Independence poll

It appears that support for a referendum on independence hasn't suffered a catastrophic collapse, after all.

Although today's Royal Gazette reported that only "one in seven" people (14.3%) want the issue decided by referendum, the paper has confirmed that that should have read "seven in ten" (70%). The version of the story on the RG's website has not been corrected, however.

If the paper tabulated the results of such polls instead of writing them out in longhand, it might reduce the chance of such mistakes being made. The information would be easier to digest too:

Independence: Overall

Support independence	22%
Oppose independence	66%
Decide by referendum	70%
Decide by election	25%

Independence: By Race

	Black	White
Support independence	31%	12%
Oppose independence	54%	86%
Decide by referendum	68%	74%
Decide by election	25%	24%

Independence: By Sex

	Male	Female
Support independence	21%	21%
Oppose independence	71%	64%
Decide by referendum	68%	71%
Decide by election	28%	23%

Independence: By Age

	18-35	35-55	Over 55
Support independence	-	-	-
Oppose independence	66%	-	73%
Decide by referendum	58%	-	75%
Decide by election	37%	-	-

Independence: By Household Income

	<$50k	$50k-$100k	>$100k
Support independence	-	-	19%
Oppose independence	68%	-	75%
Decide by referendum	59%	70%	77%
Decide by election	34%	-	-

Comments

[Shark on 30.05.06 at 14:26]

As a political student polls must always be taken witrh a hint of scepticism but I think this shows the general feeling in Bermuda. If the poll is correct it's doubtful the PLP will pay any attention to it.

[Martin on 30.05.06 at 14:28]

Is my knowledge of Stats disappearing - or is it the case that you have to be under 18 to support Independence?

[Shark on 30.05.06 at 15:22]

Martin

I dont think many 18 year olds were in poll as there all out of country at university.

JJ

I try to spell corectly but a lifetime of speed typing causes bad habits :)

[novote on 30.05.06 at 15:40]

No doubt some clown in the government will read the Gazette, fail to realise the error that has been made, and announce a dramatic swing in the countries mood on Independence!!!

[lost in flatts on 30.05.06 at 15:44]

So erm, 66% of the country don't want it, and only 22% of the country do. You know that means...

EDUCATE THE 66%!!!

[Zoom on 30.05.06 at 16:16]

Be careful, lostinflatts. Don't mock the powerful. Or else Dr. Brown will have Handbag take your driveway away.

[OnDeWata __/)__ on 30.05.06 at 16:48]

So it seems that RG has omitted a significant chunk of the voting populous...

No one between 35 & 55 was polled
- AND -
Hardly anyone earning between $50-$100K was polled either.

Mistake? Probably not ENTIRELY intentional I wager.

[OnDeWata __/)__ on 30.05.06 at 16:51]

Oh, and 406 people out of 30,000 voters ... just over 1%.

Not good enough for my liking, sorry.

-Flushing sound-

[lost in flatts on 30.05.06 at 17:19]

1% of the population is pretty standard for such a poll. And if it's a random sampling (eg phone book method) then it's statistically sound.

But people will believe what they want to believe.

[SmokingGun on 30.05.06 at 17:33]

If it holds up that 54% of the black population is against independence then I would say that we have a great deal of people who are willing to truly understand the future instead of simply trying to run away from the past. I can understand the emotional desire to rid oneself of what might be considered a colonial life-style but it's encouraging to see people make a decision that recognises the benefits our relationship with Great Britain offers our future generations.

[Shark on 30.05.06 at 18:01]

people make a decision that recognises the benefits our relationship with Great Britain offers our future generations.

correct to all those that support independence please think of my generation and the generation after me not yours.

[Jamaican Q on 30.05.06 at 19:44]

As a Jamaican I can only say to Bermudians....be wary of Independence. Once you have to stand on your 2 feet you will see what the world is really all about. Big Companies will pull out, unemployment will go up....not to mention crime.....why? Because the onyl reason why British Overseas Territories are so "wealthy" is because they have the backing of the Motherland. Take it from me....within weeks you will be going to the World Bank to borrow money that not even your 7th Generation to come will ever be able to pay back.....Safer to be Uncle Tom!

[The Limey on 30.05.06 at 20:06]

OnDeWata

So it seems that RG has omitted a significant chunk of the voting populous...

No one between 35 & 55 was polled - AND - Hardly anyone earning between $50-$100K was polled either.

Not necessarily. These were simply all the results that were reported in the newspaper.

Another reason for just tabulating the whole lot, IMHO.

[Ethiops on 30.05.06 at 22:54]

Jamaican Q – Thanks for the heads-up I can only hope many will hear. It seems our leaders here are out of control pushing this idea when the mood of the people is clear. I remember watching the aftermath from Bermuda when what you described took place. Watching the increase in crime over the following years, the birth of rude boy culture etc, yeah I can only hope we never go down that road. The island is clear the in polls tho we don’t want the sickness that independence can bring

[Jamaican Q on 30.05.06 at 23:22]

Let me also add that when you become independent,poverty will be the order of the day....those unreal salaries people earn in Bermuda will be no more. Your lives will change and nobody will be able to tell politicians what to do. The electorate will be held in scant regard and what you know as Bermuda will be no more.

[sandgrownan on 31.05.06 at 10:33]

The insidious manner with which PLP ministers continue to spout anti-British continues.

Yesterday, his Lordship Brown was talking to St. David's Islanders about the bus service and said “Just from what I know and what I’ve heard I feel safe in concluding that St. David’s has been under-served,” Dr. Brown said.
He said the British colonial experience left a system that “the people are supposed to fit the schedule as opposed to having a schedule that fits the people’s needs”.

It's a constant stream of negativity and underhand comments that demean the debate. Dirty tactics.

[smith on 31.05.06 at 10:49]

I had no idea that the British government actually schedules the busses in Bermuda.
DO they do the ferry schedule as well?

[SmokingGun on 31.05.06 at 10:55]

He just can't help himself. Ask no plantation questions but knock the "british colonials" every chance you get. I guess he didn't get the irony of the fact that he was preaching to the Indians. A people who have been treated terribly by everybody, not just the brits.

