Pop quiz
What heinous act could possibly provoke comments such as:
“As Christians, we must stand for righteous living, and we must bring back some Godly order to our society.”
Or
“We don’t want to give the enemy a foothold as we know that he comes to steal, kill and destroy.”
Or
“Pray, pray, pray.”
The murder of Bermudian missionary Colin Lee? The decision of a local church to knowingly hired a convicted paedophile, who subsequently abused a boy at that church? Or the news that an aspiring 21-year-old entrepreneur wants to bring in a few cases of a speciality liquor from Canada, to sell to local hotels?
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Wow... I'm stunned.
"If we keep quiet then we are only adding to the proliferation of alcohol in this community. As Christians, we must stand for righteous living, and we must bring back some Godly order to our society"
Just curious... what was Jesus' first miracle again?
"Righteous exalteth a nation: but sin is a reproach to any people"
Again... what would the sin be?
This is just plain weird.
I can see the other arguments, parking, increased traffic etc. as MAYBE being valid, but... wow... sinning?
Posted by Uncle Elvis on 21.11.05 at 23:23
Ridiculous!
I commend the young man for his enthusiasm and hope that it won't be crushed by the vocal minority!
Well stated Elvis!
Posted by Terry Cloth on 22.11.05 at 06:08
They should all drink up and be of Good Cheer;tis the season to be jolly.
Posted by Big Bad Wolf ^..^ on 22.11.05 at 07:21
I read the article in utter disbelief yesterday. The guy is not planning to sell it out of the house but needs the licence as that is where the business is based. What is the problem with these people?
Posted by Simon on 22.11.05 at 08:38
Oh come on Elvis..... we all know that was grape juice, not the evil spirits!!!
Posted by Slowhand on 22.11.05 at 08:46
Sounds like a lot of fuss over nothing, there must be more to this.
Do we know what the 'speciality liquor' is? He could be planning on selling meths to the homeless!
Do we know which churches/Christians are behind the e-mails? Could it be the same church the Goslings (or other compettitor) attends?
Or does he simply have an enemy (e.g. scorned ex-girlfriend) on the island going out of their way to destroy him for revenge?
Posted by Yet Another Limey on 22.11.05 at 09:03
Yet Another Limey... no offense but selling meths to homeless is hardly a reason to go into business to make money (his intended goal) and, really, it's all about sin and that's it. This is exactly why the slot machines were banned, why the issue of casinos has never really been considered - this is the kind of lobbying that many individuals in the church do very effectively and results in the government issuing laws to enforce the "rules" of the church to everyone and not just its members. Its why we never have any shops open on Sundays until 1pm....
Posted by Nicolette on 22.11.05 at 09:18
Nicolette, As he's planning to distribute his product through the hotels I doubt it's meths as well, my point was there must be more to this.
Posted by Yet Another Limey on 22.11.05 at 09:27
Now let's consider how religious extremism has benefited the world.
Hmmm.......still struggling with that one.
As far as I'm concerned people are entitled to their beliefs and opinions, but I have a serious aversion to them trying to impose such upon those around them.
That's the bheaviour of an extremist.
If an activity is legal, then presumably the wider community considers it acceptable. It should therefore be each individual's choice whether they wish to engage in it.
If a person chooses not to engage in an activity on religious grounds, more power to them. That's their right.
They should, however, respect the rights of others to do the oppposite.
Whenever I see people using religion and the citing of scriptures in this way it angers me, as it is merely a cynical attempt to manipulate by injecting emotion and politics an argument that can't be won rationally on its own merits.
Often this is at the expense of a reasonable, moderate and tolerant person, who is acting perfectly legitimately.
Ultimately, I suspect that the motives of the objecting party in this instance are really more to do with the environmental impact that commercial vehicles might have upon the traffic volumes along Pompano Beach Road.
A complaint on these grounds would be understandable. Aside from commercial traffic to the Pompano Beach Club (which incidentally has a liquor license) and a government facility at its far end, the road is very quiet (I am a former resident of the area).
