Educating Private Ryan

Earlier this month, the Government introduced a scheme to enable soldiers in the Bermuda Regiment to receive special grants to further their education at the Bermuda College. Last week, the Shadow Minister for Race Relations and Economic Empowerment, Jamahl Simmons, suggested that the programme should be expanded to allow soldiers to receives subsidies for overseas education too.

The Government's plan and the UBP's proposed extension are wrong-headed. Anyone who needs a subsidy to enable them to further their education should be eligible for one, not just those who are in the Regiment. It's in Bermuda's interest to enable as many of its citizens to get an education as possible.

Moreover, it's inefficient to use taxpayers' money to subsidise the education of those who could afford to pay for it themselves. The scheme would also seem to discriminate against those who are unable to serve in the Regiment, perhaps for medical reasons, or who choose to serve in other equally worthy organisations (such as the Fire Service) instead.

Mr. Simmons' suggestion that soldiers should have access to low-interest loans to enable them to buy homes or start a business is equally misguided. If increasing home ownership and making it easier to start a business are desirable goals, why single out soldiers for special help in achieving them?

Comments

[TJL on 27.04.06 at 08:24]

Personally I love the idea, probably in no small part to the fact that I currently serve in the Regiment. I almost certainly therefore have some personal bias, but also some insight from the other side of Warwick Camp's gate:

1) NOBODY is unable to serve in the Regiment. The "medical requirements" only exist as an escape clause for those who wish to avoid service. If you are willing to serve (and this goes for both genders) the Regiment will find a place for you.

2) I would agree with extending the program to cover the other roles which can substitute for Regimental service - police, fire brigade, ambulance, etc. The point here is that in order to get the subsidies you have to give back to the community in the form of service - there are no handouts. Perhaps this is controversial, but we as Bermudians suffer from a birthright complex - we feel that as citizens of a wealthy nation, the world should be handed to us on a silver platter. Challenging this mentality by demonstrating that work is needed for reward is critical if we are to move forward.

3) The Regiment suffers from an incentive problem - you can get soldiers in the door with the draft, but you need to find more creative ways to encourage individuals to stay (this particularly relates to finding suitable candidates for officer positions).

[Bill Cook on 27.04.06 at 08:46]

As I recall there has always been the opportunity to further ones education in for example the Police service and to this end we have produced many lawyers some quite prominent.

In other countries like the US there is the incentive of further college education as an incentive for one who serves in the armed forces.

Personally for those who are attracted to a discipline service I would think that the regiment would be a great recruiting ground for the police and prison services and any assisted education should incorporate training in either plus in restarting the original senior training school for boys and people to run them educated to do so.

This would seem to make sense to me.

[silencedogood on 27.04.06 at 09:07]

I have to agree with the posts above. If you are getting a grant or something of that nature it should be for service.

That being said, I think greater access to loans with subsidized interest rates to study abroad is a good idea. The difference being that the loans are repaid.

[Cynic on 27.04.06 at 09:14]

Limey,

I don't understand your logic at all. Why would you be opposed to a scheme that enhances the educational opportunities available to those that may be most in need. I swear with this government, you have a damned if you do, damned if you don't mentality.

As TJL said, there are many roles to be played in the regiment. From field soldier, to stores clerk, to office clerk, to medic, to quartermaster clerk...many different postings. There is clear evidence that many privates don't want to serve when called. With this program I think the intent is that some will see themselves beginning a trade/educational path while in the regiment and thus will be more willing to serve. In the very least, we gain a more responsible soldier, and consequently a more responsible citizen.

The U.S. Army provides college education for its soldiers, and I am sure that other countries provide the same. I see no issue against this.

I am not too sure about the low interest loans for purchasing homes etc for soldiers as suggested by Mr Simmons though, I would have to think about that a bit more. But as far as education, i am all for it.

[Guilden M. Gilbert, Jr. on 27.04.06 at 09:41]

Limey,

I have to agree fully with TJL and Bill. There is much talk about the abolishment of conscription into the Bermuda Regiment, if this move is successful what better way to attract new recruits and get persons thinking about the military as a career?

There were a great many persons who elected the enter the police service via the Police Cadet scheme due to the fact that in doing so their education through Bermuda College was paid for. I believe there was a minimal number of service years one had to commit to complete after they completed their education. These persons probably would never have joined the police force if it weren't for this benefit. Many of these people remained on the force after the committed service period and many are still on the force today.

Regimental, police and fire services are in many ways thankless jobs and I believe there needs to be and should be incentives to get people to join voluntarily.

I do not disagree that there should be subsidies in other areas but I feel that the subsidy should require persons to provide some public or civil service for a contracted period of time upon completion of their education. I know this has been done for a number of attorneys. As long as the commitment period is reasonable and there are opportunities for advancement it can serve the country well.

[Douglas De Couto on 27.04.06 at 10:02]

The regiment soldiers deserve more access to government assistance because they are giving (or are compelled to give) large amounts of their time and energy for what is typically very low pay (far less than any job they might get otherwise, at least for privates and corporals).

As for the other services (Police, Fire), I assume they are getting fully paid for their time (with the exception of the volunteers).

Although it would be nice for Gov't to subsidize everyone's education (and there are already many Gov't grants and scholarships), you can't always pay for everyone, and I think this Reg't plan is a good start.

[Onion on 27.04.06 at 10:12]

I too agree with the comments above. I am not sure I follow your logic Limey. Most militaries around the world provide subsidised education to their troops. With a conscripted service in Bermuda this is the elast they could do.

