet Another Limey on 23.11.05 at 10:42]

"I think there is a role for Bermuda in the [Caribbean] Single Market and Economy but it is yet to be figured out."

If I wanted Bermuda to be part of CSME I would be disappointed by this very uncommitted remark. Translating this from politician speak to dating speak it would be “I’ve had a nice time, I’ll call you”

[Tiger Bay on 23.11.05 at 10:47]

If that's so, then a more appropriate statement would have been: "Bermuda's PLP wishes to foster greater cultural and leadership ties with the Caricom countries. However, Bermuda's economy differs significantly from others in that region so direct CSME participation is unlikely."

[Walla on 23.11.05 at 11:01]

Guilden - of the things you mention, aspects that we would benefit from and expertise we could provide, how many require us to be a member of CARICOM? Can we not do the same as we are now??

[Fourth Estate on 23.11.05 at 11:24]

Ewart Brown enjoys being the big man. Remember last year's caribbean junket when he hinted of greater trade and tourism ties with China? He's on a power joyride at the taxpayers' expense.

[Onion on 23.11.05 at 11:30]

Silencedogood,

Whatever your opinion is on joining Caricom, your analysis of the Caribean is flawed, bigotted, and insulting, especially when I hear you compare to EU.

1. Economy - The Caribbean, like the EU, has its rich, poor and in between. It comes down to who benefits from the wealth in the country. In Bermuda the economic disparities are widening.

2. Corruption - This is all around the world, yes , including the EU.

3. Education - Where in the EU is the quality of education so great? And who benefits? Eg. What % of students in UK even do 'O' Levels anymore? With respect to the Caribbean the quality of public education in many islands is actually superior to what exists in Bermuda - public or private! (Obviously not ever child has benefit of top education, but neither is this the case in 99% of the countries on the planet). Trinidad and Barbados boast better public education than what exists in Bermuda. The top Jamaican public schools also out perform those in Bermuda. Many Bermudians are now sending their kids to the Caribbean for schooling, where they will actually be equipped to go to university and not have to have remedial training at Bermuda College. Many of these schools still require their students to do 'A' levels. Remember those? We are still singing praises of this BSSC. Yeah, that'll get you into a Ivy League school.

4. Social problems are rampant in Caribbean? You mean like drugs, domestic violence, prostitution, truancy, sex crimes, white collar crimes, rioting youths with machetes, teenage pregnancy, homelessness? No we don't have those problems here. And I'm sure they don't have them in the EU either. Those guys rioting in Paris were just high-spirited youths having fun in their spare time.

Look mate, every place has their problems. If you are not in favour of Caricom membership then that is fine. You are entitled to your opinion. But do not seek to bolster your arguments by making flawed comparisons with other jurisdictions. You sound like that nice old lady on cover of Bermuda Sun who had never travelled before she was 90 years old.

[Tiger Bay on 23.11.05 at 11:50]

Onion; your points are clearly valid. No argument there.

However, the CSME as a system of economic and government interdependency is inappropriate for Bermuda.

CSME makes great sense for many of the "rubbing shoulders" Caribbean countries, but not us.

[Onion on 23.11.05 at 11:59]

TB, No I don't want to join CSME either. Like the UK we can have some ties but we don't have to completely assimilate into any union.

[observor on 23.11.05 at 12:06]

Guilden

Your comments re: silencedogood's EU and the Caribbean comparison are valid, however, I think it's more a matter of degree.

These problems exist in both areas but they are far more prevalent in the Caribbean (at least that has been my own observation from traveling in both).

Attempts to solidify our association with CARICOM (which to my mind are counterintuitive to those in the government who are also seeking independence) will lead to further disparity in our society as exists in the Caribbean at the moment.

[Combat Banker on 23.11.05 at 12:07]

Where did the thought of us joining the EU come from? Have you seen the state of some of the economies that are on the road to membership right now?

