Listen without prejudice

Last year I wrote an article in which I expressed my support for a process of truth and reconciliation to help heal Bermuda's racial divisions. Recently I've been wondering whether I might be able to use this blog to contribute more directly to such a process, by soliciting and giving prominence to the personal experiences of blacks.

"Perhaps it would be helpful for those blacks who were denied entry to local restaurants during the days of segregation, or who claim to have had their mortgages called in for criticising the establishment, to publicly recount their experiences," I wrote. "Moreover, it would be sobering for those without first-hand experience to hear these stories of Bermuda’s not-so-distant past."

Good anecdotes are more powerful than the generalisations, assumptions and accusations often thrown around during discussions of race. They're specific and deal in facts. They can bring home the reality of discrimination to someone who may have never experienced it.

"As a teenager, I spoke out at the public meetings that were then taking place and asked a few embarrasing questions of the government leaders in attendance," said Stuart Hayward recently. "My mother was told that if I didn't quit doing that, she could forget about getting me scholarship money to go abroad to school. My mother encouraged me to continue speaking out. We have no way of knowing precisely why, but even though I graduated from high school at the top of my class, we were turned down for every scholarship available at the time."

By simply relating the facts, and letting the reader draw his own conclusions about whether this was discrimination or not, stories like this make it easier for whites to appreciate what it is like to be black. Short of accusing Mr. Hayward of fabricating the whole thing, it's impossible to question his account. He doesn't generalise, or make assumptions or accuse anyone of anything. He's simply telling a story from his point of view.

I'd like to hear more stories like Mr. Hayward's.

So I invite black readers of this site to email me your personal experiences with racism and discrimination - be it during segregation or after. Any incidents that you relate should involve either you or your immediate family - perhaps stories that you have been told by your parents.

I will publish your accounts as posts on this site, anonymously if you wish. Because my aim is to encourage understanding, authors will also be able to decide the commenting policy on these posts. My suggestion is that comments be disabled for the first 24 hours after publication, to encourage people to reflect on what they read rather than immediately respond. However I'm also willing to disable comments completely, or enable them as normal, if that's what you'd prefer.

Whites such as Michael Taylor have their stories too. But for now I'd like to give prominence to the black experience. Blacks often say that whites need to acknowledge the ills of the past if there is ever to be racial reconciliation. Many whites, myself included, struggle to understand what form such acknowledgement must take. But if that is an accurate reflection of how the black community feels, then whites must find a way to do so.

It's my hope that listening without prejudice to the stories of Bermuda's blacks will help build this understanding.

Comments

[Lost in Flatts on 01.03.06 at 07:30]

I'm all for the idea, but don't think whites and others should be ignored, perhaps have two seperate threads/areas for contributions?

I believe that recognition must come from all sides before we can move forward.

[Raptor on 01.03.06 at 09:47]

Limey, I really like your idea of using your blog for some truth and reconciliation, especially for hearing about personal experiences of racism towards black Bermudians. The more public record of both the history and of current experiences, the better. You are right on about the importance of listening—“Listen Without Prejudice”—as the beginning of acknowledgement.

“Plantation Questions” yesterday brought out a lot of back and forth. Some of it was very effective and some less so. I’d like to recommend a short book that I’ve learned from (and need to read again) that would complement this new thread. All I can say is that I am grateful to have found it. We all need to improve our skills in communicating, resolving conflicts, and making agreements. These things are not easy, and they are not skills that come naturally. Each of us has a tendency to become defensive, to protect position at all costs, to attack when we feel attacked, to become angry when we feel we are not being heard.

Getting To Yes: Negotiating Agreement Without Giving In by Fisher, Ury, and Patton of the Harvard Negotiation Project is a common-sense, win-win classic—a 200-page, easy-to-read paperback—that teaches how to “separate people from the problem; focus on interests not positions; work together to create options that will satisfy both parties; and negotiate successfully with people who are more powerful, refuse to play by the rules, or resort to ‘dirty tricks.’”

The book begins with the important question: “What is the best way for people to deal with their differences?” The authors point out we are all negotiators—it’s a fact of life. We negotiate with our kids, with our spouse, on the blog….

Getting To Yes shows that “when more attention is paid to positions, less attention is devoted to meeting the underlying concerns of the parties.” It teaches that it is necessary to “be soft on the people and hard on the problem; be focused on interests not positions; to invent options for mutual gain; and to insist on using objective criteria.” What I’ve learned so far I have found to be freeing. I'm sure many lawyer bloggers have encountered this training already, but for the rest of us, the book offers a great opportunity to start to develop a valuable skill set that may be particularly appreciated in discussing issues of racism on the island.

[Full Fullish on 01.03.06 at 10:02]

Lost in Flatts - I agree with Limey, we should do one side first, then examine the other side.

Great idea Phil!

[Jamahl Simmons on 01.03.06 at 10:32]

Phil,
I think this is an outstanding idea. I hope that the many people who have experienced everything from the horrors of segregation to the frustration of not being able to break the glass ceiling in their own country will participate in what could be a productive conversation. Let's hope that each of us can "listen without prejudice" and find a way to get our people talking to each other instead of at each other.

