Open mike: Impediments to racial understanding?

Weaselguard writes:

“A few years back on CNN, on the dearly departed Aaron Brown show, Brown had some interesting guests. They were black leaders from various cities in the States. They were unknown to me. A major concern that they had was that the media and others gave all their air/print and funding to a very small section of black leadership - for instance Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton. It made for good, flamboyant copy, I suppose. Their point was that new people on the scene with new ideas were in a way shut out of the dialogue, at least on the national scene.

That happens here in Bermuda. Why the attention to Calvin Smith, Alvin Williams and Rolf Commissiong? Are they the way to the future and positive social change?”

Comments

[SmokingGun on 31.07.06 at 19:34]

Although I believe everyone's opinion should be heard but It is true that too often it is only one or two that get heard on a regular basis thus giving the impression that others do not have solid and worthwhile input to offer. (In fact I should offer my apologies to all for I am guilty of posting probably more than my fair share. But what the heck, I enjoy everyone's input and Limey's got some interesting takes on things.)

But I agree, there are many many Bermudians other than the three mentioned who we should be hearing a lot more from. Besides, what's up with Alvin and his constant bleating about whether any white people have anything in common with him. It's getting to the point where it sounds like he doesn't want to have anything in common with white people.

[Bundy & Coke on 31.07.06 at 20:31]

I'd love to hear some young, fresh voices on this topic - partly to get the youngsters thinking and talking about this issue before becoming too set in their ways.

[Viva La Revolution! on 31.07.06 at 22:30]

It's pretty simple. Blacks with much to lose are not going to challenge the status quo. What is the one thing that all three of these men, Laverne Furbert, etc. have in common? Little or no economic threat from white people. They are pretty much untouchable. Do you honestly think that anyone, especially a black person, working for international business or some conservative Bermudian employer is going to publicly take a pro Bermudian, pro independence or pro black empowerment stance? Yeah right! You best shut the fuck up, and go with the flow. Do that or play like the theatre boycotters and execute your revolution like a Russian Spy. Of course if you don't care about a roof over your head, feeding and educating your children, you could go right ahead (on your own that is).

Viva La Revolution!!!

[Just My Opinion on 31.07.06 at 22:37]

Why the attention to Calvin Smith, Alvin Williams and Rolf Commissiong?

BECAUSE JUST LIKE YOUR BLOG SITE THEY HAVE A RIGHT TO SPEAK OR MABYE FREEDOM TO SPEAK DONT NOT SIT WELL WITH YOU . I BELEIVE THAT CRUISE SHIP SMOKE FROM MONDAY TIL THURSDAY IS TAKING IT'S TOLL ON YOU
BUT THEN AGAIN " THATS MY OPINION"

[what the??? on 31.07.06 at 22:54]

First of all....Limey didnt write this piece...ITS AN OPEN MIKE PIECE...

second of all no one said they werent entitled to their opinions....just that maybe some new voices would be good for the debates and issues.

[observor on 31.07.06 at 22:54]

Just My Opinion - for starters you might want to re-read the comment: Weaselguard writes before commencing with your SHOUTING rant.

[Combat Banker on 01.08.06 at 00:37]

Fear...
Anger...
Agression...
To the Dark Side lead these!

What's with angry Caps Lock Post Dude these days? He's getting as bad as Tony Brannon.

[The Right Reverend Uncle Elvis on 01.08.06 at 01:47]

Wow... "How to miss the point 101"

Take notes.. there WILL be a test later.

[Lost in Flatts on 01.08.06 at 04:40]

Don't forget to add Eva Hodgson to the list, she seems to sometimes appear twice in a single letters to the editor section of the RG!

If the reason more young blacks aren't stepping forward is because they're afraid, then what can be done to stop this? Obviously they need not fear the government, so the fear must be from their employers, if this problem is really ingrained into the business world, what is the solution?

I will say, not wanting to dismiss fear as a reason, but that people whose lives are going relatively well (decent job in insurance, small house, nice car) tend also to be the types to not get involved in 'revolutoins'. Just human nature. Perhaps an alternate theory to the institutionalised, eager to persecute, racial conspiracy that is international business.

[Viva La Revolution! on 01.08.06 at 06:53]

Just ask yourself, what would Eva, Rolfe, Calvin or Larverne's chances of getting hired by your average white person be even if they were fully qualified? Would they be welcomed into the fold of corporate Bermuda? Or would they be trumped by any other qualified person who shared the pro-expat, pro-condo, pro-UK, anti-PLP and racially blind values that dominate these areas?

[Tiger Bay on 01.08.06 at 07:43]

Those who speak calmly and reasonably get listened to by the people. Those who shout and stamp their feet get listened to by the media.

[weaselguard on 01.08.06 at 08:38]

Yes, Smoking Gun. Everyone has the right of opinion. Thank you for the clarity.

I think F. Scott Fitzgerald wrote of "careless people." Sometimes that is how I see some commentators.

It has been suggested that the three mentioned, Smith,Williams and Commissiong haven't much to lose. Heck, they keep getting invited back for more.

Lost in Flatts, you suggested that people whose lives are going relatively well, tend not to get involved in revolutions.I think history would suggest otherwise. In England, during the struggle for a woman's right to vote, priveleged women were at the forefront of the charge.

Look at Bermuda. Does Sheilagh Cooper, of the Coalition for the Protection of Children have to work, or Anne Spencer Arscott of the Red Cross.

Bermuda is awash with volunteers. Some well off, some not so well off. Where would Bermuda be without them desperately trying to plug the holes.

So what of the role of the Press and media? Do they seek out new blood for the dialogue on race and civil rights in general. Or is the copy just hotter with those who make fairly incendiary, seemingly off the cuff comments, on a regular basis.

[Bill Cook on 01.08.06 at 08:51]

The media creates these so called social activists I think.

The main criticism I have with all of these people is that their viewpoint does not move with change which only the brain dead would not have recognised occuring.

