Open mike: Bermuda and the Caribbean

Another chance to talk about a topic of your choice.

First comment sets the subject for debate. If you ask a question, be sure to provide your own thoughts too, even if it's in a subsequent comment.

» Tiger Bay says: "The PLP public position is that Bermuda will be an associate member of Caricom and no more. However, leading lights in the PLP indicate otherwise.

First, Dame Lois goes on the record saying that Bermuda should drop the Privy Council for the Carribean Court of Justice.

Then Dr. Ewart says last week at a Caribbean conference that "I think there is a role for Bermuda in the [Caribbean] Single Market and Economy but it is yet to be figured out."

What do you think of Dr. Brown's CSME comment? What do you think about the PLP leadership's habit of unveiling potentially unpopular policy statements OVERSEAS before any consultation with the Bermuda public?"

Comments

[Onion on 23.11.05 at 15:50]

Intrigued,

Silencedogood must be illiterate because he continues to completely misunderstand or properly address anything I have said. That's probably why he has lived in different Caribbean islands and hasn't learned a thing about cultural environment he's lived in. He talks about "thousands" of Caribbean islands. He must be talking about the uninhabited ones too.

[Silverback on 23.11.05 at 16:07]

Silencedogood, I have never read such rubbish about the Caribbean in all my life!! You make generalisations about the Caribbean but offer no rebutle to what Onion has said. You obviously don't know jack all about Trinidad or Barbados, or Jamaica for that matter. Myopic is too kind a word for you.

[silencedogood on 23.11.05 at 16:08]

Onion,

I'll be as brief as possible.

1) You offered a hedged apology and continued to misrepresent my views. If you mean it I'll accept it, but under the circumstances it seemed less than sincere. And why wouldn't someone calling you a bigot touch a nerve?

2)We differ in our views of the education quality--its a simple as that. If it was worldclass education on par with what is available in the US or EU I would think there would be greater evidence of this in terms of good government, economic output and positions of authority with large multinational businesses.

3) Here you go...
West Indies
No specific admissions info listed other than the need to be english proficient and
"Associate Degrees, with a minimum GPA of 2.5
Holders of Associate Degrees from approved Caribbean Tertiary level institutions are considered as having satisfied normal matriculation requirements for entry to certain faculties."
http://www.uwi.edu/p_students_admissions.html

Oxford
Was a bit difficult to pin down on exact info but it stated...
"Although we do not have standard offers, courses are academically demanding and successful applicants normally achieve the highest grades in their school-leaving examinations, equivalent to AAA at A-level. Candidates with Scottish qualifications usually offer AAAAB or better at Higher level and A/B in two or more CSYS or Advanced Highers subjects. in the International Baccalaureate we usually require a minimum of 38 points with 6s and 7s in the higher levels."
http://www.admissions.ox.ac.uk/faq.shtml

Harvard
Requires the student to take the SAT and three SAT II exams. SAT scores must be at least 1400 out of 1600. This is in the high 90's for percentiles. A teacher reccomendation and personal interview are also required.
http://www.admissions.college.harvard.edu/utilities/faq/admissions/tests/index.html
http://www.usnews.com/usnews/edu/college/rankings/brief/natudoc/tier1/t1natudoc_brief.php

I could go on to point out differences in faculty, resoruces, etc., but you can follow the link. Again, WI is a fine school and I don't mean to suggest smart people don't work there or graduate from there, but it is not a world class school. End of story.

4) No you didn't say bermuda should join CSME, you just criticized me for my opposition to it.

[JJ on 23.11.05 at 16:15]

Why does anyone think that NAFTA or the EU would even be remotely interested in an independent Bermuda joining them? What do have to trade? What benefits would we bring to the table?

[silencedogood on 23.11.05 at 16:18]

Onion,

Wow, I'm tracking down all this info to respond to your post about how you apologised and come back to more personal attacks. I'm so sorry I doubted the sincerity of your apology. You are right, I am illiterate. I bow to your superior intellect and congratulate you on yet another insightful post. Now where is that damn sarcasm mark...

Silverback,
Nice to meet you too. You keep great company.