As said above there is a role for EVERYONE in the Regiment. It doesn't matter if you are female, flat-footed, you only have one leg or you weight 500 pounds. They will find a useful role for you to fill. I even know of someone who is mentally challenged and is full-time staff in the Quartermaster's department. They ahve chosen to serve and they deserve to be rewarded.

[Denis Pitcher on 27.04.06 at 10:19]

I beleive education is the key to our success as an island, and as such I don't disagree with Limey that all Bermudians should be entitled to achieving one both at the college and abroad.

Certainly there are many scholarships, even more so there are many that go unassigned each year. Part of the difficulty is that the scholarship comittee's make it too difficult.

Take the recent Bacardi scholarships for example. They advertised their scholarships and got no applicants, and subsequently complained about it.

If you take a moment to review the situation, you'll have a better understanding as to why. They advertise the scholarship in the local newspapers during times when students already in school are away. The deadlines just happen to coincide with many students exam and final periods, which makes it very difficult to perform both. The requirements overall are very drawn out and take alot of effort to collect all of the various details.

I recall back a few years ago, spending about $500 of my own hard earned money putting together the material and applying for a wide range of scholarships. Only to be turned down by each and every one of them. I failed to apply again any other year because I was losing money rather then gaining it.

If government wants to do more, they should subsudize education as well as create an organization dedicated to matching applicable students with the right scholarships to ensure they're all used and we arn't wasting our money.

Every Bermudian should have a post secondary education. No, ifs, ands or buts.

If they want to encourage more people into regiment, I agree that they should pay more. I can understand the approach behind the home subsudies because those working hard doing alot of overtime to save money for a home have to sacrafice a great deal to attend regiment for very little pay.

[lost in flatts on 27.04.06 at 10:21]

I fully agree with what everyone is saying, that there should be a rewards scheme in place similar to that of say, the US armed forces, but one fundamental difference, and I think is what Limey is getting at, is that participating in our regiment is not a choice. Henceforth, you a) don't need a 'carrot' and b)you essentially reward people for being 'lucky' in a draw.

It's not as though someone recruited to regiment gets to say, hm, well I don't really want to go, but I could earn money for college, so I guess I'll join. If we were to have such a system, I would fully promote it. As it stands, I'm left to just look forward to joining a group of 18 year olds when I return in my late 20's/early 30's, to maybe earn some funds towards college. Great.

[Tiger Bay on 27.04.06 at 10:24]

I think it's a good idea.

[Cynic on 27.04.06 at 10:44]

Lost in flatts,

It is true that not everyone is selected, but everyone has the equal chance to volunteer. And if the benefits (like educational opportunities) are presented, then maybe those that aren't conscripted might volunteer.

[Onion on 27.04.06 at 10:45]

Lost in Flatts,

You cannot please everyone all the time. Call this initiative a good start. The fact is it is not disciminatory because anyone can volunteer to serve in the Regiment if they don't get conscripted. The fact that there will be some who can already afford to pay for their education is irrelevant. I'm sure many US soldiers could afford college tuition as well. Scholarships, for example, are not just given based on need but also on merit. This is a reward for service for soldiers who are serving their country and get very little monetary remuneration for the work they do.

[jake on 27.04.06 at 10:47]

Regiment meets PLP and you want Phil to support it?

Please.

As for Jamahl Simmons. Please again. He went on record - against his party - for how he did not support the Regiment. Now he wants to grasp the hem of the PLP's garment on this issue.

Jamahl, here's a suggetion: next time just jump up and down shouting "Me too, me too!".

[lost in flatts on 27.04.06 at 10:56]

I'm with you on rewarding volunteers, but if the rewards were really comparable to the sacrifice, then you wouldn't need conscription. Maybe that's the direction it's heading. If so, good stuff, it seems archaic and ridiculous that Bermuda have a mandatory draft for 'armed services'.

[Cynic on 27.04.06 at 11:01]

Lost in flatts,

That may be true, but I can assure you that the regiment is not going anywhere anytime soon, and neither is the conscription. They will never get the necessary numbers to maintain it otherwise. At least now, it seems the powers that be want the regiments to gain tangible experience and opportunities frm their service, and I can only see that as a positive.

[TJL on 27.04.06 at 11:08]

"you essentially reward people for being 'lucky' in a draw." - lost in flatts

You can't be serious...

[lost in flatts on 27.04.06 at 11:10]

Cynic - Your points are all fair, and I do tend to agree. My frustration lies at a more fundamental level, I guess this isn't really the thread to discuss it. In a nutshell, the regiment in it's current form provides a service that doesn't match its training regime, and that seems to me to be a bit of a serious flaw.

[silencedogood on 27.04.06 at 11:16]

They will find a useful role for you to fill. I even know of someone who is mentally challenged and is full-time staff in the Quartermaster's department.
Posted by Onion on 27.04.06 at 10:12

Instead of the quartermaster's department, most armies put these types of people in military intelligence! ;)

[silencedogood on 27.04.06 at 11:19]

Cynic,

I wouldn't be so harsh as to say "damned if you do, or damned if you don't". I think most people here are supporting the idea.

[Full Fullish on 27.04.06 at 11:20]

Hmmmm I think you all know what I'm going to say on this one, but just to hear my keyboard go clickity click again, here goes.

I personally feel it's an excellent idea. I'm in support of the regiment, or any other organisations that provides a service back to the Island, which in the same instance also instills comradery amongst the conscriptionaries, discipline as well as an additional means to learn new skills or improve on leadership and possible role model abilities. At the same time I think that the conscriptees should be rewarded for participation and what better than helping with education?

I think they should also provide this for Reserve Police volunteers as well as St. Johns Ambulance as well.