[Lurkatolic on 01.03.06 at 11:04]

Here's a few. On www.limeyinbermuda.com it was claimed that Bermuda would turn into a third world toilet and likely end up like Zimbabwe if we became independent. All manner of corrupt and violent acts have been used to justify this point from attacks on tourists to the rape/murder of Becky Middleton. It is not at all odd to see comments regarding certain hotspots in Africa used to predict the demise of an independent Bermuda. The PLP has even been compaired metaphorically to Nazi Germany as well. Yet, when all of these racist comments were made, very few white posters condemned it. Very few whites ever condemn white racism, even when using a pseudonym. And on the rare occasion when a white response to white racism is made, it cannot even remotely be compared to the venom whites dish out towards blacks.

But let there be even the slightest amount of racism coming from blacks, even if it is from 20 years ago, it is automatically given legitimacy. There was then a call for anecdotes from black posters. After having them dismissed repeatedly for lack of proof, it should be noted. One would think that the economic advantage whites possess today was all a white person would need to accept that discrimination did and does still take place in one form or another. But denial is still the name of the game on Limeyinbermuda.com. The only real racism in Bermuda comes from the PLP and angry blacks who can't get over the past.

[Rossini on 01.03.06 at 11:20]

I too think this is good Limey, as long as you don't allow those usual posters to adopt thier theme of "get over it" or "this has nothing to do with me because I was born in the 80s". I note the post from Mr. Jamahal Simmons. I would be interested to hear from him what he has dealt with a purported liberal within the right-wing confines of the establishment UBP. Some honesty about his own experiences at the hands of white people particularly those within in his party or its machinery would be useful start point. Like for example.....what has been the response from within to his call and that of Kim Swan for this kind of exercise.

[Raptor on 01.03.06 at 11:31]

Lurkatolic, It’s not unusual for someone to show up on LiB with a nasty or outrageous take on things. Sometimes I feel the crazies don’t even deserve a response; it just gets them more worked up. If you read the frequent posters here over time, you get a very good sense of their values, points of view, strengths, and weaknesses. What I see happen is that often it’s a frequent poster who will address an unreasonable poster, say over the Nazi/PLP comparison, which was out of place and shot down quite quickly. The Mugabe comparison (violence in one case, and economic collapse in another) has been addressed a number of times and the violence issue in particular especially deplored. Generally, I find that when one frequent poster addresses one of these issues, others let it be because it’s already been dealt with, and/or it's been dealt with so often, or they don’t think a productive dialog is likely.

Your perception comes up all the time. So I know personally that I will work harder to disown the inflammatory, generalizing, spiteful kind of words that show up, whenever I can, even if I feel it's been done before. There is something to be said for repetition.

[silencedogood on 01.03.06 at 11:35]

Great idea! I'm looking forward to reading and hopefully understanding.

[PorKy on 01.03.06 at 11:46]

It's a good idea as long as its people from the time of segregation. Not some young black guy born in 1980 going on about the "trials and tribulations" he's had to go through, as often happens.

[Lurkatolic on 01.03.06 at 11:48]

Raptor,

I have quietly admired your comments for several months now and regard you as an exception from the norm. You are the only poster who consistently points out areas that the others consistently turn a blind eye to. I was not satisfied at the white response to the Zimbabwe/Becky Middleton connection made maybe a year ago. While it may appear tangential to the anecdotes that other black posters have been challenged on, my belief is that is is central to the issue. If you want examples of discrimination that blacks face, just look at the general posting on LIB. The general tone of ridicule and hostility towards blacks who dare to tell another story is right in your face. I resent Limey asking us to present anecdotes when the evidence is right here on this blog after he wrote that Onada Syndrome column. How condescending to now ask for our stories without "proof".

[tong on 01.03.06 at 12:08]

Just a thought but maybe this needs to be a general forum as opposed to a polarized black white thing. There are many who fit into neither category or both, as well there are many other forms of prejudice that could be included... women glass ceilings, the gay population etc etc etc.

[Lost in Flatts on 01.03.06 at 12:25]

No offense lurkatolic, but if you're going to post on a forum, why argue that its very nature negates its effectiveness? Isn't that a bit like complaining that your bike doesn't work, then hopping on and riding away?

Perhaps the reason there wasn't more outcry at the Zimbabwe comments was because they're so ridiculous that they're not worth discussing. Further, if in this case you're citing an example of how whites typically just lump black leadership together, how exactly do you include your next comment on Nazi germany? And ditto on it not being worth the effort.

Bottom line, Limey is trying to offer an opportunity to get issues out there, rather than remaining unspoken or just taken as a given. Can't facts only help to better educate all of us, white, black, asian and other? Plus these will be personal anecdotes, stories with a face so to speak, making them all the more poignant, and hopefully effective in conveying just how serious a problem this is to those who doubt it.

[Lurkatolic on 01.03.06 at 12:51]

Lost in Flatts,

Limey asked for examples of white discrimination and I have provided several. My primary point is that most whites are not like Raptor. They cannot see, will deny, turn a blind eye or go silent on white racism. In your case I am pointing out the hypocrisy of whites on this board who have all sorts of sympathy for cases of black on white racism, but say nothing on the most grotesque examples of white on black racism. Your hostility towards my comment proves the point. Exactly what does your lack of comment seek to achieve? Why not ignore my comment in the same way that you ignore the Zimbabwe comment? From my black point of view reading Limeyinbermuda, I believe that whites are very reluctant to comment on white racism, expecially when it is being committed by someone they know. But there is no shortage of vitriol when they think they've witnessed black on white racism.

[Bermudian in Limeyland on 01.03.06 at 12:55]

PorKy I disagree with your point as any honest story is surely valid regardless of when it took place or who was affected. Your comment would suggest that racist beliefs ended at the same point segregation did.