Joining either CSME or the EU if we went independent would BOTH be horrible ideas. If you think we have problems with immigration now, wait until you open up our closed economy to either trading block. For one, we would be flooded with cheap labour (EITHER block Guilden) for the menial jobs and edged out of what little skilled jobs are left for the local populus.

In addition Free Trade is a wonderful idea on macroeconomically, BUT the Bermudian economy does not actually produce anything. The theoretical economic benefit from the removal of tarrifs seen from the idea would not work here. The benefit would be one sided, and that side would not be ours. Also, the ability for our balance of payments to remain positive is currently on dependent on the Re-Insurance industry, and joining EITHER trading block would ceded a degree of our independence in maintaining a positive legislative environment to foster that sector, or even keep it here.

Put your hearts aside here for a second ladies & gentlemen (secretly I believe Tiger Bay is actually a girl ;)), joining a trading block, no matter WHICH one, would be suicide for a tiny, one industry, non-manufacturing economy.

Associate Membership. Only thing feasible.

[observor on 23.11.05 at 12:14]

Guilden

My bad. The post should have been directed towards Onion. Sorry.

[Onion on 23.11.05 at 12:17]

We all look alike:-)

[SmokingGun on 23.11.05 at 12:25]

Bermuda has enough issues of it's own and here we have people seriously considering adding more to it. This is a typical mentality when you really want to detract from the real issues at home. Bermuda will gain little from exposing itself to CARICOM any further than as a caual acquaintance.

Just another waste of time, money and resources.

[silencedogood on 23.11.05 at 12:26]

Onion,

You had better take your head out of your ass before you start calling me a bigot. I'll have to tell my wife, who isn't white (gasp), that. You are high if you think the EU and the Caribbean are on par in any of those terms.

You say: "1. Economy - The Caribbean, like the EU, has its rich, poor and in between. It comes down to who benefits from the wealth in the country. In Bermuda the economic disparities are widening."

Thanks for enlightening me--I thought everyone was on lifestyles of the rich and famous in the EU. Give me a break. The EU is vastly more wealthy as a whole than the Caribbean. The standard of living for even their poor is higher than that of some middle income people in the caribbean depending on which island we are talking about.

If you want to talk about disparities go to barbados where about 10 minutes drive from Sandy Lane where Tiger Woods gets married and foriegn dignitaries or golf pros buy houses is a neighborhood on the outskirts of Georgetown.

I've been there and the people are living in a shack no larger than a tool shed which is made of wood, patched with tin sheeting or street signs. Kids are sitting on the front porch disheveled with little clothing. It's heartbreaking. Didn't Bob Marley sing alot of songs protesting the social conditions of Jamaica? Hmm...

A friend of mine is what you would call "middle class" in Barbado. He is smart and hardworking but never got any opportunities. As a result, he drives a cab and makes enough to support his family, but he has to work 20 hours a day to do so, catching catnaps between fares. This is the land of economic opportunity for Bermuda?

You say: "2. Corruption - This is all around the world, yes , including the EU."

Again, thanks for clarifying. There is a slight difference in the scope of corruption and the methods available to redress it. There is also a reason why the term "banana republic" was coined.

Education--you're comparing caribbean education to bermuda but what does that tell us. We know our education system is terrible. I don't think anyone could say otherwise with 50% graduation rates. You are right that Jamaica turns out some great minds--I did not dispute that. But maybe you forgot that people in Jamaica have to qualify for high school and which school they qualify for creates a big difference in the quality of education. A bigger surprise is that the kids of politicians alway seem to get into the best schools. I'm getting my information second hand from a jamaican friend who went through that system, but I can't imagine why she would lie.

As for caribbean education vs. the EU, perhaps you think that the University of the West Indies is on par with the Sorbonne or Oxford but I don't think many else do. Do you think it is also on par with the US or Canada?

I wish I had a dollar for everytime I heard a european say that their "reach" school was in the caribbean. Please. I don't mean to denegrate the caribbean or anyone there trying to better themselves, but the level of edcuation available is simply not on par with the other parts of the world we are discussing.

