Human rights and the Bermuda Regiment

The Bermuda Regiment was criticised in the British parliament yesterday, during a debate on the Armed Forces Bill.

Labour MP Andrew MacKinlay pointed to Bermuda’s compulsory national service for men as indicating the existence of gender discrimination. In addition, he alleged that

“…those who refuse to serve are not just arrested but taken in chains, United States-style, in jumpsuits, and with both their feet and arms in manacles. I find that humiliating, and it is contrary to our obligations, particularly under the European convention on human rights.”

Is there any truth to that?

Comments

[loki on 13.12.05 at 10:29]

"Is there any truth to that?"

Sounds like complete bollocks to me. Jumpsuits a la Guantanamo Bay? Shackles? Someone's watched 'Air Con' a few too many times, methinks. I've certainly seen conscripts arrested, but not anything as dramatic as that description.

[Nicolette on 13.12.05 at 10:37]

The most egregious acts I've heard of (and seen evidence of) is the forced shaving off of dreadlocks of conscientious objectors...courtesy of Col Burch et al....

[It Does Matter on 13.12.05 at 10:38]

I dont think the Guantanamo Bay style description is all that important. I think one question needs answering, namely:

DOES THE BERMUDA REGIMENT'S POLICY OF MANDATORY ENLISTMENT FOR MEN ONLY FALL FOUL OF THE UNITED KINGDOM'S OBLIGATIONS UNDER THE ECHR?

The rest is only collateral. Refusees are arrested by the regiment and placed in ankle manacles. Possible. Refusees are handcuffed. Likely. Refusees are dressed in orange jumpsuits. Also possible -- afterall they are prisoners.

[spoint on 13.12.05 at 10:39]

loki,

When did oyu do your time in the regiment?

[It Does Matter on 13.12.05 at 10:46]

I take the view that shaving the heads of rastafarians violates human rights obligations. But I do not think Colonel Burch should be forced to balance the weight of the practice on his shoulders. The shaving was "regimental" not "individual".

Some people cannot defer a single opportunity to lay blame on the persons they dislike.

There are many issues concerning the regiment which are archaic, discriminatory and downright oppressive.

[loki on 13.12.05 at 10:56]

"loki,

When did oyu do your time in the regiment?"

I was never called as I was in the police when I became eligible for conscription. It does sound like bollocks, though. Maybe Adjustah or Combat Banker, both of whom served relatively recently, can confirm or deny said bollocks.

[Full Fullish on 13.12.05 at 10:57]

To my knowledge, I have never seen anyone in the regiment in manacles and chains. I have only ever seen the RP's either take people out of the building allowing them to walk freely, or in handcuffs (metal or plastic zip cords).

Prisoners in the regiment are, or at least were, required to wear an orange jump suit as they performed tasks such as picking up cigarette butts and the likes, until they have done their penance and can rejoin the ranks with their fellow enlistees.

I think the article is grossly exaggerating things. I have no issue with the jump suits or people being taken away in handcuffs for not showing up. It's the law, it's their civil duty and they are shirking it. They should be bloody fortunate that it is ONLY the Bermuda Regiment and they aren't living in some place like Israel, where war of prominent.

[observor on 13.12.05 at 10:58]

To the best of my knowledge when the Regiment goes out into the public domain to track down dodgers they do bind the feet and arms of apparent offenders in manacles. Upon their return to camp they are provided with orange jump suits and put in cells. Typically they are not manacled again unless they are taken off site for whatever reason (court appearance or medical mainly). Coincidentally, much like our Westgate population, their life while behind bars is quite comfortable (save for the crappy conditions of the actual cells) with ready supplies of weed provided by unchecked visitors (who seem to come and go as they please, especially when there is no formal camp in session) which is often shared with their guards.

[Desperado on 13.12.05 at 11:00]

'I do not think Colonel Burch should be forced to balance the weight of the practice on his shoulders. The shaving was "regimental" not "individual".'

