Pop quiz
What heinous act could possibly provoke comments such as:
“As Christians, we must stand for righteous living, and we must bring back some Godly order to our society.”
Or
“We don’t want to give the enemy a foothold as we know that he comes to steal, kill and destroy.”
Or
“Pray, pray, pray.”
The murder of Bermudian missionary Colin Lee? The decision of a local church to knowingly hired a convicted paedophile, who subsequently abused a boy at that church? Or the news that an aspiring 21-year-old entrepreneur wants to bring in a few cases of a speciality liquor from Canada, to sell to local hotels?
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Wow... I'm stunned.
"If we keep quiet then we are only adding to the proliferation of alcohol in this community. As Christians, we must stand for righteous living, and we must bring back some Godly order to our society"
Just curious... what was Jesus' first miracle again?
"Righteous exalteth a nation: but sin is a reproach to any people"
Again... what would the sin be?
This is just plain weird.
I can see the other arguments, parking, increased traffic etc. as MAYBE being valid, but... wow... sinning?
Posted by Uncle Elvis on 21.11.05 at 23:23
Ridiculous!
I commend the young man for his enthusiasm and hope that it won't be crushed by the vocal minority!
Well stated Elvis!
Posted by Terry Cloth on 22.11.05 at 06:08
They should all drink up and be of Good Cheer;tis the season to be jolly.
Posted by Big Bad Wolf ^..^ on 22.11.05 at 07:21
I read the article in utter disbelief yesterday. The guy is not planning to sell it out of the house but needs the licence as that is where the business is based. What is the problem with these people?
Posted by Simon on 22.11.05 at 08:38
Oh come on Elvis..... we all know that was grape juice, not the evil spirits!!!
Posted by Slowhand on 22.11.05 at 08:46
Sounds like a lot of fuss over nothing, there must be more to this.
Do we know what the 'speciality liquor' is? He could be planning on selling meths to the homeless!
Do we know which churches/Christians are behind the e-mails? Could it be the same church the Goslings (or other compettitor) attends?
Or does he simply have an enemy (e.g. scorned ex-girlfriend) on the island going out of their way to destroy him for revenge?
Posted by Yet Another Limey on 22.11.05 at 09:03
Yet Another Limey... no offense but selling meths to homeless is hardly a reason to go into business to make money (his intended goal) and, really, it's all about sin and that's it. This is exactly why the slot machines were banned, why the issue of casinos has never really been considered - this is the kind of lobbying that many individuals in the church do very effectively and results in the government issuing laws to enforce the "rules" of the church to everyone and not just its members. Its why we never have any shops open on Sundays until 1pm....
Posted by Nicolette on 22.11.05 at 09:18
Nicolette, As he's planning to distribute his product through the hotels I doubt it's meths as well, my point was there must be more to this.
Posted by Yet Another Limey on 22.11.05 at 09:27
Now let's consider how religious extremism has benefited the world.
Hmmm.......still struggling with that one.
As far as I'm concerned people are entitled to their beliefs and opinions, but I have a serious aversion to them trying to impose such upon those around them.
That's the bheaviour of an extremist.
If an activity is legal, then presumably the wider community considers it acceptable. It should therefore be each individual's choice whether they wish to engage in it.
If a person chooses not to engage in an activity on religious grounds, more power to them. That's their right.
They should, however, respect the rights of others to do the oppposite.
Whenever I see people using religion and the citing of scriptures in this way it angers me, as it is merely a cynical attempt to manipulate by injecting emotion and politics an argument that can't be won rationally on its own merits.
Often this is at the expense of a reasonable, moderate and tolerant person, who is acting perfectly legitimately.
Ultimately, I suspect that the motives of the objecting party in this instance are really more to do with the environmental impact that commercial vehicles might have upon the traffic volumes along Pompano Beach Road.
A complaint on these grounds would be understandable. Aside from commercial traffic to the Pompano Beach Club (which incidentally has a liquor license) and a government facility at its far end, the road is very quiet (I am a former resident of the area).
However, if this is the case, then the use of religious arguments is even more offensive, as it would suggest to me that the principles and beliefs - around which so much importance is apparently being placed - are really nothing more than convenient tools that are being exploited for anything but religious purposes.
Posted by NoVote on 22.11.05 at 09:46
I personally find the churches in Bermuda to be making strange choices in the fights that they choose to take up.
Gambling in Casinos/Bars...NO WAY
Bingo at Church Hall... THATS OK
Businesses Selling Alcohol...NO WAY
Wine for Church/Communion... THATS OK
Break almost any Commandment Monday - Saturday
thats ok too, as long as you sing your soul out on Sunday.
