Demonstration of unsuitability

Any employee who walks off the job in a fit of pique at not being promoted to a senior position has probably just demonstrated one of the reasons they didn’t get the job.

Comments

[SmokingGun on 15.08.06 at 18:39]

You got that too huh? Limey - welcome to Bermuda! Where the Union rules the waves and waives the rules.

[loki on 15.08.06 at 19:19]

Absolutely, Phil

And, as I wrote in another thread earlier today, it just goes to show the typical hypocrisy and irresponsibility of far too many of Bermuda's unionized workers. The workers and union would be up in arms if the Fairmont Southampton had committed a breach of the relevant Collective Bargaining Agreement, and yet they think nothing of taking illegal industrial action, rather than following due procedure, when it suits them. The Assistant Manager in question has, indeed, demonstrated that she has neither the aptitude or responsibility for a managerial position.

[ken on 15.08.06 at 19:34]

I beg to differ.
In this situation, Mrs Forde and her staff walked off to demonstrate that the decisions made against her were unacceptable. She referred the hotel guests to the front desk, and she did not leave for the day. She and her staff returned to work. Had Mrs Forde just continued working as though nothing was wrong, then it would have been assumed that there was no issue.

I am definitely not one that is a supporter of wildcat strikes and illegal strikes etc, however I am also not a supporter of unethical and biased treatment in favor of foreign workers when there is a Bermudian qualified for the position. For Mrs Forde to be given the responsibilities that she has been given thus far there must have been some qualities present in her character and her performance. At the very least, she could be trained to perform the job. The GM of the hotel said that the chosen person had more qualifications such as knowing how to do reports and budgeting. Give me a break. Those are not qualifications but moreso job responsibilities that training could be given for and guidance given. There are too many instances that foreigners with similar qualifications are deemed to be above and beyond those Bermudians that have applied. There comes a time when Bermudians have to take a stand and demand equality in this regard.

Yes I am sure there was disruption as a result of Mrs Forde and her staff's temporary leave from work, however, management in these particular instances, and perhaps some of you all need to realize as well, that unethical behavior in the part of the management should not be tolerated either!

[SmokingGun on 15.08.06 at 19:51]

"Had Mrs Forde just continued working as though nothing was wrong, then it would have been assumed that there was no issue."

ken - with all due respect but what's the point of having policies and avenues to follow if they are just to be ignored. IE: Immigration. IE: The Bermuda Industrial Union.

She and the whole "Bermudian" crew showed a lack of respect to the system that is in place to protect all Bermudians. They embarrassed another Bermudian, namely the manager in charge of making the decision and also the hotel. Sometimes if you want to have a position of leadership you need to show you are willing to play by the rules first. And if that doesn't work then hire a lawyer.

[loki on 15.08.06 at 20:09]

Ken,

She wants to be department manager, and yet she lacks the basic ethics and restraint to be expected of a manager who, after all, would be expected to manage her team in a disciplined manner. She showed that she is unsuitable for the job, period.

[loki on 15.08.06 at 20:13]

Also, ken. In case you hadn't noticed, Ms. Forde had been given an undertaking that she would be trained by the incoming manager to take over that position. The Fairmont also gave the same undertaking to the Department of Immigration and, indeed, this was an express condition of the work permit issued. Apparently, this was not good enough for Ms. Forde, so she stormed off the job. How pathetic and, unfortunately, how typical of so many of my fellow Bermudians, so many of whom have a wholly unearned sense of entitlement. There's no way that I'd even train her for the job now - I'd train one of the other staff members. Hoist by her own petard, methinks.....

[jsm on 15.08.06 at 20:14]

Hey Bermerica...it's always somebody elses fault, isn't it?

[RedOnion on 15.08.06 at 20:16]

ken stated:- "For Mrs Forde to be given the responsibilities that she has been given thus far there must have been some qualities present in her character and her performance. At the very least, she could be trained to perform the job."

Here we have a local and a foreignor vying for the same job. ken, by your statement the foriegnor is more qualified for the job so how can you then say " There are too many instances that foreigners with similar qualifications are deemed to be above and beyond those Bermudians that have applied. There comes a time when Bermudians have to take a stand and demand equality in this regard."