While I will agree that education should be made available to all, I would favour these guys as they are contributing back to society by doing their time, instead of sitting on a wall somewhere complaining that the world is passing them by. I think it's a great idea and one hell of an incentive to people who can't afford to further their education. Now they can join the regiment and further their education, it's a win/win situation for everyone in my books. Bermuda benefits from the volunteers for providing a service and the soldiers benefit from obtaining leadership skills, stronger character traits AND a better education to boot. Where is the downside of this again?

[Cynic on 27.04.06 at 11:26]

Silencedogood,

I agree that most posters support this. My comment was toward Limey's initial post.

[silencedogood on 27.04.06 at 11:44]

I missed the "you"--my bad.

[Guilden M. Gilbert, Jr. on 27.04.06 at 12:02]

Jake,

You seem to forget that Jamahl is a politician who has jumped from ship to ship in order to get a seat in the House of Assembly. If he can't be consistent in political philosopphy how can we expect him to be consistent in his babblings? He will attempt to ride any wave that could possibly result in more votes for him.

[Bill Cook on 27.04.06 at 12:17]

As previous posts confirm I am very pro regiment for what I see are its postives already outlined.

I am in favour of education period but tend to lean towards education that is career friendly as it were.

By that I mean time is important and education therefore should be career specific as it seems wasteful to spend a lot of time on subject matter that may never be used.

It may be helpful to have all the disciplined services under one umbrella and the educational training geared towards training Bermudians for careers in them and cut back on the need to bring in people from overseas given the current stress on our infracture.

It seems to me we have an abundance of retired yet youthful people who could be utilised in this area.

I am aware that many may disagree and prefer that education should be general rather than career specific but I feel perhaps to do otherwise we may be supplying round pegs for square holes.

[Seán Pòl Ó Creachmhaoil on 27.04.06 at 12:58]

Currying the favour of an army of short-service conscripts, without a single general, is daft. It might be prudent for potential oligarchists, or dictators, in many other places teetering off the edge of democracy to consolidate their control over the military, but it seems pointless, here. Your supposed to bribe the Generals!…then rely on their control of their soldiers. Better off giving gifts to policemen, in Bermuda. The Regiment supposedly exists as an economical reserve for the Police. If they’re going to increase its cost, why not just hire more Police, or Police Reserves?

I doubt they're going to give the Commanding Officer a new house. They might win his affections with a new main battle tank, some stinger missiles, or increasing the size of the Regiment (raise the age of conscription?), giving it more powers, and making more of it full-time…but the turnover of COs is so high that that CO will be back on Civvie Street when the time comes to call in his favours. Maybe he could be made Field-Marshall for Life (or Death)? But, we've already got one 'The Colonel'.

A significant portion of those conscripts who cannot afford a tertiary education probably haven't reached the educational standards necessary for admission, anyway. The money would be better spent in secondary schools preparing them to the point where they might have some hope of gaining a scholarship - many of which seem, from my casual observation, not to go to the neediest sector of our population.

I agree that giving such benefits only to Regimental conscripts is discriminatory. We'd also do better to scrap military conscription, if not the Regiment, and just give the lucky youths whose names are drawn by ballot a scholarship, or a house, or a small business loan... Then, instead of wasting three years of their lives learning how to shoot other Bermudians, they can just get on with life.

Of course, as every other argument for the continued existence of conscription fails to withstand inspection, giving money to conscripts might simply be seen, absurdly, as justifying it. We'll sneer, and say that's silly, but once we start doing it, I guarantee it would be brought up afterwards, everytime someone proposed ending conscription/the regiment, as a reason why it was better for Bermuda to keep it. The regiment is a military unit. It's predecessors existed entirely to guard and defend the naval and other strategic infrastructure from foreign attack. No one seriously proposes the Regiment plays a similar function today. It's few embodiments during the period of social change and strife that resulted from the equal rights challenge to racial discrimination are unlikely to be repeated. It’d be cheaper not to waste millions of dollars a year, for decades, until a two-week embodiment punctuates the Regiment’s somnolence. I spent 5 years in the Regiment without ever seeing a chainsaw, or a rake. The notion that we 'need' it in case of a hurricane is absurd. It's a good thing we had it during Emily, then, or 750 young men would have sat on their rear-ends in idle sloth, while the rest of us would surely have perished. No army in the world is maintained to clean up trees after a storm, even if they’re occasionally put to that use. None is maintained to pick up rubbish bags during strikes by public workers. None is maintained to help elderly ladies cross the street, or to paint children’s playgrounds. None of these, however handy, even collectively, is a justification for the retention of the Bermuda Regiment. They’re certainly no justification for the retention of conscription. The inevitable final argument is that the Regiment is good for young men, and teaches them values, skills, and tolerance for others, and makes them many chums that they’d never have met if they’d spent their evenings and weekends in clubs, or on the beach (it follows, presumably, that enslaving them into this involuntary service under penalty of law must be good for them, too). That would not be my observation. Most conscripts I met felt violated by conscription, were inefficient soldiers, and left the Regiment as they entered - except three years more mature. A not insignificant number left with criminal records that they would not have had if not for their being conscripted. We can dismiss these as the incorrigible few, but they seem like exactly the few who were most in need of the benefits the Regiment supposedly brings to the characters of its recruits.

I recently mentioned elsewhere that I'd noted the strongest supporters of conscription seem to be women. I'm a bit of a chauvinist when it comes to the role of women in the military, as I reckon military efficiency is more important than political correctness (and don’t like the idea of women getting shot, and would be hurt to be shot by one), but why is it that Bermuda's women are denied the benefits that the Regiment already shovels onto young men unbidden? Shouldn't they protest that they are entitled to the right to be conscripted, and to share in those benefits?