Parishioners suffering in poverty while Ministers/Revs driving BMWs & Mercedes around the country; this last one really bothers me.
I hope St. Peter brings these points up at the Pearly Gates.
Posted by Two Cents on 22.11.05 at 09:56
Remember kids, these are the same bozo's that protested the first Harry Potter film on the grounds that it would promote witchcraft...based on that stupid fact alone, I am not even slightly shocked at this situation. Pass the fruit loops, please...
Posted by Adjustah on 22.11.05 at 10:25
I'd actually like to know what he's planning to import that's going to make hime money almost any "speciality" product (Boutique Wines, High-End Spirits, Unique Beers for Special Events) the major hotels either import themselves or special order through their exsisting suppliers. I find it hard to believe that he has found a product that a hotel would rather buy from him. I wish him luck, but I think he'll be disappointed with sales.
Posted by Two Cents on 22.11.05 at 10:28
Absinthe?
Posted by Adjustah on 22.11.05 at 10:33
I cannot say that I agree with them, but this is a free country and they are entitled to make their position known, as much as any of you are entitled to support him.
I doubt very seriously that this is a Goslings sponsored effort.
What I do believe is that it is a misguided effort on the behalf of residents who do not want to see their neighbourhood become a rat hole. We had a small grocery in our neighbourhood that sold wine and beer and guess what, people stood outside to drink it on the wall. Then came weed and later harder drugs for sale. Now we have hell to move the drug trade even though the small Grocery is long gone.
Personally, I think they have every right to make their own wishes known. If they were from MADD or AA would any of you be so against their right to protest?
I think anything that has any link to the Church gets blamed by those of you who have more of a problem with it than it has with you.
Posted by jake on 22.11.05 at 10:35
If you are going to deny this person an opportunity do it on the grounds that it is a residential area not zoned for business. While I do respect the religous lobby the statements I have read from them are way over the top even for Bermuda.
As Christians, we must stand for righteous living, and we must bring back some Godly order to our society,
We don’t want to give the enemy a foothold as we know that he comes to steal, kill and destroy
Pray, pray, pray
Sounds like the Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse are coming for a convention.
Posted by charles on 22.11.05 at 11:08
I have a tendency to agree with Jake on the "premise" of what types of products should be allowed to be sold out of peoples houses. Alchohol is a controlled substance and there probably are some clear laws as to how it's stored etc. The church may have gone a little over-board on their reaction but I wouldn't want every Tom, Dick and Jane setting up a liqour business out of their house. Rent a commercial space and operate like a legitimate business for god's sake. (Sorry, I just had to.)
As to Mr. Colin Lee. I think this man's family deserves the honour of a posthumous award of the highest order the country could possibly give. I'd even go along with a school name change if one was named after him. He is an inspiration to all those struggling to turn their lives around and become a giver rather than taker. I am proud to know he was a Bermudian.
Posted by SmokingGun on 22.11.05 at 11:16
Blessed are the cheesemakers.
Posted by ace on 22.11.05 at 11:26
Charles,
I am a Christian, but I would have to agree that there are brands of marketing getting mixed in with Christianity these days who will simply throw scripture at an issue and see what sticks.
Christianity was always - from the time of Christ - first and foremost a choice. WE should be welcoming people over to our side because they can see the good we are doing and wish to learn more. I am not so supportive of the angry activism that mascarades as Christian love currently.
Posted by jake on 22.11.05 at 11:33
"If they were from MADD or AA would any of you be so against their right to protest?"
If it were MADD or AA, they wouldn't be quoting scripture.
If the argument is about the neighborhood going to the pits, then fine, they should protest. However, it looks like the guy got the liquor license at the house as a first step in his business. It makes no sense to commit to a lease of a space etc., if you can't get a liquor license.
Add to that, I don't think he'd be selling bottles of the stuff out of his house. It looks to me like a wholesale business in the making, not a retail one.
That being said, if people in the community have a problem with this, then they should do something about it without misusing the Scriptures.
It's kinda like people on the Amazing Race praying for God to help them find a clue...
Posted by Uncle Elvis on 22.11.05 at 11:37
Lets all go to the Pickled Onion again and discuss this indepth! Hopefully we can sample this new fire water and try it out in a few Molotov cocktails to see if the product really is a dangerous weapon.
Posted by Big Bad Wolf ^..^ on 22.11.05 at 11:46
"Christianity was always - from the time of Christ - first and foremost a choice."
If you lived in Spain around 1500 the choice was simple...convert or be burned at the cross.