However, if this is the case, then the use of religious arguments is even more offensive, as it would suggest to me that the principles and beliefs - around which so much importance is apparently being placed - are really nothing more than convenient tools that are being exploited for anything but religious purposes.
Posted by NoVote on 22.11.05 at 09:46
I personally find the churches in Bermuda to be making strange choices in the fights that they choose to take up.
Gambling in Casinos/Bars...NO WAY
Bingo at Church Hall... THATS OK
Businesses Selling Alcohol...NO WAY
Wine for Church/Communion... THATS OK
Break almost any Commandment Monday - Saturday
thats ok too, as long as you sing your soul out on Sunday.
Parishioners suffering in poverty while Ministers/Revs driving BMWs & Mercedes around the country; this last one really bothers me.
I hope St. Peter brings these points up at the Pearly Gates.
Posted by Two Cents on 22.11.05 at 09:56
Remember kids, these are the same bozo's that protested the first Harry Potter film on the grounds that it would promote witchcraft...based on that stupid fact alone, I am not even slightly shocked at this situation. Pass the fruit loops, please...
Posted by Adjustah on 22.11.05 at 10:25
I'd actually like to know what he's planning to import that's going to make hime money almost any "speciality" product (Boutique Wines, High-End Spirits, Unique Beers for Special Events) the major hotels either import themselves or special order through their exsisting suppliers. I find it hard to believe that he has found a product that a hotel would rather buy from him. I wish him luck, but I think he'll be disappointed with sales.
Posted by Two Cents on 22.11.05 at 10:28
Absinthe?
Posted by Adjustah on 22.11.05 at 10:33
I cannot say that I agree with them, but this is a free country and they are entitled to make their position known, as much as any of you are entitled to support him.
I doubt very seriously that this is a Goslings sponsored effort.
What I do believe is that it is a misguided effort on the behalf of residents who do not want to see their neighbourhood become a rat hole. We had a small grocery in our neighbourhood that sold wine and beer and guess what, people stood outside to drink it on the wall. Then came weed and later harder drugs for sale. Now we have hell to move the drug trade even though the small Grocery is long gone.
Personally, I think they have every right to make their own wishes known. If they were from MADD or AA would any of you be so against their right to protest?
I think anything that has any link to the Church gets blamed by those of you who have more of a problem with it than it has with you.
Posted by jake on 22.11.05 at 10:35
If you are going to deny this person an opportunity do it on the grounds that it is a residential area not zoned for business. While I do respect the religous lobby the statements I have read from them are way over the top even for Bermuda.
As Christians, we must stand for righteous living, and we must bring back some Godly order to our society,
We don’t want to give the enemy a foothold as we know that he comes to steal, kill and destroy
Pray, pray, pray
Sounds like the Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse are coming for a convention.
Posted by charles on 22.11.05 at 11:08
I have a tendency to agree with Jake on the "premise" of what types of products should be allowed to be sold out of peoples houses. Alchohol is a controlled substance and there probably are some clear laws as to how it's stored etc. The church may have gone a little over-board on their reaction but I wouldn't want every Tom, Dick and Jane setting up a liqour business out of their house. Rent a commercial space and operate like a legitimate business for god's sake. (Sorry, I just had to.)
As to Mr. Colin Lee. I think this man's family deserves the honour of a posthumous award of the highest order the country could possibly give. I'd even go along with a school name change if one was named after him. He is an inspiration to all those struggling to turn their lives around and become a giver rather than taker. I am proud to know he was a Bermudian.
Posted by SmokingGun on 22.11.05 at 11:16
Blessed are the cheesemakers.
Posted by ace on 22.11.05 at 11:26
Charles,
I am a Christian, but I would have to agree that there are brands of marketing getting mixed in with Christianity these days who will simply throw scripture at an issue and see what sticks.