I may have wandered from the precise nature of this topic, but I've long been suspicious about anything that is said or done about the Regiment. It seems too prized by this with other agendas, who are always seeking to extend its size and power, and to add new reasons we don't need to keep it about, not cleverly disguised as reasons we do. I don't argue to disband the unit, but I do think Bermuda would get by perfectly well without it (just because you put something to use doesn't mean you NEED it), and would be better off for the end of conscription. I think the Regiment would be better off without conscription, too. I hear the protests that it wouldn't be able to retain its manpower, but I fail to see why that's an issue, especially when it cannot do its job (yeah, it passes the CO's test exercise every year. I doubt it would pass the IRA's, let alone the NVA's). Scale its authorised size down to one that could be met by volunteers, and save even more money. Spend it on education. The dubiousness of the purported arguments for the Regiment, and for conscription, make me wonder what the real reasons are. Are we simply unable to let go of the trappings of out (Imperial) military past? Are the military parades the last hinge of tourism? Is it that those with secessionist aspirations feel that independence would not give them any self-respect if it came without a big, powerful army like real countries have? Maybe we'd need to start a few wars, just to prove our man/nation hood... Or, is it that any undemocratic, illegal consolodation of power that might follow a theoretical independence could make handy use of martial force? You've got me... But, if we need to crew boats for anti-drug patrols, I say give them to marine police. If young males are in the Regiment because they lack the cash to go to university, omit the Regiment and just give them the cash while they can still remember whatever facts they learned in school.

[boogie on 27.04.06 at 13:25]

It's a good thing, but it is part and parcel of the promotion of the regiment by the Progressive Labour Party in its plans for independence. Gradually since 1998, the Regiment's soldiers have taken an increasing role in duties, like chauffeuring and security. There was even the claim a year or more ago that the Regiment could be used as peacekeepers.

Conscription, in a modern western democracy is wrong, and unfair, and no matter how much our progressive government dress it up, places an unfair burden on a minority of our population.

Does Bermuda need a military force to patrol it's 200 mile terriorial limits? Yes. Does Bermuda need a smaill military force to protect its governor, premier and possibly a few others? Yes. Does Bermuda rely on conscription to maintain numbers in the face of the November 11 parade and other parades? Yes. Could Bermuda get by with 40 to 50 full timers and another 150 paid part-timers? Yes. Would such a system work for parade coverage? Yes.

Think about it, half of the Bermudian population are exempt from conscription. A significant proportion of the rest escape through the loophole by being a Police cadet for two years and then are exempt from the draft forever.

If we were to study it, I think we would see that less than one in five of young Bermudians are called up and serve. That is not fair and offering them a college education is just window dressing. But we will never study the numbers because it will crush notions of duty to country and the ruling party's plans.

[Phil on 27.04.06 at 13:31]

The consensus seems to be that the soldiers deserve something in return for the service they provide to the community.

This does seem to make the act of service more selfish than selfless, but I’m not particularly worried about that.

However, serving in the Regiment is not the only – or, in my opinion, even the best – way of giving something back to your country. Soldiers are not the only ones giving large amounts of their time and energy for low pay.

Some people may decide that they would rather spend their time being a Big Brother or Sister instead of serving in the Regiment. They might prefer to give their time to the Women’s Resource Centre or any number of other charities. Are they not also giving service to their community? Are those contributions any less valuable? Why should they not have access to the same grants as the soldiers? What’s so special about the Regiment?

I’m sure some of the recruits do benefit from the discipline the Regiment instills in them, but do the soldiers really give more back to their community than those doing other kinds of charitable work? I’m not convinced.

Moreover, serving in the Regiment is not like serving in the Armed Forces in any other country. The chances of you being asked to put your life on the line are vanishingly small. So I don't see that as any argument for giving the Regiment preferential treatment, or as a justification for offering soldiers the same educational opportunities that a member of, say, the US army might have access to.

However, at the crux of my argument is my belief that government subsidies should be awarded based on need, not service. I believe that taxpayers’ money should be targeted in places where it can do most good. In its current form, the plan is an incentive to join the Regiment. It's not a plan to improve access to education for disadvantaged Bermudians. I think the latter is a much better use for taxpayers' money than the former.

(It’s fine for a private company to offer a scholarship to a student based on merit more than need, because it’s their own money and they can do with it as they please.)

Doug

Although it would be nice for Gov't to subsidize everyone's education, you can't always pay for everyone

I agree. But why should my taxes be available to someone like yourself to attend courses at Bermuda College, when you have the money to pay for them yourself? I’d much rather poorer Bermudians got that money, who lack the opportunities that you have had. (Onion – I’d be interested to hear why you dismiss this argument as “irrelevant”.)

jake/Guilden

I’m disappointed that you have chosen to engage in ad hominem attacks instead of addressing the points that I raised.

[Jamahl Simmons on 27.04.06 at 13:59]

Jake, you are woefully misinformed. I have never opposed the Regiment. It is conscription I oppose. And yes this does differ from my Party's position. I have on numerous occasions praised the Regiment for their works in the community and have publicly praised Col. Lamb for the work he is doing.

My contribution to this issue was from the perspective of a) Supporting what the PLP is doing and b) Suggesting ways for this to help more people

[Sleepy on 27.04.06 at 14:16]

The PLP's suggestion and Jamahl's should be supported. I also see Phil's point. There's no reason in an island such as ours that we shouldn't pay for further education for all our people. I'd support scaling back or shutting down the Bermuda Collge, other than for trades perhaps, and using the savings to pay for university level education for anyone who wants it. That would be a great investment in our people and island.