[SmokingGun on 01.03.06 at 13:07]

"Your hostility towards my comment proves the point."

With all due respect Lurkatolic I see no reason why you would consider Lost in Flatts hostile in his post. One of the issues that needs to be careful about is crying wolf. People will have a hard time convincing others of a case of real racial discrimination ocurring when it might have just been a mis-understanding on their part.

The fact that you have posted items based on "yesterdays" posts and claiming LIB is all sorts of racially biased against blacks would seem to imply that you really only want to stir the pot and muddy the waters. Which is unfortunate because many of us would actually like to start building rather than continueing to tear down.

[tilti on 01.03.06 at 13:10]

lurkatolic, I do not believe that comments relating the PLP to Zimbabwe are in any way racially motivated, but concede that I could be wrong. I think the purpose of the example was it was fitting demonstration of what can happen when the state nationalizes private enterprise – which I think is what those comments are in reference to. Maybe it wasn't the best example because of the obvious overtones. Perhaps France could next time serve as a better/less racially tinged example of the same governmental economic phenomenon.

I think that there is a real opportunity on this thread to make some progress and there should be a sustained effort to not highlight perceived racism by posters. If it was there, it was almost certainly unintentional. If I have ever made a post that was inappropriate I apologize.

[tong on 01.03.06 at 13:23]

If you can create this screaming hole of sorts, a place where one can tell one's tale of racism prejudice etc for others to read but not necessarily comment on then it might act as a cathardic exercise for the poster as well as an informative life experience reference for others of all colours. That is the key, do not start this out by saying ok... Black people go! And then White People go! First of all those are way too broad a stroke to paint peopl with and you leave out many Bermudians. Lets make it something different than that which has come before it, let's start off by breaking that barrier of division by colour.
Go for it!

[The Limey on 01.03.06 at 13:54]

PorKy

I'm interested in any personal stories, whenever they occurred. Racism may be less overt than it used to be, but I think few people would suggest that it has been completely eliminated.

Lurkatolic

Respectfully, your "examples of white discrimination" are simply your opinions about some of the commentary on this site. Compare what you wrote with what Stuart Hayward wrote. I'm looking for personal anecdotes of discrimination or prejudice that has been directed specifically at you or your family. Whites can take issue with your opinions, but they can't argue with your life experiences and how they made you feel. That's also why I'm offering to post such stories on threads with comments disabled (permanently or temporarily). Whites - including me - need to listen to your stories, not respond with their opinions.

I'm not saying that your opinions on race are unimportant - just that I feel that any process of reconciliation should start on less controversial territory.

tong

Your points are well made. However, I want to keep this focused on stories where blacks have felt wronged. That's because as a white person, I think I should be trying to change the perceptions held by people of my own race for a change.

[Uncle Elvis on 01.03.06 at 13:56]

On www.limeyinbermuda.com it was claimed that Bermuda would turn into a third world toilet and likely end up like Zimbabwe if we became independent. All manner of corrupt and violent acts have been used to justify this point from attacks on tourists to the rape/murder of Becky Middleton. It is not at all odd to see comments regarding certain hotspots in Africa used to predict the demise of an independent Bermuda... Yet, when all of these racist comments were made, very few white posters condemned it. Very few whites ever condemn white racism, even when using a pseudonym.

Bullshit. The instance you cite was VERY quickly shut down by many of us here, myself included. Maybe we didn't react as vehemently as you wanted. Maybe we didn't jump all over the guy and accuse him and his entire family of being bigots over one stupid comment, but the points were very quickly negated and debunked and the comment was retracted later.
But I guess you didn't want to see that.
We ARE trying to help open our minds... all of our minds. Try reading what we are saying and not what you want us to be saying. Try reading the entire thread. Going batshit crazy on us because we don't attack someone for making a racist statement, lighting torches and getting the pitchforks out, isn't helping. Accusing us all of being a bunch of racists isn't going to get us on your side either.

Try helping.

[tong on 01.03.06 at 14:14]

Limey fair enough,

But don't you think that when we all realize that people are bad regardless of colour and people are good regardless of colour the faster we will look beyond our skintone. I am afraid that people aren't listening to race issues, that they have become numb to it because humans need to relate to understand.(regardless of the hundreds of posts here) If we focus on one race people then automatically see the differences not the similarities. This leads to further division. If we recognize that we (humankind) are all bad to each other then there are common shared experiences of hatred and prejudice then we can bond over our shared shit.
Otherwise it is a continuation of finger pointing, which has not worked up to this point.

[VolcanoC on 01.03.06 at 14:32]

First off, Limey, tremendous suggestion and I hope it will spur the growth of other movements supported by our government and independant organizations. We could compile the experiences of many who felt the pressure of segregation in the form of a book, video documentary and even websites to make the experiences people had to suffer through more known.

Lurkatolic and others of this thread,

I am a young Bermudian who was born in the 80s. I have no idea what it was like to grow up in the segregation era, however my father and grandparents most certainly did.

I want to see us move past this race issue as a young Bermudian because I am simply tired of my Grandmother and other family members voting for the PLP because they are "my party" - ie, the black party. They care little of, nor do they educate themselves on, the actual issues and blindly follow any direction our leadership choses to go.

I promise you this will not lead our island down a good path when people choose blind faith over education and choice. Black liberation meant freedom from being enslaved by others, the sheer problem is that our government often uses the issue of racism to enslave blacks not physically, but intellectually to their own desires.

