Another independence referendum

The South Pacific islands of Tokelau have become the latest colony to reject independence in a referendum.

Sixty per cent of the islands' 600 voters supported an end to rule by New Zealand, but this fell short of the two-thirds majority required.

Tokelau's outgoing political leader Pio Tuia, who backed self-government, said he was satisfied with the result.

"I'm happy because it's the will of the people," the French news agency AFP quoted him as saying.

Thanks to Nick for the heads-up.

Meanwhile, Bermudians For Referendum are wondering what they need to do to persuade Premier Alex Scott extend the same courtesy to Bermudians - and whether he'd even respect the result. That's despite the Premier now being in possession of a petition containing 15,523 signatures calling for a referendum.

As another reader pointed out to me: "The total number of people who voted for the PLP in the 2003 election was 15,222. More people want a referendum on Independence than voted for the PLP in the last election."

» I asked Rolfe Commissiong, one of the former members of the Bermuda Independence Commission, whether a similar arrangement to the Tokelau referendum might be appropriate for Bermuda.

His response:

"Either by way of a general election or by way of a referendum a simple majority is all that is required. Otherwise you allow the minority to deny the will of the majority...

While such a undemocratic requirement in my view is possible in the Bermudian context - a similiar attempt was legislated for the 95 referendum - it is unlikely under a PLP Government no matter the process utilized to determine the will of the people on this issue."

I asked the same question of Premier Alex Scott, but I have not yet received a response.

Comments

[Tiger Bay on 16.02.06 at 17:54]

This referendum was supported by the same UN decolonisation group that was here last year, and was overseen by a seperate UN elections body.

[tong on 16.02.06 at 18:59]

Outgoing leaders seem to like this sort of thing don't they.

[NoVote on 16.02.06 at 21:54]

I find the whole discussion about a referendum pretty absurd really.

This is not because I am against the notion of a referendum on Independence or because I feel that referenda in general aren't a useful mechanism within the democratic process.

It's just that I feel that a referendum should be utilised by governments when there is both some genuine uncertainty about the desires of the electorate and there is also a compelling and immediate need to make a decision.

This is simply not the case in this instance.

All of the published statistical data gathered about the electorate's desire to achieve Independence suggests that it is by a large majority not interested in doing so.

Furthermore, if the government didn't insist upon pushing this unpopular agenda, there would be more or less no interest in the debate at all.

The push for a referendum is simply a push by a large - probably majority - proportion of the electorate to prevent the government (or rather a small number of powerful but misguided people) from imposing its own narrow agenda upon the people that it is supposed to be serving.

Let's just recognise what the BFR petition realy is: it's 15,000+ voters telling the government that they don't want to be Independent and don't want to be forced to have to keep debating the issue.

What's the point of holding a referendum? We already know what the result will be, and we already know that the government won't be inclined to take any notice.

[Lost in Flatts on 17.02.06 at 08:36]

I think the point would be that if you have a referendum, and it fails, then the government doesn't really have any firm footing with which to move to be independent.

The danger is that without one the government might just push independence on the electorate, and tell the outside world it was really the will of the people. And since there'll be no definitive proof otherwise, they might get away with it.

I agree with you NoVote, its not like if we picked another issue that only had say 15% popular support (sorry can't recall latest figures) anyone would bother debating whether or not we should vote on it. But thus is the nature of the current PLP leadership that they just don't care what 85% of the population want.

[TJL on 17.02.06 at 08:53]

I think the BIC would be more than happy to point out that on a distant island ruled by a country which itself is ruled by the Queen (does that make them a double colony?), the will of a majority of the population was for self-determination, and because of a referendum that will was frustrated.

Personally, I read the story of Tokelau as an example of a poor way to organise your referendum - if you want to give it legitimacy, the hurdle threshold should be 51%, not two thrids.

[ken on 17.02.06 at 09:09]

In the daily today, the Premier clearly states that when the peoples view on independence either through referendum or general election is heard, if the government is still a PLP government, they WILL ABIDE BY THE RESULT.

So all you people that STILL think that the govermment is just going to blindly take us to independence despite the peoples' views, can you quit the scaremongering and BS.

[Lost in Flatts on 17.02.06 at 09:44]

Think about that statement, if it's decided by referendum OR general election, if the government is STILL in power they'll abide by the result.