You say: "4. Social problems are rampant in Caribbean? You mean like drugs, domestic violence, prostitution, truancy, sex crimes, white collar crimes, rioting youths with machetes, teenage pregnancy, homelessness? No we don't have those problems here. And I'm sure they don't have them in the EU either. Those guys rioting in Paris were just high-spirited youths having fun in their spare time."

When was the last time the caribbean sent in troops to protect france from itself? How many times has Haiti had a coup, counter-coup, etc.? Are people from france building boats out of their houses and trying to float to the UK because their situation is so messed up at home? Does the US send marines to evacuate its citizens from france? No place is perfect and not every island in the caribbean has a bad system, but overall I would take the Pepsi challenge between the caribbean and the EU any day. Even Bermuda outpaces some of the worse offenders in the Caribbean and our politicians are no angels.

Your coup de grace is: "You sound like that nice old lady on cover of Bermuda Sun who had never travelled before she was 90 years old."

Thanks, I didn't know we had met. In fact I've lived, worked and/or studied in 9 countries including the caribbean, the EU, north america and Asia. Just about the only place I haven't been is Africa (which I'm planning on visiting in the next 5 years) and antartica. I'm global beyotch. Where does your wealth of disinformation come from?

You should be more careful when making assumptions and in examining a person's point of view before calling them a bigot.

[Way Fast Whitey on 23.11.05 at 12:54]

BERMUDA IS NOT PART OF THE CARRIBEAN. Get an atlas and look for yourself, Bermuda is the same distance from the West Indies as it is from Nova Scotia Canada. The only reason the PLP wants to make Bermuda part of caricom is beacause it is a black organization. I move that Bermuda be admitted into the Candian Conferedation of Provinces. It's a better idea than being associated with those corrupt, poor ass islands 800 miles to our south.

[Two Cents on 23.11.05 at 13:00]

Way Fast,

I hate to say this (and I am sure my wife will kill me BUT when it comes to Corruption - it is all around the world, and I hate to say it but Canada is no better, turn on City-TV or CBC almost any morning and there is another pay-to-play type scandal being uncovered in Canada, particulary with the Gov't.

[Tiger Bay on 23.11.05 at 13:05]

Ah-huh - and in most countries the corruption gets exposed, investigated, and rooted out.

Here we are getting "unethical but not illegal" excuses and then coverups, but that's a different kvetch.

We can argue about the merits of Carib vs EU, but that's not the issue. Why is a major supporter of INDEPENDENCE even trial balloooning something that would increase Bermuda's DEPENDENCE?

[island dweller on 23.11.05 at 13:15]

This is the will of people.

We must follow the request of the Government as they will not lie to us without good cause or mislead us without good cause.

This change in direction is good for each and every Caribbermudian. We will be seen as equal to our Caribbean sisters and brothers.

Caribbermuda is the best in the region and we will be all the better if we follow the PLP government.

[Guilden M. Gilbert, Jr. on 23.11.05 at 13:44]

Tiger,

"Why is a major supporter of INDEPENDENCE even trial balloooning something that would increase Bermuda's DEPENDENCE?"

There is a big difference between INDEPENDENCE and INTERDEPENDENCE.

Don't get me wrong, I do not think that Bermuda needs to or even should join Caricom, but there is nothing wrong with an assoicate membership, which gives us relations with our Caribbean neighbours. After all many Bermudians are decendent from the Caribbean.

I do not recall Dr. Brown or anyone else stating that Bermuda should have membership in Caricom. Because he stated that Bermuda may have a role in the CSME does not equate to Bermuda taking membership in Caricom, nor does it equate to Bermuda accepting CSME. Bermuda is an associate member and there should be nothing wrong with Bermuda adding to discussions on CSME.

I agree with you that in most countries corruption gets exposed and the meer fact that what has been called corruption by many in Bermuda, i.e, unethical but not illegal" is exposing, is it not? Have you ever known anyone who has been accused of corruption to raise his hand and say, "Yes, its true, I have been corrupt"? Corruption is always denied, not just in Bermuda but the world over.