[Amin Swan on 31.05.06 at 15:22]

I am a supporter of Independence (I know that I'm asking for trouble on this site)

The only argument that I can understand is the British Passport issue, although I have no desire to reside/work anywhere in Europe (Some may) but what buggs me is that Jamaica Q's postings jumped to the conclusion that poverty and lawlessness will follow Independence. That didn't happen in Barbados, Bahamas, Singapore, San Marino, in fact these countries are better off now than when they were dependent and they are also very small nations. Let's use Monsseratt as an example; they are still under British rule like Bermuda, but were facing a catastrophe when their volcano erupted. They received minimum assistance from London, they actually received more help from the UN and fellow Island neighbours. This to say that if you all think that London is some saving grace, you are sadly mistaken. Sure you can pick many Independent Nations which are poverty stricken, but it's not because they are Independent, it's because of many underlying issues like corrupt Governments and having not had stable economy's/government's to begin with.

Guilden - get ready! lol

[sandgrownan on 31.05.06 at 15:26]

Amin - tell you what - give me some tangible benefits of Bermuda being independent. How about, say, five tangible benefits. Tangible doesn't incude crap about destiny and national pride either.

[jsmith on 31.05.06 at 15:28]

"it's because of many underlying issues like corrupt Governments..."

Looks like you answered the question, thanks.

[SmokingGun on 31.05.06 at 15:30]

jsmith - you're quick on the draw. I like that. ; -)

[Amin Swan on 31.05.06 at 15:32]

jsmith,

You obviously have no Idea what a corrupt goverment looks like - trust me, if you are saying that we have one you may want to take a trip to Jamaica or a few European countries, better yet hop on a Plane to Washington D.C.

[Guilden M. Gilbert, Jr. on 31.05.06 at 15:32]

Amin,

I wouldn't waste my time responding to Jamaican Q. Because Jamiaca's economic problems did not begin until around 1983, 20 years after the country took independence in 1963.

Jamaica's dependence on bauxite is the major cause the currentstate of the economy, not independence from Britain.

You are absolutely correct about the Bahamas. The average Bahamian is much better off fiancially today then they were pre-independence.

I know the argument will lead to debt, however, a study of the Bahamas national debt status will show that less than $400 million is external and most of the internal debt is held by governmental bodies.

[silencedogood on 31.05.06 at 15:52]

...better yet hop on a Plane to Washington D.C.

Posted by Amin Swan on 31.05.06 at 15:32

Your right Amin. That must be why Washington is so desparate to have Alex Scott come for a visit--they want to know what his secrets are on how to avoid corruption. I feel fortunate you are blogging to tell us these things. ¡

[ken on 31.05.06 at 16:02]

I don't understand how u all continuously label the PLP government corrupt. Corruption is a very harsh term and you have proof of corruption by the government. It is sad that you continue to use the word with such reckless abandon.

[Amin Swan on 31.05.06 at 16:12]

Sandgrownan,

I was about to entertain you but "crap to do with National Pride" that, by far, is not the only reason but since you bring it up, most Bermudians have no clue of what national pride looks and feels like (yeah sure they are proud to be Bermudian) but ask them to sing the national anthem, I bet 1 in 100 actually know the words to it. It's crap to you because you don't understand what it is and how important it is. I spend 4th of July last year at Centennial Park in Atlanta with 1000's of Americans - when their anthem played, it brought tears to my eyes to watch the joy and pride those people felt - I could'nt relate to that as many Bermudians can't - hell you can't even get Bermudians to stand up when the Bermuda Anthem is played. It really buggs me when people act as though national pride is irrelevant.
I have my other reasons why I'm a supporter, but I am not feeling like a back and forth debate, as we have all been there many times.

[jsmith on 31.05.06 at 16:12]

"It is sad that you continue to use the word with such reckless abandon."

Sort of like that ad campaign:

"Bermuda, the height of human civilization."

Reckless abandon is this governments way of doing business!

[jsmith on 31.05.06 at 16:15]

"when their anthem played, it brought tears to my eyes "

I get teary eyed whenever an american opens their mouth to proclaim how wonderful they are...my stomache turns as well.

[loki on 31.05.06 at 16:15]

"Amin,

I wouldn't waste my time responding to Jamaican Q. Because Jamiaca's economic problems did not begin until around 1983, 20 years after the country took independence in 1963."

A very selective summary there, Guilden. The fact of the matter is that, once Jamaica decided to go it alone, it was forced to turn to the IMF and the World Bank, as it was incapable of handling itself economically alost from the outset. It certainly took some time for the IMF and World Bank policies to have a widespread impact on the country as a whole, but this is to be expected when we are dealing with countries, rather than uncle Ernie's mortgage with HSBC.

[SmokingGun on 31.05.06 at 16:19]

ken - with all due respect too often we hear the truth being corrupted. That alone would make me say our government is corrupt.

[Trebliso on 31.05.06 at 16:20]

I know the argument will lead to debt, however, a study of the Bahamas national debt status will show that less than $400 million is external and most of the internal debt is held by governmental bodies.

Posted by Guilden M. Gilbert, Jr. on 31.05.06 at 15:32

Guilden - who holds the debt is irrelelvant. Tangible forex reserves lend some support to the Japan MOF model and domestic savings help as well but where the debt lays is pretty immaterial. Hence the IMF notice served to the Bahamas when their model indicated the 3% rule being breached.

[loki on 31.05.06 at 16:21]

Trebliso - consider me *whoosed*

[Trebliso on 31.05.06 at 16:23]

shirley that should be a whoosh for the table in the corner.

[ken on 31.05.06 at 16:30]

SmokingGun,

You all tend to corrupt the truth as well in many areas, so can we assume you are just as corrupt.

[silencedogood on 31.05.06 at 16:32]

It is sad that you continue to use the word with such reckless abandon.

Posted by ken on 31.05.06 at 16:02

Apparently you are only sad when it's an argument against the PLP. Amin broadly, and inaccurately, indicted two continents in addition to Jamaica.

You didn't seem too sad about that--or did Limey delete your comment? That's what I thought.

[SmokingGun on 31.05.06 at 16:37]

"You all tend to corrupt the truth as well in many areas, so can we assume you are just as corrupt." - ken

Naaah, we're just wrong. But as soon as you start paying me to get it wrong then yes you can call me corrupt.

[Michael Taylor on 31.05.06 at 16:43]

All I really know about the Bahamian independence is that I got given a piece of land there by my Grandfather. My grandparents bought it pre-independence as part of a development on a canal. After independence, work on the development's infrastructure was abandoned and the land is now worthless (they gave it to me after they tried to sell it for as little as $500 a few years ago).

Guilden,

As far as I can tell my family as Bahamian landowners are in fact worse off post independence than before it. As someone who is in a much better position to know than my family, can you possibly show me where what I have been told about this is wrong? Why was my Grandparents' land valuable before independance and worthless after making me an accidental landowner in your adopted home?

[Amin Swan on 31.05.06 at 16:50]

Silencedogood,

?? Where again was I inaccurate?