For the Jamahl haters: His positions are easily reconcilable in my opinion. I don't recall his stance, but my guess is that he doesn't support the regiment because he opposes conscription which he sees as heavy handed. In return for forcing young men into military service he supports increased educational programs for former conscripts.

Seems reasonable enough.

[Bill Cook on 27.04.06 at 14:29]

Limey as a self admitted Liberal Softie per your original post of Jan /05 its unlikely that your view of the Regiment has changed anymore than your dislike of being shouted at on a wet cold field performing a harsh physical activity has reversed Smile !

A big point for the regiment is that the infrastructure is well established and in my opinion needs to be thoroughly examined to develop it in other areas that would benefit the community in a cost effective way.

There may an element of our society that could well benefit from the regiment as an alternative to prison time for small time criminal activity and would benefit by having some additional personal to oversee this area.

It makes sense to be constructive in streamlining and improving the Regiment by sensible input rather than simple opposition for what sometimes appears weak reasoning in my viewpoint.

[Cynic on 27.04.06 at 14:33]

Sleepy,
I would never close down the college. I graduated from there, and the standards from there are very good. In the Associate Degree programs I believe a solid foundation is achieved and most of my fellow students felt very prepared when they went overseas to complete their studies. U say that we should shut it down other than for trades and use the savings to send students away for university education. The education at Bermuda College should not be underestimated and disregarded. It allows many young people a start on their college educations at much less than the incredulous costs of overseas education.

[Guilden M. Gilbert, Jr. on 27.04.06 at 14:42]

Limey.

"I’m disappointed that you have chosen to engage in ad hominem attacks instead of addressing the points that I raised."

Posted by The Limey on 27.04.06 at 13:31

I think I did address your points but it should be remembered that when you make your opinions public (especially when your opinions tend to flip flop) you open yourself up for ridicule. Is this not even more so for a politician, particularly one whose ideology has swung across the entire spectrum of the local political sphere? That's fair game as far as I am concerned.

When Grace Bell walked across the floor from the UBP to the PLP it was out of principle. Jamahl jumping from party to party is more about opportunitism, is it not?

[Onion on 27.04.06 at 14:51]

Limey says,

"Moreover, serving in the Regiment is not like serving in the Armed Forces in any other country. The chances of you being asked to put your life on the line are vanishingly small."

It is a fact that the average US soldier throughout history has NOT seen action. That does not mean they should not train for action. This does not mean their commitment is any less admirable. The same applies for Bermuda.

You say the chances of putting your life on the line are in Bermuda Regiment are "vanishingly small". And what do you base this on Limey? You are not serious are you?

"I’d much rather poorer Bermudians got that money, who lack the opportunities that you have had. (Onion – I’d be interested to hear why you dismiss this argument as “irrelevant”.)"

It is irrelevant because the grant or subsidy is given not just on need but as a reward for service. I repeat, it is not discriminatory because ANYONE can volunteer for service.

You continue to harp on the fact that other services do not get such subsidies. It is my understanding that the Regiment approached Government to initiate this program. If other services would like to benefit from similar programs they are free to approach government as well.

"I’m sure some of the recruits do benefit from the discipline the Regiment instills in them, but do the soldiers really give more back to their community than those doing other kinds of charitable work? I’m not convinced."

Limey, I take it that you have done extensive studies on this? Been to camp lately? In any event, you cannot equate a soldier's duty with that of a Big Brother. The former is an arm of the government that is performing a role for the country and sanctioned by the country. The Bermuda Regiment is not just an independent charity. Would you give US Army troops the same scholarships as a Big Brother?

SPOC,

You may agree or disagree with conscription. That is you choice. But whilst it is on the books where is the harm in offering a soldier an opportunity to gain some academic/tertiary skills?

[9er on 27.04.06 at 16:50]

There is a letter to the editor in today's RG about the RG written by "Watchful Eye". It is complete bollocks and represents the type of misinformation that is typically spread about the Regiment.

I would implore anyone who is against conscription to at least print the truth. This person has obviously taken one or two isolated incidents perpetrated by wayward individuals and used them to distort the regiment as a whole. It is unfortunate this same author did not make mention of the new tuition scheme.

[Denis Pitcher on 27.04.06 at 17:06]

This has certainly been an interesting thread, it has really opened my eyes to the argument of what is the regiment's real purpose?

Being realistic, Bermuda will never be the target of an attack. Simply because, there is nothing here to gain from taking us over.

In the past, there was strategic value, today there is none. Technology has advanced warfare to the point where missles can be fired from a place like iran, directly into the US. Nuclear subs can stay underwater for months and sail right up to the US coast.

Strategically, we have no benefit.

What is there to gain by taking us over?
- Our tourism?
- Hmm, how about our international business sector so heavily contained in one area that a single bomb could wipe it out.
- Hmm, how about the drive and will of our natives?

I'm not coming up with many supporting arguements here.

The regiment seems to be fit for the duty of disaster support and support for the police. I agree with earlier posters that this may be a duty better served by creating a better addition to the police then specifically a militaristic one.

From the conscription point of view, I'm not fond of regiment. My own personal situation involves me having been conscripted at the age of 21 or 22 while abroad at school. Don't ask me why they waited so long after I turned 18 to do so.