My own father suffered a different form of racism growing up, he was the lightest skinned of an all black school and I can tell you his stories are not any that I would like to live through myself. He was targeted by the blacks for being closest to white while also being segregated in situations from whites for having "a lick of the tar brush" as he calls it.

I won't go into detail as it would be up to him to share his stories publically, however I will suggest that one of the biggest problems with racism on this island is blacks against other blacks, not whites against blacks.

It is statement's like "house niggers" that my generation cannot stand. When one black gets ahead by the only means available - hard work - others do nothing but try to pull him down rather then support his accomplishments. There are lots of poor white people who havn't gotten ahead simply because of their color despite what many black's claim.

Racism on our island truly runs deep and I commend Limey for any effort, especially this one, to help bring some sort of resolution to the issue.

[silencedogood on 01.03.06 at 14:43]

most whites are not like Raptor. They cannot see, will deny, turn a blind eye or go silent on white racism.
Posted by Lurkatolic on 01.03.06 at 12:51

Wow. Clearly we are not as open minded as yourself. Who was it you said was prejudiced again?

[Lost in Flatts on 01.03.06 at 15:13]

Lurkatolic - Yeah I didn't mean to sound hostile, it just seems as though you're directing your efforts in the wrong place. Nothing's perfect, not even LiB, but if it's a step in the right direction than it's better than nothing I figure.

I think the vast majority of posters on this site genuinely do have a desire to listen and learn, so, yeah, post away.

[SmokingGun on 01.03.06 at 15:31]

VolcanoC - I think you will find there more and more people who share your sentiments. It really does come down to calling people out on why they continue to use any kind of language that can be deemed divisive and offensive no matter what colour they may be. Especially those who are abusing their position of authority.

I personally think Dr. Brown should step up to the plate and apologise. And so should Burch and Cox. However I don't think they have the "testicular fortitude" to do so.

Well I guess Ms. Cox has an excuse I suppose....

[Onion on 01.03.06 at 16:18]

Here is my view on a TRC and I alluded to this yesterday. It is always therapeutic to get things off your chest about racist experiences. The problem that we as blacks often face is that many whites, including those on this blog, continue to cast doubt on the authenticity of such claims. In 2006 blacks are not being lynched in Bermuda and cases more often than not involve more subtle issues. The truth is many blacks would like to share their experiencs but if the receivers are going to put them through hoops to prove authenticity then I can't see many being bothered one way or another.

Yesterday Bill Cook said he viewed Michael Taylor's black on white anectdote as more authentic than any of ours because he did not use a pen name. So be it. I do not need his approval to validate my experiences. I have my reasons for using a pen name and that's that. If you want to characterize my experience as "urban legend" as some are saying on the "Plantation" blog then I am not bothered one way or the other. Stay ignorant. Stay marginalized. Your loss will be greater than mine.

But if this TRC is to work, and I believe it can, then blacks and whites have to be genuinley interested in listening to one another without judging.

The best thing that ever happened to this country was a change in government. Regardless of what you feel about the PLP if the UBP were still in power many whites would not be entering into such discourse on a website such as this. It has got people thinking. It has got white people talking. It has got whites to maybe take a brief minute to think about black people's experience being marginalised for centuries . No matter what you might say, under a UBP government, no black foreigner could come into bermuda and start a website called jamaicaninbermuda.com, or africaninbermuda.com and enjoy the freedom of speech that Limey enjoys - even if such freedom includes criticising the government. Hopefully people are realising that we need one another to move ahead as a society.

[Uncle Elvis on 01.03.06 at 16:26]

First, not "some" are saying. One person. And he was shot down REALLY quickly. Don't rewrite.

Second, re: the UBP and freedom of speech etc. etc.

I gotta call bullshit on that. Don't you think saying those sort of things are pretty much the same as a white man saying that Bermuda will collapse under the PLP?

Gross generalizations and rewriting events are not the way forward.
We all have to be in this together. All of us.

[Rossini on 01.03.06 at 16:48]

Since this post is supposed to be about experiences I'll share one of mine. As the son of an expatriate father, now with Bermuda status and a Bermudian mother I have an "odd" last name. Its European derivation often leads people to think that I / we are white.Picture a young man, aged 18 arriving at an interview for a scholarship, reporting his name, and being politely interviewed by a panel who noticeable wrote nothing, took no notes and who remarked in his presence "well you're not what we were expecting"....and who remarked as he left, clearly thinking he was out of earshot...."Did you know it was a nigger? Strike that one from the list...."

For the avoidance of doubt, the date was 1988.

[SmokingGun on 01.03.06 at 16:48]

"jamaicaninbermuda.com?" No we're making it in New Jersey and pretending it's made here.

Sorry Onion - couldn't resist.

I would agree with your post. By the fact that you can take the time to write thoughtful dialogue that I and many others can discuss in an open manner is progress in itself. I'm willing to have comments shut off so that we can digest before we discuss.

[Bill Cook on 01.03.06 at 16:50]

Anyone whose statements can be verified has a much better chance of confirming validity obviously.

If of course the only person you feel it important to satisfy is yourself why bother to post in the first place ?

Did they have websites here way back then ?

[Onion on 01.03.06 at 16:56]

Bill, blacks make statements in the hopes that others will believe them. But when they refuse to accpet them for lack of "evidence" then people just shut off. They won't break their neck to convince them and they don't care if you don't believe them. That's all I'm saying.