They have an agenda which reflects their own often bitter viewoint which makes it very difficult to determine if they are sincerely trying to find solutions to our problems or seeking revenge.

They do not reflect in my opinion the majority opinion of people who look like them and even less of those who do not.

The one common thread that runs thru all is anger and emotion, which have their place but in the final analysis acheive nothing of value and often arouse hostility with those of opposing viewpoints.

Everyone, including all of them, have something of value to add in improving the quality of life in Bermuda, but most of these people seem driven by ego not idealism in my opinion and it dilutes their contribution.

Some I fear will end up being Legends in their own Minds rather than leaders in advancing our society.

[Lost in Flatts on 01.08.06 at 08:52]

My point isn't that the priveledged never partake in revolutionary activity, more that they're less likely to the further away from the suffering they are. Just trying to offer explanations.

As for the above people not having a great chance of getting a job for an ex-pat white employer, I don't disagree. However, I don't think it's quite as simple as the employer is a white racist. I'm struggling to find an analogy, but here goes. Imagine you manage a basketball team, and there's this great player, but his whole career at another team he's been accusing you of underhanded tactics, cheating in the transfer market and being corrupt. Wouldn't you be at least slightly wary if he suddenly asked for a trade? Not sure if that makes sense, but blame lies on both sides is my point.

[onevote on 01.08.06 at 09:42]

"In England, during the struggle for a woman's right to vote, priveleged women were at the forefront of the charge. Look at Bermuda. Does Sheilagh Cooper, of the Coalition for the Protection of Children have to work, or Anne Spencer Arscott of the Red Cross."
Posted by weaselguard on 01.08.06 at 08:38

Somewhere, sometime, someone I was reading posed the question "What is the role of elites in a society?" That question has stuck with me, unanswered, for a long time.

[Guilden M. Gilbert, Jr. on 01.08.06 at 09:50]

It makes me smile when I read that the reason more blacks do not speak out regarding race issues is because they are afraid of losing their jobs and the roofs over their heads.

That is not short of a total cop-out. What happened to freedom of expression? Or does freedom of expression only apply when you expression is freely in-line with your employer or your banker.

No one should ever be afraid to speak his mind, even if he is the only one that feels the way he does. How can we claim to have a democracy on one hand and yet on the other people are afraid to expression themselves for fear of losing their jobs?

I sit back and read how many criticise Dr. Brown for his plantation questions comment but none of you have really stepped back to understand why he made such a comment. Here it is under his watch tourism numbers have greatly improved, airlift options are greater than they have ever been, yet you still ask his the most ridiculous questions, questions that you would never have asked David Dodwell, spent government funds without doing a single thing to advance tourism.

I do not care whether you want to admit it or not but if Dr. Brown had been white or a UBP MP he would never have been questioned by any of you.

It makes me smile that when I posted regarding the comments made by Col. Burch I was your best friend and many were asking me about coming home to run for office. Yet as soon as I disagree with you on the other aspects of race affecting Bermuda there is an instant wall of denial put up.

If race is going to be tackled in Bermuda minds need to be opened to understand why people feel the way they do, feelings are going to get hurt. When this happens getting defensive and denying someone's expression and feelings will only stop the process short in its tracks.

I am certain there would be more blacks coming forward to discuss the topic of race if they knew they were not going to be shot down the first time they same something you disagree with. Some people ask, "What's the point in speaking up, nobody is listening anyway."

So instead of call people like Cal Smith, Ralf Commissiong, Alvin Williams, LaVerne Furbert, etc. trouble makers, listen to what they say and try to understand why they feel the way they do before you pass judgement. You might be surprised because you might actually learn something. You cannot learn with a closed mind.

[Bill Cook on 01.08.06 at 10:16]

Democracy did not shine when meetings to discuss the Long Term Residents were held.

The bitter attacks on these largely defenceless people, nurses, teachers, policemen, hotel workers, engineers etc residents for often over 30 to 40 years was morally reprehensible yet these so called Paragons of Virtue were S I L E N T as in said nothing.

Paula Cox did say something, she said " this is a great way for Bermudians to show their feelings " and here were we thinking it was to listen to both viewpoints in a rational and balanced manner.

I think the hypocrisy was pretty evident.

It clearly demonstrated that those who had the power drowned out the powerless.

I do not share the opinion that fewer blacks do not meet to discuss race relations because of fear of being shot down any more than whites do which is why so few attend such meetings in my opinion.

[The Right Reverend Uncle Elvis on 01.08.06 at 10:31]

And don't forget that Guilden Gilbert guy! *grin*

Guilden, no one is saying that their point isn't valid. More and more, I'm finding points that I agree with Dr. Hodgson. (Scary, I know. I'm not sure if I'M changing, SHE'S changing or if Bermuda's getting so fucked up that even her crazy stuff is making sense!)

What the question is is... why JUST them?

"No one should ever be afraid to speak his mind, even if he is the only one that feels the way he does"

Amen to that!

"I do not care whether you want to admit it or not but if Dr. Brown had been white or a UBP MP he would never have been questioned by any of you.

I disagree with you here. It's not that he's black that the questions are asked. Period. I know it makes sense to you that this would be the case, but it's simply not true. I think that we ALL look at the past through rose coloured glasses. Some look back and remember a good run for the UBP, with no problems and the best of times. However, some look back and DON'T remember people questioning the Government. They don't remember people protesting. They don't remember criticism.

It was there, Guilden. I assure you it was.

You bring up Mr. Dodwell. I personally watched Limey go off on him at the Democracy Rally. You would have loved it. Stung 'im and stung 'im good. Shoot me a line and I'll tell you the story. You'd have been grinning from ear to ear!

It makes me smile that when I posted regarding the comments made by Col. Burch I was your best friend and many were asking me about coming home to run for office. Yet as soon as I disagree with you on the other aspects of race affecting Bermuda there is an instant wall of denial put up.