Posted by ace on 22.11.05 at 11:53
Jake,
Well said, in both posts.
Posted by silencedogood on 22.11.05 at 11:53
I didn't expect a kind of Spanish Inquisition!
Posted by Slowhand on 22.11.05 at 12:24
I agree with the comments about Colin Lee. He sacrificed his life to spread peace and love through his Christian ministry. He was a martyr and should be given some award.
As for the guy selling liquor out of his house, those protesters should have done better research on what they were protesting.
Posted by Onion on 22.11.05 at 12:26
I had a bad experience with absinthe once.
Bloody bible thumpers, the reason I can't buy a bottle of wine on a Sunday to take ot friends house for dinner.
Posted by sandgrownan on 22.11.05 at 12:38
""Christianity was always - from the time of Christ - first and foremost a choice."
If you lived in Spain around 1500 the choice was simple...convert or be burned at the cross.
Posted by ace on 22.11.05 at 11:53 "
Ace, Christianity forced upon anyone in this fashion is not Christianity.
Posted by Onion on 22.11.05 at 12:38
It always strikes me as funny that these religious jerk-offs will raise hell over a kid who whats to bring in a few cases of booze to sell, but will never speak out on the evils of something like what's going on at Berkley. I hope that kid knows somebody who knows somebody with pull in the PLP, because he'll never get that license if the government think they will offend the religious right by giving him one.
Posted by 44-40 on 22.11.05 at 12:52
As Jake implies this isn't really a function of being religious or having faith, more a function of being a narrow minded bigot. As a Christian I hope membership of the latter group does not always infer membership of the former.
Posted by Monsignor Treeb Lopez on 22.11.05 at 13:03
Jake,
I fully agree with your assesment of what Christianity should be. How sad that organised religion have for years on end pushed scripture to validate their own agenda.
This time though I think we have a group of over zealous tub thumpers who just don't want this in their neighborhood.
They have the right to speak their mind BUT they should choose their vehicle of delivery a little more carefully.
Posted by charles on 22.11.05 at 13:11
Ace, Christianity forced upon anyone in this fashion is not Christianity.
True....it's called Catholicism. ;-)
....and Slowhand stole my punchline.
lol.
Posted by ace on 22.11.05 at 14:20
I think there is a social issue at stake which is not receiving any attention. It is hard in Bermuda to be a young, independent entrepreneur with little family wealth. But this kid pursuing the most basic route into busines that could lead later prosperity and the attainment of more 'legitimate' business of his own. He has very little in terms of resources: an education, family suppor and minimal money, but most impiortantly he has initiative. This should be enough to get him started - but we seem to think that he needs expensive retail space and to jump over hurdles. On this site we bemoan expensive social policies that have made little difference - but isn't this the best social policy availible: a job? Give the kid a break while he still has some initiative to shape his life through his own actions. If you don't he'll likely be painting roofs or a bank teller - not what he wants, and not what bermuda needs more of.
Posted by tilti on 22.11.05 at 14:21
"nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition!"
Posted by Slowhand on 22.11.05 at 14:29
Our chief weapon is surprise...surprise and fear...fear and surprise.... Our two weapons are fear and surprise...and ruthless efficiency.... Our *three* weapons are fear, surprise, and ruthless efficiency...and an almost fanatical devotion to the Pope.... Our *four*...no... *Amongst* our weapons.... Amongst our weaponry...are such elements as fear, surprise.... I'll come in again.
Posted by sandgrownan on 22.11.05 at 14:36
tilti,
I certainly agree with you.
I don't think anyone is bemoaning this guy for trying. I think we all got his back on this one.
Posted by Uncle Elvis on 22.11.05 at 14:38
tilti - we're talking alchohol here. There are laws (I assume) that make it restrictive as to how, where, why and when it can be stored and sold. Not for nothing but Goslings could save a lot of money if they just stored their hooch in their employee's garages.
The kid either sells T-shirts or postcards or he gets a legit facility. If I were his parent I wouldn't want to have to deal with all the issues of storing restricted products in my house. Who knows when someone's going to figure out it's easier to break into the kid's stash of Triple Chilled Ice Wine in the middle of the day when everyone's away.
Posted by SmokingGun on 22.11.05 at 14:39
ah..SmokingGun, you assume too much. The article doesn't say he's going to be storing anything at his house. It will be the registered address of his business, nothing more. It's just the fundy's ruining everybody elses day again.