Websites weren't as big a thing as they are now but there certainly were email lists where people would bang out discussions as they do now on this blog. Bermuda College used to host an email forum that many Bermudians used to participate in.

[silencedogood on 01.03.06 at 17:08]

Onion,

You keep saying or implying alot about the white community. Is that any different from people painting all blacks with the same brush?

Having read Rossini's post I can say I don't doubt him/her. It is exactly the kind of story I think the Limey is soliciting so we can understand.

That being said, I don't have much to say about it now because I'm thinking on it. It certainly helps me understand his/her perspective and I'd like to hear more stories to see if this is a common experience.

I think you are characterizing most of us as dismissive when we are trying to be open to learning from others and expressing that here.

Why do you insist on characterizing us that way in spite of our comments? It seems you are the one who is dismissing all we are saying.

[Canuck in Bermuda on 01.03.06 at 17:20]

Rossini,

Thanks for being the first to post exactly what I was hoping for. (there may have been others in the last couple days but this is the first I saw) As a Canadian it's hard to grasp that things like that are still going on, but yet here we are.

Onion, I'm not sure if you included me in the "demanding proof" category, but I think this is a perfect illustration of what I (and I believe others) were hoping for. It's not that we want proof (which would just be absurd) but rather we just want to know what happens.

Often times in the last couple days posts asking for examples have been met with something along the lines of "if you don't believe us then you're just as bad, I can't belive this!" - trust me, I believe you that this crap still happens... I just haven't a clue what exactly "this crap" actually IS ya know? That's what it boils down to right there, it's not that any of us are looking for proof... we're just totally clueless, at least I am. Things like Rossini's story have SO much more impact and help guide those of us who haven't experienced these things into starting to understand.

[Guilden M. Gilbert, Jr. on 01.03.06 at 17:25]

Tilti,

"...I do not believe that comments relating the PLP to Zimbabwe are in any way racially motivated, but concede that I could be wrong. I think the purpose of the example was it was fitting demonstration of what can happen when the state nationalizes private enterprise – which I think is what those comments are in reference to."

The PLP has never stated or implied that it would nationalise any private entity should Bermuda become an independent country. That being the case where is your basis for support of the comment?

Why not look at what transpired in Zimbabwe and then figure out for yourself how the author of those words could begin to compare it to Bermuda, if his comment was not racially motivated?

Once you look at the histiry of Zimbabwe, maybe then you will be able to fully understand why some of us take the comment as being racicially motivated.

[Onion on 01.03.06 at 17:32]

Silencedogood,

I don't want to generalize. I know many of you are interested in hearing other people's stories. I am certainly interested to hear theirs. Forgive me if I came across as generalizing.

[ace on 01.03.06 at 17:42]

...."Did you know it was a nigger? Strike that one from the list...."

OMG!!!! The use of the "n" word is horrific enough but to refer to you as "it"?

How did you control yourself? Damn, I'm sorry that happened to you mate. That whole panel should have been exposed for the pieces of shit they are.

[Guilden M. Gilbert, Jr. on 01.03.06 at 17:45]

Tilti,

I am not saying I agree with what transpired with the cement company and will not claim to know all the details but from what I can tell the lease on the property, which is owned by WEDCO was up and the cement company was offered another piece of property.

As I understand it the owner walked away from the equipment due to what it would cost to move. The cement plant still had to produce cement and someone had to run it.

Now much of what I said may not be completely accurate, as I said, I do not claim to know all the details. However, to compare this with Zimbabe was WAY over the top and unnecessary.

[loki on 01.03.06 at 17:55]

"That whole panel should have been exposed for the pieces of shit they are."

I would LOVE to know who those fuckers are. Unbelievable! And this was 1988?

[tilti on 01.03.06 at 17:57]

Guilden, I know part of the story. You have a successful business that has been running flawlessly for decades and providing the island with a necasarry good. For no reason you want to move them - that is ridiculous, and they knew that it would have been too expensive to relocate - they were cement silos. WEDCO not only wanted the property, they knew they would essentially inherent an up and running business with all the infastructure that was generated over years of business. It is in essence a similar situation to the bank calling in mortgages.

[Bill Cook on 01.03.06 at 18:02]

Rossini,

I am not knowledgable of the process of selection for scholarships and probably it varies with those putting up the scholarships.

The fairist way would be based on academic acheivement based on a points system where the applicants were selected on merit and only then in the case of similar qualifications would some further decision be needed.

The problem may be that those funding the scholarships may reserve the right to choose anyone they please but if that were the case then if advertised for applicants publicly an independent selection board should be given the job.

That way it would eliminate what you experienced, I have always been wary of selection boards for very good reasons.

I hope you went on to further your education in other ways.

[The Limey on 01.03.06 at 18:05]

A clarification:

My preference with these anecdotes is that each be given their own thread. A lot of people who read this site don't read the comments and I'd like them to hear these stories too.

However, Rossini has said that he would prefer his story to be left in the comments of this thread, so I'm going to respect that.

[SmokingGun on 01.03.06 at 18:10]

Aside of the fact that the rent was at a very low rate based on a 40 year old contract, WEDCO effectivly was trying to strong arm a private company into having to go public and sell shares.

20/20 hindsight Jim Butterfield should have just accepted the rate hike instead of trying to leverage his monopoly. At the end of the day the land lord is within their rights to demand a higher rent based on market rates but they shouldn't go beyond that. That's where people start wondering what the Government's motive is.

For the record I'm against monopolies so I don't really have a whole lot of sympathey for either parties.