You're only half right, I'm afraid. The practice might have been Regimental policy at the time (although I have grave doubts about that). The manner in which the shearing was carried out - in the parade ground with press cameras invited to photograph the conscripts' humiliation - was Col. Burch's initiative.

'Some people cannot defer a single opportunity to lay blame on the persons they dislike.'

In which case the courts in both Bermuda and the UK must have disliked Col. Burch as well. The conscientious objectors were eventually awarded the highest amount of damages ever paid out in either Bermuda OR the UK for what they were subjected to.

[Full Fullish on 13.12.05 at 11:00]

IDM - "There are many issues concerning the regiment which are archaic, discriminatory and downright oppressive."

Such as?

[bucky on 13.12.05 at 11:04]

The regiment is not mandatory for EVERYONE, only those who'se parents can't get them out...mostly the upper white classes.

Somehow, I doubt loki was in the police services...but it's a good cover, allowing him to comment on something he knows nothing about.

Why can't a Bermudian concientiously object to being trained to kill?
What good is Bermudas regiment...besides tourist entertainment?
The last time they were called for riot duty, half didn't show up because they were rioting...we had to rely on the British military to 'save' us.

[loki on 13.12.05 at 11:13]

"Somehow, I doubt loki was in the police services...but it's a good cover, allowing him to comment on something he knows nothing about."

Nice, complete lack of logic. How does being in the police service at the time make my comment (which was only that it 'sounds like bollocks')any more or less credible? It doesn't; I was providing an explanation as to why I wasn't called. And I most certainly was in the police at the time, thanks very much. Also, if you think I'me in any way sympathetic to the regiment - which your post implies - you couldn't be more wrong: I fundamentally disagree with conscription, especially as women are not subject to it in Bermuda. Any other accusations you'd like to throw out there?

[Full Fullish on 13.12.05 at 11:22]

Bucky - "The regiment is not mandatory for EVERYONE, only those who'se parents can't get them out...mostly the upper white classes."

Are you suggesting that the white upper class aren't called to join cause of who they are? Man talk about your stretches. I know of two people who come from white upperclass backgrounds who were called up just like I was.

I used to sound just like you before I was called up. A Bermudian can object to being trained to kill, and if provides truth of his words, has in the past been defered, or been moved into an area of the regiment that is "non lethal" (Christ I"m almost laughing here), such as the kitchens, office, etc. The regiment, aside for tourist amusement, also provides services in time of need, such as a hurricane. Their training is for internal defense only, and while yes we need assistance from outside sources during the 70's riots, the regiment as matured a lot since then.

When were you in the regiment again?

[Nicolette on 13.12.05 at 11:24]

It Does Matter.... et al means "and others" in abbreviated Latin - I simply didn't name the other officers as I don't know their names - besides - the "only following orders" defense failed at Nuremburg and has not been viable since....what happened to change "it doesn't matter" to "it does matter" ....

[loki on 13.12.05 at 11:27]

Actually, Fullish, I can't think of a single case where someone was able to use mommy and daddy's influence to get out of the regiment. Plenty of guys with whom I went to highschool, who could be described as coming from white, affluent families, served their time in the regiment. If someone can provide an example of such influence-peddling, I'd be interested to hear it.

[Full Fullish on 13.12.05 at 11:27]

Desparado - It is regimental policy for men to have a short haircut and woment to have their hair pinned up and under dress (hat).

The media circus created around the conscript getting his dreads removed was done by Burch and was completely wrong. Burch was a crap CO in my opinion. I also think that the media shouldn't be allowed on or near regimental grounds during the 2 week training camp every year.

[Two Cents on 13.12.05 at 11:42]

I'd have to agree with Loki, I can think of quite a few of my friends (high school & college) who would without a doubt be best decribed as being from white, affluent families who did their time in the Regiment.

When I was called, I had already done 3+ years in the Police Reserves and my call up was no longer manditory. I probably should have done my time in the regiment but at the time I was 21 and not interested in what the Regiment had to offer as the Police Reserves seemed much more interesting.

You can tell who has "done their time" (Police, Regiment etc) and who either didn't get called or managed to weasel out of their civic duty.