Posted by sandgrownan on 22.11.05 at 14:43
"Who knows when someone's going to figure out it's easier to break into the kid's stash"
Yes, wasn't it nice of the gazette to give out his address. Maybe the thieves will be put off by the protesting religious fanatics holding vigil outside his house.
Posted by Yet Another Limey on 22.11.05 at 14:44
Well Ok then....never mind....... but but if he does intend to......
Posted by SmokingGun on 22.11.05 at 14:47
the address would have been readily available due to the application......
Posted by Slowhand on 22.11.05 at 14:48
Ah, see they're winning. The fundy's have got us squabling amongst ourselves!
Posted by sandgrown on 22.11.05 at 14:49
"tilti - we're talking alchohol here"
what makes booze so distinct, it is still a legitimate business to deal in and all the regulations surrounding it are ridiculous and act only to raise the price of the prodcut. A look at any European city will reveal that thy way we treat alchohol as contraband substance is somewhat absurd.
As well, why are we all assuming that he is importing absyinth and moonshine. Would the same problem be there if it was revealed that he was sellling vintage port?
Posted by tilti on 22.11.05 at 14:52
The church lobby is a very powerful one and the examples I gave of current law stem directly from such actions. Churches are not permitted to conduct certain political (or profit making) activites in the US and the US government has one check on US churches that Bermuda churches don't - if they engage in certain political or profitable work they lose their tax exempt status. Here we have no such check on the churches and, as a result, have many more laws or bans on behaviours due to secular influence. There's a reason that the separation of church and state is a founding principle of the US and other western demoncracies... on the whole, after all it's a myth that our laws were based on the laws of the Bible - pagan law is the basis for our laws today (I think most of the 10 commandments are ignored or contradicted in law today)... and the equal rights amendment for gays was not tabulated for debate by the government because of church influences and fear...we seem to be more influenced politically by church dogma than either the US or Europe. George Bush justifies a hell of a lot of his otherwise hard-to-justify behaviour on his religious viewpoints and P is following suit... it's really the last line of defense when all other reasoning fails...
Posted by Nicolette on 22.11.05 at 15:05
"why are we all assuming that he is importing absyinth"
Does anyone know what he is planning on bringing in?
My guess would be every rapper's favourite 'Crystal'. It would have a good margin and could sell well on the island.
Posted by Yet Another Limey on 22.11.05 at 15:06
Them's the rules tilti. The number one thing one needs to learn about going into business is that it's not always so easy as to just set up shop in your bedroom and the whole world just says yeah ok, go for.
Extrapilating on your opinion on the treatment of achohol I will assume you would be in favour for everyone to just be able to open a gin mill in their bedroom. (Which in of itself isn't a bad idea.) But you have to protect the consumer so they put rules in place for all to abide by.
And sometimes it is costly.
Posted by SmokingGun on 22.11.05 at 15:07
Tilti - assuming he's importing absinthe, no, hoping, yes as I quite enjoy it now and then
Uncle E - if it was AA protesting it would be an imposter using the name as AA has no political agenda...
Posted by Nicolette on 22.11.05 at 15:09
Smoking Gun's position is typical. It's ok as long as rich people like the Goslings bring alcohol. But if someone rocks the boat in Bermuda shoot them down. Let the kid sell absyinth(which it probably is seeing as its gain a kind of following in the U.S. and Canada in the last couple of years), if he's successful I'm sure Goslings of someone else will start bringing it in and put him out of business. And you won't here Smoking Gun complaining then.
Posted by 44-40 on 22.11.05 at 15:17
Nicollette, the separation of church and state in the US was put in place to protect the church from the state, not so much the reverse. The majority of the founding fathers of the US were Christian and the laws that most western democracies employ are based on old testament law, notwithstanding the fact that many of the 10 commandments are no longer law. The right to a fair trial, bearing false witness, do not murder, do not steal, do not lie (perjury), etc all stem from the Bible. That is not to say other cultures do not recognise these ideals. Obviously in modern times more "pagan" ideals play a greater role in law making but the basis is still, for the most part rooted in Christianity. In an attempt to be politically correct many historians and political commentators seem to ignore this fact. However, I would agree that the form of government we employ is based on Greek and Roman models which were not Christian.
Posted by Onion on 22.11.05 at 15:30
"But you have to protect the consumer so they put rules in place for all to abide by.
And sometimes it is costly."
Posted by SmokingGun on 22.11.05 at 15:07
You mean "sometimes you have to protect the government's right to tax. And sometimes it is costly." That is all liquor licenses are--government controlling commerce and its income. There is no consumer protection issue involved with importing legal alcohol.