Guilden, I think we know each other well enough for me to say this. I hope so.

For me, and I think for others, I only get frustrated with you when you get pigheaded. And you do. I hope you don't deny this.
Just as frustrated as you get with us when WE get pigheaded.

It IS a two way street. We're ALL a bunch of opinionated, dogmatic, reasonably well-educated folks with a desperate need to be right, even when we're not sure... even when we're wrong.

Thee and me included.

Mr. Smith, Mr. Commissiong and Mr. Williams included.
(I did laugh when you added LaVerne Furbert to the list and suggest that there might be something in what she says other that hateful venom. I've been looking, but I can't find it.)

So, to get back on topic, the question shouldn't be read as "Why them?" It should be read as "Why ONLY them?"

[sandgrownan on 01.08.06 at 11:12]

I call bullshit Guilden. Brown et al are questioned on their performance not because they are black. When are you going to get that into your head?

[loki on 01.08.06 at 11:40]

"So instead of call people like Cal Smith, Ralf Commissiong, Alvin Williams, LaVerne Furbert, etc. trouble makers, listen to what they say and try to understand why they feel the way they do before you pass judgement."

You had me, right up until you mentioned LaVerne Furbert in the same sentence as the others cited.....

[SmokingGun on 01.08.06 at 11:42]

Viva La Revolution! - for some reason I get the feeling you suggest people are, or should be, afraid of white people. No black person has a hope in hell of getting a job over a white person? Let's just say this: does the same apply for me should I look for a job at the Bank of Bermuda, Bank of Butterfield, Argus, BAS etc. etc.?

Guilden - Let me ask you this: Does the colour of one's skin determine whether one should get a free pass when it comes to accountability? When someone like Ewart Brown builds up a list of questions regarding ethical behaviour are the people of Bermuda simply mean't to let it all slide because "he" has decided he wants to compare his position in life with that of his ancestors? That we as a people should try to keep everything in perspective and accept that his actions are protected by something that happened in history? No my friend, the times have changed, today is the day of "collective empowerment". Out with the old and in with the new, not just the same old. Do you honestly think that it is only a white person who is interested in where he is coming from, and more importantly, where he is taking us to?

As our people mature and die off then I hope so will the old biased opinions and the faulty visions and that our new-borns learn about sharing and caring for one another.

The one thing that Bermuda needs for it to progress is for it's people to start acting as one. Finding the middle ground and avoiding the polarizing extremes. Bermuda has three roads. I've always tended to think of the middle one as usually being the highest.

[frank on 01.08.06 at 12:14]

GG: "I do not care whether you want to admit it or not but if Dr. Brown had been white or a UBP MP he would never have been questioned by any of you."

And there you have it ladies and gentlemen. "I don't care what you say, this is how you think and I'm telling you so. No, no. Don't try to tell me otherwise. I will not be swayed. I know you better than you know yourself." (How do you insert that sarcasm thingy?)

What a great example of the title of this thread, "impediments to racial understanding".

How comical to read only a few sentences away in the same post, this jewel: "If race is going to be tackled in Bermuda minds need to be opened to understand why people feel the way they do, feelings are going to get hurt. When this happens getting defensive and denying someone's expression and feelings will only stop the process short in its tracks."

[Alastair Macdonald on 01.08.06 at 12:42]

We all bitch and complain behind closed doors but in any society, not just Bermuda, most of us do not speak up. The major reason I think has nothing to do with job, mortgage or race, but mostly to do with the fear of making a fool of ourselves. This is particularly true in a small community such as Bermuda that has a long, long memory.

[Ali on 01.08.06 at 13:33]

I can't believe I am reading that black people won't speak up for fear of losing their job or house. If they were expat they may be afraid to lose their work permit but I sincerely doubt that anyone on this island cannot stand up and say what they feel. Weasleguaed makes a great point about contributions from the better off in our society. We have many scholarships available to anyone, funded by 'old Bermuda' or more recently exempt companies, who do you think spends huge money on $300 per head charity dinners? Who financed the Salvation Army shelter? There are countless people giving back time and money to benefit the less well off in our society and they have been doing so for a long time. It doesn't get mentioned enough.

[Ali on 01.08.06 at 14:48]

Guilden, you took a swipe at David Dodwell in your post but if you analyze tourism over the last few years remember it has taken 8 years for the current party to 'turn it around' if indeed that has happened. The hurricane played a major role in the upgrading of the hotel product ( nobody can take credit for that). Fairmont do all their own marketing. Low cost airlines are a new phenomenon which any tourism minister would pursue, Dr. Brown is in the right time for that one. The change in habits of many exempt company people means that a large part of our travel dollar is actually business not tourism related. not taking anything away from anybody but circumstances are different. I'll leave you to decide it the pop and sizzle, feel the love concept really makes a difference.

[selkieman on 01.08.06 at 15:32]

I’ve been trying to figure out what this thread was for since it went up. By and large, after the posts so far I’m none the wiser. They’re either miserable or even miserablist.

Maybe the clue lies in the gang of four that have been cited. There seems to be an underlying dislike of their right to speak, the platforms they speak from, but most of all, what they say and how they say it.

Now I know a lot of white people like to have their discussions under even whiter china teacups, but unfortunately the entire world isn’t like you. Time and time again, on here and elsewhere, when every a black person displays anger, or expresses ideas about race, which are forceful, or ‘challenging’, they’re vilified what for they say, or how they say it. Very rarely do you every see a white person acknowledge that anger, or take what’s being said seriously. White silence on many occasions is deafening. Why is that ? Why is it that any time a black commentator says something about race that doesn’t fit white politically correct criteria, the point is always decontextualised and used as a rod to beat them ?