It is up to the electorate, if they believe that there is corruption, to express their beliefs at the polls.

You may feel that we can learn nothing from our southern neighbours but I beg to differ. There was recent press conference held to confirm the signing of a new hotel deal to the tune of $1.7 billion to replace the Cable Beach Strip in Nassau. 5,000 jobs will be available. TDuring the construction phase not a single existing employee will be laid-off. Including this project, in the last ten years there has been somewhere near $6 billion of tourism related investment in the Bahamas and these investments have created nearly 20,000 jobs. Can we not learn something from that so that we can create opportunity for the population of Bermuda and diversify our economy.

Aside from hotel investment, there has been a motion picture studio built in Grand Bahama, where recently the sequels to Pirates of the Caribbean have been filmed. We also know now that the next James Bond movie will be filmed here.

Outside of international business what real opportunities are available for our people? Outside of international business what does Bermuda offer?

This is why I see nothing wrong with maintaining ties with our southern neighbours. International Business is not everything and there are many new investments in the pipeline, not related to international business, why should Bermuda not have the opportunity to win some of these investments?

If international business is impacted by the likes of Florida looking to provide a tax free environment for companies that have traditionally come to Bermuda and other low tax jurisdictions, what does Bermuda have as an alternative source of jobs and income? Nothing.

[silencedogood on 23.11.05 at 13:48]

Guilden,

I think you've raised some good points. How has this development affected land use in the Bahamas? Not having been there I'm also wondering how it compares to bermuda in terms of labor and construction costs?

[Onion on 23.11.05 at 14:11]

Silencedogood,

I understand that sometimes when we get a rush of blood to the head we don't properly read what we are responding to. If you did, you would see that I prefaced my entire statement without commiting to the merits,or lack thereof, of joining Caricom. I never said that the EU was on the same economic platform as the Caribbean. It was you that brought out the attributes of the EU in your dialogue with Guilden and I merely responded to by stating that you have failed to acknowldge the many socio-economic problems that exist in the EU. No-one is arguing about whether or not EU is better than Caribbean.

However you are not analysing the EU with the same scrutiny with which you analyse the Caribbean. For example, it's not about whether Oxford is better than University of West Indies. It's about how many benefit from this. You talk about having access to good education in EU? How many British students go to Oxford?? Are any of those French rioters enrolled at the Insead or the Sorbonne? Just because there are less potholes on the road in Europe, doesn't mean everyone is living off the fat of the land.

You say in Jamaica you have to qualify to get into a good school? Ok, so Eton and Rugby College just take anyone off the street? You don't have to qualify to go to Oxford? You don't have to qualify to go to Chote or Andover in the States? The same goes for any good public school in either country?

Do I think the education in Caribean is better than the US or Canada? If you were to average it out - yes. I went to University in Canada and every West Indian who went to prep school had to skip a year. Grade 13 in N. America cannot hold a candle to A levels. The US has some top schools but also has some crap schools where kids cannot even point out their own country on a map.

What level of education do you think those poor black Katrina victims got down south?

Where does my "wealth of information" come from? I have been to many Caribbean islands and have lived in the EU. Let's just say my experience is more than just second-hand. It seems your only intimate knowledge of the Caribbean is through some friend of yours and a Bob Marley song (btw, Bob sang about black people and corruption around the world - not just Jamaica).

If you want to talk about corruption look at the latest football scandals involving German referees, match-fixing in Italy.

If YOU want to talk about disparities you only need look at the rioting in Paris. Talk to the Algerians in Spain, Portugal and France and see if they share your utopian views of EU. You talk about Barbados? Go to Greece, Spain, Italy and see upscale neighbourhoods that border what you would regard as slums. Europe also has it's fair share of terrorism threats and refugee crisis. let's be real man. No where is safe.

Yes, the EU is wealthier on the whole, but it comes down to who has access to the wealth and the opportunities.