[jake on 13.12.05 at 11:57]

Labour MP Andrew MacKinlay has responsibility for his own constituency and arguably Britain as a whole.

I think we are able as a people to decide if we want conscription (the population does want it) and who will do the work (men who have served and women in general agree that men should do it - and they outnumber those who say women should too).

For those who have genuine objection the constitution makes provision for their conscientious objection. It must be genuine, which means it is subject to test.

For those who are basically part of our lazy, bone-idle, population who do not want to turn up, they get arrested and treated as law breakers because they are breaking the law.

The situation is not perfect, because a person with less education is less likely to be able to make a cogent argument that they fall within the constitutional exception. The wealthy people are more likely to be able to set it up.

Surprisingly, however, you will find a number of educated wealthy (both black and white) people who do serve. They don't like it, but they get on with it. Once it is done, they often will reflect positively on it, and are supporters of the next generation doing their part.

I know some of you will say they were brain washed - but I doubt it. They are able to form an opinion which is in support of the Regiment because of what they themselves have seen.

More than I can say for Labour MP Andrew MacKinlay.

[Nicolette on 13.12.05 at 11:57]

I know at quite a few cases of white priviliege when it comes to Regiment avoidance and I can't name names but I can give you all examples:

1) if your job is considered key and that it would be a hardship to go into regiment then you are exempted - therefore there are cases of wealthy white men being promoted very early in Daddy's company or Daddy's friends' companies - even to CEO in their twenties to get the
exemption. Herein began a huge sliding of standards in the work place that we still have not recovered from...use your imagination to figure out some of the individuals who used this trick

2) Simply staying off the island until you reach 35 whether it be working abroad - again some of us were sent away to on merit but many white men worked where they had family connections that could keep them employed and still afford to come home a lot more than the average entry-level office worker.

3) Many wealthy white men did the endless education route - do that and you get exempted every year until you finish

4) Again other professions such as doctors gained exemptions - the amount of Bermudian white madle doctors is disproportionate to the amount of non white ones given our demographics - no matter how brilliant you are -medical school requires lots of money and connections...NOTE this is NOT a deliberate regiment avoidance method-but more an example of white privilege on this island

3) Lots of bullshit asthma sufferers out there -I happen to have had it as a kid and when I'd hear people I knew exempted from Regiment because of asthma I'd query them on the latest treatments... clueless...again the prescribing doctor was a club and social buddy of the parents who got an "old boy network" favour granted

3) One exmaple which probably has nothing to do with avoiding regiment is as follows: white family connected via club memberships etc to CEO of huge worldwide (Bermuda-based) company - CEO hires useless son in US branch of comapny. Son really damn useless, boss wants to fire - executive order straight from CEO here's mouth -you cannot fire John Doe! Happens more often than it should.

I believe Rod Attride-Stirling successfully defended a conscientious objector case BUT again, unless lawyers would take this work pro bono, only the wealthy can avail themselves of the justice system to avoid service.

I know of one "40 thieves" kids who attended when he was called and he actually owns that it did him some good. He is the exception and not the rule of my generation.

[Full Fullish on 13.12.05 at 11:58]

2 Cents - "You can tell who has "done their time" (Police, Regiment etc) and who either didn't get called or managed to weasel out of their civic duty."

Ain't that the truth!

[jake on 13.12.05 at 12:01]

Actually, Fullish, I can't think of a single case where someone was able to use mommy and daddy's influence to get out of the regiment. - I sue can, but so what?

That was both black and white Mommy and Daddy's.

I know far more white guys from wealthy families who did serve, so I am not sure if your point is relevant.

[loki on 13.12.05 at 12:03]

"I believe Rod Attride-Stirling successfully defended a conscientious objector case BUT again, unless lawyers would take this work pro bono, only the wealthy can avail themselves of the justice system to avoid service."

Yes, his client was himself!

