The Berkeley scandal deepens

The allegations made by former Berkeley project engineer Gabriel Martel in Friday’s Mid Ocean News will do little to restore public faith in the competence and honesty of some of those involved in the beleaguered project.

Mr. Martel alleges that the new school is in breach of dozens of safety regulations that would cost millions of dollars to fix; that the Government attempted to suppress a report he wrote highlighting these failures, and had him fired and kicked off the Island because of it; and that a senior civil servant deliberately delayed work on the project to push up costs.

Mr. Martel’s explanation of why he was fired seems to rest on hearsay. “Apparently [Works and Engineering project manager David Butterfield] indicated to Somers that if I wasn’t removed, Somers would not get the next project,” he said. However his observations of the safety breaches were made first-hand, just over a month ago. This ought to make them easy to verify or disprove.

Because of the potential consequences, you would have thought that Minister of Works and Engineering, Lt. Col. David Burch, would have treated the allegations with the utmost seriousness. Instead, he attempted to discredit both Mr. Martel (characterising him as a “disgruntled employee”) and the Mid Ocean News. (I find it ironic that the man who is happy to call people “house niggers” was apparently too squeamish to utter the words “Mid Ocean News”, instead referring to the paper as “that rag” and “that thing that comes out on a Friday”.)

The “disgruntled employee” explanation is improbable because Mr. Martel catalogued his complaints before he was fired. And if Col. Burch believes that the Mid Ocean has got its facts wrong, he should sue them.

However Col. Burch did eventually acknowledge that Mr. Martel’s claims warrant further investigation. “Clearly we will look at those and it will be for all of those organisations to answer,” he said when pressed.

By chance, Friday was also the day that Finance Minister Paula Cox revealed that the total cost of the project has risen to $125 million. However that figure still doesn’t include some of the costs incurred as a result on the ongoing arbitration process with the original contractor, ProActive Management.

The latest allegations come just weeks after the results of the police investigation into the ProActive performance bond were passed to the DPP. The investigation, initiated by the Auditor General in January 2003, was to find out what happened to the $700,000 of public money that ProActive were supposed to use to purchase a performance bond - essentially a $7 million insurance policy. Despite the massive cost overruns on the project, originally budgeted at $68 million, it is believed that no claim has yet been made against the bond.

Could there be further police investigations as a result of Mr. Martel's claims?

Comments

[ken on 20.02.06 at 12:00]

Full Fullish,

And I am sure that you feel the UBP can accomplish this (as they were so good at it before!)

" Here's the model government I want. One that is for the good of the people, ALL of the people. Not just the black ones, or just the white ones, or whatever F'n colour, race or creed you wish to categorise, if such a thing makes you feel better. One that is accountable to The People"...

Give me a break...the UBP was accountable to only the rich predominantly white and if they are re-elected there will be more of the same.

All everyone spouts off is the cost of Berkeley. It is becoming redundant! It is over budget and over-time. Guess what??? There is not a damn thing any one can do to fix that at this point. It is a fiasco! It is a scandal! Fine! But repeating it over and over and over doesn't make it any moreso a fiasco.

[SmokingGun on 20.02.06 at 12:08]

"Well the rumours around are that trucks would leave the docks and other areas full of materials and supplies headed for the Berkeley site and only show up half or three quaters full. So where did it go?"

Google will likely re-fresh their satelite photo's in the next year or so.
Should be interesting to see who's house grew proportionately to the timing of this Berkeley project.....

[silencedogood on 20.02.06 at 12:11]

Tiger Bay,

You have made two very profound statements today. Hats off!

Chewbacca defense.
Posted by Tiger Bay on 20.02.06 at 10:49

AND

That possibility bears investigation, not evasion and coverup.
Posted by Tiger Bay on 20.02.06 at 11:04

Ken,
All we can hope is that with the next capital project i.e. the police station, that things are run smoothly. If not u have the option of booting the PLP out.

Actually no. It’s not. If all we do is “hope” then the next project will be exactly the same. Pardon my crudeness, but as the saying goes “Wish in one hand, shit in the other. See which fills up first.”