I apparently missed the rule where you are not allowed criticize the caribbean or suggest that other nations might have a better system.

[Tiger Bay on 23.11.05 at 16:21]

"within Caricom we will have a chance of helping to reform the Caribbean"

Ha ha ha ha ha ha sob.

The PLP can't even reform Cabinet!

[SmokingGun on 23.11.05 at 16:32]

J Starling, why do we need to burden ourselves with trying to change the carribbean? Those guys have got some serious issues to deal with that do not remotely need us to try to get involved with. Once you join a federation you have to play by it's rules. Bermuda is the second most remote island in the world (sleepy feel free to correct me if I'm wrong on that) we are so protected by our distance from others that there is an inherent benefit to stay out of Caricom. As an associate member maybe we could offer something or even gain but to end up having to run our affairs according to a federation of islands is just not worth what we will ultimately be forced to give up.

[Tiger Bay on 23.11.05 at 16:40]

The essential difference:

- Most of the governments from Caricom islands support the organisation as a way to get some desperately needed money flowing into their countries.

- The PLP see Caricom as a way to waste our money.

Hence, Ewart's periodic trips down south to say arrogant and ignorant things.

[J Starling on 23.11.05 at 16:42]

Consider toursim for a moment. We are outcompeted by our brothers and sisters to the South due to their lower wages, which is connected partly to their greater self-reliance (re food) and partly to weak labour unions. Is it not conceivable that through a federation with federal labour laws and such we can effectively end this aspect of the competition and leave tourism down solely to location, culture and natural beauty. We have huge advantages in this respect. Similarly, just as the Caribbean followed our tourism model is it not impossible that they too can copy our international business? It benefits us in the long run to help our cousins down south and get us all on equal footing. Using a reformed national service (regiment) we can do a lot of good down there and expose our own youth to the hard reality of life for the majority of our species. At the end of the day we are stronger together than alone - we are after all just a tiny speck of land.

[Combat Banker on 23.11.05 at 16:52]

Starling,

Problem with the labour law point is that you are assume that the "tourism" product is unique to Bermuda & the Carribean. If by some stroke of genius we raise the minimum wage for all the Carribean, it will just be too expensive for Americans to vacation there as well, and instead for example they will go to Mexico. We would just succeed in killing their tourism product as well. Even in wages, price fixing can be a problem. You need to raise the general level of the economies there first to match, or the will be out-competed.

Also you are assuming there is enough "reinsurance" business to go around to the entire Carribean. The marketplace is actually not that big.

Supplu & Demand brother.

[Tiger Bay on 23.11.05 at 16:52]

"It benefits us in the long run to help our cousins down south and get us all on equal footing."

How? Why? Hang on, did you just propose that we create a federation to help them build strong labour unions so that our tourism sector could appear cost competitive by comparison? So, you're saying we should participate more in Caricom just to fuck em up?

Brilliant! The PLP has the perfect team for it.

[Combat Banker on 23.11.05 at 16:53]

Note to self: learn to spell check...

[SmokingGun on 23.11.05 at 16:55]

J Starling - our tourism is also affected by a couple of other things that we'll have a pretty tough time changing: we're in the middle of the atlantic with limited land mass and no other islands around us to act as destinations. We are at a lattitude that efectively gives us weather similar to the upper part of North America, our biggest market. When it's good weather here it's good weather there. When it's cold and snowing they want the warm/hot carribbean not Bermuda where it's sweater weather.

As far as labour laws, if you are proposing changing pay scales to compete with the islands then it's a non-starter. The cost of just living in Bermuda will thwart that immediately. That's one of the reasons Ewart thinks they should raise the landing fees down there.

And as far as IB - why would we want to add the competition? Besides IB probably prefers the fact that Bermuda is a little isolated from all the other islands.

[silencedogood on 23.11.05 at 16:59]

JStarling,

You are absolutely right that other islands will try to copy our model. They have been trying to do so for some time now. BVI and Cayman are doing a good job of it but have reputation problems. (porn servers, money laundering,etc.)