Posted by H Reardon on 22.11.05 at 15:35
Omg the Harry potter film was boycott on premise of promoting witchcraft lmao hahahahaha
Jesus Christ we have it bad. The Church Lobby makes me laugh really. Where are they when it comes to confronting crack and heroin dealers? No where to be found. Yet one young man that brings in alcohol a legal drug and they swarm him.
I honestly think I would have started breaking bottles round their feet in a fine example of uncivilized manner.
Posted by Ethiops on 22.11.05 at 15:36
44-40 - if you only knew. Maybe then you'd have a 20-20 view.
I have absolutly no problem with the small guy trying to compete with the established businesses. And I've put my money where my mouth is on many occasion to help the small guys. But I do think it's a little ridiculous to think anyone who's trying to build a serious business should ignore or even try to avoid doing it according to the laws of the land. If it doesn't get you fined it could put you in jail. We are not talking diapers here.
If I were the kid I'd be the first in line trying to get a grant from the government to set up shop in North Hamilton. I'd then get on my bike and find me a small little space that I could lease from an established company, maybe even a liqour store, and make sure all my permits were in order. If I really want to build the business quickly I'd even entertain calling on one of the major liqour importers, maybe even Goslings, and discuss the possibility of them repping my lines.
As far as Bermuda is concerned I have been very vocal about the fact that many of the businesses there would not be allowed to exist if there was any kind of antitrust laws similar to the US.
Posted by SmokingGun on 22.11.05 at 15:44
H Reardon - keeping it in context - I was referring to gin mills in the bedroom not legally imported spirits. But as for the tax thing. Yes you are right, it's for the purpose of collecting taxes but I suppose it's kind of important seeing as we live in a country that has no income tax. Got to pay for the re-hab center some how.
Posted by SmokingGun on 22.11.05 at 15:50
Firstly, I never listen to anything the church says. They should not be a part of such decisions. They've buggered it up for 2,000 years so far.
Second: Give the guys break. he isn't bringing in ciggies for Cliff's sake.
Posted by Da Vinci on 22.11.05 at 15:53
"Nicollette, the separation of church and state in the US was put in place to protect the church from the state, not so much the reverse."
-Onion-
Um... actually, no.
The pilgrims fled religious persecution, as did many, if not most of the early settlers.
Check out Wikipedias entry on it.
Posted by Uncle Elvis on 22.11.05 at 16:03
Absolutely ridiculous! In another society, people who could make (and believe) comments like that in reference to something as minor this, would be the same ones strapping bombs to their waists & looking for a public target.
It's not that people object that bothers me, but the hysterical reaction by a few religious zealots. You would think this young man's endeavours is about to spark Armageddon.
Posted by observer on 22.11.05 at 16:06
He's 21 and finishing college, and Smoking Gun wants him to find a space to rent. When I was done with University I had about $300 to my name. He in all likelyhood can't afford to rent or lease somewhere, were're not all trust fund babies like you obviously are Smoking Gun. It's you who cannot see because you live in the exclusive rich white world of Bermuda, which in all truth is the cause of a whole lot of the problems in Bermuda today
Posted by 44-40 on 22.11.05 at 16:17
Elvis, Onion,
You are both right. The pilgrims fled persecution because of a state religion. That's why the US has no official religion. This protects minority religions and the non-religious alike. It does not follow that religious individuals should not be allowed to participate in government or take political stands based on their morals (religion-based or otherwise).
To suggest otherwise is ridiculous. It would leave government as the exclusive playground of immoral, dishonest, kleptocrats...oops.
Posted by silencedogood on 22.11.05 at 16:20
"...exclusive rich white world of Bermuda..."
Why does it always have to come back to this?
You had me up until this point.
Posted by Uncle Elvis on 22.11.05 at 16:24
Aren't we getting away from the actual situation here? The article indicated that nothing will be stored at his home and that everything will be delivered straight from the dock.
What's wrong with that? He'll receive checks and invoices at his house and probably have documents on a computer. The government can inspect his garage or put in a license clause immediately revoking the license if any liquor is stored on his premises. They could require he rent a storage locker and not import quantities larger than its capacity.
I could see the objection to liquor at the house, but that doesn't seem to be the case.
Posted by silencedogood on 22.11.05 at 16:26
Trust someone to bring this down to race. 44-40 , give me a break.
Bible thumping nutjobs have us all arguing about the rights & wrongs of this young chaps efforts to start a business. It might not be the best way, but to bring race into just becasue you think he should take a different tack is as stupid, as..well..being a bible thumping nutjob who complained in the first place.
