« Speeding up the Internet | Main | Shutting down LiB »

Bermudian unemployment

In his column in today’s Bermuda Sun, Larry Burchall wonders how Bermuda can have anything other than a zero unemployment rate.

Since there are 11,000 non-Bermudian work permit holders, and since Bermudians have first dibs on any job, he says:

“Surely in an economy that imports actuaries, beauticians, cooks, gardeners, hairdressers, insurance specialists, potwashers, radiographers, teachers — there must be a job, somewhere, that one more Bermudian can do. With 11,000 jobs to pick from, there must be at least one suitable choice for one more Bermudian.”

A couple of thoughts sprang to mind after reading his column.

First, not all of those unemployed have to be Bermudians. They could be spouses of Bermudians too. That said, they should still have preference for a job over an expat.

Second, some of these people might prefer unemployment to a job that they consider to be too much like hard work, or beneath them. This is likely to be especially true if, for example, they’re still living at home with their parents.

Third, could some of those out of work be just short-term unemployed, temporarily between jobs?

Comments

Comment on this post on your own blog, then add a link here by sending a trackback to http://www.typepad.com/t/trackback/4258/4367515, or by using this form.

Additional Comments (38)

Feed You can follow this conversation by subscribing to the comment feed for this post.

First - a point of information: there is a category of expatriate that has permission to seek employment, but which is not currently employed. Typically these people are spouses or fiances of expatriates, who have accompanied their partner to Bermuda and wish to work. Immigration awards them the right to seek employment. However, they are still required to obtain a work permit in the normal way. I do not know whether these people are included in the government unemployment figures. For some purposes it would be worthwhile including them, because they will help the government to understand the extent to which tightening of the labour market may impact wage inflation in the economy. For other purposes this category of unemployed may be less important, as for example I doubt that the government would be much interested in developing social assistance programmes to support this segment.

Second - Larry Burchall's analysis is ludicrously simplistic (although I do understand the basic thrust of his argument). His argument pre-supposes an economy in which there are homogeneous factors of production that drive the manufacture of all goods and services in the economy. This is simply not the case in Bermuda or anywhere else for that matter. His argument also pre-supposes perfect liquidity in the labour market. Again in a market of this size, this is unlikely to be the case.

If you ask me, an unemployment rate of close to 2% is pretty close to constituting no structural unemployment.

Indeed many economists would argue that unemployment rates (including transient unemployment) of below 4% have an unhealthy impact on an economy, because of the inflationary pressure that it creates through wage inflation.

Given that we observe such low unemployment rates, there is some evidence of efficiency in the labour market. Although this may be influenced by the lack of social assistance programmes for the unemployed in Bermuda.

In many other developed economies against which Bermuda may wish to benchmark itself unemployment rates are higher, but so too are levels of social assistance to the unemployed.

The unemployed in Bermuda have little choice other than to find some kind of employment in order to survive. In all likelihood this drives wages below the poverty line.

I think that a more interesting analysis would be to compare the distribution of real income in Bermuda versus that in other developed economies across their population, and also to examine what proportion of the population falls below the perceived poverty line in Bermuda vs these other developed economies.

Nominal wages in Bermuda are high by world standards, but the above analysis would tell us how were are really doing as a society and an economy.

No Vote,
I like your comments and agree with you on the most part but your last paragraph about wage dispursion is going to fuel the racism fire which is being beaten to death - although it needs to be addressed.

NoVote I knew I liked you.... I was going to offer a similar arguement. You sound like you're gearing up for level III of the CFA there.

It is interesting to read how the unemployment figures hold up in Bermuda. In the Isle of Man where I live the official figures regularly show around 400 people registered as unemployed, yet the number of vacancies varies, currently in the region of 1100. This gives the impression of negative unemployment, which basically is the case. Those regular 400 people are basically the "unemployable" for whatever reason.

It would be interesting to find out how many of Bermuda's unemployed are basically the "unemployable". Does anyone know? Is there any way to find out?

I question Mr. Burchall's understanding of economics. There will always be a natural rate of unemployment in an economy, that is there will always be workers who simply do not want jobs because the opportunity cost (i.e. the spare time they would have to forfeit) is too great.