So if they're going to have a referendum, what would that have to do with the government remaining in power? Sounds to me like Alex is pretty firmly decided to tie the independnce decision into a general election.

The concern here is that the UBP have not made their position on indepedence clear, so if you're a voter, you may not really have a choice between indepedence and no indepedence. It might amount to indepedence with the PLP or a promise of a referendum with the UBP. And in the end that IS NOT a vote on whether or not each voter wants indepedence.

Maybe if the PLP demonstrated some signs that they understood or rather cared about this fear, then people wouldn't worry they might pull something unethical in order to get their way. Until then, I'd much rather err on the side of caution.

[ken on 17.02.06 at 09:47]

What I took the Premier's statement to mean was that if they have a referendum they will abide by the result, and if they have an election, again they will abide by the result. He said that he will be releasing a statement in response to the petition soon.

Either way it means that they will listen to the people, which is what they have said all this time. They never said they will take bermuda independent against the will of the people. In fact, they can't! The UK will never grant us independence unless it is apparent that the Bermudian people want it.

Why people can't see this totally baffles me. It has to be because they just don't want to.

[Silencio on 17.02.06 at 09:58]

"Personally, I read the story of Tokelau as an example of a poor way to organise your referendum - if you want to give it legitimacy, the hurdle threshold should be 51%, not two thrids."

I hadn't thought of it that way, but you make a very good point.

What really irks me about BFR is that they have gotten people to sign a petition on having a referendum. Subsequent to this they have put additional requirements on it:

* Must be done in three months
* Must not be done along with a general election
* Anything short of a referendum is undemocratic

BFR is essentially hijacking petitioners who merely agreed that a referendum is preferred. This will certainly make me think twice about signing petitions in the future. Once your name is on it, the petitioners can tweak it to their liking/agenda :-(

[NoVote on 17.02.06 at 10:08]

Ken,

It is manifestly obvious that the electorate does not want to be Independent.

Every single statistical indicator and survey relating to the subject supports this view.

Why therefore is the government even continuing to discuss or pursue an Independence agenda unless it intends to drive it through irrespective of the electorate's will?

Tieing an Independence decision to a general election result is simply a cynical way to blur the electorate's opinion on Independence with other unrelated issues.

This approach is only necessary, because the government knows that there is not popular support for Independece as an agenda in its own right.

That the government would do this over a matter that is irrevocable and potentially of great consequence to our future is disgraceful.

Fortunately you are probably right that the UK would not permit Bermuda to become Independent in such circumstances.

[ken on 17.02.06 at 10:10]

And in reference to everyone signing the petition knowing what they were signing, I personally stood in windsor place at the ATM machine and saw the referendum workers stopping young people especially and shoving the petition in their faces and asking them to sign this. And in most cases these people signed without an explanation as to what it was and definitely they signed too quickly to full grasp or read what it was they were signing.
I also was at another establishment where I saw a co-workers name signed. Then immediately below her name, was her boyfriends name. It was blatantly obvious that the female had signed both names, as I know her handwriting and the two names were in the exact same handwriting.
So forgive me if these incidences lessen the integrity and validity of the petition to me.

Also I wonder how the anti-independence people feel about having to carry around UK ID cards wherever they go...I guarantee that if Premier Scott and the PLP government had recommended Bermuda ID cards to be carried around they would be accused of every conceivable and inconceivable thing.

[ken on 17.02.06 at 10:15]

I agree Novote...

I am a supporter of independence, but I believe that it is obvious that the electorate doesn't want it. I think the government should take a step back from pushing for it, however I do believe the education about it should continue. I think many anti-independence people are so closed to the topic that they won't allow themselves to even read the information objectively.

I expect the government to concede to a referendum. In my opinion thats their best way to maintain power. If they do tie it to an election, then they are risking losing government over the issue. But with a referendum, the issue will be decided and then they can get back to running the country.

[smith on 17.02.06 at 10:47]

"Also I wonder how the anti-independence people feel about having to carry around UK ID cards wherever they go..."

With Bermuda ID cards, they wouldn't be allowed to go anywhere, so I guess your point is moot.

[Bill Cook on 17.02.06 at 10:55]

I firmly believe everyone in Bermuda should carry an ID card with a passport type photo in it,as it would make things easier for law enforcement etc.