[silencedogood on 31.05.06 at 17:03]

Does this ring a bell?

You obviously have no Idea what a corrupt goverment looks like - trust me, if you are saying that we have one you may want to take a trip to Jamaica or a few European countries, better yet hop on a Plane to Washington D.C.

Posted by Amin Swan on 31.05.06 at 15:32

I'm not familiar enough with Jamaica to comment, but I've spent most of my life studying the systems of government in both the US and EU.

You are way off base in your broad characterizations of either as "corrupt" and clearly don't apply the same standards here at home.

[JJ on 31.05.06 at 17:16]

"I have my other reasons why I'm a supporter, but I am not feeling like a back and forth debate, as we have all been there many times".

Never, not once, ever on this blog, the many times independence has been debated, has anyone EVER listed 5 non emotional benefits of going independent.

[Guilden M. Gilbert, Jr. on 31.05.06 at 17:22]

Trebliso,

For the record, the forex reserves held by the Cetral Bank of the Bahamas surpass the outstanding foreign debt.

The Bahamas Government is currently having no issue with meeting its financial obligation.

Further most people fail to realise what littel the British did for the Bahamas and dispite this the Bahamas has prospered under independence. How many know that it was not until after independence that most Family Islands had electricity and telephone service because the Brits could careless as their capital was in Naasau. How many know that after independence the Bahamas Government had to build schools and put in roads? How many know that the Bahamas has some 64 airports because it needs to provide airlift to all of its people and also be able to accommodate 5 million plus tourist each year.

You see cries of Bermuda becoming poverty stricten are nonsense as all the infrastructure is in place in Bermuda, which means the government does not have to raised the funds for the development of it.

Today the offshore banks are headed primarily by Bahamians, the few expats (as a percentage) report to Bahamian management. Ask Butterfield Bank how many of their staff here is foreign. The answer is ZERO. In my view, progresses is measured, not in how much or how littel debt a country carries but the positions its people hold within the economy and the quality of life its people enjoy.

How many Bermudians under the age of 40 can say that they own a half (or more) acre of property and live in 4,000+ square foot houses, while still living comfortably by having their kids in private schools and taking numerous vacations each year?

Loki,

The fact remains that Jamaica's problems today are primarily the result of the collapse of the global bauxite market. If you don't believe me there is tons of information available on it. Prior to this collapse in, I believe 1983 the unemployment rate was at single digits. Once this bauxite market collapsed the Jamaican economy collapsed with it. Overnight there was 25%+ unemployment, along with rampant inflation, this combined to cause the economy to stall.

Anyway, my views on independence are no secret so I see no necessity to continue on in this discussion because nothing has changed.

I will close with this, something I have said before, whiel I support independence I respect the fact that the majority of the population, from all polls taken show that there is no wish for independence. I also agree that the government shoul dnot pursue the matter at this time because it has so little support that it becomes a wasted effort. There are many issues that Bermuda has to deal with and at this time independence does not and should not take center stage. I would agree that polls should still be taken periodically but until a significant percentage of the population show support for it the time is better served on other matters.

[thisgrassman on 31.05.06 at 17:36]

Does this ring a bell?

You obviously have no Idea what a corrupt goverment looks like - trust me, if you are saying that we have one you may want to take a trip to Jamaica or a few European countries, better yet hop on a Plane to Washington D.C.

Posted by Amin Swan on 31.05.06 at 15:32

I'm not familiar enough with Jamaica to comment, but I've spent most of my life studying the systems of government in both the US and EU.

You are way off base in your broad characterizations of either as "corrupt" and clearly don't apply the same standards here at home.

Posted by silencedogood on 31.05.06 at 17:03

um um........ what about Russia post USSR meltdown? Not to mention a few of the Italian governments over the years. They change so much I can't keep up .......and then what about Berlusconi?

[Guilden M. Gilbert, Jr. on 31.05.06 at 17:40]

Mike Taylor,

Where exactly is the property you are referring to. Maybe I would be interested in buying it from you.

Let's look at one development underway in Eleuthera (an island to the north east of Nassau, 100 miles long and 1 mile wide and a population of about 14,000) Cotton Bay, the development, is scheduled to have roughly 1,200 high end (1.5 million +) private homes built on it, along with a hotel and a Jack Nicklas golf course. Each lot is currently selling (yes, selling, not just for sale) at more than $1 million each.

There is another development on Eleuthera to have some 45+ homes and each home will be pre-sold at more than $1 million. There is a development that has been going on for a number of years in Exuma, February Point (www.februarypoint.com) and each home is in excess of $1 million. Then there is Emerald Bay in Exuma, which is tied into the Four Seasons and Ritz Carlton. There is currently a $20+ million home in Exuma being constructed on private property, among other multi-million dollar homes.

There is a huge private home development going on in Rum Cay that is to be comprised of 1,000s of home and a new airport.

There is the Ocean Club Estate on Paradise Island, were properties, generally a 1/2 acre were sold at a starting price of $750,000 and with a minimum of 5,500 sq. ft. that must be built at an average cost of $330 per sq. ft.

Many of these homes are owned by Bahamians and most of the contractors are Bahamian with Bahamian labour.

Then there is the Cable Beach Strip, here in Nassau where a heads of agreement has been signed for a $1.7 billion project that will be managed by Starwood Hotels. This will create some 7,000 jobs, which includes the roughly 2,000 currently employed on the properties.

There are 1,000s of private homes under construction each year. There is a major boom in the construction industry and it will continue to the foreseeable future. Surely it is understood that as construction booms so to do property prices.

My home, now 8 years old had more than tripled in value as at the last apparaisal, 2 years ago.

So Mike, if you want to sell me that property, let's talk.

[Wake UP! on 31.05.06 at 17:45]

So..since Amin Swan cant give us any reasons...can any other pro-independence person give us the 'five tangible benefits' sandgrownan asked for? Amin Swan cops out like a baby when he says 'I have my other reasons why I'm a supporter, but I am not feeling like a back and forth debate' wtf??? make a list..u kno, 1) blah blah blah 2) yadda yadda ya 3)...and so forth not difficult to do but i have yet so see anyone do it. No excuses...put up or shut up.

Adios

[SmokingGun on 31.05.06 at 17:46]

Yo Mike, I'll double his offer.
Guilden - make room - I'm coming to town!

[Guilden M. Gilbert, Jr. on 31.05.06 at 18:01]

Mike,

On another note, I do not disagree that the property values could have fallen through the floor upon independence because the government, led by Sir Lynden Pindling, at the time took a very bold step in revoking work permits of foreigners and have non-belongers leave the country. This created much instability.