Also, I never called you a bigot. I said your views were bigotted. I understand you are not trying to denigrate the Caribbean so I apologise and take this back. But I would say that these debates often get distorted when people make misleading genaralisations about the Caribbean. The same thing happens when the issue of Independence is discussed. You cannot selectively pick and choose the attributes of one jurisdiction and compare with the faults of another to bolster your argument.

[Guilden M. Gilbert, Jr. on 23.11.05 at 14:13]

With regard to the largest hotels, Atlantis and this new project, existing hotel porperty was and is going to be used.

There is no question that there is an abundant amount of land in the Bahamas. There are 700 islands and cays (pron. keys) with 35 inhabitated islands. Nassau is the most populated but is also one of the smallest (21 x 7). The Bahamas has some 14,000 sq. miles of land versus 53 for Bermuda.

Most investment has historically been made in Nassau and Freeport, Grand Bahama but that is changing rapidly. About three years ago Four Seasons and the Ritz Carlton opened a hotel and golf resport in Exuma, I believe the investment was between $500 and $750 million. There are major hotel investments scheduled for Eleuthera, Bimini and Andros.

Construction costs vary for example you can build a private dwelling using a small or large contractor and you per sq. ft. cost can start from about $80 and can get up to $350 plus.

For the most part labour is less expensive because the cost of living is lower than it is in Bermuda. There is a huge entreprenurial spirit in the Bahamas so income numbers are really not available but when you look at the number and the size of new homes recently built or being built you know that people are doing very well financially.

[Intrigued on 23.11.05 at 14:14]

I am sadly always astounded at how myopic my fellow Bermudians can be.

""I haven't been to every island, but I've been to enough to know that:
1) the caribbean economic position is generally crappy,
2) the governments tend to be corrupt,
3) the education systems tend to be low quality or they fail to educate a majority of the population,
4) social problems are rampant (crime, prostitution, drugs).
""

With the exception perhaps of 1. you could argue the same about our little island. We really aren't that much better.

With regards to 1), Guilden has already pointed out one Carribean island that seems to have its shit together on non-IB development efforts. Further, lets not fool ourselves on just how strong our economic position is:

1)We have a real estate bubble that could burst at any moment,
2)We rely exclusively on the IB sector to maintain our high standard of living, a strategy that could fall apart quickly if the environment that attracts them changes materially at any time,
3)In case anyone hasn't realized it, we are a country of haves and have nots, a big portion of our population (white AND black - just said so no one tries to hijack this) can't afford housing, and are struggling to make ends meet. Look to France to see what happens when you have such a wide gap between citizens.

I am astounded that both parties continue to avoid the real issue on this island that independence will not address. There are a whole lot of rich people and a whole lot more who are struggling. We have poor education and no real social support programs. The result is that the rich will get richer and the poor will get poorer and increasingly unhappy.

[lickinalong on 23.11.05 at 14:14]

A majority of the founders and a majority of the active members of the PLP have deep roots in the Caribbean. If you visit the Maritime museum you will see an interesting exhibit showing the waves of immigration to Bermuda. One of those waves of immigration ocurred in the first half of the 20th century when a large number of immigrants from the British West Indies (particularly St. Kitts)came to Bermuda to make a better life for themselves by working in the tourism industry. Life was better in Bermuda but it was still tough given Bermuda's racial practices and the fact that these recent arrivals were looked down on by both white and black Bermudians. It didn't help that many of these immigrants came here illegally and so were subject to even further potential abuse and exploitation. It is no wonder that the labour movement and the PLP grew out of this disaffected population. You will find that many of the more active PLP members are 2nd or 3rd generation Bermudians whose families have been here no longer than the Portuguese.

I should add that many old white Bermuda families have historical ties to the Caribbean. My family up until the time of my great grandparents were involved in British Guiana (now Guyana). If you look in some of the Hallett books showing family announcements you will find other white families announcing deaths and births to families in the Caribbean. For example the Triminghams appear to have been active in Barbados. Just as black Bermudians do not talk much about their Caribbean roots white Bermudians tend to avoid talking about their Caribbean connections.