[Raptor on 01.03.06 at 18:11]

Rossini, your story makes my skin crawl.

The words directed at you and all that was behind them are despicable.

Bill, do you want Rossini to disclose the names of the people/organization who treated him thus so that his story can be verified?

[SmokingGun on 01.03.06 at 18:15]

I think he should. Screw 'em. Although a lawyer would probably try to rip him apart over it. Which sucks on top of the insult.

[NoVote on 01.03.06 at 18:25]

Limey,

I think that this is an excellent idea.

However, I would urge you to be explicit about the way in which these stories are to be expressed.

They need to be factual only (no commentary, opinion, or conjecture), relate to the specific feelings of the individual concerned only, and present only established/proven facts that are relevant from a contextual perspective.

There is the risk otherwise that they could become inflammatory.

Stuart Hayward's account was excellent and did all of the above, as he left the reader to draw conclusions based upon facts.

[stuart J Hayward on 01.03.06 at 18:39]

Limey et al,

In the meetings of several groups I chair, we follow these three principles:

to speak without being offensive

to listen without being defensive

to disagree without being disagreeable.

If we agree, as a condition of taking part, to guide our conversations with these principles and to remind each other when we slip, we could indeed move toward reconciliation.

A great idea, Limey. You have my support.

[Bill Cook on 01.03.06 at 18:55]

Raptor

Only if it would prevent another young person undergoing or experiencing the same treatment.

That would be at the discretion of Rossini and the possibility that it may adversly affect him in some way.

I am assuming that your question was in the spirit finding solutions.

[Guilden M. Gilbert, Jr. on 02.03.06 at 09:33]

Tilti,

I clearly said that I did not agree with the way that things transpired but what did transpired can in no way be compared to what happened in Zimbabwe. To compare the two is absurd and extreme and from my perspective smacks of racial undertone. Call me paranoid but why else would somebody compare this matter with Zimbabwe?

As SmokingGun said the landlord has every right to demand higher rent to meet the market conditions. How is that so wrong?

[Rossini on 02.03.06 at 10:18]

Those who a part of that panel where those comments were made are still in positions of prominence (although one has since died) and as such I will not be disclosing anything more than the story.I have to say I find Mr. Cook's reaction curious. No real outrage but rationalising the process and saying lots of roundabout stuff....very odd....I'm trying not to read anything into it. I regret to say that there are more experiences like that which I have had and I refuse to accept that I am somehow singled out for such treatment.

[Onion on 02.03.06 at 10:30]

Rossini,

I have to admit that I also find Bill's comments a little curious as well.

Bill says:

"The problem may be that those funding the scholarships may reserve the right to choose anyone they please but if that were the case then if advertised for applicants publicly an independent selection board should be given the job.

That way it would eliminate what you experienced, I have always been wary of selection boards for very good reasons."

Bill, help me out here, 'cause maybe I'm just not getting this, but isn't the fact that the interviewer called Rossini a niggar the crux of the problem?

[silencedogood on 02.03.06 at 11:08]

No problem Onion. Thanks.

Rossini,

I have to agree with everyone above--I'm amazed at your restraint. Sorry it happened man. Let's make sure it doesn't anymore.

[tilti on 02.03.06 at 11:09]

Guilden, People used - I would assume - the example of Zimbabwe bc everyone knows about it and it is in all of the papers. I stated earlier it was probably a poor choice of analogy and that next time we could single out France or 1970's England which have many of the same problems.

[Bill Cook on 02.03.06 at 11:16]

The point of the comment was that we can not reverse what happened to you Rossini repugnant that it is that such treatment occured and in trying to find a way to prevent it happening to another I look at ways to assist in preventing it.

It needs more than exposure it needs such important decision making not left in the hands of those with the power to discriminate.

Outraged yes that such a thing happened not that long ago but more importantly to prevent it happening again.

Sorry I cannot explain it more clearly.

[Lurkatolic on 02.03.06 at 11:40]

"Whites can take issue with your opinions, but they can't argue with your life experiences and how they made you feel. That's also why I'm offering to post such stories on threads with comments disabled (permanently or temporarily). Whites - including me - need to listen to your stories, not respond with their opinions."

On the contrary, Limey, what I have observed on Limeyinbermuda.com is that whenever someone black claimed that racism takes or took place in Bermuda a demand for absolute proof is made. If you didn't get that promotion, it was because of X, Y and Z, and not because of racism. Was the UBP a party for the white establishment? Prove it. You got denied an apartment, well let's wait and see what the HRC has to say about it. Institutionalized racism is regarded as a myth by many on limeyinbermuda.com.

Perhaps Limeyinbermuda.com is turning a corner, but I think it has more to do with Onion calling white posters out over their response to Michael Taylor's comment. You were caught red handed, so to speak. As regards, Stuart Hayward's comment, it could be dismissed just as any thing that Jake, Onion or Guilden have been saying repeatedly. Maybe Hayward was at the top of his class, but still didn't have higher grades than those who received the scholarships? Maybe the winners were more well-rounded than Hayward? Or maybe he was too much of a liberal, and even a liberal white person would not have received an award. Without question, if Stuart got a little hot under the collar, even if it was fully justified, he would be told that he has Onada Syndrome, and that he's just bitter about not winning those scholarships.. This has been the modus operandi on this website, but I do welcome a change as long as stories from today will now be accepted without a "nigger qualifier" as in Rossini's story.