The requirement for a signature on the referendum form is that you must be a registered voter so to that extent an explanation is neccessary, rather difficult while shoving the form in someones face I should imagine, and speaking for myself, I would never sign anything under those circumstances and I feel would most refuse.

[Silencio on 17.02.06 at 11:06]

"Why therefore is the government even continuing to discuss or pursue an Independence agenda unless it intends to drive it through irrespective of the electorate's will?"

Exactly how is government driving independence through irrespective of the electorate's will? They are putting an unpopular topic on the table, and even if they somehow managed to get it put on a general election platform, the public has the democratic option of voting UBP just like any other unpopular issue.

[ken on 17.02.06 at 11:23]

Smith...

you are obviously missing the point to be antagonistic.

[NoVote on 17.02.06 at 11:24]

Silencio,

The difference between this unpopular agenda and others that may exist is that it is irrevocable once enacted.

You are correct that people have the right to vote the PLP out of office, if they put Independence on their platform.

However, in this instance people are being presented with a choice between Independence or a UBP government rather than Independence or a constitutional status quo.

Moreover, the electorate will be forced into making a decision that the vast majority clearly don't see the need to make at all.

I rather imagine that there are some people who feel given these options that they are between a rock and a hard place.

Sometimes we are all faced with such dilemmas. However, this one will have been created by design.

[ken on 17.02.06 at 11:26]

Silencio

Thank you for that. Just because the topic might be unpopular in some circles doesn't mean that it shouldn't be addressed. At least they are educating and discussing it. The other political entities are scared to even say how they feel on it.

[Silencio on 17.02.06 at 11:45]

"The difference between this unpopular agenda and others that may exist is that it is irrevocable once enacted."

Hardly any different from choosing who develops Berkeley Institute. You can't change that either, some $30mill later. With independence it's just the perceived magnitude of the issue if you ask me. The choice of party and agenda does not deserve the amount of hysteria it has received. We are a democracy whether we use a referendum or a general election to address the issue. If the PLP puts independence on the table and their supporters really don't want it, they have the democratic option to vote UBP. Plain and simple.

"Moreover, the electorate will be forced into making a decision that the vast majority clearly don't see the need to make at all."

I agree with you on this point. There is no public demand for the issue to be addressed, nor is there an urgent need for the Govt to put it to the public at this time. So for that reason the PLP should have it's butt kicked if they put it on the table via a GE.

[Tong on 17.02.06 at 11:53]

To Ken, the concern is that the Government are not listening to the people. Nowhere is this more apparent than in the way they completely dismissed the referendum petition.
The PLP feel that a referendum should not be held on Independance as it is too complicated and important a matter and it should be tied in with a general election... That is madness... and again indicative of political double speak. If it is too complicated and imprtant a matter shouldn't it be put to the people on it's own without party politics involved?

I also am still waiting to hear what actual benefits there will be other than for those at the top. In my view there are none. Please give me a list, tell me how black white or other are going to come out of this with a better life now and for the future.

I feel strongly about this as it is our future... it is about children.

Sorry I know this is a little off topic. Decision = Referendum Good, General election Bad.

[silencedogood on 17.02.06 at 11:56]

I firmly believe everyone in Bermuda should carry an ID card with a passport type photo in it,as it would make things easier for law enforcement etc.
Posted by Bill Cook on 17.02.06 at 10:55

Bill,

I see where you are comming from but it sounds too close to "Gibt mir deine Karte" for my liking. Maybe I've watched hotel rwanda and seen them check papers for Hutu too many times. Aren't drivers licenses enought?

I do believe the education about it should continue. I think many anti-independence people are so closed to the topic that they won't allow themselves to even read the information objectively.
Posted by: ken | 17 February 2006 at 14:15

Ken,

I don't assume that to be true, but even if so, that's their perrogative. There certainly are a lot of people for independence who seem to have closed minds on the topic. Would they be fair game for re-education? People can disagree without being closed minded.

I think, here at least, the pros and cons have been debated ad nauseum. This topic continues to destract from more important issues.

[NoVote on 17.02.06 at 11:59]

Silencio,

To a point I think that what you say makes sense.

It is about the perceived magnitude of the issue.

I guess it's a value judgement about where one draws the line.

Any decision that a government makes may have some irrevocable impact

What's being proposed here by the government though is a change to the way in which we are governed.