You can't have it both ways.

[SmokingGun on 15.08.06 at 20:37]

"You can't have it both ways."

RedOnion - are you kidding? That's what Bermuda's been hearing from the top down for days now. How else do you think they are going to convince the naive that independence is the answer. It sounds to me from this case that some have drunk from the poisoned well already.

[Martin on 15.08.06 at 20:44]

I find it interesting, that it was a Bermudian that rejected her for the position.

Maybe he knows that (in practice) she just couldn't hack it, yet as always was stuck with measurables like "experience"..."service" etc as the determing factors.

It's like interviewing for shop clerks. The resume says...3 yrs with ABC Ltd....2 yrs with DEF Ltd etc. On paper - they make the grade....but if they don't serve people...or do so with a growl...then who needs them.

If she couldn't hack it (in his opinion) good for him.

Common sense = 1
Procedural Nicities = 0

[ian on 15.08.06 at 20:50]

I've worked in the Bermuda Hotel industry and hav seen firsthand the quality (or lack thereof) of local workers. They walked out at my hotel when a colleague was fired for stealing! My "supervisor" told staff in advance when she was going to call in "sick" - and thought this was the responsible thing to do (to notify us that we'd be shortstaffed because she was at the beach). The few foreign staff (including myself) worked circles around our so-called peers and managers, and yet they bitched about us "stealing" their jobs! I have no doubt that Fairmont wanted someone in the key position to set an example for this woman and others to hopefully emulate. However, rather than accept training from superior staff (and yes, Canadians and Europeans provide better service - it is an industry accepted fact), she walked off. Typical culture of entitlement in action!

[Amin Swan on 15.08.06 at 22:04]

Hold on with this Bermudian Bashing,

I have also worked in the hotel industry - for 14 years, and worked my ass off (And I am Bermudian). I have seen many qualified Bermudians turned down for position they are well qualified for. I was one of them 5 years ago and know recently a collegue of mine went through the same thing. This collegue was a Senior Manager at the old Marriott, with extensive experience overseas and in Bermuda, I mean as sharp as a tack. He was overlooked for a position and ended up having to take his grievience to the Minister. This has been going on and does still go on.
Furthermore - Id like to ask the Manager how many times has he been overlooked for the top post at South P. and has just kept quiet as to not jepordize his job.

[silencedogood on 15.08.06 at 22:22]

I thought this topic might show up when I read the article in the gazette...

It's pretty simple. A company has to be able to run its business relatively free from interference by the government. The department of immigration is there to ensure compliance with the law that prefers bermudians but those laws shouldn't put an unqualified bermudian in a higher position than they can perform.

Its not as though the department of immigration is toothless or never exercises their authority--they do, and often in a heavy handed manner which contributes to the sense of entitlement.

Even if Immigration were a lot of pushovers it is in any employer's interest to hire and retain bermudians who do a good job. It's a far better investment if you can find a good employee.

Methinks this is just sour grapes.

If she was really management material she would learn from the setback, absorb as much knowledge as possible during the term of the expat's permit and reapply at the renewal date, assuming they want to renew (it's not as though everyone wants to live forever in BDA). She would be in a much better position to press her case at that time.

Hurt feelings are no reason to strike.

[Kate on 15.08.06 at 22:52]

Staff that take action of this sort should be fired without notice. By her own actions she has shown why she is not fit for any job.

[Jamaican Q on 15.08.06 at 23:06]

One problem I have always had with unions and common workers is this....and this ALL OVER THE WORLD.....what makes them think that they are in a position to determine who is qualified and who is not qualified for a post? Better yet....how can someone determine that they are more qualified than someone else and possess all the attributes required for a job?

[Jamaican Q on 15.08.06 at 23:09]

Kate...I couldn't agree with you more....I didn't realise that stomping one's feet and carrying on demonstrates suitabilty for a position....she sounds like she could never handle the job well...imagine behaving like that because she was not considered for a post...what would happen if she got mad at a worker...and anyway...i thought Bermudians loved ex-pats in their country....When i look at some top mosts in Bermuda....most are not held by Bermudians...so why is Miss Forde surprised??