As Phil rightly points out, our conception of opportunity cost is arbitrary; immigrant workers might experience a lower opportunity cost due to their particular circumstances and thereby fill the jobs that Bermudians are unwilling to take. Moreover, as No Vote indicates, attempting to reduce unemployment below the natural level of unemployment is pointless; all that usually results is wage inflation, causing, in the long run, workers who came into employment to drop out again: the market has a tendency to revert to the natural rate of unemployment.

The solution might be to reduce the natural rate, thereby recruiting more Bermudians into the labour force. This might be done through logistical measures i.e. improving the information available to Bermudians about job vacancies.

I suspect that the majority of locals unemployed are either unemployable, aren't interested in working, or on a 'hussle'.

On the hussle? No!

One wonders how many SoB's there are out there doing jobs that Bermudians could do?

I am a little surprised that Burchall does not at least make reference to them within the 11,000 context althgough it is probably not possible to find the actual numbers involved.

The preference over expats that Phil refers to, is part real and part a myth. Real in the sense that it will likely assist you in getting an interview, but a myth in practice in terms of preference over expats. That at least is my experience as an unemployed SoB myself, I can think of two positions I applied for where the existing expat employee continued in the role at the end of the process.

If BDA required it's unemployed to register as such, that might provide the opportunity to "force" the issue, i.e. the jobs that the unemployed are qualified to do that are currently being done by none-Bermudians could be identified and the employer challenged to recruit the Bermudian.

Where the Bermudian subsequently refuses to accept the job, they should not be counted as unemployed. That at least would give us a more true picture, and also remove (at least in the short term) the "you have my job" call which I still hear from time to time.

Man... if that's CFA III maybe I should just switch over and drop all this SOA stuff ;)

During my interview process I asked what their Bermudian/expat ratio, just curious to hear how things roughly work... universally the response was not many Bermudians and we want more. Two hiring mangers (I'm not at either of these places now) told me that unofficially, they think that they can't get any remotely qualified Bermudians because they feel the positions are beneath them. (just regular grunt IB workers... no housing allowances, nothing cushy like that - the kind of stuff I've heard "all" of us get... trust me, most of us don't)

Just a thought on why that number isn't 0... with unemployment that low people (in *certain* sectors) can be very picky

I will say that there is a large amount of young people predominantly that are not working voluntarily. We have become such a status seeking and materialistic society that if you aren't employed in international business or a specific money making trade (carpentry, construction, electrician, plumbing, etc), then you are frowned upon. No one wants to work in the hotels as wait staff or bartenders or chambermaids. We are paying the price in so many ways for our affluence. This is a large portion of the reason that our hospitality sector is lagging behind. In years past people had ambition to be ambassadors for Bermuda. Now, the waiters and waitresses are either non Bermudian, or the Bermudians ones that work there are not happy with working there as they had no desire in the first place to work in the hospitality industry.

When I think unemployment, I generally assume that number refers to people that want a job but cannot find one. However, in a large number of cases in Bermuda, I think it is a combination of that and the fact that some just are not interested in working particular jobs.

Why hire a Bermudian when you can get 10 workers from the East, pay them what amounts to nothing, give them a milk carton to live in and know they will show up 7 days a week rain or shine cuz doing that is a hell of a better deal than the alternative from whence they came.

Is the problem is the employers or those not willing to wash dishes?

On the top side of business, IB etc most companies are gagging for local's to get into the business but at the same time they have to be reasonably qualified or on the ball and willing to learn. They hire based on making more money and those who arent going to help this arent going to get the job.

Interesting about the unemployable. I wonder if that is fed into the figures?

19th Hole: Sorry - No intention to fan any racial flames. Just wanted to flag the fact that high per capita income doesn't necessarily translate into affluence - nor for that matter does low unemployment rates. Clearly, there is evidence that income distribution in Bermuda is skewed along racial lines, so I suppose that the analysis that I suggested could be used in an inflamatory way.

Combat: Have the odd letter or two after my name, but CFA isn't and won't be one of them. I'm pretty sure that my understanding of economics doesn't extend much beyond what is taught at high school. I hope the CFA is harder than that! Somebody, please tell me that it is!!!

As I understand, Unemployment refers to people who are not employed, but are also ACTIVELY SEEKING EMPLOYMENT. That would suggest that the 'unemployable' section of Bermuda do not count towards our unemployment figure, regardless of what their reason is for not seeking employment is (high-opportunity cost etc).