This could impact every other decision that's ever made by government.

I personally think that makes it big enough to draw the line.

[SmokingGun on 17.02.06 at 12:11]

Question: "Exactly how is government driving independence through irrespective of the electorate's will?"

Answer: "They are putting an unpopular topic on the table, and even if they somehow managed to get it put on a general election platform, the public has the democratic option of voting UBP just like any other unpopular issue."

Posted by Silencio on 17.02.06 at 11:06

Reasoning: The vast majority of blacks in Bermuda will vote PLP over UBP "just because".

Result: We all live in a new place called the "Republic of Bermuda" or ROB. Which would be appropriate because that's exactly what the PLP is hoping to do. ROB all Bermudian's of their democratic freedoms by manipulating the outcome of a vote.

[Silencio on 17.02.06 at 12:14]

"Sometimes we are all faced with such dilemmas. However, this one will have been created by design."

Missed that the first read through - totally agree more. I think independence should be an issue that is put into the public forum perpetually until their is a tide to have a vote on it. Right now the electorate has far more important things on their mind, and the PLP should be ashamed for failing to address the country's basic necessities.

[floyd on 17.02.06 at 12:16]

Alex Scott is doing what I find black people on this island are good at doing when confronted by white people (which the people who presented the petition are), completely ignoring them as if they didn't exist. Sorry I'm not fitting in with the PC mood of this website, but it's the truth.

[Silencio on 17.02.06 at 12:17]

"What's being proposed here by the government though is a change to the way in which we are governed.

This could impact every other decision that's ever made by government.

I personally think that makes it big enough to draw the line."

Another superb point. I have no fear about cutting ties with the UK. I have no hysteria about that. But my minimum requirement would be that a massive constitutional study take place before the issue is put on the table. Perhaps bind a new constitution to a referendum/election. I don't at all support a "figure out the constitution after the vote" line of action at all.

[Silencio on 17.02.06 at 12:20]

Floyd,

You are probably one of those white people who only know blacks through what you see on TV or through the actions of the PLP Cabinet.

Heeeey, it's Friday.

[tong on 17.02.06 at 12:30]

Floyd, actually I think you got it wrong... here's the kicker, the referendum supporters are black and white, could this actually be something that binds us together as a people rather than a different flag. Bermudians of all colours have thrived through some difficult times and despite what some non Bermudians may think we are a hard working, resourceful people, our history has taught us that. Maybe we can prove it yet again.

Also Silencio, don't you think that it's not a fear of cutting ties with the UK, it is the opportunities that will be lost that is the issue. What is the benefit of decreasing our opportunities when we live on a tiny dot in the Atlantic with no natural resources, no connection to a landmass and everything we need from education to food comes from somehwere else?

[SmokingGun on 17.02.06 at 12:41]

Floyd - you confuse the issue between black people and PLP. Which only means you have fallen for the PLP's pranks. RFB has nothing to to with black white or anything in between.

tong - you are absolutely correct. Heck just look at Alex's "rumpus' in the Caymans. He's causing a fuss by expecting them to pay for his extended visit. He should get his derriere back home and stop wasting their time and money just to boost his ego. Can you imagine an independent Bermuda where half our so called leaders are constantly off island trying to suck up to the rest of the world. Give me a break.

[Tiger Bay on 17.02.06 at 12:47]

The 2006 Budget announced this morning stated that funds had been allocated to the Cabinet office to continue the "national dialogue" on independence. The actual dollar amount is not identified.

[Silencio on 17.02.06 at 12:54]

Tong,

Cutting ties as a colony does not mean that Bermuda is going it alone. I actually cringe when people make it sound like that. We will still have very, very strong ties to both England and the US by way of international business. Going alone would be to torpedo our sources of income - something I think were not too dumb to do. But if that was to tank, the only opportunity missing would be a free pass to the European Union. Now to some, the idea of expatriating to the EU if Bermuda was to crumble is quite attractive. Not me though. This is my country and I am here for thick or thin. I'm not British - I'm Bermudian, and I'm not going to cut and run.

We have an archaic system of Government as it is. It needs to be modernized, but that does not require independence.