Why is it, that every time a black person speaks, they’re suddenly spokepersons for their whole community ? Why can’t they be speaking for themselves ? Who’s accused of speaking for the ‘white’ race’? The problem here of course, it that most white people wouldn’t have a clue whether they were speaking for the majority black community or not, as they don’t know any black person well enough to ask. They are many other black voices besides the gang of four, but they’ve not been mentioned. Why ? Like Stuart Hayward they’ve got a style and a set of interests usually which don’t directly impact on the race thing. Or like Larry Burchall, they’re addressing black people about issues that affect them. Or they’re people working within the black community which most white people wont know anything about.

Why is it that the debate always has to be on white terms, and why is it that black people are only listened to when they play good poodle ?

I distrust both the subject and the intent of this thread deeply.

[sandgrownan on 01.08.06 at 15:51]

Selkie..it boils down to this. When dealing with the likes of Rolf, Calvin, Alvin, Laverne and to a lesser extent Eva, there is no place for rational debate or argument. In fact, any rational counter point are met with abuse, derision and outright abuse. Look at the hysteria from Rolf when it was pointed out that the BIC report contained many untruths.

The reaction from the white community is understandably defensive. The point being made, perhaps, wouldn't the black community be better served by speaker who can debate without the racial overtones and abuse that we coming from this group?

[selkieman on 01.08.06 at 16:20]

Well we'd all like our arguments to be smooth and teflon coated. We'd all like to listen safe behind rational fences. I'm sure that black people would have love to been afforded these safety nets during slavery and colonialism. Can't you see how one-sided yr being ? These are still living issues today.

What you call abuse, I might call passion. What you call rationality, I might call setting the terms of the debate. Why is it time and time again, that the real complaint I get from most black people, is that white people don't listen to them ? Because white people dont want to hear the hurt and damage that they're responsible for. I've heard it, and see it all the time, and most white people are completely and wilfully oblivous to what they're doing. White guilt and white supremacy will continue to do this until such time as white people really begin to face what a lot of black people say, including their 'spokepeople'.

As far as the G4's concerned, RC & AW are a bit on the hysterical side and I personally find them irritating. I wouldnt like to sit down for breakfast with Laverne, but Eva Hogdson's main problem it seems to me is that she's talking right over the heads of most people - black and white, and is willing to deal with issues have most of you cringing into yr dark'n'stormies.

But whatever, the idea that because you dont like messages you get the right to change the messengers, is not only futile, its stupid.

In terms of what black people have to say, they're only one set of voices, but they are an extremely important set.

[SmokingGun on 01.08.06 at 16:29]

selkieman - with all due respect - what do you expect from a people who have to get along on a scant piece of rock where if they all held hands could completely circle the country they live in?

[sandgrownan on 01.08.06 at 16:38]

I think you're wrong Selkie. I am not responsible for anything that happened in Bermuda in the past.

Educated folks of my generation are neither racist, sexist, homophobic or whatever, by and large. I'm happy to sit and discuss, but I won't have RC, AW, and CS tell me that I have a hidden agenda, or that I don't care, or that it's my fault. It's nothing to do with the message, unfortunately the message is lost behind the venom. My first reaction is to say, well fuck you and walk away.

I think black people should choose their "spokespeople" more wisely since thay are poorly served now.

[selkieman on 01.08.06 at 16:43]

SG - I'm not saying its easy. But even tho' it's one mixed-up fixed-up rock, I still still think that the values of openess, honesty, compassion and respect are going to be more useful than whinging, hypocrisy, partiality and of course silence, the greatest weapon of the lot.

This thread's supposed to be about impediments to racial understanding. People haven't been addressing that, they've been being that. (Your disinterested and avuncular self aside).

If I do have any expectation at all, it stems from AM's comments about Bermuda's culture. That culture of silence may have served the island well for the last 300 yrs, (and I think that's a moot point), but I see it as maladaptive in the extreme for today's world. And if people want what they say they want in terms of a free and equal Bermuda, then maybe a bit of change could go a long way.

[sandgrownan on 01.08.06 at 16:46]

Think of it this way Selkie. I'm surely the target audience. Young(ish), professional, white, no racial hang ups of any sort. I have invested in the future of Bermuda, I'm not Bermudian, but it is my home.

SO, if these guys are turning me off with their rhetoric, how do they help in any way to bridge the divide?

[ian on 01.08.06 at 16:49]

How many black people really feel historically wronged vs. how many black many people feel historically wronged because their elders and community leaders won't let the past rest? What has the white community done to the current generation (lets choose age 19-39)? Are they angry because they are discriminated against, segregated, denied opportunities? While I do not deny that racism exists - there are plenty of opportunities passed by due to a false sense of entitlement and sheer laziness than lost due to racial policies! A Palestinian child is not born to hate a Jew - he/she is taught by a parent and the community. First Nations peoples in Canada are not born blaming the white man for alcoholism and a lack of work. They are taught that this is their birthright - to forego the FREE tuition to major universities (something I, a "whitey" doesn't get) and complain in perpetuity. A false sense of entitlement pervades the black community in Bermuda. When I worked there I saw it daily. I felt like pointing out to my lazy, reverse-racist co-workers that Bermuda was first settled by...guess who....white people. Get over it already!

[ian on 01.08.06 at 16:57]

Sorry - came on little strong at the end there. I just get angry at a sense of entitlement (from any colour or creed)and the same old arguments. We need to put the past aside and look forward. That damn Rodney King was on the mark...Can't we all just get along?

[selkieman on 01.08.06 at 17:00]

SGM, I'm not asking you to take responsiblity for the past, I'm asking you to deal with the present that past has created.

I'd go as far as to agree with you to the extent that I think black speakers can play on white guilt, which I usually find reprensible, (or very funny). Or both..... I think there is a certain amount of political game playing going on, and on occasion, there are some very twisted sods on both sides. There's certainly a politics of victimhood from some. You may have a point that they can alienate white people.