Christianity was always - from the time of Christ - first and foremost a choice. WE should be welcoming people over to our side because they can see the good we are doing and wish to learn more. I am not so supportive of the angry activism that mascarades as Christian love currently.
Posted by jake on 22.11.05 at 11:33
"If they were from MADD or AA would any of you be so against their right to protest?"
If it were MADD or AA, they wouldn't be quoting scripture.
If the argument is about the neighborhood going to the pits, then fine, they should protest. However, it looks like the guy got the liquor license at the house as a first step in his business. It makes no sense to commit to a lease of a space etc., if you can't get a liquor license.
Add to that, I don't think he'd be selling bottles of the stuff out of his house. It looks to me like a wholesale business in the making, not a retail one.
That being said, if people in the community have a problem with this, then they should do something about it without misusing the Scriptures.
It's kinda like people on the Amazing Race praying for God to help them find a clue...
Posted by Uncle Elvis on 22.11.05 at 11:37
Lets all go to the Pickled Onion again and discuss this indepth! Hopefully we can sample this new fire water and try it out in a few Molotov cocktails to see if the product really is a dangerous weapon.
Posted by Big Bad Wolf ^..^ on 22.11.05 at 11:46
"Christianity was always - from the time of Christ - first and foremost a choice."
If you lived in Spain around 1500 the choice was simple...convert or be burned at the cross.
Posted by ace on 22.11.05 at 11:53
Jake,
Well said, in both posts.
Posted by silencedogood on 22.11.05 at 11:53
I didn't expect a kind of Spanish Inquisition!
Posted by Slowhand on 22.11.05 at 12:24
I agree with the comments about Colin Lee. He sacrificed his life to spread peace and love through his Christian ministry. He was a martyr and should be given some award.
As for the guy selling liquor out of his house, those protesters should have done better research on what they were protesting.
Posted by Onion on 22.11.05 at 12:26
I had a bad experience with absinthe once.
Bloody bible thumpers, the reason I can't buy a bottle of wine on a Sunday to take ot friends house for dinner.
Posted by sandgrownan on 22.11.05 at 12:38
""Christianity was always - from the time of Christ - first and foremost a choice."
If you lived in Spain around 1500 the choice was simple...convert or be burned at the cross.
Posted by ace on 22.11.05 at 11:53 "
Ace, Christianity forced upon anyone in this fashion is not Christianity.
Posted by Onion on 22.11.05 at 12:38
It always strikes me as funny that these religious jerk-offs will raise hell over a kid who whats to bring in a few cases of booze to sell, but will never speak out on the evils of something like what's going on at Berkley. I hope that kid knows somebody who knows somebody with pull in the PLP, because he'll never get that license if the government think they will offend the religious right by giving him one.
Posted by 44-40 on 22.11.05 at 12:52
As Jake implies this isn't really a function of being religious or having faith, more a function of being a narrow minded bigot. As a Christian I hope membership of the latter group does not always infer membership of the former.
Posted by Monsignor Treeb Lopez on 22.11.05 at 13:03
Jake,
I fully agree with your assesment of what Christianity should be. How sad that organised religion have for years on end pushed scripture to validate their own agenda.
This time though I think we have a group of over zealous tub thumpers who just don't want this in their neighborhood.
They have the right to speak their mind BUT they should choose their vehicle of delivery a little more carefully.
Posted by charles on 22.11.05 at 13:11
Ace, Christianity forced upon anyone in this fashion is not Christianity.
True....it's called Catholicism. ;-)
....and Slowhand stole my punchline.
lol.
Posted by ace on 22.11.05 at 14:20
I think there is a social issue at stake which is not receiving any attention. It is hard in Bermuda to be a young, independent entrepreneur with little family wealth. But this kid pursuing the most basic route into busines that could lead later prosperity and the attainment of more 'legitimate' business of his own. He has very little in terms of resources: an education, family suppor and minimal money, but most impiortantly he has initiative. This should be enough to get him started - but we seem to think that he needs expensive retail space and to jump over hurdles. On this site we bemoan expensive social policies that have made little difference - but isn't this the best social policy availible: a job? Give the kid a break while he still has some initiative to shape his life through his own actions. If you don't he'll likely be painting roofs or a bank teller - not what he wants, and not what bermuda needs more of.