NoVote you do make good points though, especially regarding the Phillips Curve...I, for one, would like to see what information is out there regarding our inflation vs. unemployment rates.

JAT - "Phillips Curve"......whoosh! Straight over my head. Proof that I am not a CFA. I'll go investigate what tis Phillip character's up to! ;-)

It's not as easy to get white collar jobs here as you think. I just recently stopped being self-employed and have gone into the job market again. I have a Bachelor's Degree from Acadia University, some office experience working in the U.S. and am still finding it a bit tricky to land a job. So think how it is for people with no degree or experience. I think alot of jobs are landed through the old boy system, with rich kid's parents finding them jobs, I know I can name a few people who got jobs they weren't even really qualified for that way. If this keeps up I'm moving back to the States where I might be more appreciated.

PS Oh yeah I'm Bermudian not an expat.

XYZ - Same story. Have an MBA, a bachelors from Oxford University and 15 years international experience in finance industry. Took me three years to find a decent job. It's harder than you think. Was also looking very seriously at leaving and going to the States. No, not an expat either.

If you want to know what JTA was going on about, here you go:

http://www.tutor2u.net/economics/content/topics/inflation/philips_curve.htm

Seems vaguely familiar in the dim and distant past!

Wow... you guys realy know your numbers! I tried to keep up with ya, but much of it ended up sounding like the teacher from Charlie Brown in my head.

Anyway.

Ken, you're totally right, and it's sad.
I'm only 37 and I can remember a time when being part of the hospitality industry was a point of pride! We were respected by both our customers and our employers.
Unfortunately, there was a sharp decline in respect. Employers stopped caring if they had good bartenders, as long as they were hot chicks or good looking fellas or buddies of theirs. Wait staff? Don't make me laugh. Nobody gives a crap any more, on either side, so why would a smart, young Bermudian get into it? So what if it, when done right, can be a very lucritive career?
Customers, too. Now, much of it is the instant 15% gratuities, which worked at the time, when we all thought of it as an amazing bonus for working hard, but now that it's expected... it kinda disgusts me. When I go into a bar or rastaurant and get the worst service ever, then HAVE to pay a 15% tip (I know I don't HAVE to pay, but I'm too tired to have them take it off... I did that a couple of times and it was a major hassle), then get dirty looks, or worse, vrebal abuse, from this shitty waiter for not leaving a tip.

Tell you what. When we lot take over the world, I'll leave the money stuff to you guys. The only job I want... the only power I want... is to be able to walk into a bar and tell the shitty bartender "GET OUT! GO LEARN YOUR PROFESSION!" and have the owners back me up.

We need to get back to respecting our hospitality industry, both as customers and as employees.

"We need to get back to respecting our hospitality industry, both as customers and as employees." Uncle E

Too true. The 15% grat garauntee actually doesn't help anyone. Who's going to want to bust their butt for a lousy 15%? I rarely tip below 20% for decent service and often 25%. That extra 5-10% can make a big difference at the end of the night for someone. Just dumping the rule and pushing the average up to 20% is the same as getting a 33% pay raise.

Smokes,

"Oh, but people don't tip, so we need it!" they'll cry, and they have a point. People, in general, are lousy tippers. Which is pretty much why the grats system came into place.
The problem is that now, besides being cheap, people don't tip BECAUSE of the system. "They're getting a tip anyway", they think. And THEY have a point.

So what's to be done?

Eat it.

That's my advice. Get rid of the "mandatory" 15% Gratuity and make sure people know it. Drinks will now be 15% cheaper. Push that. Market that.
"Our drinks are cheaper because we don't force you to tip... but if the service is worth it, please feel free to show your appreciation."
We need to train both the people in the industry AND the people that use it.
The old rule still stands.
If the service is good, 20% is appropriate.
If it's just ok, no complaints, 15%.
If it's only worth 10% or less, don't tip, talk to the manager.

And before this appears to be off-topic...

The reason I think it's important to this topic is that we need to get Bermudians back to being proud of the hospitality industry.
It's NOT a fall-back career for those too dumb to get into IB.
It's NOT something to be ashamed of.
It's NOT a bullshit job that anyone can do.

It can be a career that is fulfilling, financially viable. It can also be tough. It's not all fun and games, but at the end of the day, being a good bartender or waiter is something to be proud of.