So what ? Politics is a very broad theatre. And as Elvis says' we're all tarred with the same brush. I would have thought that if black people had serious problems with anyone of colour speaking out against their name they would do something about it. I see no evidence that they don't. Therefore you're left with the conclusion, whether you like it or not, that all of this group to some extent reflect black opinion in general, so why not deal with ?

And all of us would like to think we're beyond the 'ists', 'isms' and 'phobias', but you know... I don't think so. A lot of us may be trying, but we've all got a long way to go. All of us.

[SmokingGun on 01.08.06 at 17:01]

selkieman - so now it's come to name calling huh? ;-)

No it's not going to be easy. As they say, nothing worthwhile ever is.

[selkieman on 01.08.06 at 18:03]

terrible SG, to fall so low so fast, eh? I'm probable romanticising the implicate priaprism of yer moniker....(where's a blush icon when you need one ?) ;o)

Like you say anthing worthwhile's hardwork. I just think that I'd like to hear a lot more white people on here treating this subject in a worthwhile fashion, instead of jumping on the Whingeing White Bandwagon to trot out yet another set of ill-considered and dearly held prejudices.

Ok Laverne and the Mouthy Men might be a bit a much to deal with, but at least they say it like they see it... The white corollary is just downright sneaky and nasty. But like you say, there will be another generation along soon enough. Whatever's the case, they're no reason to throw the baby out with grannie.

A lot of white people talk about this stuff as though their hands are clean, They're not. Look at Ian's post, (sorry kid), - it's full-on confusion and contradiction, and typical of what you get on here. And as for the 'why cant we all just get along' - it's sheer hubris and cheap as chips.

What is so difficult in accepting that the impediments to racial understanding are a two-way street ?

I'm tempted to say it's just vested interest in keeping things as they are, but I often get the impression that it's something far more pernicious than that.

[weaselguard on 01.08.06 at 18:33]

Selkieman

Virtually no one has questioned a person's right of free expression, and yes, impediments to racial understanding and the cures are about all of us.

Almost no one would suggest that all blacks think alike, or all whites. I think its because we are all human.

Public discussion of important social issues, does at times lack in diversity. We need all kinds. Some help create change through marches in the street or boycotts. Some engage in quiet revolutions, where positive social happens under society's nose. All good. I think most Bermudians, the so-called silent majority, fall into the last category... but you know sometimes
we need to take it to the street to get somebody's attention.

Since the media is a part of this thread, I would like to give a plug to Shirley Dill of "Now Your're Talking" fame. Ms Dill has an eclectic mix calling into her show.

And she doesn't resort to name calling, nor injustified hangups on those she disagrees with,
nor does she belittle people. She listens well and asks pointed questions. Ms Dill appears an expert in appreciative inquiry. And don't tell Ms Dill she lacks passion, or teflon coats stuff.

Heck! Shirley Dill for Premier! Any one want to second that?

[selkieman on 01.08.06 at 18:55]

I could get picky about yr 1st line, but what the heck. Otherwise, I couldnt agree more, and the situation you describe is basically I think what you've got, which is no bad thing. What I'm saying is that there are those that dont like that.....

Apart from that, big up Ms Dill and Bermuda's silent majority. Who've certainly been very silent on here so far... Ain't that the strangest thing?

[loki on 01.08.06 at 19:31]

"Ok Laverne and the Mouthy Men might be a bit a much to deal with, but at least they say it like they see it..."

The only one I can't agree with you on is LaVerne. Seriously: I have never seen anyone in Bermuda blatantly and dishonestly race-bait as she does. Her racist diatribes against Phil and Christian Dunleavy alone, wherein she twisted their words in the most laughably dishonest fashion, set her well apart from the likes of Cal Smith and Rolfe.

[selkieman on 01.08.06 at 20:02]

ok loki, but where does that take us ? She's a bitch or a witch, and needs shunning or burning ? Like I said I wouldn't want her curdling my cornflakes. But what does any of that mean ?

She can say what she wants, as can you, but why is what she says used a brush to paint the rest of her community ? Even if she's sounding off about race in ways that are deeply negative, she's only one individual. The crux of this thread for many, is that voices like hers crowd out 'decent' debate by 'reasonable' black people. People like her alienate everyone with their words and attitude, so we shouldn't be listening to the pain and anger that inform them ? Why ? What's the problem ? You may not like it, but it exists. So why not deal with it and move on. Hell, even she might.

There are many intelligent aware black voices on the island. The premise of this thread is that they aren't heard because of the grandstanders and the histrionic. Which is a very convenient form of deafness. Innit ?

[SmokingGun on 01.08.06 at 20:40]

selkieman - there is one thing that gets me going when it comes to impediments. Forget about speech impediments some of the frustration is generated from simple thought impediments. I have to admit when Dr. Eva Hodgson decided to go on a rant about Limey's commentary on his blog and then totally dismantled her argument by declaring she hadn't even visited his web-site and was going purely on hear-say I was mystified as to how she could even put pen to paper and not wonder just what it was she was responding to. She's a smart lady but there has to be a time when people become acutely aware that their own personal filter is working properly or people will simply start to discount them.

If you are not prepared to do the homework and get the facts straight then don't expect to pass the test. That's what I've always been lead to believe.

[Wickering Banker :-) *----: on 01.08.06 at 20:54]

As a white guy, I have to admit that I have reached the stage where, if a black person cries racism, I am immediately suspicious.
Its awful yes - but hear me out.

Slavery & discrimination was bad yes - but when you cry racism at every point - it does not help anyone.

Ewart Browne refusing to answer key questions and branding them as "Plantation" does not help anyone - black, white , or yellow.

True racism is a terrible thing. But using it as an excuse for non performance or bad behavior is just as bad. It dilutes the true struggle for equality.

WB :-) *-------:

[Uncle Elvis on 01.08.06 at 21:55]

Here we go...

