Another independence referendum

The South Pacific islands of Tokelau have become the latest colony to reject independence in a referendum.

Sixty per cent of the islands' 600 voters supported an end to rule by New Zealand, but this fell short of the two-thirds majority required.

Tokelau's outgoing political leader Pio Tuia, who backed self-government, said he was satisfied with the result.

"I'm happy because it's the will of the people," the French news agency AFP quoted him as saying.

Thanks to Nick for the heads-up.

Meanwhile, Bermudians For Referendum are wondering what they need to do to persuade Premier Alex Scott extend the same courtesy to Bermudians - and whether he'd even respect the result. That's despite the Premier now being in possession of a petition containing 15,523 signatures calling for a referendum.

As another reader pointed out to me: "The total number of people who voted for the PLP in the 2003 election was 15,222. More people want a referendum on Independence than voted for the PLP in the last election."

» I asked Rolfe Commissiong, one of the former members of the Bermuda Independence Commission, whether a similar arrangement to the Tokelau referendum might be appropriate for Bermuda.

His response:

"Either by way of a general election or by way of a referendum a simple majority is all that is required. Otherwise you allow the minority to deny the will of the majority...

While such a undemocratic requirement in my view is possible in the Bermudian context - a similiar attempt was legislated for the 95 referendum - it is unlikely under a PLP Government no matter the process utilized to determine the will of the people on this issue."

I asked the same question of Premier Alex Scott, but I have not yet received a response.

Comments

[Bill Cook on 17.02.06 at 17:55]

If all the arguments against independence are hysterical then what are the arguments for it called ?

WHAT ARE THE ARGUMENTS FOR IT PERIOD ?

What do you call someone who is for independence but does not know why and does not know of any meaningful benefits that he can put forward convincingly ?

We Bermudians may not be the brightest in the whole wide world but we have proven that we are far from the dumbest.

[Uncle Elvis on 17.02.06 at 18:59]

Smokes, don't bring me into this! *grin*

Mr. Cook, You have the point, there. What are the pros? Anti-independance folks list con after con, only to have them dismissed or countered with twisted logic. We never get any pros to think about, let alone try to counter or express an opinion on.

Personally, until I see someone... ANYone... put out something positive and concrete about Independance, I choose not to involve myself with more circular arguments that go nowhere.

[RedOnion on 17.02.06 at 19:09]

Elvis, just think of this .... you can submit a winning design for a new flag!

[Silencio on 17.02.06 at 19:23]

"Anti-independance folks list con after con, only to have them dismissed or countered with twisted logic."

I've seen the same thing happen on the other side. People talkin' about Osama being a threat to Bermuda. Neither side is willing to be rational. That's why you have a vote on it. The side that makes the most persuasive argument wins - that's democracy.

[Uncle Elvis on 17.02.06 at 20:38]

If you've seen it, what are the pros cited on the other side? For that matter, what are the cons cited for staying dependant?

"That's why you have a vote on it"

Isn't that what a referendum is? A vote on the subject at hand and only the subject at hand?

Red,
Thanks for the vote of confidence! *grin*

[flee on 17.02.06 at 20:39]

Anybody for independence is losing sight of the fact that if we go independent, the our new king, president, emperor, chief, whatever can make up the rules as they go along, despite what they might promise beforehand. Our current government has a history of lying and deceiving (openly) to get their way, why trust them now.
That's what Mugabe did in Zimbabwe, and there are currently far too many similarities in mentalities and agendas to think the PLP would do otherwise.

[Bill Cook on 17.02.06 at 22:24]

For a very long time one of the strongest supporters of independence also supported Mugabe.

Only after the economy collapsed and starvation set in has he reconsidered his stance.

In his column he dances around trying to find a way to blame the problems in Zim on colonialism not Robbie, interesting no ?

[flee on 18.02.06 at 07:21]

Interesting or just another use of the race card as an excuse.

Here's a taste of what we can look forward to.

"HARARE, Zimbabwe (AP) -- The corpses of at least 20 newborn babies and fetuses are found each week in the sewers of Zimbabwe's capital, some having been flushed down toilets""Acute shortages of revenue and gasoline in the nation's worst economic crisis since independence in 1980 have crippled public utilities and garbage collection services across Zimbabwe.

Hospital fees and charges for scarce medicines have soared. Church and charity groups blame economic hardships for an increase in illegal back-street abortions."

"Inflation is running at 613 percent and many impoverished Zimbabweans, unable to afford cleaning materials or detergents, use sand to scour cooking pots and household dishes.

Salt is also used as a substitute for toothpaste."

ya, so i pretty much copied and pasted the whole thing from cnn, but if you want to see the whole article, here it is.

http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/africa/02/17/zimbabwe.fetuses.ap/index.html

Hey, at least we'll have our national pride and a great cricket team

[Bill Cook on 18.02.06 at 09:12]

It should be pointed out however that not all Zimbabweans are unhappy with Mugabe's murderous bestial behaviour.

His henchmen and cronies are larded down with wealth and land ownership and followers and supporters are given the best food while the masses starve and die of disease.