Posted by tilti on 22.11.05 at 14:21
"nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition!"
Posted by Slowhand on 22.11.05 at 14:29
Our chief weapon is surprise...surprise and fear...fear and surprise.... Our two weapons are fear and surprise...and ruthless efficiency.... Our *three* weapons are fear, surprise, and ruthless efficiency...and an almost fanatical devotion to the Pope.... Our *four*...no... *Amongst* our weapons.... Amongst our weaponry...are such elements as fear, surprise.... I'll come in again.
Posted by sandgrownan on 22.11.05 at 14:36
tilti,
I certainly agree with you.
I don't think anyone is bemoaning this guy for trying. I think we all got his back on this one.
Posted by Uncle Elvis on 22.11.05 at 14:38
tilti - we're talking alchohol here. There are laws (I assume) that make it restrictive as to how, where, why and when it can be stored and sold. Not for nothing but Goslings could save a lot of money if they just stored their hooch in their employee's garages.
The kid either sells T-shirts or postcards or he gets a legit facility. If I were his parent I wouldn't want to have to deal with all the issues of storing restricted products in my house. Who knows when someone's going to figure out it's easier to break into the kid's stash of Triple Chilled Ice Wine in the middle of the day when everyone's away.
Posted by SmokingGun on 22.11.05 at 14:39
ah..SmokingGun, you assume too much. The article doesn't say he's going to be storing anything at his house. It will be the registered address of his business, nothing more. It's just the fundy's ruining everybody elses day again.
Posted by sandgrownan on 22.11.05 at 14:43
"Who knows when someone's going to figure out it's easier to break into the kid's stash"
Yes, wasn't it nice of the gazette to give out his address. Maybe the thieves will be put off by the protesting religious fanatics holding vigil outside his house.
Posted by Yet Another Limey on 22.11.05 at 14:44
Well Ok then....never mind....... but but if he does intend to......
Posted by SmokingGun on 22.11.05 at 14:47
the address would have been readily available due to the application......
Posted by Slowhand on 22.11.05 at 14:48
Ah, see they're winning. The fundy's have got us squabling amongst ourselves!
Posted by sandgrown on 22.11.05 at 14:49
"tilti - we're talking alchohol here"
what makes booze so distinct, it is still a legitimate business to deal in and all the regulations surrounding it are ridiculous and act only to raise the price of the prodcut. A look at any European city will reveal that thy way we treat alchohol as contraband substance is somewhat absurd.
As well, why are we all assuming that he is importing absyinth and moonshine. Would the same problem be there if it was revealed that he was sellling vintage port?
Posted by tilti on 22.11.05 at 14:52
The church lobby is a very powerful one and the examples I gave of current law stem directly from such actions. Churches are not permitted to conduct certain political (or profit making) activites in the US and the US government has one check on US churches that Bermuda churches don't - if they engage in certain political or profitable work they lose their tax exempt status. Here we have no such check on the churches and, as a result, have many more laws or bans on behaviours due to secular influence. There's a reason that the separation of church and state is a founding principle of the US and other western demoncracies... on the whole, after all it's a myth that our laws were based on the laws of the Bible - pagan law is the basis for our laws today (I think most of the 10 commandments are ignored or contradicted in law today)... and the equal rights amendment for gays was not tabulated for debate by the government because of church influences and fear...we seem to be more influenced politically by church dogma than either the US or Europe. George Bush justifies a hell of a lot of his otherwise hard-to-justify behaviour on his religious viewpoints and P is following suit... it's really the last line of defense when all other reasoning fails...
Posted by Nicolette on 22.11.05 at 15:05
"why are we all assuming that he is importing absyinth"
Does anyone know what he is planning on bringing in?