[tong on 17.02.06 at 13:18]

Silencio,

the idea is not to cut and run to Europe, I too am Bermudian and this is my home. However, opportunities for work, travel and education overseas are a huge asset to any country, until i see some major benefit that Independance would bring, I would rather opt to maintain as many options as possible. If you personally are not interested in that sort of thing then fine I have no issue with that. However my concern is that there are many people who value these things. And if we sever ties then noone has the option to stay or to go.

And I do think that were we to cut our ties, we would in fact be going it alone. Business ties exist yes this is true, but they may not always. And, I do think that people tend to gloss over the very real sway that being tied to one of the major western countries actually has. The reality of the issue is foreign companies look at us as a fairly safe bet as we have physical governmental ties to England, a known entity Globally speaking. Were we to have the same relationship with the states I'd feel the same way. Mayeb we are too small to not have a government that has checks and balances with a foreign power to ensure that politically, we maintain a steady uncorrupt course.

The bigger global picture is what we need to be educated on. What is best for our future as a country sociall, culturally, politically and most importantly economically, as that allows us the breathing space to contemplate the rest.

[tong on 17.02.06 at 13:20]

p.s. I unfortunately don't trust any government to give us the straight talk on independance when they are so obviously pro-independance, and anti any attempt to make it as democratic a process as possible. ie a referendum.

[thisgrassman on 17.02.06 at 13:47]

Has anyone ever done an analysis of our civil servant per capita ratio as compares to other countries of similar size and development. Did BIC get round to this?

You would expect the number to be higher than larger countries given economies of scale but I have a sense our inflated civil service would put us in the top heavy division.

So then independence? Can you imagine the extra strain on taxpayers of another tier of civil servants looking to get their heads in the trough. It needs to be demonstated to me a complete restructuring and rationalisation of the way government functions before i even start thinking about independence.

[SmokingGun on 17.02.06 at 13:53]

What strikes me funny is that last week we are discussing the fact that it's too damn expensive to live in Bermuda and there are many who simply say, too bad if you can't afford a house in your own country, move. A week later we discuss the fact that we have many who would cut away the safety net our relationship with Great Britain affords our future generations. Can't afford to live here, can't go anywhere else.

Personally speaking I prefer to have a parachute when I go sky diving....

[Silencio on 17.02.06 at 13:59]

"the idea is not to cut and run to Europe, I too am Bermudian and this is my home. However, opportunities for work, travel and education overseas are a huge asset to any country"

Oh my goodness, whatever did we do to advance ourselves prior to having British passports?

"And I do think that were we to cut our ties, we would in fact be going it alone. Business ties exist yes this is true, but they may not always."

And if international business was to falter, we would effectively become independent and cut off from the rest of the world whether or not we voted on it. Our real connection and importance to these superpowers is economic - they could really care less that we are a colony if we run a tight ship economically.

[SmokingGun on 17.02.06 at 14:03]

"Oh my goodness, whatever did we do to advance ourselves prior to having British passports?"

Carve our name in rock and wait for the first ship to come by and get us the hell out of here....

[Silencio on 17.02.06 at 14:23]

"Carve our name in rock and wait for the first ship to come by and get us the hell out of here...."

More fantasy. We were a global insurance juggernaut before we had British passports. Bermudians never needed UK passports to get what they needed to be hugely successful. Look at all the top lawyers we have. Most were educated in the UK without the assistance of a UK passport. Same thing goes for our accounts, underwriters and actuaries. UK passports are mostly meaningless.

But hey, if you want to work in a cafe in Gugendorffenstein earning 3 Euros per hour, knock yourself out.

[tong on 17.02.06 at 14:27]

Oh my goodness, whatever did we do to advance ourselves prior to having British passports?

Well we had to work alot harder than we would now to leave the rock and study, work or traveln. You can be sarcastic if you want but it won't hide the fact that having the option to be able to live and work in the EU... anywhere in the EU with other people from all over the world... is something that most other countries would give anything for. It is in no way a negative thing, we have it now, there is no downside.

And if international business was to falter, we would effectively become independent and cut off from the rest of the world whether or not we voted on it. Our real connection and importance to these superpowers is economic - they could really care less that we are a colony if we run a tight ship economically.