Elvis,

"Bullshit. The instance you cite was VERY quickly shut down by many of us here, myself included. Maybe we didn't react as vehemently as you wanted. Maybe we didn't jump all over the guy and accuse him and his entire family of being bigots over one stupid comment, but the points were very quickly negated and debunked and the comment was retracted later."

I will go and read that thread again, but my recollection is that while there were only a couple who stated that they disagreed with the connection made between what happened to Becky Middleton, Zimbabwe and independence, I do not recall white posters specifically condemning the person who made that remark. The hypocrisy of it all is that whenever Jake made some kind of heated comment he was attacked from just about all quarters. He was attacked brutally. Even today blacks get cussed out and banned for some remarks, but Tony Brannon can call for a military coup and he only gets told to chill out (Same thing for Rev Goat). These zealots don't get written off, and their past comments are still seen to be credible/worthy. But blacks are not afforded the same kindness on this blog. Had one of us told the same story as Michael Taylor, it would have been dismissed. In his case it has been accepted as fact and practically the norm for Bermuda today (which is utterly ridiculous).

My anecdote stands - Limeyinbermuda.com is a great place to see how whites only get outraged over alleged black racism and will rarely if ever attack another white person for their bigotry or even calls of violence. It is not a place for objective commentary, and is mostly a place for whites to vent their spleen at the PLP Government. That is my anecdote, love it or hate it.

[SmokingGun on 02.03.06 at 12:10]

Instead of Zimbabwe maybe it should be Jamaica. The democratic socialism under Michael Manley saw many white family owned businesses, even plantations, being nationalised only to be driven under. Many affected people felt they had no choice but to up and leave heading back to the UK.

Bermuda could very easily suffer a mini version of what Jamaica went through. Forcing a company to have to sell shares to the public in order to continue to rent government owned land in some ways is a form of nationalisation and would certainly raise an eyebrow or two.

There is an interesting interview given by PM Manley to Ebony Magazine. It is quite revealing and in many ways shows a reflection of Bermuda's current government body. Right down to Fidel Castro's role.

If interested the article is at:
http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1077/is_n4_v45/ai_8325369

[SmokingGun on 02.03.06 at 12:27]

Lurkatolic - spinning is a great form of exercise but it's usually done in a gym.

For a little more exercise why don't you spend a few moments going through Limey's web-site and pull together some of the "facts" so that you can back up what I personaly consider your gross exageration and extreme mis-representation of LiB. And while you are at it, maybe you could get Limey to pull out of the garbage a slew of items that he found offensive and didn't allow on his site.

I would not be surprised if you found out in the end that LiB is quite well balanced. Not perfect by any means, but relatively fair to both sides. But you'll have to do the digging to figure that out.

[thisgrassman on 02.03.06 at 12:39]

Lurkatolic,

I hope Limey lets me re-hash this below to demonstrate that in trying to keep threads relevant and prevent things spinning off into confrontation – it can appear the whack-jobs who sometimes post their shite are tolerated. This text was from the thread "Another independence referendum"............

silencio,

I roll my eyes everytime I hear some spastic comment about Bermuda becoming the next Zimbabwe - but what can you do? Entering into a debate is obviously pointless.

Posted by thisgrassman on 20.02.06 at 12:09

Because I have a personal opinion based on information and experiences I'm not the sharpest tool in the shed? To say that the PLP is making some very Mugabe-esque moves makes me "not the sharpest tool in the shed" and a "crazy white"?
Excuse me for a minute but, you have no clue about my education level or how intelligent I am. To call me stupid for my personal opinions is bullshit.

Posted by flee on 20.02.06 at 17:03

Flee’s post was in response to my post above from which Limey edited my comment that flee was obviously “not the sharpest tool in the shed”

Limey then deleted my entire post in response to flee’s little rant which I note below for the record…

“Oh sorry pal …..I didn’t mean to piss off a Rhodes Scholar. (I dare you to make the connection)”

[The Limey on 02.03.06 at 12:49]

thisgrassman makes a fair point - because I frown on personal attacks on other commenters, sometimes some of the slapdowns do get deleted.

As Stuart put it, the trick is "to disagree without being disagreeable" - even when you're disagreeing with the disagreeable.

[The Limey on 02.03.06 at 18:09]

Lurkatolic

There's a difference between telling a story for its own sake and trying to use one to establish the validity of a generalisation, assumption or accusation that you make.

Consider Stuart's story again. He didn't say, "I was turned down for every scholarship I made because I criticised members of the government at some public meetings". If he had, he would have crossed into the realm of conjecture, opening up the possibility for us to disagree with his analysis. Instead, he just asked us to listen to what happened to him. By not telling us what to think about the reasons for his failure to get a scholarship he forced us to wonder, "What would I think if that had happened to me?". Rossini's story did the same.

You have yet to relate any such personal stories. You say, "Limeyinbermuda.com is a great place to see how whites only get outraged over alleged black racism and will rarely if ever attack another white person for their bigotry or even calls of violence... That is my anecdote, love it or hate it.". That's not an anecedote, that's an opinion. Moreover, it contains an accusation about the site and generalises about those who comment here.

You're entitled to that opinion, of course, but equally others are entitled to disagree with you. That would not be possible with a personal anecdote. How many people have tried to argue with Stuart or Rossini?

[Canuck in Bermuda on 03.03.06 at 10:24]

Lurkatolic,

Asking for a story is NOT asking for "proof" - plllleeeease drop that. I/we don't NEED proof - nobody here other than maybe the odd whackjob argues that there are still problems, and problems need fixing.