You readily concede that $62 million wasted is an outrage, but then immediately try to smooth it over with arguments of “the UBP” did it too. Well great. How much mileage can that get you? They have not been in power for 8 years now. If they were and they were $62 million over budget you had better believe that I would be pitching a fit, as would most on this blog. Maybe that played a role in their ouster, have you thought of that?

And yes, Guilden, not being old enough or being away working/studying is a valid excuse not to have criticized the UBP. Perhaps you wrote a treatise on good government while in grammar school and are tuned into the finer points of local Bermudian politics during your studies, career and travels abroad.

If so, hats off, but I doubt most people have your multitasking abilities. I also question why you assume no one on this blog did?

I hate government corruption by all stripes and while I doubt it can be eliminated entirely if there is a glaring example of it in front of our face I don’t want to ignore it.

Maybe we should conduct an independent, objective study which estimates the amount of money pilfered by the UBP since the existence of the PLP and convert that amount to 2006 dollars. Then the PLP can steal or waste that amount with a 25% bonus for being the party in power. Would this satisfy everyone in the “UBP did it” crowd?

But after that point can we at least hold them accountable? If the amount allocated to the UBP is less than $62 million can we then hold the PLP accountable for Berkeley? Is that sufficient for you Ken, Guilden and Rosssini?

Or, we could accept that wrongs occurred in the past and try to learn from that experience to prevent government corruption on a going forward basis. Either way, let’s stop using the lame and tired excuse of two wrongs making a right.

You list corrupt PLP or no PLP as the only options Ken, but have you ever considered the possibility that the PLP doesn't have to be corrupt? Maybe if you and other PLP supporters held your leadership accountable you could oust the corrupt individuals, elect those PLP candidates who will act in the best interests of their country and everyone wins. PLP stays for you, significantly less corruption for me.

Lastly, don’t put words in my mouth. Although sarcastic, my post did not insinuate the building was going to fall down or take the MON as gospel. But not looking into serious allegations of faulty workmanship in a capital project where the existence of mismanagement and a budget overrun of $62 million is common knowledge—that’s just stupid.

You will get the leadership that you tolerate. If you are satisfied with a government that is corrupt but ideologically congruent with your own beliefs that’s fine, but don’t piss down my neck and tell me its raining.

[Guilden M. Gilbert, Jr. on 20.02.06 at 12:13]

Tiger,

Just for the record, I was not in primary school. In fact, at the time I was sitting on the St. Georges South branch of the UBP, Grace Bell was the MP. I took Grace, as the constituency MP and the UBP to task over the airport nonsense.

I was also on the National Youth Council when I took Gerald Simons, the then Minister of Education to task over the school system. I expressed my concern to him at that time and I told him his model was tried and had failed in many other jurisdictions and that it would nt work to improve the school system in Bermuda either. To date I have been correct.

[Full Fullish on 20.02.06 at 12:16]

Ken

Where did I say that the UBP can do this better? Did you not read where I said that the UBP did it before as well?

How in the hell is a $65 million budget overrun redundant? You may be happy to write off that amount, but not me, and I'll bet I'm not alone. I want to know how such a screwup occured. Politicians love people like you, your so complacent that you'll let them get away with anything. And you bet your ass if it was the UBP I'd be all over them as well.

$65 Million, and no that didn't come with a complimentary bottle of KY incase you're feeling sore.

[ken on 20.02.06 at 12:19]

Full fullish,

U obviously believe the UBP can do better as you are the chair or on the executive of your branch of the UBP. So by default, I would expect that your loyalty would lie there, and that you also would believe they would do better. If not, then why are u serving them?

Secondly, please leave your fetishes out of the discussion.

[Guilden M. Gilbert, Jr. on 20.02.06 at 12:23]

Silence,

"And yes, Guilden, not being old enough or being away working/studying is a valid excuse not to have criticized the UBP. Perhaps you wrote a treatise on good government while in grammar school and are tuned into the finer points of local Bermudian politics during your studies, career and travels abroad."

That is not a valid excuse. If you want to get involved in the politics of your country then you need to know the history of politics in your country. I was not around when slavery was still legal but I know enough about it to condemn it. I was not around when Hitler persecuted the Jews but I know enough about it to condemn it.

I was not old enough to have first hand knowlegde of the 1976 riots but I do know that we had to pay for the troops sent by Britain.