However, the basis of the bold measure of Sir Lynden and his government can be seen today in that Bahamians have full participation in their own country, which they did not have pre-independence.

[Michael Taylor on 31.05.06 at 18:15]

Guilden,

I don't doubt that property values are going way up and life is rosy in many places at all. At the same time, I am told that my propery value is certainly not. It's in Freeport and has no address because the road from the highway never got built. The developers pulled up stakes after independance or so I am told. It took them two days just to find it. At the risk of getting whacked for solicitation on Limey's site, please contact me if you are interested at tips.mike@gmail.com. You too SG.

I am still genuinely interested in knowing why this happened to our land (assuming it really is worthless)if the reason was not independence as I have been told. Any info you can give me would be greatly appreciated.

[The Limey on 31.05.06 at 18:28]

Mike/Guilden - Can you take your discussion offline, please? Thanks.

[It Does Matter on 31.05.06 at 18:34]

Whenever somebody wants to convince some hapless fool of something, he tells the hapless fool to look at statistics. Every smart person knows that statistics reflect nothing. Take a class you dummies.

Further, if they did mean something: how do you account for such a huge disparity between the White and Black opinion on independence. It seems significant.

Why does 80+% of Whites oppose independence, yet the numbers are so much lower on the Black side?

Independence isn't a racial issue, is it? LOL

[SmokingGun on 31.05.06 at 18:45]

Take a class you dummies.

70,000 x 60% = 42,000 x 54% = 22,680 black
70,000 x 40% = 28,000 x 80% = 22,400 white

Roughly 300 more black people than white people want things to stay the way they are. Independence isn't a racial issue. It's a Bermudian issue.

[The Limey on 31.05.06 at 18:54]

It Does Matter

You start your comment by saying statistics reflect nothing. You end by drawing an inference from the statistics you have just condemned.

It seems you want to have your cake, and eat it too.

[Michael Taylor on 31.05.06 at 19:03]

Guilden,

What you are telling me about the land and Freeport is not different to what I have been told. My family never assumed it was the government's fault at all(the present government's that is) but I am told that the situation in that particular development (roads, electricity, water were never installed as planned) is directly a result of independence. Investors were buying it up like hotcakes before, and ceased completely immediately after. With no invetors, there was insufficient capital to complete the development. Is this so, or is that maybe an uninformed assumption my grandparent's made?

Please note that I would not suggest that investors were right (or wrong) in being frightened away by independance. In the same way I would not suggest that investors/IB would be right or wrong to pull up stakes in an independent Bermuda.

You mention that the low value is partly due to a property glut, but that would hardly matter to my family who just wanted to build on the thing. That also doesn't help explain why it was valuable before independence when the glut would have been slightly greater than now, and worthless some time after. However, the work permit revokation you mentioned does, and you have conceded such which I respect very much.

[Michael Taylor on 31.05.06 at 19:05]

Limey,

Sure. Delete as you see fit.

[Jamaican Q on 31.05.06 at 19:14]

I noticed that it has been stated that Jamaica's problem began around 1983...not true....shorlty after independence with the experimentation of "democratic socialism" (1970s) is when the problem began. Do not use Singapore as an example of a successful independent country. Beleive me...Bermudians would die if they had to live under the rule of Lee Quan Yu and his tough policies...which incidentally lasted 30 years. Don't use Barbados or Bahamas either....they are only independent in name and not nature. What did it for Barbados was education but low living standards. Are you prepared to do both? I doubt that.

Ok..you may choose to downplay what I say, but I am just giving my view on independence.

[Amin Swan on 31.05.06 at 19:25]

As I mentioned before I have my reasons for supporting Independence and have voiced them over and over right here on this site - I don't have time to debate the same ol same ol. If you want, look in past postings regarding my stand on Independence and some of my reasonings behind it. I apologize to the Johnny come lately's on this site but Limey knows that we have been down this road before.

[Jamaican Q on 31.05.06 at 19:33]

Amin I hope the reasons for you supporting Independence is for the good of all and not for your own personal reasons. That is what happens with this Independence debate anywhere...people support it for private reasons and forget about the greater good. Independence and the same quality of life Bermudians now experience are not synonymous...as long as the average Bermudian understands that!

[Huh?? on 31.05.06 at 19:41]

I know this is harping back to something mentioned much earlier, but what is the Bda national anthem? I thought it was "God Save the Queen"

[Guilden M. Gilbert, Jr. on 31.05.06 at 19:57]

Jamaica Q,

I agree that democratic socialism was a harmful aspect on Jamaica's economy, under which regime Michael Manley attempted economic independence from the industrialised nations. This was a mistake and any country attempting to do it today would also be making a mistake.

However, why would you think that Bermuda would face economic hardship through independence if at the end of the day the current domestic political would more than likely be unchanged.

I do understand and respect the fears and concerns of those that oppose independence for Bermuda. At this time a majority do not want it and therefore, it should be removed from the table at this time.

I beg to differ with you on the Bahamas, Barbados, I know something about but clearly not as much as I do about the Bahamas.

A the time of independence for the Bahamas when Pindling and his government hade foriegn workers leave along with "non-belongers" there was some economic turmoil in the Bahamas. However, there was some method to his madness, in that he did it to create opportunity for his fellow Bahamians, especially black Bahamians as they were excluded from the economy.

Theh actions of the government cause international business flight. However, the Bahamas today is a major offshore banking center and it the jewel of the Caribbean with regard to tourism. The Bahamas has done extremely well under independence. I just heard on the news today that the foreign reserves of the Central Bank of the Bahamas currently sit at more than $600 million. Up from $350-$380 million just a few years ago.

Surely this is a sign of a healthy economy.

Bermuda does not have the racial turmoil it once had, so that is not a reason for independence, Bermuda, as whole is not suffering from a financial perspective, so that is not a reason.

As I said I respect those that oppose independence and I would not chastise or try to degrade those that oppose it. The reality is, it is very difficult to agrue with the "it ain't broker so why fix it" comments.

I will will admit that much of my favouring independence is based on emotion, by that I mean that Bermuda as it is today was not created by Britain, it was create by the Bermuda House of Parliament having the forsesight to enact legislation that allowed the economy to be created and it was support by foreign interest.

I happen to believe that we can handle our own affairs without having the go to Britain for approval.

I do not think our football or cricket teams would necessarily play better but I think the national pride would be greater. Even with the issues that Jamaica has faced and is facing you cannot argue about the strength of the national pride of Jamaicans. I think that adds value in and of itself to a country.