The PLP obsession with the Caribbean is really all about kinship. If the PLP are honest there is not much to tie us to the Caribbean other than family ties. We do not trade very much with the Caribbean and there are no direct travel links to the Caribbean. In fact we are not even close to the Caribbean with the closest Caribbean nation, the Bahamas being just under 1,000 miles distant. It is stretching it a bit to describe the Caribbean as our neighbours.

I wish the PLP would be a little more honest about their motivation for a relationship with the Caribbean. I am actually in favour of our current associate status in Caricom but opposed to full membership. I am definitely not in favour of us becoming a full CSME participant. I believe that we can learn some useful things from other island nations and may also be able to help the Caribbean in our own way.

So the next time you hear the PLP talk about a closer relationship with the Caribbean, recognise it is all about kinship.

[silencedogood on 23.11.05 at 14:55]

Onion,

If you are going to take a position either stick by it or admit you are wrong. Don't come back with this BS of "Also, I never called you a bigot. I said your views were bigotted." What's the difference?

Wow, I feel so much better. What is a bigot then? My post reflected my thoughts, not someone else's, so if they are bigoted then I am too. They weren't, so admit it and don't hedge.

Then you go on to misrepresent my sources of information as all second hand or from a song. I guess historically based arguments are offlimits for you because that is second, third, fourth and fifth hand information. You are trying to avoid the real points I raised from LIVING AND WORKING in the caribbean and elsewhere because you can't answer them.

You also misrepresent issues such as education by taking the best from the caribbean and comparing it to the worst of the rest of the world. Even then I don't believe you to be correct. Be honest and compare best to best, mid-range to mid-range and worst to worst. See how that turns out...or don't. I don't care.

The bottom line is that Bermuda needs to associate with those it can learn and benefit from. Individual caribbean islands may fit that description but the carribean as a whole doesn't and joining in any agreement allowing restriction-free immigration to Bermuda is just plain dumb.

[Adjustah on 23.11.05 at 15:00]

"Individual caribbean islands may fit that description but the carribean as a whole doesn't and joining in any agreement allowing restriction-free immigration to Bermuda is just plain dumb."

And there it is...nail on the head...

[Guilden M. Gilbert, Jr. on 23.11.05 at 15:06]

Silncedogood/Adjustah,

I think we all agree that Bermuda should not join such an agreement, however, nobody has said that Bermuda should or would join.

[Tiger Bay on 23.11.05 at 15:10]

Back to Ewart's quote: "I think there is a role for Bermuda in the [Caribbean] Single Market and Economy but it is yet to be figured out."

[Guilden M. Gilbert, Jr. on 23.11.05 at 15:12]

Tiger,

...and there may very well be a role for Bermuda to play as an associate member of Caricom.

[loki on 23.11.05 at 15:14]

"Back to Ewart's quote: "I think there is a role for Bermuda in the [Caribbean] Single Market and Economy but it is yet to be figured out."

Call me Captain Obvious, if you will, but other than joining the Single Market and Economy, what other possibe role could there be for Bermuda? Sending special corps of tea ladies down to help out with the refreshments at their meetings?

[Onion on 23.11.05 at 15:19]

Silencedgood,

I'll be brief.

1. I apologised for calling your views bigotted. This apology obviously went over your head. I must've touched a nerve.

2. You have not shown where I was wrong about education. I dont care if you've lived there. I too have very close contacts who are from there and went to school there. I have family presently in school there. I have also lived in the EU - as I mentioned before. If you've lived there I wonder where all your myopia came from.

3. It was you who began trumpeting the horn of education in EU vs W.I. Why don't YOU provide us with some stats? Best vs best, worst vs worst.

4. I never said Bermuda should join CSME. Why do you continue to bark up this tree?

[Guilden M. Gilbert, Jr. on 23.11.05 at 15:23]

Has any government decision-maker said that Bermuda should have full membership in Caricom? If not than Bermuda, as an associate member, from what I understand, cannot particpate in CSME anyway.