Ignorance is not an excuse. If you want to learn you being with humbleness and ask questions about things you do not know. Also you don't ask questions only of those who hold the same views as yourself, ask those who oppose your views.

[ken on 20.02.06 at 12:23]

Also full fullish...

No one has said that there isn't an issue or that there shouldn't be an issue with the cost overruns. I don't think you can find evidence of that unless you take something out of context. This thread is primarily about the physical plant of the building and if it is in fact a dangerous place.

But like Guilden has said, you all are so blinded by your disdain for the PLP that you take anything you hear, and run with it. Its sad actually that you cannot bear to be objective. I am sure there have been many threads in the past discussing the cost overruns. Find that thread and discuss it there.

[SmokingGun on 20.02.06 at 12:28]

Limey - might I suggest a new pol?

Should the Berkeley Project be investigated by our new Ombudsman (lady) in conjunction with an outside party totally unassociated with government?

Yes or No.

[Simon on 20.02.06 at 12:29]

So yet another thread degenerates into a UBP/PLP issue. Surely everyone wants to be certain that this school is fit to use to to understand why the overruns were so significant. I would call on the Auditor-General to investigate and make his findings known publicly.

[silencedogood on 20.02.06 at 13:04]

Guilden, Guilden, Guilden,

You criticized people for not condemning UBP corruption when it occurred. That is very different from saying people don't condmen it retroactively after knowing the history.

It is very clear that I am condemning any and all past corruption. But what do you want me to do? I can't very well go into as much depth on it as on current events, nor would there be much value.

The UBP is not the party in power. They are not conducting capital projects. They have no say in the government budget. They will be conducting no future capital projects. As I said before, learn from the past to improve the future.

Yes the UBP has wronged Bermuda in the past but the PLP is wronging it right now! Which is worse? In order to criticize the present government must we cite all similar governments' offences back to the 1600's? There is a difference between knowing your history and being a captive to it.

I'm not even calling for UBP to take over because of this issue. I'd be satisfied if the PLP cleaned house by investigating and ridding itself of corrupt members. Granted, that would probably eliminate most of its current leaders, but the party would have my respect.

If not, then I'd give the UBP a shot. If they did not learn from their past mistakes then boot them out too and give the PLP another shot. Sooner or later someone in either party might figure out that voters care about good government and make an attempt at producing it.

Will you please stop trying to invalidate the views of those unwilling to accept present corruption because the opposition was also corrupt in the past.

It is dissapointing to me that this is the only part of my post you respond to.

[thereyougo on 20.02.06 at 13:19]

I am really enjoying the fact that there are more PLP supporters on this thread than usual to make the debate more interesting and not so one sided.

I also am interested that finally someone is naming the actual UBP scandals that are often alluded to but never named. I would love to know more about those.

The biggest nightmare of the UBP is the return-to-segregation-school-system which was not even a scandal but rather the dumbest policy decision of the last many decades with horrific results to come for everyone.

Guilden I agree, it is important to educate ourselves about our history, the problem is that as a white Bermudian it is more difficult to find the anti UBP history because few whites appears to believe it or know it. Why is that?

This thread reminds me of the OJ Simpson trial, the whites in the US never did seem to get what the blacks were saying about the verdict and I see that here.

[Tiger Bay on 20.02.06 at 13:24]

For the record, the Auditor General did conduct a special review of the Tynes Bay and Westgate projects, and two of the Cedarbridge project. These identified shortcomings both on the side of the contractors and Government's own project management.

These projects, however, are chickenfeed when compared to the mismanagement and corruption of the Berkeley project.

[Two Cents on 20.02.06 at 13:24]

One thing that I feel is being overlooked by a couple of people on this thread is that YES the UBP took advantage of us all by offering contracts to certain companies, keeping the money between “their friends & families’ companies, etc, but it seemed that everyone knew about it, and that was considered “the way Bermuda did politics". I've heard the term "Politricks" used to define this.

The PLP seem to have an "even more secretive ulterior" agenda; by all means give contracts to “friends of the party”, buy cars from companies you’re supported by, prefer to do business with “people who look like you”, but in addition there always seems to be another covert, money making hidden agenda it’s as if they’re not satisfied with the usual spoils of Bermuda politics and feel they deserve even more because they waited so long to get into power. It seems there are very few “honest” politians in Bermuda, who truly have Bermuda’s best interests at heart. I understand that two wrongs don't make a right....but come on !!