However, there can be alot of problems trying to integrate when you are not on the same economic page. Note the difficulties france is having sustaining its economic system when there are no barriers to leaving the country to go to eastern europe which is also cheap and less regulated.

The caribbean would have to catch up for a true affiliation with them to be worthwhile, but of course, there is nothing wrong with helping them develop.

This is why I suggested earlier that it is smarter to leave the status quo in place where we have access to the EU but not vice versa.

The present arrangement also allows us to send aid to the caribbean and study areas that work for particular islands--as mentioned in Guilden and Nicolette's comments--without opening the floodgates for people comming here.

Oops, I mentioned the caribbean again. I'll prepare for the deluge of hate mail. Does this mean Jake and I can hang out now? ;)

[Combat Banker on 23.11.05 at 17:12]

Mexico would just about as much sense as EU or CARICOM actually. It's part of NAFTA. We have as many ties to North America as CARICOM or EU.

Same economic arguement though: We are a non-manufaturing, isolated, one industry economy. ANY sort of free trade block would not actually benefit Bermuda at all.

[J Starling on 23.11.05 at 17:13]

I am in agreement with staying with the EU, but how many of us think they will let us stay once independent? And how many thinks that we won't be going independent sooner or later? The criticism concerning my proposals are valid I concede, but not completely insurmontable. Is it not possible for us to help them develop alternative industries? There is a lot of potential down there other than purely tourism. apologies if I appeared toimply we should mess them up for our benefit, I meant we could work together for our mutual benefit. The Caribbean bears the marks of imperialist economics since their conquest, right up to Cold War interference. What needs rebuilt is the very economic model itself. For example, using Jamaicas bauxite deposits for the benefit of Jamaica (profit wise). (much as Venezuala's oil is now being used for social profit).

[Onion on 23.11.05 at 17:17]

Silencedogood,

You have compared 3 universities and used this to sum up the quality of education in an entire region from nursery school to university. No stats? No credibility.

I never criticised your opposition to joining Caricom. Read below.

"Look mate, every place has their problems. If you are not in favour of Caricom membership then that is fine. You are entitled to your opinion.

Posted by Onion on 23.11.05 at 11:30 "

I criticised your derogatory comments about the caribbean that you have made without offering anything to back up your statements.

[SmokingGun on 23.11.05 at 17:20]

As an associate we could offer some things that may help. If individuals or companies in Bermuda wanted to invest in a carribean project via the relationship for instance fine but in general a lot of people would ask why should our tax dollars be promoting or helping devlope other countries when we have our own needs to worry about.

[Combat Banker on 23.11.05 at 17:21]

Starling

Indeed. European price fixing of Bananas etc as terms of allowing them to go independent was the root of many of the Carribean's present evils.

And losing the EU passport (which we get by being British) is exactly what Independence mean. I can't see why people have a problem with that concept. they are mutually exclusive.

The "Social Profit" of Venezula's oil is debatable. Like any centralized government the system is inefficient and prone to cronyism.

[Tiger Bay on 23.11.05 at 17:27]

There are many Bermudian companies doing business in the Caribbean. They do more than our government ever can, will, or should.

Economically we have more in common with Stamford Connecticut than anywhere else. Maybe we can join the local Elks Lodge and call it a day.

[Guilden M. Gilbert, Jr. on 23.11.05 at 17:35]

J. Starling,

"Consider toursim for a moment. We are outcompeted by our brothers and sisters to the South due to their lower wages, which is connected partly to their greater self-reliance (re food) and partly to weak labour unions."

I think I see the point you are trying to make, however, you make a very big error with you last three words in the above quote. The unions in the Caribbean are very, very strong influencial insitutions. Although they yield a great deal of power, the unions in the Bahamas balance their power with some common and economic sense during negotiations.

Also don't be fooled into believing that within the hotel industry the workers are behind Bermuda as far as income.

[silencedogood on 23.11.05 at 17:44]

Jesus Christ Onion! You are the one who asked me to compare WI and some of the other schools I named.

I compared what I consider to be the best university in the caribbean to the best in the US and one of the best in the EU. If you think there is a better university in the caribbean then cite it.