"I’ve been trying to figure out what this thread was for since it went up. By and large, after the posts so far I’m none the wiser. They’re either miserable or even miserablist."

As was said above - repeatedly - the point of this thread is the question: Why those four?

Why are these guys the ones that get the press? Why not someone like Guilden, or jake, who AREN'T obvious bigots, who DON'T cry race every time they're faced with something they disagree with or don't understand.

Maybe the clue lies in the gang of four that have been cited. There seems to be an underlying dislike of their right to speak, the platforms they speak from, but most of all, what they say and how they say it.

Bullshit. NO-ONE has said anything even remotely like this. Not even a HINT of repressing their right to speak.
Yes, there is dislike for what they say and how they say it, mainly because they don't help.
As you say, black people get frustrated when they aren't listened to. That is fine, but when you are trying to have a conversation with someone, you can't start it with, "Youuuuuu mother-fuckers are ALLL a bunch of asshole racists."
It is not conducive to debate. It's not conducive to communication and THAT is what is going to fix this problem, communication.

Now I know a lot of white people like to have their discussions under even whiter china teacups, but unfortunately the entire world isn’t like you.

Huh?

Time and time again, on here and elsewhere, when every a black person displays anger, or expresses ideas about race, which are forceful, or ‘challenging’, they’re vilified what for they say, or how they say it. Very rarely do you every see a white person acknowledge that anger, or take what’s being said seriously.

EXACTLY! It's how you say it. On the flip side, we react in the same way when a white guy comes out with some bullshit and says it in a way that I don't like.
When ideas are presented in a calm, non-threatening manner, they are listened to.
When someone jumps up in my face and calls me a racist because of the colour of my skin, knowing nothing about my upbringing or who I am as a person, then yeah, they can pucker up and kiss my narrow, pink, Half-Irish/Half-Anglo ass.
Like I said, I do the same thing when a white guy does it, too.

White silence on many occasions is deafening. Why is that ? Why is it that any time a black commentator says something about race that doesn’t fit white politically correct criteria, the point is always decontextualised and used as a rod to beat them ?

Because most of the time, it's racist, supremacist bullshit and they SHOULD be taken down for it.

Why is it, that every time a black person speaks, they’re suddenly spokepersons for their whole community? Why can’t they be speaking for themselves?

Who's accusing them of this?
The media (which is basically what this is about) has put them up as speakers giving a black point of view.
Why are you trying to vilify us for this?
The original poster, weaselguard (Hi, sweetie! Love to the family!), was asking "Where are the other voices? Why is it continually these four?"

Who’s accused of speaking for the ‘white’ race’?

Huh?

The problem here of course, it that most white people...

Ah, generalizations. How do I love them...

...wouldn’t have a clue whether they were speaking for the majority black community or not, as they don’t know any black person well enough to ask.

BWAH HA HA HAAAAAAAAA.
Damn, son, you REALLY don't know anything about Bermuda, do you? To accuse a Bermudian of not knowing a Black person well enough to ask questions is absolutely LUDICROUS.
Ridiculous, even.

They are many other black voices besides the gang of four, but they’ve not been mentioned.

WHERE? THIS IS THE POINT!
Where ARE these voices? Why aren't we hearing them? Why aren't they being pushed by the media like the "Gang of Four"?

Why ? Like Stuart Hayward they’ve got a style and a set of interests usually which don’t directly impact on the race thing. Or like Larry Burchall, they’re addressing black people about issues that affect them. Or they’re people working within the black community which most white people wont know anything about.

I love that phrase, "most white people".
To paraphrase Quint, from Jaws:
"We're gonna need a bigger brush"

Why is it that the debate always has to be on white terms, and why is it that black people are only listened to when they play good poodle ?

It's not white terms. There are rules of conversation. To start with an attack is bad form. I don't care WHERE you're from, what your background is, it's not acceptable.
It works the other way, too. When a white person starts with an attack, no matter how valid his points, they get discounted because of the tenor and tone of how he puts it.

I distrust both the subject and the intent of this thread deeply.

I thought you didn't understand this thread? It WAS you that wrote:
"I’ve been trying to figure out what this thread was for since it went up. By and large, after the posts so far I’m none the wiser." wasn't it? Oh, yeah. There it is, right up at the top.

Can you say disingenuous? I knew that you could.

[Guilden M. Gilbert, Jr. on 06.08.06 at 19:54]

There is something that I find to be consistent in any discussion of race on this site. Anytime a black person talks about race there is also the prefix "the likes of..." included.

Is this because any black person that broaches the topic of race is deemed to be a trouble-maker or is it that many on this site would rather the subject of race be put aside and that we all pretend that Bermuda does not have a race problem?

Many of you may not agree with Alvin, Calvin, Ralph or even LaVerne but the fact remains that there IS racial division in Bermuda and pretending that it doesn't exist will not make it go away. It has to be addressed.

You may not agree with what those named above are saying, or maybe its the way they say it but they are saying things that many in the black community feel. This is why there is such a void between blacks and whites in Bermuda and contrary to what many would have us believe this void was there long before the PLP came to power.

My personal view is that race needs to be addressed and EVERYONE needs to be willing to come forward an express there views on the subject. I think the views of the black community are fairly well known. While we may not speak for the black community, there is consistancy in what is said on the subject by Jake, Onion, Ken and myself. We have heard very littel of how the whites truly feel about the subject, what we get is defensiveness. What I and I believe many others would like to hear is how whites view the issue of race in Bermuda, not reacting to what blacks say on it or making it a PLP/UBP issue but simply what whites truly feel.

Does racism exist? If so, in what areas in particular? If not, is what we see happening more about perception? If so, how would you address these perceptions.

I just think we need to stop pointing fingers and simply address the issue. Some have called for forum similar that which was held in South Africa. Maybe we can start such a process right here on LiB.

So who would like to start by expressing their views on race as it relates to Bermuda?