Posted by sandgrown on 22.11.05 at 16:26
40-40 why in the world would you make such an assumption that I was a trust fund baby? Why in the world would you assume I live in the rich white world of Bermuda. Is it because I simply point out that someone choosing to deal in a restricted substance might have an issue if he's trying to do it out of his house?
BTW, last time I checked the guy who's going to tell him if he can or can't was a black guy so I think you are stretching it a little unless you are simply wanting to try to turn this whole thing into a race thing. Which would be a pretty lame way to go.
Posted by SmokingGun on 22.11.05 at 16:36
Elvis,
Ithough he had you at "Hello"?
;-)
Posted by jake on 22.11.05 at 16:41
Elvis,
The strict purpose of the establishment clause of the First Amendment was never to require a strict neutrality between religion and nonreligion. It was designed to prevent Congress from establishing a national church, from designating a particular faith or sect above the rest. The US Supreme Court ruled that the Constitution "affirmatively mandates accomodation, not merely tolerance of all religions, and forbids hostility towards any."
When the Congress approved wording of First Amendment its members declared a national day of prayer and thanksgiving.
Every US President has taken oath of office by putting hand on the Bible.
The Supreme Court begins every session with proclamation "God save the United States and this honourable court."
All currency bears motto, "In God we trust."
Pledge of allegiance states, "one nation under God."
Declaration of Independence reads, "All men ...are endowed by their Creator, with unalienable rights.."
George washington proclaimed a Thanksgiving with religious overtones.
Legislative prayers have been upheld by US Supreme Court.
etc etc etc.
(see "Liberty" July/August 2005)
Posted by Onion on 22.11.05 at 16:42
Silencedogood - you are totally correct. If he's shipping from the docks then he should have no problems as long as his permits are in order. Running the business from the house is totally different from using it as warehouse. If the church knew that is how it was to be set up and run then they really do need to take a chill pill.
Posted by SmokingGun on 22.11.05 at 16:44
Onion / Uncle Elvis,
Technically both of your arguements are quite correct
YES - When the Pilgrims left Plymouth they were fleeing what they thought to be religious persecution circa 1620.
AND YES - In the 1770's when the "founding fathers" penned the Delarartion of Independence, the nation had certainly become much more religious hence; the Pledge of Allegiance, the Declaration of Independence , etc all have religious overtones.
p.s I wouldn't imagine he'd be importing "every rapper's fav" Cristal Champagne as that particular Champagne House "Louis Roederer" is already represented in Bermuda by Bristol Cellars/Hand Arnold... I would hope he would have at least done that much research.
Posted by Two Cents on 22.11.05 at 16:58
First, you said "put in place". That would indicate that the initial idea behind it was...
Notice the second word in "First Amendment" is... well... Amendment.
Separation of church and state has turned into protection of the church from the state (i.e. the people), but it was put in place to protect the people from the church.
Second,
YAAY! I have an Arch-Enemy!
Superman gets Lex Luthor, Batman gets the Riddler. Heck, even the Green Goblin was a scientist.
Why couldn't I get a smart one?
Posted by Uncle Elvis on 22.11.05 at 17:00
Actually, the "Under God" in the Pledge of Allegience wasn't added until the 50s
Ok.. I'm off
Catcha laters
Posted by Uncle Elvis on 22.11.05 at 17:05
Americans love to hold up the Constitution as a sort of Bible of their own....nevermind the fact that all that talk about Liberty and Freedom was certainly not supposed to include the black population of the US at that time.
I like Dave Chapelle's take on the framers of the American Constitution. He said that if he and some white boy were able to go back through time and happen to meet Thomas Jefferson, for example, walking down the street the white guy would be all happy and honored to meet such a historically important character. He would no doubt smile and go up to Mr. Jeffereson and shake his hand. Meanwhile Dave would be running down the street the opposite way...as he would be afraid to be identified as a runaway slave or something by a man who owned lots of them.
Posted by ace on 22.11.05 at 17:16
Concerning the separation of church and state in the US. The majority of the American Revolutions leaders were not Christians but Deists or Pantheists. Thomas Paine was paramount among them, and his views on religion are made explicit in Age of Reason. Thomas Jefferson was a close friend of Paines and shared many of his beliefs. The pledge of allegiance and the currency was changed in the 1950s and was a political decision to discredit (in their eyes) communist sympathisers and the USSR. Marxists are athesits, but not all communists are Marxists, but they do agree with secularism. One can be a Christian and a secularist at the same time - I believe this is what Jesus argued in his Render unto Ceaser saying. The individual citizen and the church are allowed their opinion. So are we. We either use it, and counter their arguments with reason or we surrender the ground and political arena to them. Nature and politics abhors a vacumn, and the fundamentalists are always willing to sieze the oppurtunity.