[Tiger Bay on 23.11.05 at 17:51]

It's a typical ADD Bermuda scenario that the gallery starts fighting about the merits of the Caribbean (sooner or later I guess it will end up about race) instead of the central issue: our flawed leadership and the inadequate performance of their government.

James Carvill used to yell at the Clinton team "it's the economy stupid" to keep them focussed on things that matter.

What do we have to yell to keep our frequent fliers focussed on delivery instead of grandiose statements, racial bigotry, and opacity of governance.

[Combat Banker on 23.11.05 at 18:12]

Actually Tiger, I think there is no need to change it at all.

THE ECONOMY
THE ECONOMY
THE ECONOMY

It's being ignored to settle old scores, satify egos, and build up personal wealth/power bases.

[SmokingGun on 23.11.05 at 18:18]

Tiber Bay - I like the term used earlier "Red Herring".

That pretty much sums up all these irrelevent side streets these guys like to run up and down instead of leading the parade down main street.

[Bill Cook on 23.11.05 at 18:23]

silencedogood,

At least you got an apology !

I am still waiting for mine !

Be patient the truth will eventually surface clever though the smokescreens may be.

Have a pleasant thanksgiving all,

[Intrigued on 23.11.05 at 18:33]

Silence

"You stay in the dreamworld where the caribbean is a utopia that we can all learn from and strive to be like."

I actually never said we could learn much from the carribean, with the exception of my comment about Bahamas. I actually am not in favour of a tighter union, it makes no sense to me. Please don't put words in my mouth.

"Third, Bermuda is in a pretty fantastic situation other than a corrupt/ineffective government. The only thing that can burst the housing bubble is if IB goes away--too little land, high incomes, exploding population.

We have one of the lowest, if not the lowest unemployment rates in the world. We are a small town with an economy comparable to large, globally recognized cities. We are just behind London and New York as an insurance and finance centre.

We have some social problems, yes, but not as bad as many, many other places, and with a more effective police and judiciary they would be less of a problem. I'm not going to bark up the same tree again and again."

You are a perfect example of what I was talking about. I am paraphrasing the above comment .... "as long as the bubble doesn't burst and IB stays here all is good, just lock up a few disgruntled folks and we keep goin on goin on"

My god man/woman take a look around you. High employment yes, wages that they can barely make ends meet on. There is real strife in our island like never before. Your perfect world is fine if you are an educated Bermudian (black or white) who can participate in the IB business or if you are an entrepreneur. If your an average Joe not so. You can only get by with a disapperaing middle-class for so long.

[Combat Banker on 23.11.05 at 18:42]

Intrigued you are very right. The disparity of wealth between rich & poor has been getting worse and worse lately, it will bite us all in ass sooner or later. THAT is our major obstacle. The only way out of that is to have a better educated workforce to take the better jobs, and keep more of the long term wealth here. A 54% graduation rate is not helping us right now though.

[3rd Person on 23.11.05 at 18:43]

Sigh. I'm glad I missed this post this morning. Dame Lois' comment was officially shot down by the PLP, and Ewart's comment is blatantly political vaporware. Why all the excitement over it? I'm no independence fan, but I think I know an anti-independence troll when I see one.

[Intrigued on 23.11.05 at 18:48]

Combat:

Your bang on for why any union doesn't make sense:

"We are a non-manufaturing, isolated, one industry economy. ANY sort of free trade block would not actually benefit Bermuda at all."

Silence, now you know what my position is on economic unions and Bermuda.

I also think that the same quote from Combat says why this island is in a precarious situation. It will be hard to maintain full employment in occupations where people can earn enough to live comfortably based on the one industry that we rely on. Unless some government, any government, does something to train Bermudians who are not lucky enough to follow a professional path for roles that are needed to support the IB industry.

[Ethiops on 23.11.05 at 19:10]

This is pretty pathetic really. With so much to do, we can take the time to ask who we can join, as if they would to come in and do our work for us. All the cries of tourism, what real measures have we took to compare with the attraction found elswhere? Bermuda needs to stop running all over the place, take the bull by the horns and clean up its shitty looking backyard.