Looking at the big picture, I'm turning 25 soon. I'm at the height of building my career. I certainly agree with giving back to my community, and this is the very focus of much of my own political efforts. From my own personal position however, I don't see the regiment as offering any benefit to me and I feel there is more I could do for our community through my own efforts. Any of the team skills, physical drills, dicipline and any other benefits I already gained being part of a varsity football team while away at school as well as various sports in my youth. I am a well educated and productive member of society, I have no maturing to gain out of regiment at this juncture.

What I see are two things. I'm working very hard to decide my own future. Either I invest in Bermuda by trying to buy a home, should I even be able to find one I can afford, or I save up my money and look for a job off island to build a future elsewhere.

Buying a home means I'm going to have to dedicate a hell of alot of overtime just to struggle to afford a mortgage. Leaving the island means there is more opportunity and very simply I wouldn't even have to consider regiment at that point. I'm not suggesting I want to leave, but it is one more reason for many who share my position to give it consideration in terms of getting ahead in our careers.

If I have:
- 1 night a week
- 6 weekends a year
- 2 week camp
in terms of commitment to fullfill. Certainly it isn't a hell of alot, but it is time that takes away from my ability to get myself ahead.

I paid for most of my own schooling through hard work. In the summers I worked 2 and 3 jobs to be able to afford my tuition and living costs. I did all of it so I could get ahead.

I know people won't like it, but Regiment in my own personal view will set me back. I am certainly not against doing it as I believe I owe it to my country if it is the duty of what others have done and there is a benefit to our community, even if I can't see it. Honestly however, I don't want to do it and don't see any benefit given the stage I am at today. Especially considering I'm going to be quite a bit older and more mature then the group of 18 year olds being drawn in who will likely be quite immature in comparison.

I feel that if we really wanted to encourage our youth to get a good education, we'd give more opportunity to those pursuing it. There is more then enough opportunity on this island if you have the drive to pursue it, I proved it by working my butt off, but I made it. I believe regiment should be turned into more of a boot camp to curb those who don't know what they're doing with their lives into having some dicipline and getting on with it.

If you've got clearly set goals, plans and aspirations to make something of yourself, then I don't see much benefit in it. The only justification I can see is that we need to rob these people of their plans so they can be part of the team that curbs those who don't have one. If it's contributing back to our community, then why not make it manditory for every high school graduate to complete a certain number of hours of community service in the way they see fit? Big Brother, fire service, police, regiment, whatever.

Overall, for those in my position who have a great deal they will be able to contribute to our society when we've established ourselves, we're getting the short end of the stick in being slowed up.

As I said before, I shall fullfill my duty as well I feel it is my obligation and really I don't have a choice otherwise aside from leaving the island.

It should be of note however that for all the up and coming hard working youth, it's just one more notch on the list of reasons for why investing our lives and our future in Bermuda may end up yielding no fruit, especially when a future elsewhere is getting closer to looking promising as Bermuda becomes less and less affordable.

[Cancundreaming on 27.04.06 at 17:14]

As i read this thread, specifically but not exclusively Onion's response to Limey' post. I can help but look back to the recent thread "I'm okay, you're biased" specifically the discussion on decision-maker objectivity.

I'm not sure if anything will come of it, but perhaps it's something we should all take another look at.

[Denis Pitcher on 27.04.06 at 17:36]

I'd like to follow up on Bill's earlier comment regarding turning regiment into an alternative for small prison time.

I think combining that with making it full time for these individuals and adding in training for skilled trades would be a good move. (plumbing, electrician, masonry, etc)

It doesn't even necessarily have to be the regiment as I think that kind of boot camp style approach to rehabilitating wayward youth would go a long way to stopping them early from going down the wrong path.

[Canuck in Bermuda on 27.04.06 at 19:52]

I think that providing this as a "benefit" to doing your time in regiment is great idea. I also agree with Limey that it should be extended to all Bermudians who complete, or commit to complete a public service (police, abmulance, fire, agree to public defend for x years, etc)

I'd love to see it extended to every Bermudian, regardless of service, with say... the provision that they remain "in good standing" at their chosen institution. Something like that could be done on a sliding scale similar to income taxes... household income less than x, 100% funded, then a decreasing percentage funded after that.

It's just kinda funny that Limey is suggesting that there be a scheme where all Bermudians who can't pay for education get the chance to go (and due to historical factors, an overwhelming percentage of these people will be black), and we've got PLP supporters jumping on Limey for trying to out PLP the PLP!

This is a great *start* to a policy, but in the end should be available to all Bermudians. An education is the ultimate Swiss Army Knife... which may or may not be legal here anymore ;)

[Guilden M. Gilbert, Jr. on 27.04.06 at 20:17]

Canuck in Bermuda,

Sure it would be great to extend this to all Bermudians, now please explain the economics of paying for this benefit for all Bermudians without introducing (or should I say extending the existing) an income tax regime.

It all well and good to say the country should do this or that but to do this or that requires funding. From where I sit I see numerous complaints about the size of the existing budget. Just imagine what size the budget would be if this were to be made available to the general public.

The difference between doing this for public service personnel and doing it for the general public is that, generally (I said, generally) public service personnel earn less income than someone in the private sector doing the same or a similar job. This means that the government pays less than private sector employers for the same job and the difference in salary is made is generally made up in benefits, of which this is potentially one. Which is what happens in most places around the world.

Nobody is trying to out PLP anyone else we are only looking at it logically based on the availability to raise and distribute funding. Further, How do you define who can and cannot afford education? Maybe a family has a big mortgage (average price of a home is $1.3 million) in order to put a roof over their heads. The size of the mortgage may not allow them to save sufficient funds for education. Do they qualify under your definition?

I happen to think this proposal is a good idea because the Regiment needs manpower to operate, conscription is not favourable to many so if there are sufficient benefits the Regiment might just attract a few good men to enlist voluntarily.