Posted by J Starling on 22.11.05 at 17:18
Onion
I was going to concede that perhaps the church/state separation was to protect both institutions but...and I am really asking... how in the past did the people or state harm the church? I had a very one sided eurocentric education in history and am fully aware that there's been a lot of persecution that I was never told about....
Good one - Jake's "had me at hello" reply to Uncle E....
Posted by Nicolette on 22.11.05 at 17:32
Its been a long day lets raise our glasses and toast Free enterprise.Ahhh thats better,another round for all on this thread..Amen!
Posted by Big Bad Wolf ^..^ on 22.11.05 at 17:47
If all of you are so interested in the seperation of church and state, why not do something about it in your country?
Religion should be your moral compass on which you should base your decisions on ethical behavior.
Having a secular government insulated from religous dictation is imperative if a country is to govern itself with equal regularity.
If your country would prosper from Casino's then it is imperative that your government weigh this option on it's own merits and NOT on RELIGOUS DOCTRINE.
This young man in question has sought out an opportunity to advance his future, whether or not it will work out is to be determined BUT he should not be thwarted by religous zealots that are truly mis-guided.
Posted by charles on 22.11.05 at 17:58
In response to Charles, there are people whoe oppose the theocracy that seems to rule this place. There is a small and growing group called the Society for a Secular Bermuda. It had an email account but that got email bombed, and I am unfortunately not a computer whiz able to prevent such attacks, nor do I (or others in the group) know how to set up websites for it that can be protected. Until those issues are resolved, all who support the idea of a secular Bermuda, please use your voice, be it here, in the letters to the editor, talkshows or whatever. Critical thought and open, fair debate are the only way to defeat fundamentalism (and government stupidity at that).
Posted by J Starling on 22.11.05 at 18:10
Religion as a moral compass - lol!
Posted by Simon on 22.11.05 at 18:12
Religion is used as mind control for those that cannot find their own way.
Posted by Big Bad Wolf ^..^ on 22.11.05 at 21:50
No, we cannot have alcohol sales from a home. OMG what is this world coming to???....The name of the booze does not have Goslings and is not being imported by Gibbons... so, it cannot, must not happen.
He is going to destroy Bermuda. What is next, cigarette sales? This must not happen, cannot happen.
Our worst fears are Halloween when he will give small bottles to neigbourhood trick or treaters!
Hmmm, I don't this world is coming to???
Posted by island dweller on 22.11.05 at 21:53
as a person friend of mr. simons, i think that this is a whole lot of fuss over nothing. he's simply trying to make something of his college education. if the whole fuss is because he's using his residence as the headquarters of his business, i think his neighbours are being ridiculous. he, of course, would not be storing the liquor there but in a storage compartment. i think its horrible that people are attacking him just because he's trying to make some money!! alcohol is in high demand in bermuda, face it, half the island are alcoholics! not only is his decision smart, but i think he's going to profit from it. if he doesnt, a lesson learned. but instead of selling drugs illegally from his house (which i'm sure he'd make more money doing), he's sought out a legal way to profit from bermudian's love to party! hats off to jermaine, he's a good guy and i wish him all the luck in the world.
Posted by bda youth on 23.11.05 at 10:16
Bda youth - I am in total agreement with what you state. In fact now that there has been a "buzz" created about this I think he should capitalize on it quickly. If I were a liqour store owner I would have called him by now, offered him a small space to store his product on consignment and gotten the word out as to just what it is the fuss is all about and where to get it.
And maybe I'd even have a little kick-off event and raise a little donation for the church.....
Posted by SmokingGun on 23.11.05 at 11:47
Nicolette asks,
"and I am really asking... how in the past did the people or state harm the church?"
As Uncle Elvis said, the pilgrims who fled England were fleeing religious persecution. They wanted to ensure this would not happen again.
General question for the blog.
Why do the same people who complain about the so-called "bigotry" of the Church exercise such bigotry against the Church. I am a Christian and I go to Church but I have said nothing to criticize anyojne who does not share my belief.
Now just read some of the comments above.
Posted by Onion on 23.11.05 at 12:59
Onion, I think it may be that, when they refer to "The Church", or "The Church Lobby", they aren't referring to the everyday people that go to church and worship the Lord and enjoy the fellowship of their brothers and sisters under God.