Uncle E - you mean to say they include the 15% in my bar tab as well? Heck I'd better start paying attention, someone's getting rich off me.

I think Ken's point is very valid as to why a lot of people don't get into the hospitality trade. It's become the second rate job to a lot of people and there are many in the IB sector that are actually a bunch of snobs. Bermudians and ex-pats.

It's why I really appreciate someone in the hospitality industry who stands out by being pleasant and attentive. They get the 25% to make up for all the attitude that the stiffs give them. I guess there's a bit of a Catch 22 go on here though. Pity because you are right, we do need to make an effort in getting the people in the industry feeling proud of what they do and the benefits that they bring to Bermuda.
I'm sure a 33% pay raise would help.....

First of all, its important to note that not only is a 0% unemployment rate nearly impossible to achieve, its not good for the economy. As NoVote correctly stated, there is a natural rate of unemployment in an economy, and it is neither possible or desirable for the economy to drop below this level in the long run. Having 0% unemployment means that there will never be a single person looking for a job - not one. That means that there won't be any students coming back to the island with degrees trying to find a job and there won't be any people looking for better opportunities in the workplace. Essentially, it means that the production capacity of the economy is completely stagnant, and the standard of living for Bermudians will not improve.

As for Bermudians looking down on the service industry, doesn't it make sense? I'm in the process of earning a degree in economics and finance and I certainly don't wish to come back to a job as a waiter or bartender, because I could do that with little to no education (not to mention how angry my parents would be for wasting tens of thousands of their hard-earned dollars). It's not that I don't respect the work of good service workers - its a field that deserves a tremendous amount of respect. But if every Bermudian is willing and able to get an education and take pride in a specialised professional field, then whats the problem? All it does is improve the attractiveness of Bermuda as a prime location for international business. If expats have to be hired to fill the jobs that Bermudians don't want, then bring them in. Encouraging Bermudians to take these jobs instead of moving into a more specialised professional field is encouraging them to push the economy into stagnation.

"As for Bermudians looking down on the service industry, doesn't it make sense? I'm in the process of earning a degree in economics and finance and I certainly don't wish to come back to a job as a waiter or bartender, because I could do that with little to no education (not to mention how angry my parents would be for wasting tens of thousands of their hard-earned dollars). It's not that I don't respect the work of good service workers - its a field that deserves a tremendous amount of respect." -Frozen

Sure I respect you. Now shut up and go get my drink sort of respect. Just a little bit of a back handed show of respect maybe? Did I mention the word snob a post back?

You may not have noticed but the buffett style of dining isn't real big in Bermuda. The big cats like to sit a table and have the food brought to them by someone. Unfortunately there is only enough room for so many big cats. As an individual you should be free to choose your profession, and hopefully you will have or can learn the skills that get you where you want to go and reap the rewards associated with it. Others may not have your same skill sets or may even prefer to be in the service industry. That doesn't mean they should or even deserve to be looked down upon.

Not to jump on you, but that's the problem. "I could do that with little to no education.

You could do the half-assed job that many, if not most, of the people in the industry do today, but to be truly great at it, you would need education, experience and intelligence.

Sure, it's not working for the huge bucks in IB, but that's really not for everyone. Not everyone is cut out for the 9 to 5 (or 6 or whatever) grind of office work. There should be an outlet for those that consider working in an office to be an interminable drag.
IB isn't the be-all, end-all of Bermuda. We also have the "pillar" of tourism and it should be nurtured to the fullest, not left to decay or looked down upon because it's not accounting or economics or IT.
Encouraging Bermudians to take these jobs instead of moving into a more specialised professional field is encouraging them to push the economy into stagnation.
I disagree wholeheartedly. Encouraging Bermudians to take these jobs and do them properly would push the economy back towards the two-pronged approach, which, to me, seems more stable than hitching our wagons to what seems to be a rather fickle single post of international business.
What happens if the threats DO come through and they DO pull out? I'm not saying they would, but what if?
If we rely solely on IB, we'd be screwed, royally and completely.
We NEED to make sure our bases are covered and supporting and nurturing tourism is really our only option.

SmokingGun - I in no way meant respect as a "Now shut up and go get my drink sort of respect." I know that it takes a lot of skill and work to do those jobs well, but to simply do them requires little. I don't look down on a good waiter, I appreciate it immensely.
However, I don't want to become a good waiter because it takes too much work for the benefits I'd receive. That many not be the same for everyone, in which case, more power to them.