[Guilden M. Gilbert, Jr. on 20.02.06 at 13:28]

Silence,

I am not trying to invalidate the views of those unwilling to accept present corruption. Corruption disgusts me no matter who is guilty of it.

My response to you was due to the fact that this thread has turned from the issue of the structural integrity of the Berkeley project to the PLP mishandling this project. As Ken said this matter on the mishandling has been beaten to death and nobody is disputing that.

You and many others are simply prepared to accept any and everything negative about the PLP without first confirming whart is and what isn't fact. My comments were not as you and some others would believe them to be, "the UBP did it so the PLP shoudl do it too." I was merely point out that the microscope under which the PLP is being judged was not there for the UBP. My feeling is that because most of those speaking out against the PLP are UBP supporters and would be unlikely to highlight the wrongs of the UBP.

I take the PLP to task just as quickly as I take the UBP to task because while I am a PLP supporter I still believe that the betterment of the country must come before any benefit to party or party member.

[Guilden M. Gilbert, Jr. on 20.02.06 at 13:32]

Tiger,

This is exactly what I am talking about. For you the UBP simply had shortcomings but everything related to the PLP has to be linked to corruption.

This is why some of us get pissed at people like you. Your views are simply one-side, you have yet to show any balance in your view, which is fine as you are entitled to be biased, but don't get your back up against a wall when some of us take you to task on your views, that too is our entitlement.

[Rossini on 20.02.06 at 13:33]

"thereyougo"....how many more scandals / conflicts of interest would you like.....the other supplier of uniforms for government was Woman's Shop...does the name David Gibbons ring any bells.....The pitiful thing is if the UBP supporters on here are squealing now, wait till they get a government with some real courage to do the right thing around here and not just tinker with the small stuff. Who is government's insurer...ah Argus where Gerald "I wrecked Education in Bermuda" Simons is the CEO. Who gets millions in rent from government buildings...ah Fernance "I once ran and chaired a UBP executive" Perry......This government purchased 4 cras from Peugeot and you would have thought the world had ended. By the way, the language on this site is becoming nasty...all the f's and whatnot are just terrible...please contain your venom pending your return to power. This too shall pass.

[Tiger Bay on 20.02.06 at 13:34]

There's more than enough blame to go around on this project. The PLP must shoulder their share - caused by their attempts to use the project for social engineering, and then to cover things up when they went astray.

The civil service must also take responsibility; the project was not properly defined nor contracted, and W&E's project management has been sorely lacking.

[SmokingGun on 20.02.06 at 13:38]

Guilden, with all due respect, can you not understand why most people today will look at anything the PLP does or has been involved in with a great deal of scepticism?

[Yellow Book on 20.02.06 at 13:42]

The only way to stop the cross fire of accusations is to have an open and transparent contracting process for every government contract over $10,000.

1. Publish contracting rules for all Government departments.
2. Properly define the deliverables.
3. Standard format for vendor response.
4. Publish the winning bid.

[Guilden M. Gilbert, Jr. on 20.02.06 at 13:46]

SmokingGun,

Are you certain that you are speaking for "most" people?

I think a large number of people look at all government activity with skepticism, in Bermuda or anywhere else.

[Rossini on 20.02.06 at 13:46]

SmokingGun, I understand you. Its the same feeling I got when I heard Grant Gibbons talk about economic empowerment; its the same feeling I get when I hear John Barritt talk about criminal justice; its the same feeling I get when I hear Trevor Moniz talk about MPs declaring their interests; and its the same feeling I get whenever Micahel Dunkley speaks....by the way did Trevor Moniz ever explain how it was that his firm did ALL the BHC work all those years ?? Just askin...

[Phil on 20.02.06 at 13:51]

While I understand that some of you are unhappy with what went on under previous UBP governments, that has nothing to do with the Berkeley fiasco. Further discussion of the relative size of UBP and PLP cock-ups on this thread will be removed. The topic is the Berkeley project. I welcome the opinions of those who think the Mid Ocean's story is bunk, but please argue your case on its merits. If you want to continue the UBP vs. PLP discussion please find another thread to do so, or send me an email making your case that I can use to start an open mike.