I think they're referring to people in the church that use it to further their own selfish goals, taking the Lord's name in vain (isn't there a rule against that?) to make people feel guilty about something they're doing, misquoting the Bible, or taking sections out of context, or outright lying, but falling back behind Scripture to justify their own selfish actions.
Unfortunately, there are a LOT of people like this and, unfortunately, they a whole lot more vocal than your good self and thus become the "face" of the church, y'know?
They wrap themselves up in "The Church" and sanctimoniously decide what is "right" and "wrong", vilifying anyone that disagrees or disobeys.
I don't think anyone's shown bigotry against the Church. Complained, yes, but not shown bigotry.
Like I always say, it's not the religion that's the problem, it's the assholes.
Posted by Uncle Elvis on 23.11.05 at 13:47
Onion - yes but besides the debauched members of the Hellfire club in England who helped colonize the USA by persecuting the purtian pilgrims...that's the only example I did know (and I can promise that I didn't learn that in English boarding school and ironically my school was in Wycombe....)... any others?
As for your question, I have no problem with the church as long as it does not interfere with my civil rights and liberties... when it starts dictating how we spend our leisure time, when we can open and close our businesses etc, then I activate... in the instances where I believe it is holding Bermuda back (like we can't even do a government sponsored feasibility study on the economic and other impact of casinos, equal rights for gays etc...) well... I wish to block that interference. When I do attend a church service I am there for a reason and the reason is never politics.... I don't want to hear politics in the sermon either....just spirituality or hellfire and damnation :)
Another problem is that the church is being blamed for the actions of its members in this case - however, if the church sanctions and encourages those actions then it should take the heat.
Posted by Nicolette on 23.11.05 at 14:26
"however, if the church sanctions and encourages those actions then it should take the heat."
Now THERE is a good point! I hadn't thought of that. You're absolutely right!
Posted by Uncle Elvis on 23.11.05 at 14:44
Nicolette, do you mean just in the US or anywhere else in the world? Religious persecution has been around since the beginning of time. It still exists. Look at China.
Re the liquor license, my understanding was that it was a few individuals who happen to go to church who were against this entrepeneur. Are churches banding together against him?
Posted by Onion on 23.11.05 at 14:56
I guess I was asking about supposedly "free" nations, Onion. I am so used to the reports of the "church" being an oppressive hypocrite and perhaps that statement alone validates what you say...recent events with viatical claims crippling re/insurers and the media attention on the Catholic institution do dispel sympathy for the entire instiution that is the church.
Posted by Nicolette on 23.11.05 at 15:12
In this particular case, where it appears to be an independent initiative of grasroots fundamentalists, well, they are free to argue what they want, and the secularists are free to counter the arguments. It is only when the state begins pontificating to the people, legitimising only one faith, or one interpretation (be it Anglicanism, Islam or Soviet Atheism)that democracy is threatened. The State must be agnostic and let its citizens believe what they want freely on their own time. It is not that one is bigoted against the church, one only wishes to protect democracy. Curiously, Bermuda had its own puritans who were exiled from here and went off to colonise the Bahamas (Eleuthura colony) instead. As per the Vatican - each church is free to make its own rules as per their interpretation and enforce these rules within reason (excommunication yes, stake burning no), but they should not use state apparautus to do so.
Posted by J Starling on 23.11.05 at 15:31
Nicolette, there are many religions. Some have been oppressive and wicked and some have been a vessel for good. Some have oppressed and some have been oppressed. The Catholic Church oppressed many during the Sapnish Inquisition. China presently persecutes Christians. Many Muslims are being persecuted in the US today. The Taliban were oppressive to people in Afghanistan.
Posted by Onion on 23.11.05 at 15:33
In many respects, religion is a control mechanism used by those with power to further their own ends. This is shown across all religions and goes back to the depths of time.
How many religions can be said to have done nothing but good?
Posted by Simon on 23.11.05 at 18:48
With respect to whether our laws are based on pagan or religous roots, read "Pagan Christ", there is no difference between the two. Modern day religion owes more of its structure to pagan rituals than to the bible.
With respect to seperation of church and state. Regardless of its constitution the U.S. has a huge problem given the increasing power of the Moral Majority and other such right wing religous organizations. Read the article on the Rapture in this month's Vanity Fair and you will have a tingle up your spine. Its very easy to see what zealots their are in Islamic countries, the U.S. has an equally scary share of fundamentalist zealots.
Of topic given our problems in this little island perhaps, but if you can see a country the size of the U.S. being driven by religion it isn't hard to see how easy it is for it to happen hear.
Anywhere it happens its bad bad bad.
Posted by Intrigued on 23.11.05 at 20:01