Other see it different from me and that is ok because if we were all the same life would be kinda boring.

I would also agree with you that the Bahamas is not economically independent but neither is the world's only super-power. Every country is economically dependent on other countries. However, we are talking about political independence, which is very different from economic independence.

Those are my thoughts, I don't think I had any emotional outburst, did I?

[Amin Swan on 31.05.06 at 19:59]

Huh -

Exactly my point!
People tend to minimize the importance of a national idendity. Furthermore you won't catch me singing "God save the Queen" I don't even know the words.

[Shark on 31.05.06 at 20:03]

Like Amin most long time poster’s no why I am against independence.

Only emotional reason exists for Bermuda to go independent, there is no practical benefit of going independent. Listen the age of nationalism and independence died years ago we live in a global economy were no country can survive on its own. Maybe if Bermuda went independent at the same as the rest of the UK colonies things would be different but those times past. And do you really want Bermuda to be lead to Independence by the current
government? You’d have to be insane. I do not think Bermuda will suffer any big economic implications but you never know.

As a Bermudian studying in the UK I have a British passport on my mother's side so the passport issue doesn’t affect me but I know tons of my fellow friends who are studying in the UK that need the British passport that they are able to get. It is allot better then a visa which can take forever to get ember the world is allot bigger then the shores of Bermuda but some people think it isn’t. Say what you will about the current state of the EU Bermuda's future generations will loose out because people still think independence will give emotional closer to what happened in the past time to move on.

Not enough?

-Bermuda has 0 natural resources.
-Bermuda is wholly dependent on the outside world for well everything.
-The British parliament system has faults but it’s also has checks and balances that keep the government in line and make sure they don’t get overly powerful.

[jsmith on 31.05.06 at 20:04]

"...you won't catch me singing "God save the Queen" I don't even know the words"

...yet, your leaders speak with poorly "put on " british accents...why?

[Amin Swan on 31.05.06 at 20:33]

Shark,
I respect your view and do agree that the passport and EU access is a Great Benefit. As far as Im concerned it is the ONLY reason where dependence is a benefit to, "some." Now where I disagree is where you mention 0 natural resourses, and Bermuda being wholly dependent on the outside world, while that is true, hasen't that always been the case in our 375 year history? And haven't we prosperred despite that? (Refer to Guilden's last posting).
As selfish as it may sound I have no desire to live/work in Europe, not an ounce - nor do I know many Born Bermudians who are flocking to Europe to study/work and live, there are actually far more Bermudians studying/living/working in the US and Canada.

[Michael Taylor on 31.05.06 at 21:23]

Amin,

You are right that we don't have 0 natural resources. However, Bermuda's natural resources could support only about 10,000 people. Without IB or tourism or some other service-based international trade, some people would have to disappear somehow.
Prior to the relatively recent advent of tourism we were very much less dependent on the outside world for survival. We certainly benefitted from international trade, but we were not wholly dependent on it. We should also consider that the 10,000 figure comes from a time before tourism allowed our population to reach its current level and there was considerably more arable land and more fish.

[SmokingGun on 31.05.06 at 21:27]

Amin- the fact that Great Britain is historically a very valuable ally to the US allows us to travel freely within the US. (Canada's a different story for obvious reasons.)

Just because the US is interested in putting a Coast Guard station on Bermuda doesn't mean they want to make us the 53rd state. Or maybe it does. Hmmm... by George Dubya I think I've got it..... this is what the visit was all about...

[Amin Swan on 31.05.06 at 21:41]

Smoking Gun....
53rd state? who was the 51st and 52nd? : )

MIchael - I think you missed my point.

[SmokingGun on 31.05.06 at 21:50]

Afghanistan and Iraq. Where you been? :-)

[Amin Swan on 31.05.06 at 21:54]

Amin- the fact that Great Britain is historically a very valuable ally to the US allows us to travel freely within the US. posted by smoking gun

I beg to differ because if this was true, wouldn't all the territories (Turks/Cayman/Monserrat etc.) also have our easy access? - sorry but its far more to it than that. Also, already Independent Bahamas has equal access to the US similar to Bermuda.

[Amin Swan on 31.05.06 at 21:55]

Good one SG - now that was cute!:)

[SmokingGun on 31.05.06 at 22:07]

Amin - I just wanted to point out that Bermuda's current freedoms within the US is attributable to our being a part of the UK. There is no guarantee that after going independent we won't have to start getting a visa every time we travel via the US. As you are well aware the US is becoming more and more stringent about who it allows to come and go.

The most important thing is to fully understand what the consequnces of a decision made today will have on our children of tomorrow. And as of right now I just don't think we have anyone in position in Bermuda that should be taking us independent. Not even the UBP or a third party. We should wait another 10 years and see how well we are doing taking care of education, housing etc. before we set sail alone. If I honestly felt we were at the right time and place and all our ducks were in a row, I'd say sure lets go ahead. But it's not just about giving it a shot, the decision will be final.

[Guilden M. Gilbert, Jr. on 31.05.06 at 22:18]

SmokingGun,

Are you aware that there are visa forms that must be completed by British Citizens to enter the U.S. from a country other than Britain? Look out for it the next time you travel, the form is green. If our ability to freely enter the U.S. from anywhere in the world unencumbered (sp) is due to Britain negotiating it for us why did they not negotiate this for themselves?

As far as visas are concerned, Bahamians have visas in their passports but they are valid for 10 years, long than the passport is valid. Having to get a visa is no big deal, its a painless process. What's the big deal?

[Guilden M. Gilbert, Jr. on 31.05.06 at 22:19]

SmokingGun,

Here's the irony of the visa situation with the Bahamas, the Bahamas has U.S. Cucstoms and Immigration Pre-clearance, just like Bermuda.

[Michael Taylor on 31.05.06 at 22:22]

Amin,

Could be. Could be I'm just a stickler for facts too. I didn't really agree or disagree with the guts of your point(that we have always prospered somehow?), but I was answering the questions you posed (admittedly to Shark and not me).

[SmokingGun on 31.05.06 at 22:30]

Guilden - is the green form a visa form? I was talking about the need to go to an embassy or such and get travel visas etc.

[Amin Swan on 31.05.06 at 22:31]

Good Point Guilden.. In Ten years time most people here would be singing the same song of how the want to remain dependent on GB. Even if everyone is housed and both foreigner and local are skipping hand in hand down Horsehoe bay (Thanks Sandgrownwn ;) It'll never be the right time. Our Island would never know it's true potential and will never be fully democratic until were are Independent. As I mentioned before London can keep their Citizenship - I certainly don't want it. (My selfish self huh :)

[The Right Reverend Uncle Elvis on 31.05.06 at 22:38]

"As I mentioned before London can keep their Citizenship - I certainly don't want it."