Also, I'd appreciate it if everyone would please keep their language civil and avoid personal attacks.

Guilden

[to sandgrownan] You and other will very quickly condemn the PLP but you and others were completely silent when the UBP had its disasters.

[to Tiger Bay] Where was your voice when Mighty Max Burgess was involved in the steel company that held up progress at the airport? Where was your voice when the UBP spent $120 million plus and destroyed a perfectly good school system and created a system that most them refused to send their kids to? Where was your voice when the contractors from the prison had to be bailed out financially by the government?

Do you know the real identities of sandgrownan or Tiger Bay? Because if not, I am at a loss to understand why you keep making statements like this. How would you know whether they spoke out about the UBP's disasters? And even if they didn't, how do you know that they didn't have a perfectly reasonable explanation for not doing so, like being uninterested in politics at that time, or as TB points out, still being in school? Not everyone who reads this site is as old as you.

sandgrownan

The project may be $62 million over budget but that doesn't mean that this money has been lost or stolen. Construction projects frequently end up costing more than their original estimates, sometimes due to circumstances that were unforseen when work began. While I'm sure that some of that $62 million was consumed by incompetence and possibly even fraud, I doubt that all of it was.

ken

why did this 'credible' source not say anything prior to being dismissed

He did. He wrote a report. Before he was fired.

I just find it very scary that one person can make so far unsubstantiated claims

His claims were actually substantiated by photographs, some of which were published in the Mid Ocean.

if things were going wrong that could potentially cause a 'death trap' this guy should have raised holy hell when it was actually taking place...i.e. during the 5 years of construction.

I believe someone else has already pointed out that Mr. Martel was only recently recruited. You wouldn't be discussing this issue without actually having read what the Mid Ocean said, would you?

62 million dollars!!! 62 million dollars!!! Of course it is wrong, and of course it angers and bothers even the most ardent PLP supporter. However, what can be done about it now???? NOTHING.

I'm not sure that this is true. If ProActive's work was unsafe, it ought to be possible to have them pay to remedy this, saving the taxpayer the cost. They could claim on their performance bond for $7 million, after all.

[thisgrassman on 20.02.06 at 13:56]

The civil service must also take responsibility; the project was not properly defined nor contracted, and W&E's project management has been sorely lacking.

Posted by Tiger Bay on 20.02.06 at 13:34

If a job of this size had been run properly then the those supervising the project should simply be able to go to their files and produce the photographic records of construction in progress. These documents would immediately refute the allegations in the paper - if they exist that is.

If you visit Pro-Actives website they even have shots of work in progress

http://www.proactivebda.com/projects.htm# - click on current projects.

[Rossini on 20.02.06 at 13:59]

Nice try Limey. Inviting people to deal with the merits when all one has is the MON report and its painstakingly balanced view is rather limiting don't you think....I refer you to my comments of earlier...where is the report ? and another one...when were those pictures taken...have those things been remedied since they were taken several months ago..ooops did I say that.....God forbid the MidOcean could be stirring a pot that is no longer even on the flame.

[ken on 20.02.06 at 13:59]

Limey, I am sure u will remove this comment, but it is plainfully obvious your agenda with this website. And as neutral and non-partisan as you claim to be, the wordings of your topics, and the comments you express, which you are definitely entitled to, express otherwise.
I have no qualms with you expressing your opinions and disdain for the PLP government, but do not try and appear as if you are giving those an open forum for discussion, when in fact nothing could be further from the truth.

[sandgrownan on 20.02.06 at 14:03]

Guilden - when are the PLP apologists going to stop saying..."...bbbbut the ubp"..it's pathetic. It is now we are concerned wiht. 62 million wasted and (alledgedly) a piece of crap for our money.

[Guilden M. Gilbert, Jr. on 20.02.06 at 14:04]

Limey,

I do not need to know the identities of Tiger and Sandgrownan for if I ask why they never spoke out and they respond as did Tiger, than I can understand why at the time they didn't speak out.

However, I think I am also entitled to express my views on why these two posters have nothing positive to say about the PLP and everything negative. I think I am entitled to express my views when they state that the UBP was guilty of "mismanagement" but the PLP is "corrupt".