[Big Bad Wolf ^..^ on 23.11.05 at 19:26]

All you have to do is open a history book on Bermuda and you quickly realize that much of our long history has been spent in frugal and poor economic conditions.The last fifty years have been the most prosperous but history would indicate that this will not go on forever.

[Onion on 23.11.05 at 19:32]

Silencedogood,

It was YOU who first said compare the best vs best, and worst vs worst. I put the question back on you to illustrate the futility and redundancy of such a daft argument! Making a comparisn between Harvard and UWI does NOT sum up the quality of education in a nation. That's about as absurd as saying the richest man in country A is richer than the richest man in country B so country A is richer than country B.

I cannot persist with you any longer. I will only conclude by saying that erroneous and unfounded comments about the Caribbean add nothing to these debates. YOU initiated the comments about the Caribbean and have yet to back them up.

[Intrigued on 23.11.05 at 19:33]

BBW

How true. Firwst it was cedar and easter lilies, then tourism and now IB. We have built the island on a number of one trick ponies. Each better than the former admittedly, but that is no guarantee that we can do it again when the current pony gets old.

[Big Bad Wolf ^..^ on 23.11.05 at 19:42]

Onion cook with this check out how many people were murdered in Jamacia last year.I think you will find the stats shocking.There are many wonderful island cultures to the South of us but we should really take our rose tinted glasses off concerning their respective realities.There is no harm in having associate status in Caricom but we should be realistic on what is to be gained or shared.On the simple issue of travel before Bermuda required travel visas in respect to Jamacia we were importing a large level of street crime from a portion of our Jamacian visitors.

[Combat Banker on 23.11.05 at 19:49]

"Political Vaporware"! Heh! 3rd Person that just kills me!!!!

True the more likely explanation is that Ewart was speaking off the cuff. But it's been a lively debate. Gotta get the government all on message though.

[silencedogood on 23.11.05 at 20:10]

Onion,

This is my last reply to you. I'm sick of your nonsense and I think everyone is sick of us fighting.

You asked me to show you data comparing the best to the best, etc. It seemed a good enough measure for you until you saw the facts. Only then did you criticise the measure. Its reasonable to infer a lesser quality education because if the caribbean was churning out einsteins left, right and centre its best university would have to have higher standards and it would be attracting students from beyond the caribbean.

As for the US, access to education is phenominal. Beyond the ivy league there are a host of highly respected state schools offering quality, cheap educations. There are technical schools, junior colleges, etc. etc. And plentiful student loans. The majority of people can and do go to public school and get great educations. The same is true for Canada. The EU is a slightly different system but the same holds true.

My response doesn't cover every angle of this issue because there is neither the time nor the interest to do so. I've yet to see you offer any attempt to prove your point through anything but annecdotes from recent newsstories.

You may feel that my arguments add nothing to the debate, but at least I'm stating a position which can be debated. That adds alot, even if it is only for people to debunk them using facts. You are apparently incapabe of doing either.

What adds no value are personal attacks, i.e. calling names or attacking people as bigots. Getting personal is the last refuge of a bad argument. You got there in the first few sentences of your first post at about 11:30 this morning. Congratulations.

Everyone have a great Thanksgiving--even you Onion.

[Onion on 23.11.05 at 20:30]

BBW, 1400+ were murdered in JA last year. I know the stats. That is not the premise of the argument. He made blanket statements about the Caribbean having crappy economy, corruption, poor education etc etc and then heaped praise on EU as though these elements do not exist in the EU. We are not comparing which territory is better. He was comparing the best of Europe with the worst of the Caribbean in his statement. That is unfair and misleading as regards the debate on Caricom and, for that matter, independence.

[Onion on 23.11.05 at 20:34]

Just got your last post. Happy thanksgiving to you too. You put out a point for debate and you unsuccessfully defended your point. That's not being personal. That just means your point doesn't really hold up. Don't take it personal.

[Slowhand on 23.11.05 at 21:14]

I'm quite surprised at the lack of (for want of a better word) RESPECT that Bermuda is getting here when being compared to all these other places being mentioned.