I do! My sisters live in Turkey and, as I found out the hard way, as a British Dependant Territories citizen, you need a consulate visa to get into Turkey. With a British Passport, I don't have to do that.

So why do your WANTS outweigh my NEEDS?

And as for your list of reasons, I've been here pretty solidly for a while now and I STILL haven't seen ANYONE put forth a list of good, solid reasons why we should go Independant.
I'm sure Phil wouldn't mind if you posted them again... go ahead.

[Amin Swan on 31.05.06 at 22:43]

If getting to Turkey is your reason for being Dependent then I see where we will disagree - so maybe we can charge this to different lifestyles and cultures - you think?

[The Right Reverend Uncle Elvis on 31.05.06 at 22:49]

Um... reeeeead. Wanting to get into Turkey is my reason for keeping my British Passport. Nowhere did I say that was my reason for NOT going independant.

You said you didn't want it, I pointed out that I did. Then I asked a few questions.

But you keep being flippant. That's cool.

[SmokingGun on 31.05.06 at 22:49]

Guilden - I just took a look at the US Visa Waiver Program and there are only 27 countries listed. The UK being one of them. The Bahamas is not listed for the program. I think the green form is just to keep tabs on your comings and goings and is not anything to do with a visa. Sort of like the Bermuda Customs/Immigration Form which asks what state we live in. What's up with that? I always want to write "comatose" but I don't think they'd find it humorous.

[Amin Swan on 31.05.06 at 22:51]

By the way, my reasons for Independence are quite simple. I have faith in Bermuda to be able to handle its own affairs. Yeah go ahead and say how this Government is this and is that, but in perspective, we are one of the best Governed countries on the Planet. Other countries would dream to have our problems. Bermuda has done itself exceptionally well, and I beleive we can continue to do so. Small we are but with one of the most educated populace in the world. I really think it boils down back to this Black and White, Foreign and Bermudian rift - no one trust anyone to do anything.

[Adjustah on 31.05.06 at 22:58]

"I STILL haven't seen ANYONE put forth a list of
good, solid reasons why we should go Independant"

Not even one reason. Not one. Period.

[Michael Taylor on 31.05.06 at 22:58]

Tom: Hey Johnny!

Johnny: What's up Tom?

Tom: Why are you mixing the Yellow paint with the Blue paint?

Johnny: Because I have faith that it will still stick to the wall.

Tom: Oh, I thought you were trying to make green.

[Amin Swan on 31.05.06 at 23:13]

Adjustah,

It's time too that's why - we have done all that we can do under the UK to be as prepared as we can, mom aint gonna kick us out but she's asking what more do you need? what are you so afraid of? We have a firmer economy than her, she say's, you have your issues on Island, but that's just life as you wll always have issues, but Bermuda, in my opinion, is more ready than any country on earth has ever been to forge it's own path. It's just called afraid of the unknown I understand, but what we do know is that as a territory, we are well respected and admired for how we did what we did to be where we are today. There is MUCH more that Bermuda can do as an Independent Nation, weve already made it clear that the world should not judge us for our size.

[The Right Reverend Uncle Elvis on 31.05.06 at 23:25]

Those aren't reasons to go Independant, those are reasons that we won't go down the toilet if we do.
Those won't change if we do or don't.

So I ask again. Why should we go independant? Why rock the boat? Why change what has, up 'til now, been a pretty good thing?

Also, what do Foreigners have to do with the decision on what to do with OUR country? Or is that another code word for white?

[The Right Reverend Uncle Elvis on 31.05.06 at 23:26]

Wait... "it's time [sic] too"? THAT's a reason?

[Amin Swan on 31.05.06 at 23:29]

Adjustah - to answer your question, the list of reasons why are what you see daily, a well functioning society, stable, Flawlessly Beautiful (To me at least) run decently (up for argument of course) wealthy, a diverse educated populace, off the coast of the Worlds most powerful Nation who will not allow any body to bother us.

I want to be a Bermudian, I want my son to aspire to be the Govenor I want him to have a culture that belongs to him. I want him to learn to be able to stand amongst other World leaders and not expect someone else to speak for him. I mean c'mon it's 2006. There are 201 independent countries and 31 dependent territories large and small. You now let me know what what we are waiting for?

[Jamaican Q on 31.05.06 at 23:32]

Here is my view on the visa issue. I am a Jamaican and it seems that everyone wants us to have a visa to go anywhere....which is annoying to me because I consider myself to be a professional in my country, with 2 degrees and will soon be on to my third. I live a fairly good life here and can afford to do a lot of things that the average Jamaican may not be able to do, yet I am painted with the same brush like any old YARDIE. I have noticed that Guilden has indicated that attaining a visa is a painless process.....it depends on where you live hon! It may be a painless process for a Bahamian....but ask a Kittitian, Lucian, Bajan, Trini, Jamaican etc....they will tell you it is a pain in the azz....Bahamaians are like 30 minutes from the US Mainland...they can't afford to be put through any amount of pain! Even Bermuda wants us to have a visa to come there which i stupidly applied for once...and would never do it again because of the aggravation. Don't get me wrong....Bermuda is a lovely place...one of the most beautiful I have visited. But let me cut a long story short.....when your relationship changes with other countries...and it will when you become independent.......you will see it is no walk in the park....my point is....you may say you don't want a UK passport now and yadda yadda....but trust me....what you know as Bermuda now..will not be the same in the post-independence period....travel will change and the way you do business will change!

[Jamaican Q on 31.05.06 at 23:40]

Amin...what do you mean you (Bermudians)are the most educated populace in the world? Which world? This one?

Also....what do you mean you are the best governed country on the planet? Please tell me you have a Masters or a Doctorate in Political Science or related science and are speaking by using empirical data?

Nothing is wrong with you being patriotic...but I think you need a reality check before you speak with such absolutism about Bermuda and Bermudians......To be honest...I have never heard of any Bermudian making their mark on the world map in any capacity...ok..except Miss World 1977?

[The Right Reverend Uncle Elvis on 31.05.06 at 23:43]

Don't forget the guy who danced with the snake in that James Bond movie!

OOOH! And Michael Douglas' mom!

Annnnd.... um...

[Michael Taylor on 31.05.06 at 23:47]

Michael Douglas doesn't count?