[Nicolette on 13.12.05 at 12:04]

Thatks for clarification Loki! Well then - he could afford his services LOL

[realtime on 13.12.05 at 12:18]

The Bermuda Regiment both a violation of human rights and a massive joke. Whenever you see that undersized little pissant who's in charge of it, I can't remember his name, on the news or quoted in the papers going on about how the regiment gives charecter he is talking BULLSHT. I did a year before I moved overseas and my brother is in it right now. There is so much weed smoking and drinking going on its ridiculus. An example, my brother had to go on an excerise by bus and he said it was so full of weed smoke the entire bus was basically hotboxed, and many times drinking goes on during these exercises as well. This is not made up but the truth All of the so called "officers" are idiots and wouldn't make it in a real army on a week of Sundays, and the Sergents are a bunch of drunks. I could probably write a couple of pages on how useless the regiment is but I'll leave it here.

[Somers on 13.12.05 at 12:26]

Too true - I know I am failing my next drug test thanks to those idiots.

[Full Fullish on 13.12.05 at 12:30]

Nicolette -

I had to work in the offices at the regiment (computer experience and all forced me to take that route against my will although I was out in the field on quite the occasion, more often than not). So believe me when I say I know and heard all of the excuses and what passed and what didn't.

1. Sure some people, both black and white, were able to avoid their call up due to key positions in the company. But this was rare. I know my boss tried it, yes I'm white, but believe me black people tried it equally as much. After some thought, I received a letter stating basically to suck it up and come on in, as with most people.

2. Sure you can simply stay off Island, but is it worth it? Really I mean, it's 3 years of very party time work, as opposed to 10 years in school or working abroad. Some people actually were legitimately in school for that long, power to them. Others, well hell, if you try hard enough anyone can weasel their ways out of anything, but is the end result and energy worth it? Anyone can find work abroad, not just white rich guys. Isn't it nice that at least people have an option to work abroad or stay in school when the regiment comes a calling instead of being forced home?

3. I covered this above.

4. Yes, do you know Dr. Moore who practiced here, was also the regimental doctor as well? This would also fall under, your point number 1, but it's a bit hard to suggest that someone like a doctor be called in for regiment if it conflicts with his or her rounds at the hospital. Um I can't do brain surgery today, I have regiment tonight. Jesus, this is just ridiculous! I"m not getting into demographics here as this is an aside topic, but aren't there scholarship programs out there?

Uh 5? All conscripts who have medical issues are subjected to the regimental doctor. Dr. Moore (when I was in) was not one to get around easily.

6? Not sure of the point you are attempting to make here or if you are really trying to make one.

"I know of one "40 thieves" kids who attended when he was called and he actually owns that it did him some good. He is the exception and not the rule of my generation."

This isn't the case with mine. Almost everyone I went to regiment with looks back with a bit of fondness. Sure it was a pain in the butt at times, a lot of times, but there was a sense of comradery with people that I never had met, or probably wouldn't have met if it wasn't for the regiment. To this day (almost 10 years later) we all still say "Hi" even though you may have forgotten their names. This happened as recently as yesterday for me. There is a reason why Two Cents said what he did in an early post. I've seen the regiment take real problem people and turn them into someone who no one would have ever guessed would amount to anything into someone with confidence and a leader of men, and that's both black and white. It's one of the side affects of regimental life, bridging the racial gap.

[the dude on 13.12.05 at 12:40]

I agree with realtime, he is telling why the regiment is such a waste of time. Everyone else seems to be debateing wither its your civic duty. I hope the Brits actually put there foot down and at the very least severly reform the regiment or get rid of it.

[Uncle Elvis on 13.12.05 at 12:46]

Wait. Let me get this straight.

It's only white guys that get out of the Regiment?
There's never been a black guy who "hurt" his back and got deferred? There's never been a black guy who stayed a couple of years extra at college to get out of Regiment? Or used the Bermuda College's Night Courses to stay out?
Come on. People have been skyving off of Regiment probably since its inception.
It's not a racial thing.
I understand that there is extra venom when children of priviledge get out, it doesn't seem fair when they have so much that they don't have to suffer the indignities of Regiment, but they are only part of those that don't go up.
In the interest of transparency, I've gotta say that I never went up. I have a very good reason that I don't think I have to go into because no-one really cares.
When I got called up, and had to do the medical thingie, there were four guys in knee braces limping around. Every single one of them was deferred. Guess where the knee braces went as soon as they got 'round the corner from Warwick Camp. That's right. Came off the legs and into the basket to be returned to wherever they got them. Oh, yeah... they weren't white.