[Big Bad Wolf ^..^ on 23.11.05 at 21:47]

No its not the premise of the argument Onion but its the reality of full membership of Caricom and open immigration.Re your remarks on Europe --all correct but you forgot to mention the genocide in the Balkans and the nearing membership of Turkey.It was interesting what the the new head of Germany had to say on things as she made her way around the prime capitals of Europe today.The EU is action packed with problems in the near future...and finally the question of when Russia will join? Globalization is moving swiftly and I can see the Caricom being sucked up by Nafta. Meanwhile get ready to learn Mandarian Chinese...pretty soon they will be the largest economic power and their outreach will meet you in your lifetime.

[Guilden M. Gilbert, Jr. on 24.11.05 at 00:51]

BBW,

Actually the Caribbean will be sucked up in FTAA not NAFTA.

All,

The fact is overall Bermuda is currently an economic success and hopefully it will remain a success for a long time to come. My greatest concern is for those who do not have the aptitude to find employment in IB. Bermuda has a low unemployment rate currently but with a 54% graduation rate it will not take long for the unemployment rate to reach double digits as the persons unable to graduate will be completely cut-off from the economy.

This will lead to widespread crime, which in-turn will cause economic hardship as IB will seek more economically sound jurisdictions from which to operate. The gem that is currently Bermuda will be no more.

Bleek outlook I know but unless the problems are dealt with this is very possible. Many of you have talked about countries in the Caribbean that are poverty stricken and crime laden, they are probably at the point where it could get no worse, however, the Bermuda economy is very fragile and as the saying goes, "The bigger you are the harder you fall." Bermuda's fall will be very hard. Bermuda and Bermudians need to stop turning their noses up at countries that are not as successful because arrogance will only serve you well when you are doing well. When the tide turns those who experienced your arrogance will ignore your pleas for help.

Many say ignore the Caribbean, but after natural disasters it is our Caribbean neighbours that come in and lend assistance to restore electricity for example and vise versa.

Just because some of you are making a whole lot of money and have nice homes this does not make you any better than anyone else. Those that have been fortunate to have done well financially would be better served long-term by giving back to the community within which they accrued their wealth. Not necessarily in a monetary way but through helping to educate others on how to be successful and create wealth.

The educational system is in the worst condition it has ever been in and the reality is it is a Bermuda problem, not just a Bermuda Government problem. All of Bermuda needs to understand the potential long-term impact of a failing education system and all of Bermuda needs to play a role in improving it for the long-term stability of the Island.

From where I sit there are a two main things that must happen in Bermuda in order to provide long-term stability:

1) Education and improving the education system has to be the primary focus. Unless this is done long-term Bermuda will become even more reliant on a foreign workforce.

2) Just as important, there needs to be diversification of the economy. IB has served us well and probably will continue to do so but we have become much to reliant on it remaining. So much so that we walk on egg shells when it comes to IB. No country should be so heavily reliant on one source of income.

Rather than this site being used exclusively to complain and criticise, rather than constantly fight along political lines maybe it should be used as a forum for how Bermuda can solidify its economic situation long-term. The issues I raised above are very possible. Is it not better to put aside political, racial and economic differences and focus solely on the realities that face Bermuda, no matter which party is in Government or which race did this to that race or who has more money than whom? It is very easy to point fingers and blame someone else but everyone has a role to play in the long-term stability of Bermuda.

[Combat Banker on 24.11.05 at 06:39]

The voice of reason as usual Guilden.

Excellent post.

[Big Bad Wolf ^..^ on 24.11.05 at 06:56]

The Wolf agrees with Mr Gilbert 100 percent. Since fifty percent of our kids are getting a good education in private schools.Maybe its time to privatize the other fifty percent and establish strong school boards.The extra money saved could go to an edowment fund to under write school fees for students that need financial assistance and college scholarships.

[Tiger Bay on 24.11.05 at 07:55]

3rd Person says "Ewart's comment is blatantly political vaporware"

When a politician and deputy leader of the governing party goes on record saying that "I think there is a role for Bermuda in the [Caribbean] Single Market and Economy", reasonable people take him at his word.