Most totalarian regimes have a similar scenario like Cuba just as in the old Russia if you were on the inside track you got well looked after while everyone else got screwed all that were not executed that is.

[Phil on 18.02.06 at 10:13]

The idea that Bermuda post-independence is going to turn into Zimbabwe is ridiculous.

This is one of the hysterical arguments that Silencio was referring to.

[Phil on 18.02.06 at 10:21]

I asked Rolfe Commissiong, one of the former members of the Bermuda Independence Commission, whether a similar arrangement to the Tokelau referendum might be appropriate for Bermuda.

His response:

"Either by way of a general election or by way of a referendum a simple majority is all that is required. Otherwise you allow the minority to deny the will of the majority...

While such a undemocratic requirement in my view is possible in the Bermudian context - a similiar attempt was legislated for the 95 referendum - it is unlikely under a PLP Government no matter the process utilized to determine the will of the people on this issue."

I asked the same question of Premier Alex Scott, but I have not yet received a response.

[tong on 18.02.06 at 10:52]

Limey,

agreed on the Zimbabwe hysteria thing, I do not believe it would become a Zimbabwe. However our current govt have said some scary things in regards to Mugabe's dictatorship. I cannot quote unfortunately I just remember it being along the lines of , not all his ideas are bad.

But yes that is a hysterical idea. potential benefits vs potential negatives. Up to this point it has been about how to quell those not in favour, as opposed to trying to convince thorugh logical planned ideas. I think that this is an indicator of where the govt's true desires are.

[Bill Cook on 18.02.06 at 11:11]

No rational sane person would ever think that Bermuda could ever turn into another Zimbabwe given the demographics and background.

What is not so ridiculous, is the concept of a dictatorship where power is concentrated in a very few people armed with their own constitution, it is the fear of a dictatorship replacing a democracy in my opinion.

[king on 18.02.06 at 11:22]

Silencio,
Why do you avoid the questions about the pros of independence? Is it because you yourself have no REAL answer to the question? And no...national pride does not constitue any real answer. If you cannot answer the question posed to you dont try and twist the cons of independence to make any anti-independence idea illogical. Either answer the question or keep your blatantly biased views on the cons of independence to yourself.

Put up or shutup.

have a nice day...

[SmokingGun on 18.02.06 at 12:53]

Could Bermuda become another Zimbabwe? Well yes and no. It's all relative. At the moment we have an incredibly healthy, wealthy and high standard of living and life-style. Should things start to deteriorate due to a host of issues that "will" hit us should we go independent then we will be faced with a living standard that will "have" to be adjusted. Will it ever get to the standards of Zimbabwe? No it will not, but just how willing are people going to accept that it is most likely to happen and have to adjust how far down. Heck let's not kid ourselves, it could happen with just a turn in the US laws and tax programs. But we stand a much better chance of holding onto a higher standard of living by remaining part of Great Britain.

I think a good barometer of how confident our people are in the PLP's plans is tell-tale by the amount of people that showed up at the conference on "How to purchase a house abroad".

[Gangalee on 18.02.06 at 18:49]

Bermuda is turning into a focking toilet and independence will only make it a bigger shithole than it already focking is. Somebody needs to swing swords at these focking asses that think that they're running things. Like we can't see they're running us straight into a focking wall. If we go independent all focking hell will break loose on this lil focking crack rock and fock who don't believe it. Who is gonna save us from these jokers. No focking body. It may be fair they wanna take some of the old power positions long held by cauks but, the roll of dice could sweep up a lil too much if they flop. What gets me is they're willing to roll the dice. Focking dumb ass waffless bastards.

[flee on 19.02.06 at 07:24]

Limey: Why is it a ridiculous idea? I understand you think it's an hysterical argument, but why?
(honestly, not trying to pick a fight here, but i know a lot of people who'll agree with me)

[Silencio on 19.02.06 at 10:40]

And this is why I won't be bothering to get into a real debate on independence. And to think that with WF saying the right things I was actually considering voting UBP this time around.

[smith on 19.02.06 at 12:19]

You won't 'get into a debate' because you have nothing to debate, you've shown us that throughout this thread.

[flee on 19.02.06 at 16:43]

I'm not trying to be stupid here, but seriously, why is it so far fetched. Silencio, why won't you debate? Do you disagree? Why? I'm curious.
I'm sitting right now with three southern africans who will tell you that they're experiencing deja vu.

[sal monilla on 19.02.06 at 18:45]

Round and round we go...where the spin stops nobody knows..
Will independence lower the cost of real estate? If so - lets go!

[Silencio on 20.02.06 at 07:08]

"You won't 'get into a debate' because you have nothing to debate, you've shown us that throughout this thread."

I won't get into a real debate when whites claim that blacks will turn Bermuda into Zimbabwe, because those whites clearly have a mental problem. I won't get into a real debate when sane whites don't condemn crazy whites for claiming that Bermuda will turn into Zimbabwe. Mute and oblivious, how sickening. I suppose we'll just wait for P's next email scandal to get all upset about racism in Bermuda again.