Its not the countries I was talking about, I am assuming you mean the companies. Lets take that, you are right that they do care that we run a tight ship economically, this is in fact my exact point. They look at Bermuda and they think... ok... little Island, is connected to the UK, I have more faith in that scenario than in little Island nation on its own. They know that thr rules and laws that apply to one of the western powers applies to this country. One could say well that would not change if we went independant, but it would, peoples ideas about us would change no matter how stable or not we are.
My main point though is what does it bring us. For me its a question of how will independance benefit us. You gave me sarcasm, let's try a straight answer on the benefits. I am not trying to get into it, but this is so serious that if you are going to bring about such monumnetal change you better have your shit straight. Have the reasons, have the pros, the cons then make decisions. Have a reason.

[tong on 17.02.06 at 14:31]

Oh and to the point of UK passports. One reason why to have the option of a UK passport and the opportunity to work in a foreign country or live is a bad thing. One reason.

[SmokingGun on 17.02.06 at 14:33]

Silencio - with all due respect, you seem to simply choose to ignore or give no validity to the fact that the UK has given Bermuda so much to be appreciative of. You ignore the simple fact that the only reason Bermuda is an insurance juggernaut is due pretty much to the fact that we follow the British law (something I learned here on Limey) and not just our tax status.

Not only does our current bunch of cowboys look a gift horse in the mouth, they kick it in the teeth...

[Shark on 17.02.06 at 14:54]

A referendum will lead to a no vote on independence and that’s why the PLP are taking so long to getting to the issue. Independence is bad for Bermuda period.

And the passport issue is one of the main concerns for the youth of Bermuda anyway. The truth is outside of business and economics Bermuda has nothing to offer the youth (just look at the Bermuda Collage academic courses). Not everyone wants to go into business and having a UK passport makes it easier to get experience abroad. Maybe this is not a concern for older generations but why give up the opportunity to live and work/get experience in over 25 countries?

The PLP should concentrate on more important issues then wanting to achieve something they missed out on decades ago when the other former colonies went independent.

Why I and my friends also studying in the US, Europe and Canada are against independence you might ask? Well how about the felling we get when we see our country that we would like to go back to one day being lead by a bunch of dinosures down a path that will wreak our opportunities and those of future generations just to satisfy the emotional (yes the only real support for independence is based on emotion) needs of older generation who missed out on going independent when the other colonies did. Or just the fact we feel that the PLP doesn’t care about us.

[Silencio on 17.02.06 at 15:00]

"Well we had to work alot harder than we would now to leave the rock and study, work or traveln."

No we didn't. How old are you? Who is feeding you that nonesense? I don't have a British passport and I travel to the EU effortlessly all the time. My best friends have been educated in the UK with hardly a challenge, all without a UK passport.

" They look at Bermuda and they think... ok... little Island, is connected to the UK, I have more faith in that scenario than in little Island nation on its own."

That is very naive. These billion dollar companies do not merely look at the label. When they consider risk they look at every facet of national stability, and it is much more than being connected to the UK. Montserrat is a colony too, but you don't see XL packing their bags to take up residence near a volcano. Further, the importance of any connection to the UK would have been much higher when we were trying to establish ourselves. Now when they look to the island, they look at the infrastructure and who is already here.

"You ignore the simple fact that the only reason Bermuda is an insurance juggernaut is due pretty much to the fact that we follow the British law (something I learned here on Limey) and not just our tax status."

No I don't. These businesses want reliable, business-friendly law in a tax friendly environment. Our present legal system has more than enough flexibility to scupper international business overnight. Cutting ties with the UK (not that I am for this) does not necessarily mean that we would no longer follow British law either. We have been successful, because we have acted wisely and maintained wise laws. They will leave whenever we adopt laws and tax rules that are not business friendly.

[tong on 17.02.06 at 15:05]

Silencio,
if you want to continue the discussion then answer the question regarding the benefits.

[SmokingGun on 17.02.06 at 15:23]

tong - careful you don't get caught up in the famous Silencio Spin Cycle. :)
Just ask Elvis.....

[silencedogood on 17.02.06 at 15:28]

but this is so serious that if you are going to bring about such monumnetal change you better have your shit straight. Have the reasons, have the pros, the cons then make decisions. Have a reason.
Posted by tong on 17.02.06 at 14:27

Well said.