[Onion on 27.04.06 at 20:24]

Why is it that when people refer to the Regiment they only think it is a benefit to "troubled youth". The Regiment's purpose is not to be a reform school.

Denis, I've read a lot of your posts in the past and although I do not always agree with you I appreciate your honesty. Surprisingly the main thrust of your lasts posts seem to be that you don't want to join the Regiment because you don't think you can "get ahead". You imply it is only for immature 18 year olds. Do you think actuaries, doctors and lawyers have not benefited from the Regiment? Do you not think tese people have also greatly contributed?

Just wait until you get an opportunity to serve. There is no substitute for personal experience.

[Canuck in Bermuda on 27.04.06 at 20:41]

Guilden,

I agree... tons of problems there. Just tossin' ideas out.

The part I accidentally left out was where for those people on the sliding scale, you essentially get "credits" for regiment, police, etc service

I agree my suggestion is full of holes, just trying to stir up thought. Education is the only investment that always pays you back, so yeah... while an island-wide free education would be cost-prohibitive, a carefully-crafted version that approaches the ideal would provide enormous returns.

By all means, start with the regiment and maybe a couple of other areas... but eventually extend the program to have a broader and broader reach

[smith on 27.04.06 at 20:42]

...or you could leave Bermuda, and experience the real world.
Bermuda has beautiful beaches...but so does Cuba.
Bermuda wants to be the center if E-commerce, but won't allow transactions involving porn or gambling.
Bermuda is viewed as a backwards little republic, by the rest of the world.

[Calvin on 27.04.06 at 21:14]

I sat down in front of my computer tonight with an aim to explain why those who have served or are currently serving in the Bermuda Regiment, and therefore the real 'victims' of conscription, are so quick to defend the institution, where in contrast the opposing side is almost entirely composed of those who have not spent much time within the gates of Warwick Camp but are steadfastly against the insitution and its ways.

I was going to begin by telling stories of the things I've seen, lessons I've learned and friends I've made over the last 16 months or so, but I quickly realized that these words won't be enough to convince many of you that, in this case, the ends (captive audience of fresh soldiers to attempt to mould into more productive men) justifies the means (conscription).

Yes, I've been brainwashed. It all seems a bit too religious even for me. Experiencing the environment is eye-opening and should be experienced by all.

[Calvin on 27.04.06 at 21:15]

Denis,

Two years ago, I was in a strikingly similar boat. I tried damn hard to get out of my conscription but eventually made my peace with it. Then, at some point I decided to make a negative a positive by taking advantage of what the Regiment has to offer. Currently, I'm on the road to Sandhurst for three weeks of possibly the best management training on the market at arguably the best military academy in the world.

Many times over, taking advantage of opportunities as they present themselves is enough to separate a successful life from a life of mediocrity or failure.

Life isn't fair, but so what.

[TJL on 27.04.06 at 21:29]

As a good friend of mine is keen to point out, the Regiment is a lot like a college fraternity. The power structures are mostly the same (you never have a chance to "get back" at the guys who made your life miserable); the shared suffering makes you bond with your fellow rookies with a speed and strength unparalleled elsewhere; and a lot of the reasons behind what you're doing are hidden until you climb the ranks.

But from the sounds of the above, there's another similarity - almost without fail, the most vocal defenders of the fraternity lifestyle are those who have taken part in it, while the most vocal of opponents have never had the experience themselves. Succumbing to propaganda, or is there just a different view from the inside? Having taken part in (and been thankful for) both experiences, I hope it's the latter.

[Denis Pitcher on 27.04.06 at 22:05]

Onion,

I greatly appreciate your candor and also have enjoyed reading your commentary even though at times I may have a difference of opinion.

By no means was I suggesting that regiment is only for immature 18 year olds. At 18, I considered myself quite mature for my age, just as now I am told I am mature for 24. Regiment would have been better for me at 18, but now I feel I can accomplish more.

My point is that Bermuda is suffering from serious Brain Drain as students who get accustomed to living abroad, weigh their options and decide to stay there.

Considering that rent is so high I'm struggling to save and the cheapest 1 bedroom condo I can find is $395 thousand, things don't look too promising in terms of establishing a future here. It'll take me years before I can live comfortably and even in the luxury of my own place where I don't live under the rules my landlord sets. Especially considering options those of us have abroad if we're well educated.

I certainly believe in the benefit of contributing to the community, but like others I do question the regiments overall purpose. It had it’s place years ago, but I question it’s validity now as times have changed. I would prefer more open ended options in terms of alternatives to regiment rather then being forced into it.

I have clearly been very vocal about the fact that I don't like where our island is headed. I believe that if it stays on the path it's on, I certainly won't have a future here. I returned to the island over taking up a career elsewhere because I decided I wanted to make a difference and entitle my own descendents with the same kind of wonderful opportunity to live in a place like this as I have been. Somewhere where many generations of my family has history.

I have been pretty open about the fact that I am neither a supporter of the UBP or the PLP and frankly I'm disappointed with the jobs done by both parties.

I've been working very hard in my free time outside my full time job to do what I can to contribute to getting more involved in politics. There aren't many youth out there interested in doing the same.

If I had my way, I'd devote my time to politics and hopefully run in the next election, but I am not sure if that’s realistic. The problem is as I said I've got a full time job and isn't not an easy struggle to dedicate time when your not a Cox, a Trimmingham or a Gibbons and your trying to balance a future for yourself as well as the island.