[Tiger Bay on 20.02.06 at 08:21]

From Cayman news: "The People's Progressive Movement, PPM held its annual conference Saturday and the guest speaker was Bermuda's Premier Alexander Scott. In his presentation, Premier Scott outlined Bermuda's Constitution and said he would not comment on how the Cayman Islands should change its constitution, but whatever is done, should involve the population."

Like maybe hold a referendum?

[thisgrassman on 20.02.06 at 12:09]

Silencio,

I roll my eyes everytime I hear some spastic comment about Bermuda becoming the next Zimbabwe - but what can you do? Entering into a debate is obviously pointless.

[SmokingGun on 20.02.06 at 12:20]

"Will independence lower the cost of real estate? If so - lets go!"
Posted by sal monilla on 19.02.06 at 18:45

Yes it may. If things don't go according to plan. But then having probably a quarter of Bermuda being forced into bankruptcy because of it might not be such a good thing. I'm not an economist by any stretch but knowing that the income tax that will have to be thrown on the shoulders of those that manage to hold onto their jobs will hurt pretty bad.

[flee on 20.02.06 at 17:03]

Because I have a personal opinion based on information and experiences I'm not the sharpest tool in the shed? To say that the PLP is making some very Mugabe-esque moves makes me "not the sharpest tool in the shed" and a "crazy white"?
Excuse me for a minute but, you have no clue about my education level or how intelligent I am. To call me stupid for my personal opinions is bullshit.

[YankeeKayaker on 09.06.06 at 23:13]

I've been reading this board for a while, and I hope you all don't mind if I throw in my two cents. To be openly honest, I'm an American - not a Bermudan or Englishmen. So you may wonder what my interest even is. Only as one who has majored in history and has an interest in "world events." But, like it or not, here it is;
I can find no reason for the Bermudan government to even be bothering with this question. The vast majority of Bermudans are against independence, there is nothing to be gained by independence (as independence supporters implicitly admit themselves, by their own inability to list even ONE thing to be gained), and there are many cons to the idea which, so far, PLP refuses to even admit (let alone address). Here in the States we certainly have our fair share of devious and/or obsessed idealogues in positions of power in our government - and I can tell you all...be VERY wary of any government that invents an "issue" where none exists, pushes that issue after they realize the public doesn't see it as an issue, and offers no justification for it's position on that "issue."
The previous references to Rhodesia/Zimbabwe are worth commenting on. First of all, I find it highly unlikely that the ethnic cleansing going on in Zimbabwe could happen in Bermuda in any circumstance. If nothing else, the US would never allow it. Extermintaing white Africans is considered politically correct by the west, but when it happens literally on America's door-step it would be considered a big no-no. (*note; I'm not condoning this situation, just making a factual observation). However...the cronyism, rampant corruption and a quasi-dictatorship is certainly within the realm of possible.
A couple of things that should also be remembered; the world is a big place, and also very interconnected these days. The benefits that a little dot of an island in the Atlantic gains by being a colony of a world power are enormous. The financial and business climate is notoriously fickle, changing drastically overnight - either on it's own or as a result of events in other world economic powers. As a colony, you can ride that out. If and when the next big world economic twist occurs, if Bermuda were independent, could it carry on without it's current international business base?
My take on "why" PLP is so obsessed with pushing the independence question is not that I think they are evil people. I strongly suspect that they are people who earnestly wish to carve out their legacies in history. "We led our country to independence," and all that. However, I also can't help but think about the results of independence of many other former island-colonies. Jamaica, the Bahamas,etc. haven't exactly seen the boom of benefits that were promised them by their respective independence parties - jobs for all, high education for the poor, high standards of living and so on and so on. In addition to that there have been many social problems arising - the marginalization of the white populations (yes, black people can be racist too), pseudo-socialistic governments coming to power, dramatic rise in crime, etc. I'm not saying all these things would "defintely" happen in an independent Bermuda - but you would be foolish to totally ignore the examples of these other island-colonies that have already gone down that road.
Enjoy the board and reading people's thoughts and views. And thanks for the chance to have an input here as well.

[SmokingGun on 09.06.06 at 23:31]

YankeeKayaker - thanks for the input. It's good to see someone living in the real world understands the folly we have to deal with on a daily basis.

And regarding:

"However...the cronyism, rampant corruption and a quasi-dictatorship is certainly within the realm of possible."

Too late. It's already here.

[Jamaican Q on 10.06.06 at 00:24]

YankeeKayaker- I couldn't agree with you more. I don't think Bermudians quite get it yet....nobody is going to do business there and the majority of the US firms (which bring off their economy) will pull out. It is simple....nobody does trade in "Banana Republics". Believe it or not....not trying to sound racist, but black governments are rarely trusted (do an analysis).I hear the Caymanians saying the same BS...thinking that without UK status and/or backing their economy will thrive as is.....it's a piped dream..

[JJ on 10.06.06 at 08:23]

Over to you Guilden....