Not being able to particpate does not mean that Bermuda can add nothing to the disussions. CSME is not a forgone conclusion. It is still very much a discussion item at this stage.

When Trinidad proposed an oil deal to Caricom countries, as far as I am aware Bermuda was not included in this proposal because it is not a full member of Caricom.

[loki on 23.11.05 at 15:23]

"Tiger,

...and there may very well be a role for Bermuda to play as an associate member of Caricom."

Ah, but, Guilden: he didn't say "there may be a role for Bermuda to play in CARICOM", he specifically referred to the CSME.

[Guilden M. Gilbert, Jr. on 23.11.05 at 15:24]

Loki,

...a role to play in the CSME discussions as an associate member of Caricom.

[Guilden M. Gilbert, Jr. on 23.11.05 at 15:25]

A role in the discussions is still a role, is it not?

[Nicolette on 23.11.05 at 15:28]

Areas (off the top of my head) where we can benefit by copying the Caribbean:

1) I would love us to adopt the Jamaican government's anti-corruption legislation. They are eons ahead of us.
2) Jamaica is also considering equal rights legislation for gays (currently they are behind us in that sodomy is still illegal... no pun intended)as are Barbados, Trinidad & Tobago and St Lucia
3) The reggae music... well that's a no-brainer...

Tiger Bay - that was quite a detailed post.. looks like someone was prepared for the open mike....

[Tiger Bay on 23.11.05 at 15:33]

"role in the discussions is still a role"

What, we need makebusy work? I fail to see what cooperation with the Caribbean on any of the fundamentals of CSME brings for Bermuda.

Name one benefit we have derived from our several years involvement (and hundreds of thousands of dollars of fees) in this organisation.

We have far more immediate issues to deal with closer to home. The PLP would get more done listening to the people of Bermuda than on their travels.

Ewart Brown wanted to look important in front of the other conference visitors.

[silencedogood on 23.11.05 at 15:34]

Guilden,

Thanks for answering. Not sure it will work in bermuda but worth thinking about. Sounds like the Bahamian attitude has alot to do with success as much as resources, etc.

Intrigued,

You seem to be suffering from the same problem as Onion. First there are thousands of caribbean islands I've been to many, but not all, hence my qualifying statement.

Second, I never said all the caribbean is in bad shape. The bahamas has tourism, cayman has finance, bvi has some IB. But that's three out of thousands. What about trinidad, tobago, turks & caicos, greneda, haiti, the dominican republic, jamaica, etc., etc. These other islands which represent a majority of the caribbean may all have bits of the economic pie that you are focusing on but are not comparable to Bermuda and certainly aren't a model for our development.

Third, Bermuda is in a pretty fantastic situation other than a corrupt/ineffective government. The only thing that can burst the housing bubble is if IB goes away--too little land, high incomes, exploding population.

We have one of the lowest, if not the lowest unemployment rates in the world. We are a small town with an economy comparable to large, globally recognized cities. We are just behind London and New York as an insurance and finance centre.

We have some social problems, yes, but not as bad as many, many other places, and with a more effective police and judiciary they would be less of a problem. I'm not going to bark up the same tree again and again.
You stay in the dreamworld where the caribbean is a utopia that we can all learn from and strive to be like. I'll live in the real world where some islands have alot going for them but most are broke and not models for the future.

[J Starling on 23.11.05 at 15:43]

I have no problem with Caricom. If Bermuda is going to go independent rather than try to reform the remaining Empire into a federation, then we have the choices of going it alone, joining NAFTA, Caricom or the EU proper. I doubt the EU would let us in once independent (we're definetly not in Europe). I certainly wouldn't want to join Nafta, but Caricom would be a good fit. I admit that there are huge inequalities of wealth down there (but we have the same problem here) and between us and them, but we have many similarities. We are all small islands. we all have mostly undiversified economies (them, tourism, us, IB). However, within Caricom we will have a cahnce of helping to reform the Caribbean and maybe move towards a sort of federation. we certainly can't do much outside of it.