The story/anecdote angle comes in because we want to know HOW the problem manifests. Short of doing the same thing as the guy who wrote "Black like me" I'll never know... so tell me a story or ten and put me in your shoes.

It's kinda like global warming... a generally accepted fact (whether it's natural or manmade is a little debateable but whatever). Now, I don't need stories about what happens or what could happen to PROVE it to me... BUT knowing that information helps me recognize it, and even helps be try to do a little bit about it by applying some cause/effect logic.

It's just simply NOT about "proof" - I wish I could explain it more clearly. It's about finding out HOW it works and by extension how to stop this crap from happening.

[tong on 03.03.06 at 11:06]

Limey,

think the idea as I have stated before is a good one, however I still maintain that if you are truly interested in moving things forward this should not be a racially exclusive thing. That simply serves to polarize us further. By allowing all views, then you educate white, black, Portugeuse, Asian, mixed race etc etc etc. I think people need to be able to relate, otherwise they won't listen. The point is to get people to hear what's happening/happened, not feel that they are about to be blamed for things of a racist nature, which for many I think means immediate tune out.

AmI way off the mark here? I am not sure, but it feels like a plan that is rooted in good intentions but will simply fall by the wayside as it is exclusionary in its process. Let's include all to move forward together.

[Onion on 03.03.06 at 11:54]

Smoking Gun says

"Instead of Zimbabwe maybe it should be Jamaica. The democratic socialism under Michael Manley saw many white family owned businesses, even plantations, being nationalised only to be driven under. Many affected people felt they had no choice but to up and leave heading back to the UK."

I think people did not like the comparison with Zimbabwe because it insinuated that blacks were "taking revenge" on white businesses, as is the perception in Zimbabwe.

The dynamics in Jamaica are different again. It was not just white owned family businesses but all profitable private businesses that were being nationalised. This included black, Chinese, Indian, Syrian and white owned businesses and many middle class left to the UK and US.

The difference between Jamaica and Bermuda is that firstly Jamaica has more of a class problem than a race problem. Secondly, Manley sought to rectify this by introducing social democracy, which included forging a very tight economic bond with Castro. Manley sought to even change the thinking of his citizens. In Jamaica today, domestic workers are referred to as "helpers" not "maids" all because of Manley's campaign in the 70s to eradicate elitist thinking. He also took steps which devalued the Jamaican dollar literally overnight.

This government has taken some small steps to put in place a social agenda to level the playing field, but ironiclaly many blacks would say they have not done enough. As far as establishing a relationship with Cuba, this has gone no further than selling a few buses to them or having the gombeys perform down there.

[SmokingGun on 03.03.06 at 12:39]

"The difference between Jamaica and Bermuda is that firstly Jamaica has more of a class problem than a race problem." - Onion

I think this is one thing that Bermuda is heading towards. That's why it's so important to get the race equation sorted out. There will be just as many blacks, whites and anyone in between being left behind as we continue down a path of insulation and protectionism. Instead of worrying about who got what in the past and who ends up with what in the future we need to make sure that everyone gets equal opportunities today.

By the way, Michael Manley was a charismatic leader who did have some good ideas. He also had some bad ones. And some were doozies.

[Canuck in Bermuda on 03.03.06 at 15:59]

"Instead of worrying about who got what in the past and who ends up with what in the future we need to make sure that everyone gets equal opportunities today."

I think that's a good way to look at it. We need to fix NOW first. I'm not for a second suggesting that the wrongs of the past are unimportant... but it seems sometimes like the focus is so much on the past that the present/future is in danger of sliding away. A mending of the past does very little good without a future to take advantage of it, but a solid future would allow past wrongs to be addressed properly

[J Starling on 03.03.06 at 17:43]

Dear Onion, per your comments that Bermuda's problem was one of race and Jamaica's was one of class. I think you are mistaken. Through historical accident Bermuda's class system (upper/middle/lower/capitalist/worker) has been blurred by race. Though no longer as rigid as it once was, the upper class here was traditionally white, the middle class white and black mix (maybe 'light' black?) and the lower class predominantly black. Race has been exploited to divide and rule, preventing a unified labour struggle. Today the struggle is deformed precisely for this reason. Rather than working for a truly workers democracy the PLP leadership seems bent on replacing a white oligarchic state with a black oligarchic state. The sooner the workers realise that one is just as bad as the other, the sooner we can get back on track with the genuine progressive labour struggle. This cancer of racism is one of the cheif obstacles in our path, the other being a culture of entitlement and consumerism. Ours is a class struggle blurred by racial castes.

[Bill Cook on 03.03.06 at 18:24]

JS

You are probably close to the truth.

We tend to think in terms of upper and middle classes primarily as white when in fact there are clearly class divisions in black society of both upper and middle as well as lower etc and while not to the extent as with whites the gap is closing quickly, whites are a little myopic in that regard I think.

Whether race is used to divide to prevent cohesion with the workers is less certain but I agree it is used by both races to further a form of control of all.

My own view is that eventually the real division will be based on socia economic reality rather than race and indeed is already well established in Bermuda perhaps better than any other country interestingly.

[j Starling on 03.03.06 at 20:30]

Thank you for your comments Mr. Cook. We all have our biases, conscious or other. I see the world in terms of class warfare as opposed to race or sectarian strife. Time will tell which is more true. I am inclined to believe that class warfare is more progressive and more likely the meat of the matter than race. Our biases, our world views, influence all of our actions.