I don't see many others stepping up hoping to achieve the same, yet it is our youth that we most need representation from. The least I can do is give my best effort and dedicate what time I can to getting my ideas out there, being heard and trying to change people’s views for the positive.

Certainly I could go and do regiment, and sure I may well benefit from it. My concern is that I really want to something to make a difference while I can, while there is something worth saving. I'm single, I don't have a family and I have energy, drive, enthusiasm and passion. Most important of all I'm honest and of character and frankly I've got little to lose but my future in Bermuda.

If I end up having to do regiment then I might as well take the attitude of other talented youth I know in international business. Simply to give up on Bermuda, devote my time to my job, and go where the businesses go when this island goes in the toilet. Either that or start looking for jobs elsewhere.

Many of you may disagree with me, but from the perspective that I'm viewing the island we've got much bigger problems then racism. As long as that issue takes center stage, we're certainly going to lose track of how to sustain our future by targeting issues that aren’t most relevant to the success of ALL BERMUDIANS.

I'm not against doing regiment, I just would rather have the option to contribute to our community in my own way.

[Onion on 27.04.06 at 22:34]

Denis, I hear you loud and clear. I think you make some valid points. I just want you to take it from someone who has already done their time that service in Regiment doesn't necessarily conflict with a career. In many cases it can enhance your career. Eg.Calvin spoke about being on his way to Sandhurst. I'm sure just having that on his resume will put him in good stead. In addition, the contacts a person can make are invaluable - whether you are looking to work on a construction site or in an exempted company. I personally benefited from a few in my day.

I know of certain students who have gone away to live simply to avoid being in the Regiment. This is perhaps the most ridiculous thing I have ever heard. Do not allow yourself to be spooked by false horror stories to resort to such foolish measures.

You also mentioned above that Regiment's purpose is diminished because no-one is going to attack us. Our role was never to defend ourselves from outside attack. Our role has been to maintain civil order within the country and to provide disaster relief.

Denis, I would never say that the Regiment is for everyone. However, whatever decision you make, ensure that it is an informed one.

[Calvin on 27.04.06 at 22:50]

Recruit Camp 2005 saw my introduction to the Bermuda Regiment and as eye-opening an experience as it was, it paled in comparison to leading a section of recruits selected by that fearsome Black Box to be mine this past January. My section, Section 12, was an completely ordinary mixture of a couple rich kids, two recently freed guests of Westgate, a few university graduates, a heroin addict, a couple of high school dropouts, gang members, several momma's boys, fathers and sons. (I wonder how statistically representative this group was of our society.) Now I wouldn't say I did a fantastic job of leading this rabble, but we learned a lot together -- in fact I probably learned more than them.

Here's the kicker Denis, I thought I knew the problems faced by my fellow young Bermudian men before I was made their fearless leader for two weeks, protecting them from the wrath of our Sgt. and Lt. But 6 years of university had led me to be a bit out of touch...and now I'm in a much better situation to represent them. Likewise, for someone who so clearly wants to speak for the youth, I believe service in the regiment will put you in much better stead to do so.

I think you should consider this before declaring the lost time as wasted time.

[Denis Pitcher on 27.04.06 at 22:58]

Onion,

I was very close to doing regiment this year, but due to timing it just wasn't feasible because I had only started my job in Nov/Dec and hadn't yet found an apartment so I deferred.

I don't doubt Regiment's ability to give me more contacts, I have heard many stories of family members having done very well out of the relationships they made in regiment.

Frankly, I've also heard rumors that if your salaried your job still has to pay you during your 2 week camp in regiment. So aside from the evenings and weekends, it isn't too much of a cut, at least for those of us who are salaried.

My prime concern personally is the time commitment in regards to what else I hope to achieve.

In terms of others I feel that regiment can serve as a deterrent to those who would choose to stay abroad rather then returning to the island.

I am of two minds about regiment.

I feel a full time paid support group could be put together to assist in maintaing civil order (though I feel that if our people had more power over government, we wouldn't have civil order issues) and provide disaster relief would be just as effective without the need for conscription to force people into it. My views on the needs for a boot camp for wayward criminal youth is a separate issue that should be developed outside of regiment utilizing foreign military people who have no ties to bermuda to keep it an independent and uninfluenced rehabilitation.

The other is that I feel the regiment conscription is unfair and unjust. It should be an all or nothing venture for all youth. Especially if it is as valuable as many of the proponents of regiment claim.

If all youth (both male and female) were required to do the eqivalant time commitment of regiment in community service, regiment or otherwise, I believe it would be better then the "random" conscription and better for our community as a whole.

Either that or no requirement whatsoever.

Ultimately I only have one decision, should I stay or should I go. I'd rather stay if I can, thats what I'm fighting for.

Frankly I'd probably enjoy regiment, the chance to shoot guns, do some paintball and get hammered alot with a bunch of buddies of circumstance. I have no fear of the physical, for really I don't think there is anything I can be put through that will compare to what I had to do for american football. Even initation wise, as I had to do some humiliating things. I've lived the ranks of being a rookie.

I've got nothing against doing it, I'd just really like to make a difference politically before it's too late.

I just wish I had that choice, I don't. I'd like to have a say in keeping our island from going under but as calvin pointed out, life isn't fair. I may likely be driven into fending for myself and letting this island sink if it's going to. If it doesn't, everybody wins.

Ultimately I will be forced into serving whether I think I can make a difference elsewhere or not. The way I see it, there is no decision to make, unless I can do enough prior to convince the tribunal to let me continue my efforts when the time comes.

[Uncle Elvis on 27.04.06 at 23:09]

You know what? Anything that helps kids get an education is a good thing. ANYTHING that helps.