I guess what I'm saying is:

For once, can we not make something a racial issue? Especially something like this where it really isn't one.

[Adjustah on 13.12.05 at 12:53]

Sigh.

Seriously?

Only "rich white people" get out of the Regiment?

So, VERY full of shit.

[Onion on 13.12.05 at 13:03]

Message to all.

The Bermuda Regiment never depended on any bleddy British Army in the 70s riots. They showed up after riots ended and sent us a bill. Know your history!!

[al-ghorab on 13.12.05 at 13:11]

I am in full support of the Regiment. I will admit that it needs a lot of reform (better equipment in the form of vehicles, weapons, night vision, and a lot more training), and that the fact that only males are called up is a problem. I personally would be all for a women battalion to be set up. Don't think it would be a good idea necessarialy to have all of them up at camp at the same time however, not right away at least. I also think that it is neccessary to incorporate more education into it, maybe making it a fulltime thing for two years and combine it with the Bda College - gurantee everyone has a GED and some technical training. They could even grow a lot of their own food and work on cleaning Morgans Point. I do believe that some of the upper class do get out of the Regiment, but there is a black upper class as well you know. Most of the upper class actually forms the officers, the middle class mostly makes up the sergeants and corporals, with the privates being mostly lower class. And when are they going to expand boats into a proper coastguard?

[Draft Dodger on 13.12.05 at 13:15]

My story for what it is worth is that I studied overseas and was called up every year (except one) from my 18th birthday onwards. Every year I had either my academic institution or employer write a letter to the Regiment confirming that I continued to be a full-time student/employee. On returning to the island (in October) I called the Regiment and said that I was home and asked what I should do. I was told to proceed as pervious years and wait to see if my name was in the paper. It was not and has never been since.

As a white guy perhaps to the outside world I qualify as either 2) or 3) on Nicolette's list but in reality the Regiment never factored in my decision either to work/study abroad or to return when I did. I am under 35 (just) so guess I could still technically be called. If I do get called I will attend without question or excuse.

Incidentally what age do they actually stop calling? I have heard multiple answers to the question.

[Nicolette on 13.12.05 at 13:16]

FF - when I said he is the exception - I meant that he is the only one of the privileged crowd that I actually know that did not "get out" of serving his time Regiment. My point is I know maybe 75 - 100 privileged sons who either did not get called or got out of serving. Yes,I know blacks too but there is a a huge disparity between the % of priviliged people who got out of serving and those who are not.

Also FF - I guess you never needed a scholarship - there are still loads of unpaid related education costs and the longer the program the more prohibitive it is for poorer people to afford the necessary education. My father could never have attended Harvard without a free scholarship and still had to work part time jobs to pay for books etc...I don't understand why peolple want to argue with facts that simply prove what we "know" already. And perhaps I should have stated that these were priviliged sons and not white but the simple fact is, it was the white old boy network that facilitated the exemptions and I have benefited from my association with it also in my life. However, I don't agree with it and now that I've grown up I like to do what I can to level the playing field. Unfortunately, spending time arguing here is not helping anyone so I'll stop.

Have a good day.

[NoVote on 13.12.05 at 13:27]

I guess that the threads above do address the question that the Limey posed at the end of his posting.

However, I personally think that the more interesting question is whether Bermuda should continue to permit gender discrimination such as this in its statutes, and whether the UK should require Bermuda to comply with its obligations under European human rights conventions.