[The Right Reverend Uncle Elvis on 06.08.06 at 21:14]

Just a quick point, as I'm watching a movie...

"My personal view is that race needs to be addressed and EVERYONE needs to be willing to come forward an express there views on the subject"

That's the point of this thread, DubbleGee.

Everyone SHOULD be willing to come forward and more people SHOULD be heard. The question is, and it says so in the original post:

"Why the attention to Calvin Smith, Alvin Williams and Rolf Commissiong?"

Why not attention on others who are saying things and expressing themselves? Why is it that, time and again, these are the voices we're hearing?

And I, personally, think it's a valid question.

[Martin on 06.08.06 at 21:33]

Guilden...

Racism does exist - as we all know. Many whites remain 'racist' and I suspect it will take a generation to pass before 'some' of that disappears. The same can be said of black people also.

As to areas...it's strange in some ways. I have a member of my family who works with a number of black guys everyday of the week. They are colleagues and friends. They support each other in times of difficulty, and they care when one of their group gets into difficulty.

BUT...ask him what he thinks about his son marrying a black girl...and the balloon goes up. Maybe the same applies to many black families?

Ironically perhaps, he cannot explain 'why' he feels the way he does...but it is there as plain as day...and it will not change until he passes.

In the working environmant...whether here or indeed the UK, racism exists. By the way, so do other forms of discrimination...class, religion and one of the worst of all - age discrimination. I am somewhat older than you...and believe me, that hurts.

Oh yes - a story. I arrived at the traffic lights at Court St the other day - first in the queue so to speak. On the other side of the lights was a black girl. When the lights changed, she shot across "in front" of me at a rapid rate of knots, instead of going behind me as one should. As she did so...she gave me a middle finger salute...A nice way to start the day. Guess it was meant to mean "in your place white boy".

It makes it difficult sometimes to try and go forward. I tend to hold onto the black friends I have, build on that relationship...and then take each new black person I meet with an open mind...but with an awareness I might have met another Court St driver.

Many of us Whites discriminate...and...believe it or not...we often do it subconciously, although I cannot explain why.

Many of us do not see colour...beit black, white, yellow or green. We just see people...until that is someone like the girl I just mentioned upsets the mindset.

[stuart J Hayward on 07.08.06 at 06:35]

Martin writes:
Guess it was meant to mean "in your place white boy"

"It" could have meant many things. However, it's possible that your interpretation reflects more what was in YOUR mind than in hers. What do you think...?

[Martin on 07.08.06 at 07:35]

I find that some black girls can be very aggressive...much more so than male blacks.

Yes...I know that white girls can be too, but the incidence is much greater with black girls.

Re: the incident, there was no need for what happened. It's not something I would do, and that's my marker on this ocassion for what is right.

She didn't know me...I did nothing to upset/offend/annoy/disturb/worry...her.

I can only conclude - rightly or wrongly - that it was my colour.

[Bill Cook on 07.08.06 at 08:38]

ANYTHING is possible but to be sure one would have to ask HER I would imagine.

Do people act differently driving ? it seems so as the behaviour of female drivers is or seems to be less courteous than males in my experience.

There is no doubt that some black females can be aggressive even rude but most are not esp those who you interact with and get to know you somewhat at least that is my experience.

If you look like you just arrived it seems there is some resentment due to the large inflow of foreigners which can be intimidating even to people like me who have lived here most of their long lives.

But sometimes one can get the perception that there is this ATTITUDE esp at TCB but talk to your friends of any colour and they will tell you they get the same treatment actually not to say that if someone in authority who knows you will not give a bit more attention regardless of either your or their colour so in the final analysis we have to live with this.

Not to say that someone should be discouraged from speaking their mind and giving their opinions by apologists of bad behaviour.

[Martin on 07.08.06 at 09:47]

Bill...

You know - I am confused in that I really do not know what some Bermudians want.

They don't want expats...because it is alleged they are the cause of high rents.

They don't want expats, but without them, the economy would not function as there are insufficient Bermudians qualified to do the work...and worse still...there appears to be only limited progress towards changing that.

They don't want expats to have cars, because they are the cause of accidents and crowded roads.

I know what it's like to be frustrated at what happens around you. Frustration is not the given right of Bermudians, we all suffer it.

I have another family relative who gave me the "you have my job" speech when I first came here. Strange really given I didn't have a job. In my naivety, I tried to discuss it with her.

Sheesh...never again. Sufficient to say logic did not prevail, only emotions.

Maybe it is difficult to see the benefits of 'where' one is, because one lives here? Maybe a spell somewhere else would be a good thing.

[Bill Cook on 07.08.06 at 10:26]

Sometimes Martin those with overseas experience are more understanding but sometimes the very reverse happens and they are full of anger and resentment perhaps because they could not make it and had to return home.

I fully recall leaving my home all my friends and coming to Bermuda where I knew no one and the awful feeling lonliness and apprhension starting a new life but its hard to convey to another so I never tried, of course NO ONE wanted MY job so at least I did not have that to contend with.

It behoves all of us to at least try to be as understanding as possible and be a little kinder to each other.

[stuart J Hayward on 07.08.06 at 11:20]

Martin writes:
You know - I am confused in that I really do not know what some Bermudians want.

Take heart, Martin, many of us locals also don’t know and are likewise confused

They don't want expats...because it is alleged they are the cause of high rents.

I’m not sure it’s expats per se we don’t want, but rather not so many of them. Switzerland put a ceiling on expat workers when the proportion reached 18% (as I recall) of the total workforce. Bermuda’s expat workforce is at 28% (33% by some calculations). It’s not abnormal for there to be some resentment.

They don't want expats, but without them, the economy would not function as there are insufficient Bermudians qualified to do the work...and worse still...there appears to be only limited progress towards changing that.