Now when they look to the island, they look at the infrastructure and who is already here.
Posted by Silencio on 17.02.06 at 15:00

I wouldn't tout Bermuda's infrastructure if I were you. It is woefully out of date and inadequate. Try getting BTC to set up something as simple as office telephones or try to change your corporate internet provider and measure it based on 1) speed, 2) accurracy, and 3) reliability fails often on all counts.

Or look back, hmmmm, to this summer where international businesses were scrambling to send key employees off island because of the BELCO fire. Not to mention the local radio station prank calling one of those companies causing a major disruption to their business.

Let's not mention that the key replacement components were not overstocked on the island for such contingency despite the fact they take 8-12 months to replace leaving IB subject to rolling blackouts for an extended period.

The last time the NY had a blackout it affected the entire region and power was up by the next day! Let's repeat that, a regional blackout with restored power in 24 hours. BELCO serves 60,000 and is not fully restored for months.

There are good reasons for IB to be here, infrastructure ain't one of them and touting the companies who are here ignores that they can leave.

IB isn't a captive audience to be treated the same as a person in line to set up their cable.

Silencio, I note that you seem to have the same trait as most independence supporters I've spoken to in that your viewpoint is rose-tinted on almost all fronts.

If you can espouse concrete reasons and examples where independence would benefit Bermuda I would listen.

You seem to be saying, "Don't worry, everything will be fine...fine....fine...you are getting very sleepy..."

[thisgrassman on 17.02.06 at 15:32]

I would like to ask the patronizing pro–independence boosters, who bleat on and on about educating us poor dummkopfs who don’t see any merit in their empty ideal, if they could examine the case of Malta’s referendum to join the EU a few years ago. Specifically, I would like them to confirm the following for themselves:

1. Malta has been occupied and ruled by foreign powers for all but 39 of its 4000 year history
2. The ancestors of the Maltese were regularly seized from their island home and carted off into slavery
3. The Maltese have been fucked over by every major Mediterranean power seeking to dominate the region - including the Phoenicians, Greeks, Romans, Ottomans, etc.
4. They had to put up with being told what to do by that poisoned dwarf Napoleon during the French quest for empire
5. Add insult to injury they then had to suffer the British and their crap food until 1971 when the naval base closed
6. And lets not forget they were almost bombed into oblivion by the Italians and Germans during WW2 as they were a critical strategic base for the allies naval campaign
7. The history of the Maltese people must have made sovereignty a deep emotional longing in the collective psyche so when they gained their independence from Britain in 1964 and became a republic in 1974 it must have been like finally reaching the promised land.

Hopefully the protagonists for Bermudian Independence will actually look more closely at the history of Malta and ask themselves why did a country that finally wins freedom from outside interference, then only 30 years later hand back some control of its affairs to Brussels?

The referendum vote was only 54% but this number is significant. Half the population of a nation waiting millennia to be free to chart its own course so readily decides it is better to become part of a larger whole that is Europe. There can be no better example of how ideology-driven agendas can so quickly lose their steam and be overtaken by pragmatic considerations.

Cannot Bermuda not learn something from this densely populated island of only slightly larger size/population, dwarfed on all sides by much larger countries and that tried to go it alone and then saw a better future in Europe?

[Point Finger on 17.02.06 at 15:33]

Determining Independence via general election is ridulous. Lets think back to junior school maths. In the last election the popular vote was 48% to 52% approx. What were the seats in the general election 14 to 22? That percentage is 38.9% to 61.1%. Off by approx 9%.

Thus on junior school mathematics, the hypotoses of deciding independence by a general election just does not add up.

[JJ on 17.02.06 at 15:38]

It's the same circle jerk discussed ad nauseum on this blog. Not one supporter of independence has ever laid out any non-emotional benefits of independence. All they ever do is deny the genuine fears and concerns of people who may not be actually against independence itself but merely want some rationale for taking a monumental and irreversible jump into the unknown.

[Silencio on 17.02.06 at 16:33]

["Moreover, the electorate will be forced into making a decision that the vast majority clearly don't see the need to make at all."

I agree with you on this point. There is no public demand for the issue to be addressed, nor is there an urgent need for the Govt to put it to the public at this time. So for that reason the PLP should have it's butt kicked if they put it on the table via a GE.]

You guys only see what you want to see. Listen, I'm not interested in independence right now. I just think most of the arguments against it are hysterical (as are most of the arguments for it). Can't be bothered to debate it either - it just isn't that important to me.