[SmokingGun on 13.12.05 at 13:28]

1: Make the Bermuda Regiment legitimate. Make it a true force that people can make a career out of with proper pay, housing and benefits.
2: Create mandatory service for men and women for three years from the age of 18. (Specific amount of time given to community service must be done by all those that avoid regiment duty.)
3: Create an alliance with police and establish a coast guard to support enforcement of drug laws.
4: Create an alliance with fire and rescue services to train with and assist in major catastrophy situations.
5: Keep the shackles and manacles but change the colour of the jumpsuits to Bermuda Pink.

[Desperado on 13.12.05 at 13:32]

"The Bermuda Regiment never depended on any bleddy British Army in the 70s riots. They showed up after riots ended and sent us a bill. Know your history!!"

Well said. Just as a footnote, you might be interested to know that when the FCO presented Premier David Gibbons with the astronomical bill, he was prepared to pay it. When he told his Cabinet this Jim Woolridge, John Stubbs, Stan Ratteray and Harry Viera -- appalled by this development -- conspired to leak the news to the local media. The resulting firestorm of criticism embarrassed both Gibbons and the UK and the matter was quietly dropped. In 1968, when British troops did in fact play a more significant role in tamping down the pre-election riots, a bill was sent and paid in full with no objections from the local Powers That Be. This fact never made it into the local press as far as I am aware ...

[Cancundreaming on 13.12.05 at 13:38]

GOD!

I don't even know where to start with this thread. But I’m so happy it has come up!.

I have always hated the regiment. The mere notion that i could be forced into military service pisses me off. If Bermuda was Israel, then i could see the need, or if Bermuda even had a remote chance of entering some sort of war i would perhaps lessen my view...
But Bermuda’s not Israel…Not to mention to compare the quality of armies is a Joke. I'm not sure if the regiment could propel a bunch of invading sea turtles… Ok I'm joking… I think,…

Not to mention it is a violation, in my opinion, of any fair and equitable political system. Women are exempt? Why? Because they're women? Is somehow the civic duty of women less? Don't need 'discipline', as the argument goes...

I find it insulting that the regiment is going to now teach me discipline...Are you kidding me? These people?

al-ghorab suggested there should be an education component to it, fine, but excuse me, i graduated high school, and am finishing up my undergrad degree at a great university, thank you very much but I’ll take care my education myself.

What's interesting is that i would probably consider joining the regiment if it was voluntary... But as it currently stands now, it's the plague in my opinion, there's nothing worse the being in an organization where very few people want to be...

Now Jake suggests that once completed people often will look upon it positively. That may be the case but if the standard used by the state to force its population to do something is whether they will look upon the experience as positive favorable act. Then may i suggest that the government start rounding up obese people and put them into a program which will help them loss weight, one that incorporates exercise and nutritional education.. Surely after this experience, and after losing considerable weight, most people will look at this experience as a positive one....

Where’s H Reardon and J Galt…SOS.

If either party stated that they would disband or change the regiment to a voluntary organization, they would have my vote, easy as pie.

[Cancundreaming on 13.12.05 at 13:43]

Wow did that feel good to get out, grammatical errors and all.

Synopsi s= Cancundreaming thinks regiment bad...

[Onion on 13.12.05 at 13:44]

Realtime,

You sound like you had a very bad experience in the regiment. Let me remind you that the regiment is made up of conscripts. You have underwriters and lawyers mixed in with drug dealers, ex-cons and labourers. Yes, of course you will have guys smoking or drinking when they are not supposed to. Unless the Regiment's lack of resources is rectified this will always happen. The Regiment is not perfect but I would dare say it has done a lot more good than harm to this country. Show me another organisation in Bermuda that instils discipline, respect and honour in individuals the way the regiment does. I would be interested to hear your answer.

The officers and sergeants, for the most part, train with the best of the British Army at Sandhurst and Brecon. I put it back on you and say that most British Territorial Army commanders at an equivalent rank would not survive one week amongst a platoon of Bermuda Regiment rifle company conscripts. It is a far greater challenge being in charge of troops who don't want to be there as opposed to keen volunteers.