[Jamaican Q on 31.05.06 at 23:48]

and UM who else Rev? Nobody I am sure. What I mean is that where I am from...our people are appointed in high places internationally...I am not talking about Beenie Man, Karlene the Dancehall Queen, Bounty and the likes of them....I am talking about people like Colin Powell, Asafa Powell, PJ Patterson, Bob Marley, Patricia Francis and I could go on.....

[Jamaican Q on 31.05.06 at 23:50]

Michael: No Michael Douglas doesn't count. Yes he is 1/2 Bermudian and trust me...the fact that he has a piece of paradise to own and escape to is more of a big deal for him than having Bermudian Heritage....

[Amin Swan on 31.05.06 at 23:51]

To be honest...I have never heard of any Bermudian making their mark on the world map in any capacity...ok..except Miss World 1977?

I wonder why??

And it was 1979 Miss World.

I trust that as a Bermudian (if you are) you have traveled. I will tell you first hand that yes - Bermudians (per capita) are very well educated. A recent survey in the US showed that 2/3 of their students did not know where Iraq nor did they know where New Orleans was.
Look I can't and probably won't convince you that Bermuda is ready for Independence, for the simple reason that life is too F*ckin good on the Island (I guess we should thank the UK for that huh?)
It'll be interesting to see if as a "dependent territory" we falter and stumble, do you really think that we could call on the UK for help? Ask Montseratt..A damm Volcano exploded and they had to literally beg for assistance......Gimmie a fuckin break!

[The Right Reverend Uncle Elvis on 31.05.06 at 23:54]

I was being facetious! I agree with you. Not to say that we don't have the potential for greatness, just that we haven't really done anything with it.

[Jamaican Q on 31.05.06 at 23:58]

Amin....If you are about to compare yourself to the education system in the US....then yes..you are well educated. Most Americans have never left their state muchless their country. This is why when the US Government proposed that they will need a passport to leave the country and return they are pissed...

No....I am not Bermudian but Jamaican Amin...but yes...I have travelled a lot around the world..Europe, Caribbean, North America etc. I have lived in 4 different countries in my lifetime (excluding Jamaica) and I am here to tell you that you cannot speak about Bermuda's education system with such absolutism. I am a social scientist...and unless you come up with a lot of empirical data...be careful of how confidently you speak...

Yes....you need to thank the fact that you are a "dependant" as Bermudians like to type...that yes....you need to thank your masters for your success. I don't know what the British Overseas Territories have it in their heads that they will be a haven for reinusrance, offshore banking etc.....even if they become independent. I beg to differ....Cayman thinks like Bermuda...you guys need to get with it.....those big companies will not stay....once you become independent their mainland will lure them back home...and you will be left with nothing.

[Amin Swan on 31.05.06 at 23:59]

The Uk has 3 responsabilities here
Defense
Internal Security
External Affairs

Oh and to "appoint" a Govenor who is "Commander in Chief" - in other words in charge! I don't ever want anyone on this site to blurt the word democracy, because we are far from it. A true democracy is an independent one, rich or poor, small or big.

And if Bermuda is not ready to take charge of those 3 responsibilities, then we have bigger issues than we think we have.

[Guilden M. Gilbert, Jr. on 31.05.06 at 23:59]

Jamaican Q,

"I have noticed that Guilden has indicated that attaining a visa is a painless process.....it depends on where you live hon! It may be a painless process for a Bahamian....but ask a Kittitian, Lucian, Bajan, Trini, Jamaican etc....they will tell you it is a pain in the azz...."

Sorry, I tend to try to only make statements about things or which I know. I do not know the visa situation in St. Kitts, St. Lucia, Barbados, Trinidad or Jamaica, therefore, I cannot comment.

[Jamaican Q on 01.06.06 at 00:01]

Rev: I knew you were being facetious (smile). You couldn't be serious! I have never heard of any famous Bermudian doing anything....Ok Miss World 1979? Some neurosurgeon at Howard University? (I may be wrong)....but seriously...there is nobody else from your island who you could truly say has made a mark....In fact when i came to Bermuda and heard about Johnny Barnes at the roundabout..I was looking for the FOOTBALLER!!

[Jamaican Q on 01.06.06 at 00:02]

No offence Guilden....but you said it was a painless process...and i was only begging to differ.....

[Adjustah on 01.06.06 at 00:05]

Amin,

While I agree that we CAN go Independent, I don't believe that this alone constitutes a reason TO seek Independence. I am a firm believer that there is nothing that a Bermudian cannot do if he/she puts their mind too it.

My point is that even a simple listing of pros and cons has failed to produce even one pro reason that is not an abstract such as "National Pride", whereas losing our Brit' passports is a definite, and specific con.

Again, we all know that we can become independent, but no one has yet told me why.

Looking forward to your comments.

[The Right Reverend Uncle Elvis on 01.06.06 at 00:08]

Funny... I seem to recall us turning down help when it was offered after the hurricane.
At least it was offered.

Just a Q... Because we're better educated than the states, that makes us "one of the most educated populace in the world"?
I, too, would like to see your sources on this.

"Look I can't and probably won't convince you that Bermuda is ready for Independence, for the simple reason that life is too F*ckin good on the Island (I guess we should thank the UK for that huh?)

I know I'm not saying, and I don't think many are (some are, yes, but not the majority), that bermuda isn't ready. I think we're pretty close to it. The problem I have is that, yes, life IS good here. Why do you want to risk changing that?

This is why we keep asking for reasons to go independant. There are none.

[The Right Reverend Uncle Elvis on 01.06.06 at 00:09]

SEAN GOATER! He's kinda famous.

[Amin Swan on 01.06.06 at 00:11]

Jamaica Q - I wasn't referring to you with regard to being Bermudian, and I am certainly not impressed with your titles. But as I mentioned earlier, 4 Countries, not large countries, that recently went Independent and are doing Well. Guilden pointed out in previous posts that the reasoning for Bermuda's success lies largely in the hands of the Policy makers here, not in London, it lies largely in the hands of the Bermudian populace...There isn't anyone who will sway me to believe (as they tried to do with the PLP being elected) that the sky will fall in if my Island went Independent......

[The Right Reverend Uncle Elvis on 01.06.06 at 00:12]

but, again, this is not a reason to do it.

[Jamaican Q on 01.06.06 at 00:12]

Rev....SEAN who? Never heard of him....except when i read the Bermuda newspapers Now when you talk about Courtney Walsh in cricket, Lennox Lewis in boxing, Asafa Powell (the fastest man in the world on the track).....and I could go one......

[Jamaican Q on 01.06.06 at 00:15]

Amin...which 4 small countries recently went independent and are doing VERY well? I wasn't trying to impress you with any titles...just trying to point out that when people make absolute statments they are invalid without the appropriate data....that is the problem with the world...people like to speak based on popular belief...not with empiricism...that's why the world is in so much turmoil!