Surely I have the right to take them to task over such statements, do I not?

[SmokingGun on 20.02.06 at 14:06]

Ken - in defence of Limey he simply asked you to take the UBP/PLP bashing to another thread and stick to the issue here. By ignoring that fact it would appear you might be trying to spin the discussion....

[tilti on 20.02.06 at 14:07]

ken, that is irrational. Take out PLP and replace it with Party X and it is a case book example on how things have gone wrong. Tackle the issue in isolation, not against history, who, why and politics: Party X did a poor job of managing Project Y Period. That is all Limey is saying.

[Phil on 20.02.06 at 14:09]

ken

While I feel no need to prove myself to you, I nevertheless invite you to email me your thoughts on "the failings of the UBP" so I can start an open mike on that subject. Send it from an anonymous hotmail address if you don't want me to know who you are. Or leave it as a comment here (I'll remove it, but use it to start the new thread).

Rossini

I believe the photos were taken last month.

Guilden

Of course you have the right. I just think you should be wary about making blanket statements about what they have or have not done in the past if you don't know who they are.

[ken on 20.02.06 at 14:11]

I didn't begin the PLP/UBP discussion. My initial post dealt with the structure of the building and the fact that I do not believe that all of the parties/organizations/companies involved would compromise the project to the extent that it is not a sound structure or that it is hazardous.

[ken on 20.02.06 at 14:13]

Limey,

I am not the one who has been comparing the two parties. I have been continously trying to get the readers/posters to deal with the issue at hand - i.e. NOT the financial aspect, which has been beaten to death but the ethical aspect of what they are accusing nearly EVERYONE involved in the new school of.

[Guilden M. Gilbert, Jr. on 20.02.06 at 14:15]

Limey,

So its okay for Tiger Bay and others to continually label the PLP as being corrupt but those of us who knew the previous UBP Governments must be quiet.

I am starting to agree with with Ken and others who have made similar comments regarding your agenda for this site. Maybe you really don't want open and honest discussion if some of those participating actually favour the PLP as government. After all, you allow Tiger Bay and others to say what they wish about the PLP but you threatens others with deletion of posts.

Sure Rossine has a valid point, where is this report and if pictures were taken when were they taken and have the problems been resolved? Further if there were some safety issues why did he not go public before he was fired? just as you, Tiger and others have doubts with the creditbility of the PLP, I and some others have doubts as to the credibility of a person who would wait until he was fired to publicly address these issues.

Delete my posts as you see fit. The more you delete the more you confirm your unwillingness to want open and honest dicussions.

[tilti on 20.02.06 at 14:15]

guilden, I'm not an expert, but I think that what pushes mismanagement over the line and into the domain of corruption is caused by the total lack of transparency. If I could see the numbers and the budget to verify that the money was not stolen - simply over spent - I would deem it piss poor management. As long as these numbers remain under wraps and no idea of where all the money went remains, then I will presume corruption until I am led to beleive otherwise. I do not think that that is an unfair stance to take.

I was 15 when the PLP came to power. Unfortunatley, I was not denouncing the UBP from the cradle.

[SmokingGun on 20.02.06 at 14:18]

"Are you certain that you are speaking for "most" people?

I think a large number of people look at all government activity with skepticism, in Bermuda or anywhere else."

Guilden - So I guess you are in agreement? :)

Keeping on topic. This Berkeley fiasco is completely intertwined with the current government. It was started by the former government. Maybe the PLP could save face by coming out with a complete break down of what went wrong, what they have learned and what they intend to do in making sure this doesn't happen again under their watch. That is pretty much what "most" if not all Bermudians would like to see done.

[silencedogood on 20.02.06 at 14:22]

Guilden,

You and many others are simply prepared to accept any and everything negative about the PLP without first confirming whart is and what isn't fact.

This statement is complete garbage. I'll let my cumulative posts on this blog speak for themselves. Hell, just re-read my posts from this thread.

Just because I don't preface all my comments with "the UBP also sucks" doesn't mean I assume the PLP has done something bad. I am absolutely skeptical and the resistence to investigation and defensive statements of "the UBP did it too" make me moreso. That's all I'll say on that topic.