Elvis - I agree, they need an education in the industry, but even with a college education i'd do a half-assed job because economics and finance have little to do with fish chowder and dark'n'stormies. I also agree that "IB isn't the be-all, end-all of Bermuda". I just think that if most Bermudians want to work in IB because it offers better rewards, then I see no reason why foreigners can't be brought in to do the work. If IB does pull out, and god help us if it does, then the reward-laden positions will no longer be there and those same Bermudians will be forced to take service jobs out of necessity, and only there will be much more inticement for Bermudians to develop the proper skill set.

In the meantime, Bermuda doesn't have the workforce to support both industries fully, so they should be encouraged to do whatever they feel is most rewarding for them, financially, socially, or personally - and for those with the skills, my guess is that the majority will choose the better-paid professions.

Frozen - I know you didn't. Besides they'd come back and toss a frosty at you if you did.

The one thing that I've always wondered is: If IB did pack it's bags and leave how many Bermudians would decide to go with them?

Elvis and Smokinggun, this is getting wildly off topic, but, I am a young Bermudian and planning on entering IB, but also really grappled with the idea of being a chef. I have experience in Bermuda, Canada, and Europe and I believe that your cynicism is mislaid. The reason for crap service is that here tips are dispensed on a communal basis. It is really hard when you have, as I do, a passion for food and service and the industry as a whole, and there are three of four Bermudians working your shift with you who couldn’t give a toss – and they get your tips. The system of industry here is far too unionized for there to be any great restaurants. That is the problem, not the individual staff members.

tilti - what you are saying goes hand in hand with the problem we discussed. Get rid of the defunct system and of course those that will choose to excell will be the benefactors and reap higher returns on there investment. The beauty is that once the others, those that are literally on the working dole, will get pushed aside by others who want the increased earning potential. A trickle up effect. But that's the catch 22. Unlike in the USA, Canada etc. where they have a ton of people willing to take their place Bermuda has zippo and also a nice Union that pretty much has our hospitality trade by the beer-nuts.

By the way, what kind of Chef? Savoury or Sweet?

Tilts, I agree with you, but wish to add that it is more than that. Those people who don't give a toss should either be educated properly as to how to do their jobs or sacked.
It's part and parcel of the problem. With no pride in your work and an attitude of "Oh, it's just waiting tables, anyone can do that" coming off of people around you, it's really hard to get it up for your job, so to speak.

Frozen,

Having spent way too many years in the industry, I have to disagree with you. The benefits can be amazing. One bar manager I worked with bought a house at 22, making the downpayment without blinking and the mortgage easily every month. Another bought a new car, outright, in cash. Without batting an eye.
Both started as waiters and bartenders.

Granted, things have changed in the past decade, but, back in the day (God... it's only been 10 - 15 years... "back in the day"... that's scary),when people had pride in the industry, when EVERYONE had respect for hospitality done correctly, before bar owners decided to cut corners and hire incompetants because they look cute in short-shorts (not saying that all attractive bartenders are incompetant, but you know what I mean...), there was a VERY secure, financially rewarding career to be had in the industry.

The operative word in "I know that it takes a lot of skill and work to do those jobs well, but to simply do them requires little" is "simply". To SIMPLY do those jobs DOES require only a little. To do them properly does not. It takes skill, dedication and know-how.
I understand that it's not for you. That's cool.
But please don't dismiss it because it's not for you.
(You may not have intended it to sound like it, but it did seem that you were dismissing it)
If you think waiting and bartending is just about fish chowder and dark 'n' stormies, you're sadly mistaken.

Smoke and others,
I have lived state side for 15 years now and have seen some amazing truths about the hospitality industry. A friend of mine making $60K in 6 months in a resort and some making $300-$500 a night at good restaurants. Nothing wrong with their trade but making alot of $$$$. I know if I worked in BDA doing this with my training I should make the same if not more..why don't Bermudians think this is good money?

Elvis, it is too hard to sack someone in Bermuda - just ask the BELCO executives, and you can only educate people who want to be educated. I thought is was really refreshing seeing chefs and waiters fired at the drop of a hat for missing a shift and having the head chef just say "f... em' if they don't want to come to work and bust their balls I don't want them". I made a lot of money there, because the competitive nature of the place made it possible. I wasted a lot of effort in Bermuda watching my tips go to poeple who slacked off.