I hope you don't say Singapore is one of those countries...

[Amin Swan on 01.06.06 at 00:15]

Rev - your making your own point the reason why there is little reason why we should go Independent is the same as why we are ready! You wonder why we can't agree.

Did I use the word WHY enough :)

[The Right Reverend Uncle Elvis on 01.06.06 at 00:16]

You're preaching to the choir, amigo!

[Guilden M. Gilbert, Jr. on 01.06.06 at 00:17]

Jamaican Q,

The Bahamas is a former territory and has a fairly large offshore bank and trust environment. Mutual fund services is a large growth area.

Barbados is still growing its offshore insurance sector. Actually, via Sagicor, formerly Barbados Mutal, I think Barbados has a fairly large hold on the Jamaican insurance industry, especially after acquiring Life of Jamaica a few years back.

I also have to agree with you about Jamaicans making a mark on the world stage, Marcus Garvey. When I was in university the Dean of Economics and my host parent, was a Jamaican, Dr. Rudolph Ffrench. One of the most reknown cardiologist in North America is a Jamaican.

So while some people turn their noses up at Jamaica it should be remembered that through it all it is not about monetary wealth. Jamaicans are a proud people and like any nationality the few can spoil the image of the many, Jamaican seem very keen to continue to make a mark on the world stage.

Jamaica's problems are unfortunate because the country is rich in culture, natural beauty and I think if properly managed it would be a place to be envied. But I don't want people to count Jamaica out there is some growth occurring within its economy.

I only wish Bermudians would open their eyes more and stop looking down their noses and judging people and countries using wealth as a determination of properity.

[Amin Swan on 01.06.06 at 00:20]

Jamaica Q - for the record I was speaking on facts, I did say a recent survey did I not? Short of sending you the link..I mean c'mon gimmie some credability.

And yes, I did mention Singapore - and I bet you wish that Jamaica had laws like Singapore -the nonsense that goes on down the won't be tolerated!

[Amin Swan on 01.06.06 at 00:21]

By the way - isn't it Bedtime in Bermuda?

I'm in Atlanta now so I have another hour to shoot the breeze!

[The Right Reverend Uncle Elvis on 01.06.06 at 00:22]

So we should go Independent because... we can?

Ohhhhh kay.

[Jamaican Q on 01.06.06 at 00:25]

Well said Guilden!! 3 cheers for you! Bermudians have this stereotype vision of Jamaica and Jamaicans. When I came to Bermuda I can see why. The majority of the Jamaicans you have there are in the service industry and are not highly skilled people...they exhibit particular type of behaviour which even I as a yardie abhor! On the other hand I recognise you have quite a few Jamaican professionals as well.

Wealth does not make a man I agree....but it helps (smile). If you know about economic growth happening here please tell me about it...I am here and don't see it. By the way...a lot of educated Jamaicans are relocating to the North...did you know that? It is the easiest thing for us! Canada is importing immigrants like crazy...once you are qualified....so you know where we are heading!

[Amin Swan on 01.06.06 at 00:25]

Guilden - again I agree, I have ooodles of respect for the Jamaican Culture, I mean those are some determined people who get noticed not just for bad, but for Great People and Great Potential. Props to Portia Simpson also, I mean her work is cut out but at the same time she's made history!

[Jamaican Q on 01.06.06 at 00:28]

Amin....as I had said in a previous post....do not compare Singapore to anywhere else on this earth. You need to read Lee Quan Yu's book before you speak! You say Jamaicans couldn't live under his policies....Bermudians are worst! They couldn't last a day under his policies. I noticed that you speak of the nonesense that goes on down here....what is that?

[Shark on 01.06.06 at 00:28]

It has never been in my mind that Bermuda will do badly as an independent country. Bermuda is a great nation and as a Bermudian I will continue to think that way. We can do well but as has been stated just because we can do something doesn’t mean we should do it.

Just saying now is the time to be independent or we can do it is not enough. Emotion patriotic pride while is good and is something I have, is hallow compared to concrete benefits.

To say you and people that you know don’t want to live in the UK or the EU (for whatever reasons you have) doesn’t mean other people won’t want to live/study/work there.

As it stands Bermuda I think will independent as the majority of the island (even if you don’t believe polls) doesn’t see the need for it (probably as a side from emotional pride there are no other concrete pros and many concrete cons).

Instead of the government trying to push independence fix any other problems Bermuda has first as if we went independent surely you would want to go working properly.

Also comparing Bermuda to the US in terms of education and other areas and saying we do better, how about comparing to the world as the world is a lot bigger then Bermuda, the USA, Canada and the Caribbean

[Shark on 01.06.06 at 00:30]

forgot the not before the will in the fourth paragraphe....cures speed typing.

[The Right Reverend Uncle Elvis on 01.06.06 at 00:31]

Ooh! We forgot Desmond Dekker, the Skatalites, the Heptones (a name I will love 'til the end of my days!), Jimmy Cliff and Toots and the Maytals!

[Amin Swan on 01.06.06 at 00:37]

Jamaica Q,

This from the Gleaner - mind you this is 2005 material and so far, 2006 has gotten off to a horrible start down there.

"WE ARE number one! It is now official. Jamaica is the murder capital of the world. Mark you, this is not the sort of honour I would die to achieve but fact is fact. It was over 1600 Murders in JA.(2005)

People killing preachers, slashing the throats of children - I mean I love JA but dammm..

As far as Singapore is concerned, it's simply a different culture, as Bermuda is compared to Jamaica. But Something is working well in both Bermuda and Singapore, maybe something that Jamaica can adopt?

[Jamaican Q on 01.06.06 at 00:41]

Amin...again i say to you....read Lee's book before you comment. Bermuda and Singapore are not the same. To begin with...the Asian belief in Confucionism made them people with high work ethics. Lee more or less tightened the belt in a way you nor i can ever relate to. Stop comparing the 2 countries!!

[Jamaican Q on 01.06.06 at 00:42]

Amin...I forgot to say...i don't deny that Jamaica has a high murder rate...but that could be Bermuda in a few years...when economic hardships face you...i post-independence.

[Amin Swan on 01.06.06 at 00:45]

Jamaica Q - i am not comparing more than I'm saying that there is a workable way to stability, be it the Bermudian way or the Singaporian way - the American way or the South African way..Poverty and Independence are not one word..

Amin..Poverty and Independence are synonymous for the most part...unless you are a core country (US, Canada UK, EU). I just realised that you said that Jamai