My guess would be every rapper's favourite 'Crystal'. It would have a good margin and could sell well on the island.
Posted by Yet Another Limey on 22.11.05 at 15:06
Them's the rules tilti. The number one thing one needs to learn about going into business is that it's not always so easy as to just set up shop in your bedroom and the whole world just says yeah ok, go for.
Extrapilating on your opinion on the treatment of achohol I will assume you would be in favour for everyone to just be able to open a gin mill in their bedroom. (Which in of itself isn't a bad idea.) But you have to protect the consumer so they put rules in place for all to abide by.
And sometimes it is costly.
Posted by SmokingGun on 22.11.05 at 15:07
Tilti - assuming he's importing absinthe, no, hoping, yes as I quite enjoy it now and then
Uncle E - if it was AA protesting it would be an imposter using the name as AA has no political agenda...
Posted by Nicolette on 22.11.05 at 15:09
Smoking Gun's position is typical. It's ok as long as rich people like the Goslings bring alcohol. But if someone rocks the boat in Bermuda shoot them down. Let the kid sell absyinth(which it probably is seeing as its gain a kind of following in the U.S. and Canada in the last couple of years), if he's successful I'm sure Goslings of someone else will start bringing it in and put him out of business. And you won't here Smoking Gun complaining then.
Posted by 44-40 on 22.11.05 at 15:17
Nicollette, the separation of church and state in the US was put in place to protect the church from the state, not so much the reverse. The majority of the founding fathers of the US were Christian and the laws that most western democracies employ are based on old testament law, notwithstanding the fact that many of the 10 commandments are no longer law. The right to a fair trial, bearing false witness, do not murder, do not steal, do not lie (perjury), etc all stem from the Bible. That is not to say other cultures do not recognise these ideals. Obviously in modern times more "pagan" ideals play a greater role in law making but the basis is still, for the most part rooted in Christianity. In an attempt to be politically correct many historians and political commentators seem to ignore this fact. However, I would agree that the form of government we employ is based on Greek and Roman models which were not Christian.
Posted by Onion on 22.11.05 at 15:30
"But you have to protect the consumer so they put rules in place for all to abide by.
And sometimes it is costly."
Posted by SmokingGun on 22.11.05 at 15:07
You mean "sometimes you have to protect the government's right to tax. And sometimes it is costly." That is all liquor licenses are--government controlling commerce and its income. There is no consumer protection issue involved with importing legal alcohol.
Posted by H Reardon on 22.11.05 at 15:35
Omg the Harry potter film was boycott on premise of promoting witchcraft lmao hahahahaha
Jesus Christ we have it bad. The Church Lobby makes me laugh really. Where are they when it comes to confronting crack and heroin dealers? No where to be found. Yet one young man that brings in alcohol a legal drug and they swarm him.
I honestly think I would have started breaking bottles round their feet in a fine example of uncivilized manner.
Posted by Ethiops on 22.11.05 at 15:36
44-40 - if you only knew. Maybe then you'd have a 20-20 view.
I have absolutly no problem with the small guy trying to compete with the established businesses. And I've put my money where my mouth is on many occasion to help the small guys. But I do think it's a little ridiculous to think anyone who's trying to build a serious business should ignore or even try to avoid doing it according to the laws of the land. If it doesn't get you fined it could put you in jail. We are not talking diapers here.
If I were the kid I'd be the first in line trying to get a grant from the government to set up shop in North Hamilton. I'd then get on my bike and find me a small little space that I could lease from an established company, maybe even a liqour store, and make sure all my permits were in order. If I really want to build the business quickly I'd even entertain calling on one of the major liqour importers, maybe even Goslings, and discuss the possibility of them repping my lines.
As far as Bermuda is concerned I have been very vocal about the fact that many of the businesses there would not be allowed to exist if there was any kind of antitrust laws similar to the US.
Posted by SmokingGun on 22.11.05 at 15:44