I think it would be more correct to say, “without them the economy would not function as robustly.” There lies a core problem in that we are being hit by the law of diminishing returns. In terms of quality of life (as opposed to “quantity…”) our rapidly expanding economy is working against us. Still, it’s not fair to take it out on individual expats (although there are a few who truly need to be taken out…).

They don't want expats to have cars, because they are the cause of accidents and crowded roads.

Well, yes! The ideal would be for our imported workers to do the most work with the least impact on the infrastructure. Unfortunately, the nature of some of the work means we import some workers who leave a large infrastructural footprint.

I know what it's like to be frustrated at what happens around you. Frustration is not the given right of Bermudians, we all suffer it.

Right. We could all improve the way we cope with frustration, and other emotions.

Maybe it is difficult to see the benefits of 'where' one is, because one lives here? Maybe a spell somewhere else would be a good thing.

I agree. It helps to remember that this is one advantage every expat has intrinsically.

[SmokingGun on 07.08.06 at 11:34]

Welcome back Stuart. Glad to hear you are heavily involved in the sustainabilty round-table. Good to have an "independent" voice included.

"You know - I am confused in that I really do not know what some Bermudians want." - Martin

It's quite simple Martin. The word is "more". One could offer them a bottomless cup of water and they'll still want a second cup.

[onevote on 07.08.06 at 14:50]

"Switzerland put a ceiling on expat workers when the proportion reached 18% (as I recall) of the total workforce. Bermuda’s expat workforce is at 28% (33% by some calculations)."

I was watching a BBC special a while back that said that Dubai's workforce is 90% expatriate. The quote from the immigration department was something like "we want these foreign workers to come here to generate more jobs for Dubayans". I was, to say the least, taken aback given the my exposure to the usual negative Bermuda attitude to expats.

I managed to find a short article on Dubai's workforce here

[silencedogood on 07.08.06 at 15:07]

Great article onevote. Thanks. I almost misread Dubayans as Dubya-ans. ;)

[stuart J Hayward on 07.08.06 at 17:58]

An excerpt from the article on Dubai re: democracy, immigrant involvement in politics, immigrant length of stay in the country, and immigrant ownership of property.

But the one record it does not advertise is ultimately the most significant: an immigrant population which, proportionate to the natives, is the highest in the world. In the UAE as a whole, with a total population of 2.5m, nationals are outnumbered seven to one by mainly non-Arab aliens: 1.2m Indians, 600,000 Pakistanis, 100,000 Iranians and contributions from dozens of other nations, including 50,000 Britons. In Dubai, nationals fall to a mere 8% out of a million-plus.

These nationals firmly control executive and administration, but only by allocating a huge proportion of their manpower to the task. By contrast, they account for just 1% or 2% of the private sector. Indians dominate here. At the upper level, they effectively own and run half the businesses; lower down the scale, they furnish the bulk of skilled and manual labour. They are the most easily available and affordable. Also, they - and other non-Arabs - are less likely to be politicised than Arabs would be. Politics are strictly forbidden to immigrants.

Not that they agitate for them. True, there is latent resentment. "We do well here," said an Indian vegetable wholesaler, "but it’s galling that I cannot even own a house". But, like everyone else, he seems resigned to the fundamental, implicit compact between native and immigrant on which the whole edifice rests: a global city, yes, but definitely not a melting-pot, more a new polyglot polity in the making.

All who come here come just for one thing: work. They are supposed to leave when they finish. They can bring their families if they earn more than $1,000 a month. Some have been here a long time and grown very rich. More and more are born here. But except by the ruler’s rare, special dispensation they cannot acquire citizenship. Even the most successful do not wholly own the businesses they have built up. They have to cede 51% of the business to a national sponsor, though, so long as all goes well, he is just a sleeping partner who takes an annual fee for his cooperation.

There is precious little politics for nationals either. The Maktums run their city-state in patriarchal style. It is benign enough: there are no political prisoners. But neither is there democracy, elections, political parties. Under the constitution, oil revenues go to the ruler. No budget is ever published.

I hardly think Dubai can be used as a model when considering how large a foreign workforce Bermuda could reasonably absorb.

[stuart J Hayward on 07.08.06 at 18:00]

Thanks for the welcome, SG.

[weaselguard on 10.08.06 at 04:44]

Yesterday on CNN, I was watching Ned Lamont who won the Democratic Primary in Connecticut (sp?). I think it was his acceptance speech. And who were standing prominently behind him, to either side?
Yep, Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton.

[weaselguard on 10.08.06 at 05:42]

Do I believe that all voices should be heard, YES, YES and YES.

It is vital to hear them all, racist or not.If racist, at least the poison is out in the open. But those who truck in such hateful spewing, must also accept that there might be those who may publically disagree.

However,Oscar Wild said that the only thing worse than being talked about, is not being talked about. I think some of Bermuda's commentators are eager to offend so they receive attention.

I also would suggest that their activities are less about the cause and more about a lifestyle.

And that lifestyle must be maintained.

Over the years I have noticed that the white community has been criticized for not integrating black institutions. Talk radio mostly had black callers. In recent years that has changed. But as soon as this occurred, some
callers questioned why whites were now calling, what was their underlying motivation, ie. what's in it for them.

I recall a few years back that whites, if they felt strongly enough about an issue, were told that they should march. Well they have marched, and now some voices have asked why now, what's the underlying motivation?

Some voices have said that whites lack passion and imagination. But when they speak out, they are lambasted for not appreciating history.

If whites express concern for the environment, they are told, this by Calvin Smith, that they care more about baby blue birds than human beings.

If whites attend forums on race, there's always someone in the audience who bemoans that their aren't more whites who care, even if the proportion of whites reflects the ratio of black/white in Bermuda.

We are told that only whites can be racist because of economic power. I think this is not a healthy definer.

I am not saying that Bermuda can only move forward if we had a Mandela, or a Malcalm X (post conversion) or a Ghandi or a Jesus Christ but must we (with some guilty pleasure) only concentrate on voices of division?