Nice try Limey. Inviting people to deal with the merits when all one has is the MON report and its painstakingly balanced view is rather limiting don't you think....I refer you to my comments of earlier...where is the report ?
Posted by Rossini on 20.02.06 at 13:59

How exactly are we supposed to debate it on anything else if the government will not look into the matter? Shouldn't you be criticizing Col. Burch? If he investigates and finds Berkeley is A-OK then kudos to him.

[Guilden M. Gilbert, Jr. on 20.02.06 at 14:28]

Tilti,

Just because YOU haven't seen a report does not mean that there is corruption. Corruption is a very serious allegation and anytime you accuse someone of corruption you should have to produce evidence. To date no such evidence has been provided.

Did the populous see a report on how the contractor for the prison was bailed financially? No, not from what I am aware of. Is that corruption? It has to date not been labelled as such.

I have no problems if persons do not have faith in the PLP as government that is an individual choice but to label a government corrupt because of what you believe is a completely different story.

[SmokingGun on 20.02.06 at 14:31]

Guilden - to bury one's head in the sand is one thing, to bury one's head in cement is a completely different story....

[Uncle Elvis on 20.02.06 at 14:32]

Just one question.

If the money aspect of it has been beaten to death and talking about it isn't going to make anything different, wouldn't that be setting a rather dangerous precedent? A precedent of "It's over now, don't worry about it, nothing we can do"?

Personally, I don't want that precedent set and, as it was my money that was spent, I'd kinda like to know where it went.

[Guilden M. Gilbert, Jr. on 20.02.06 at 14:32]

Silence,

"How exactly are we supposed to debate it on anything else if the government will not look into the matter?"

Did Burch not state in the RG today that the government will look into the matter?

[Tiger Bay on 20.02.06 at 14:34]

Actually, he did it on his radio show last night. Which by the way winkwink is not a political broadcast.

[Guilden M. Gilbert, Jr. on 20.02.06 at 14:37]

SmokingGun,

If you are saying that I am burying my head please show me how you come to that conclusion. Could it simply be because I disagree with you? if that is your analysis, that is something you have to deal with not me.

Tiger,

The point is he stated publicly taht the government will look into the matter. Come back and complain when the government does nothing. If that happens than we will at least agree on something.

[tilti on 20.02.06 at 14:42]

Guilden, You are dead on, I haven't seen a report, nobody has, that is the problem. The evidence would be in that report, by witholding that evidence the PLP are painting themselves a bad picture, if they have nothing to hide, then why not make it public? Their silence on that matter is burying them.

I don't know about the prison scandal, but I'll take your word for it that it was full of corruption. That hardly makes any inroads into sorting out this fiasco. Both should be looked into and accountability should lie somewhere.

[ken on 20.02.06 at 14:42]

Uncle Elvis,

No one is saying not to investigate the project or the cost associated with it.

My position is that this topic was more concerned with the allegations in the paper of the school being a death trap.

[silencedogood on 20.02.06 at 14:43]

Guilden,

I had not seen that, but just read it and am glad of it. Whether it happens is another thing but I agree we should wait and see.

[Guilden M. Gilbert, Jr. on 20.02.06 at 14:46]

Tilti,

I never said the prison matter was corruption. For all I know it could have all been legitimate. Actually, I don't think I have ever even stated that the UBP was corrupt.

Unless you know something is corruption why throw the word around so loosely?

[SmokingGun on 20.02.06 at 14:56]

Guilden - as tilti points out the PLP are burying themselves deeper and deeper. Eventually the cement's going to set. Eventually we end up with a bunch of hard heads blinded by their own failure to see things done correctly.

Actually I guess we already have that.....

[ken on 20.02.06 at 14:58]

Smoking Gun,

And if in fact that is the case, and if you and enough others are disillusioned enough, then you will have your say at the ballot box. It as simple as that!

[tilti on 20.02.06 at 14:59]

guilden, part of the reason for labelling the Berkley project corrupt is a challenge to the PLP to prove that it isn't. It is clear that something is wrong here regarding the allocation of public moneies, but if I simply said 'something is a little funny here' there really wouldn't any impetus for the government to assure me that the general public feeling is misplaced.