Lord Macinlay's comments are illiogical. How do you arrest someone in a jumpsuit? Get him to change right there in the street before you put him in the van? The fact is that dodging your military call up is to break the law and, as such, being handcuffed is perfectly legitimate. That's the law! Furthermore, would someone remind the daft git that we are a British colony and the Commander-in-Chief of the Regiment is the Governor, representative of HIS Queen.

[bully on 13.12.05 at 13:44]

Hey draftdodger if you'll reached 29 or 30 and never actually attended the regiment your home free

[Adjustah on 13.12.05 at 13:49]

Bully,

"Hey draftdodger if you'll reached 29 or 30 and never actually attended the regiment your home free"

Nope.

[blovator on 13.12.05 at 13:50]

The critisism from the UK Parlaiment comes from country that eats beef but banned fox-hunting. I would say they don't have all their moral ducks in a row.

[loki on 13.12.05 at 13:55]

"Bully,

"Hey draftdodger if you'll reached 29 or 30 and never actually attended the regiment your home free"

Nope."

But the chances of ever being called if you haven't been called at any prior time that you have been eligible are pretty bloody remote, though, yes?

[Pitts Bay on 13.12.05 at 13:57]

What a load of shit has been posted here. Someone made the comment that you can tell the people who have done their time and those that have not. How true that is!!

Nicolette, I know a lot of the same people as you (from the so called affluent white segment of society), and a lot of them were drafted. I expect most people would put me in that catagory.

I did my first 2 years when I was 19. Departed for University, a number of differing degrees and a professional qualification later, I returned to Bermuda when I was 30. Got called up to do my final year. Yes, I tried to fight it, went to the Defence Tribunal etc. Was not successful (maybe I should have hired Rod, but then again I am not a concientious objector!!) and had to do my time in training camp AGAIN!!

Can't say I enjoyed it that much, but in hind sight it is character building and is the great leveller of Bda.

DRAFT DODGER - my understanding is that you must be able to complete your full three years prior to reaching the age of 33 in order to still be eligible for the draft.

As respects the UK MP's report - my feeling is that it is over the top and not a good representation of what happens. It may with particularly unruly conscripts, but it is the law, they should comply. If they break the law, then pay the consequences. We all should play by the same rule book. So if it takes hand cuffs & orange jump suits, then so be it.

[J Galt on 13.12.05 at 14:00]

"2: Create mandatory service for men and women for three years from the age of 18. (Specific amount of time given to community service must be done by all those that avoid regiment duty.)"

The Bermuda Regiment itself isn't a human rights violation, and if you agree or disagree with its role or how it carrys out its function doesn't change that fact.

Rights are being violated when you are forced to join the regiment, yes there is a gender bias, but forcing women to join is not going to change the fact that individuals are being forced to serve the majority.

It when you have someone elses will FORCED on you that your rights are violated.

[Nicolette on 13.12.05 at 14:01]

As a female I think it only fair that if men have to serve, women should also. I am quite a decent shot and I can tell you that the average Bermudian woman is a force to be reckoned with when you threaten our family ...

[Christine on 13.12.05 at 14:04]

I'm personally a fan of conscription - when you think about it, who would serve in the Bermuda regiment if it wasn't mandatory? I do however have an issue with women not being called up - I'd go if conscripted. There are many girls in Bermuda in need of boot camp. There is no need for people to dodge being called up either and get arrested when you can just do community service for three years to get out of it anyway.

[bully on 13.12.05 at 14:05]

Adjustah, if you were 30 and had never done any regiment before that and got called up you have to be a very unlucky bastard. I know one of the sergents, a decent one not one of the idiots, and he said if you've reached 29 or older and haven't actually done any time in the regiment, regardless if you've been called up before that your not going to get called up after that. Like I said if you did you just have very bad luck.

[J Galt on 13.12.05 at 14:07]

"As a female I think it only fair that if men have to serve, women should also."

And you speak for all females? Or is that just your individual opinion?

If you wish to serve then serve, don't be a fool and try to speak for others, you don't have the right.

[Uncle Elvis on 13.12.05 at 14:08]

So, Galt, the Regiment isn't a violation, but mandatory conscription is, right?
Just want to clarify.