The problem is that nearly EVERYTHING these guys say is political vaporware. What is policy and what is smoke blowing up our collective?

[Combat Banker on 24.11.05 at 08:17]

Yes after the electorate's posteriors smell like old hickory, a little clarity is required.

Look, I hope no one takes my disillusionment with our current polititians as merely a signal of my own affilations, because it is not. I think Freddie Wade would weep if he saw this current lot. Bermuda is deep deep trouble right now, and I don't see anything being done about it.

Forget about CARICOM, forget about independence. We will deal with that later (and we HAVE too). Lets educate our frickin' children first! Bermuda is a small place. We CAN actually make a difference and do something about this.

I say either the PLP membership kicks out Scott and makes Dale Butler premier (at least you know he'd focus on education), or they get voted out for a few years, and new blood & ideas come back.

[Turtle on 24.11.05 at 08:23]

Guilden, You are absolutely right. Bermuda not only has a long way to fall, but - unlike most of the islands in the Caribbean - it has no possibility of feeding itself, let alone any commercially exploitable natural resources.

You are also right that we need to focus on some solutions. One idea: mentoring, involvement with youth programmes and sports (as Wolf has often suggested), involvement in school programmes etc. is one way of countering the effects of our education system, and it is something we could each do as individuals.

[NoVote on 24.11.05 at 08:30]

I've read through most of the above threads, and have yet to identify within them a single positive economic reason for Bermuda to join Caricom.

Generally countries form trading blocks such as these for mutually beneficial economic reasons.

So, in case I'm missing something, I would greatly appeciate it if someone out there could tell me what the ECONOMIC benefits might be for Bermuda. I just can't see them.

[Bill Cook on 24.11.05 at 08:37]

Bermuda has always been a fragile economy but somehow has managed to stay afloat.

It could realistically be claimed to have been lucky inasmuch as due to the second world war it brought the American forces here and with them a large influx of dollars plus an airport facility etc.

We had then considerable foreign investment for hotels that were very successful for a period.

When for a variety of reasons the tourism faltered we had the arrival of the re insurance business which grew rapidly and developed many pilot businesses with it.

Whether it grew too fast for the country to cater to it is probable.

Education while vitally important is not a clear cut solution to the failure rate of 50% of graduates in the sense of determining who is responsible for that dismal rate ?
The problem of so many falling through the cracks is much deeper than the class room as it goes to the family structure in my opinion.

We can have the best schools and the best teachers and still have failures as its not easy to legislate human behaviour in having and raising responsible children in a nurturing environment.

I personally see a tremendous need for skilled tradesmen such as electricians plumbers carpenters masons mechanics etc etc not all need or desire to be directly involved in IB but it is desirable to have enough to minimise the need to bring in outside workers.

That is where the Technical Institute come in, as it may appeal to greater number of our youth.

Regardless of our collective efforts we will always have a percentage of people who simply fail to measure up to the required skills and allowance will be made for them.

It is very true we have become arrogant and look down on our neighbours to the south esp as in many cases some of their skilled tradesmen could successfully compete with our best here.

It be said we were indeed lucky but I think there was more to it as Bermuda has always been innovative in its survival abilities but in todays world it is tougher than ever and a wake up call is timely.

The price of survival as always is eternal vigilance.

That we are not as successful as we would like to think is reflected in the way so many Bermudians are in fact leaving due to the very high cost of living and reduced quality of life esp with our seniors.

The numbers are quite sobering as are the numbers of well educated young graduates who choose not to return home.

We should both accept and give help where needed but just how much we can benefit from closer ties to the carribbean is doubtful in my opinion.

For many yrs post war the greatest export from the carribbean has been people seeking to better their lives elsewhere esp the brightest and best.

Bermudas survival and quality of life are being tested as never before and will need some serious action to control and such very valuable and positive input as we are getting on this important matter here is greatly appreciated by all.

[Tiger Bay on 24.11.05 at 08:37]

There are no benefits to Bermuda joining CSME. Ewart knows it; he just wants to be invited back to play the big man down south again.

I also believe that Bermuda has not gained anything from its Caricom participation. Show me one benefit that puts food on the table.