I realise that this is all going off topic, but it is relevant in the sense that if I was an employer I would really give a second thought to hiring a Bermudian who I knew would be close to impossible to lay off should their performance be poor or there was an economic down turn. Bermuda unions are a serious disincentive to hire new people.

19th Hole - there is a lot of money to be made, but it is scary, and it really requires a leap of faith to do seasonal work with little job security, especially in a place as small as Bermuda.

"before bar owners decided to cut corners and hire incompetants because they look cute in short-shorts "

Uncle E - they learned that in Marketing 101.

I don't know about Bermuda... but in Canada wait staff who are known to be good at their job and get along with the managers etc can make a mint... and bartenders? WOW

Now... I just said can, there are lots that don't but I've been to a few places where the standard tip is 100% and nobody blinks doing it 'cause the service is *that* great. The auto 15% here does ZERO to encourage good service but I bet it makes for lots of "happy accients" with tourists who 30 or 40% tips without realizing it

The problem with the service industry here is that for whatever reasons it's gone from a job to have pride in to a to job that you take while you're looking for something better (from what I'm hearing, and of course there are always exceptions). It's certainly not exclusive to here... Canada has a big push on right now to get people into trades since nobody goes into them anymore - mom & dad want Johnny to be a computer programmer not an electrician! - despite the fact that in reality the electrician makes 1.5 - 2 times what average Johnny programmer will

19 - your point on the Dollars from hospitality is well taken, even here. The problem lies with the cost of living here...factor in the non-standard hours, rent/mortgage (Bermudians would rather own, obviously) and decent schooling for kids...and there's precious little left over.
IB offers way more perks & potential so why even bother scraping by in a smoke-filled bar night after night, when you can do 8-6 at SomethingorOther Re for more $$ - sad reality, but the Hospitality industry in Bermuda is dying QUICKLY.

Canuck,
it's gone from a job to have pride in to a to job that you take while you're looking for something better

Egg-ZACKLY

tilti,

eggg-ZACKLY. Your exactly right. This is the problem.


On De Wata,

IB offers way more perks and potentials, now that hospitality has been left to rot.
But before it died, you could make more than enough money. You weren't scraping by, you were raking it in, and only working 8-12 or, at most, 8-3.
This is what I'm saying.
Hospitality industry in Bermuda is dying QUICKLY is an untruth. Hospitality is DEAD in Bermuda and we're just watching the flies pick the bones, as is the entertainment industry.
I can guarantee that we will see at least one bar/restaurant close withing the next year or two.
It'll be replaced with yet another cookiecutter, techno-playing, overpriced, sterile disco-wanna-be, but only if we're lucky.
Bars are dead. Live music is dead. Entertainment is dead. Hospitality is dead.

And we're the worse off for it.

Smokes,

True, as well. Short-term goal met. Long-term goal? "What's that? I just want to get through this year."

And that's what's sad.

I agree with all the individuals who have posted comments regarding the problems finding employment in Bermuda. I am a Bermudian who when I turned 18 went to the United States to educate myself beyond a high school diploma. I received two Bachelors Degrees in Business Administration from Oakwood College and a Masters in Health Administration from Loma Linda University. Last year I applied and contacted several organizations throughout the island with the hope of finding employment including King Edward Hospital. I have never received a reply back from any of the companies on possible job opportunities. I only received a reply from the hospital stating that there are no positions available that meet my qualifications and career goals. I have found that there are very few opportunities in Bermuda for our own citizens. As a result of not being able to find a suitable position in Bermuda, I have decided to live in the United States where I have been able to find employment and greater career opportunities.

BA and a Masters in Health? Are you sure the Hospital doesn't have an opening? I'd keep the resume on top of the pile if I were them. In the meantime can you get a job that would increase your chances of returning to Bermuda? Best of luck.

The comments to this entry are closed.

Updates By Email

  • Enter your email address below to receive a daily email containing all new posts.
     

    Delivered by FeedBurner

Search The Site

Contact Your MP

  • Politicians are elected to serve the people. If your MP is doing a good job or isn't living up to your expectations, let him or her know. Contact details for all PLP and UBP MPs and senators can be found here.