[Jamaican Q on 15.08.06 at 23:51]

After reading all of the above comments I want to add this....Bermuda (and other BOTs) usually have to import people to come in and work mostly because A)The natives are never usually up to scratch and B) It's cheaper to bring in say..someone from Jamaica, Barbados etc than it is to employ a local (if they are even qualified). What has always amazed me about Bermudian Immigration is the hard time they give to foreigners when they damn well know that the locals can't do the job! I know I will get a lot of flack for my comments...but it's the God truth! Bermuda (and the other BOTs) act like they are sitting on some gold mine....but I have news for all of them....with the way the global labour market is going....and the fact that most of the natives of the BOTs are not really interested in self-advancement because they feel that IB will be on their rock forever....The day is coming where places like the Cayman Islands shall return to what it was in the first place...a fishing village...i suspect Turks and Caicos, Bermuda etc will follow suit.

[Lost in Flatts on 16.08.06 at 07:21]

Everyone will agree that some Bermudians work extremely hard, and are also very good at their jobs. You know what? Life isn't always fair. You think every hard working American in the US gets the promotion they're looking for? Please. The only difference is that in Bermuda you can cite all kinds of reasons as excuses, and then whine and moan, then get politicans involved, then the union, then at the end of all that, you still expect your employer to welcome you back with open arms.

If someone else is chosen as a better candidate to do the job, by management, the people I'm pretty sure are most qualified to rule on the specific case, then shouldn't we applaud them for choosing the person that will best improve our tourism industry?

[PREFER THE VICTIM on 16.08.06 at 10:28]

All

Debbie Ford is claiming that she was discriminated against because of her nationality (namely, Bermudian). If so, the Fairmont Southampton Princess is in clear violation of the Human Rights Act 1981.

The facts of the situation are unclear to me. Like all of you, my analysis of the situation has been fed by only the news media. In those media reports, there has been no mention of the Foreigner's qualifications. Therefore, like you all, I do not know if the Foreigner was more qualified than Debbie Ford.

But the following is what I do know. I know that the Hotel industry has been particularly aggressive -- for whatever reason -- in the hiring of non-Bermudians. I also know that Bermudians in the hotel industry (and others) have been complaining about this practice for some time.

So we have a labour dispute between Bermudians employees of the hotel industry and the hotel industry itself.

A hotel is not an 'essential service', and therefore a strike, in pursuance of a labour dispute, does not require the strikers to give 21 days notice to anybody.

Strikes and industrial action -- in any form -- have been recognised as a necessary tool in the employees' armament to influence and maintain proper working conditions and employer behaviour.

Ironically, you all have made sweeping statements. You have suggested that because Debbie Ford and her staff have utilised the tools in their armament, it demonstrates their lack of suitability for a senior post. This is disjointed logic.

If I am correct that Debbie Ford and her staff utilised their legal entitlement to strike, then doubts must be raised about the reasonableness of her suspension (even if with pay).

Some say that Bermudians have a false sense of entitlement. That's defamatory. I urge you to be fair in your analysis of the Bermudian employment conditions.

You can only make an accurate decision with evidence. At present, you do not have that evidence. You know nothing of the background, yet you all have taken sides in favour of the non-Bermudian. The psychology which makes you do that will come under attack in near times; because it is improper and extremely partisan.

I will comment no more in this thread.

[hotspur on 16.08.06 at 10:37]

Ken, if any manager has an equally qualified (qualifications aren’t just credentials remember) Bermudian and non_Bermudian to consider you’re always going to give to the Bermudian the nod as it’s a much safer bet for the company long term. Well qualified Bermudians with the right attitude are a massively valuable asset, period.

The suggestion that managers are promoting non-Bermudians for any other reason should be logged in the conspiracy theories section.

[The Right Reverend Uncle Elvis on 16.08.06 at 10:38]

But I thought it was ok to generalize and make sweeping statements... Bermudians are lazy, we all know that. Bermudians don't want to work hard to get a job. Bermudians have a false sense of entitlement.
Or is it just when it works in your favour?

NOW do you see why I call people on it EVERY time?

Also, WAS it her legal right to strike? I thought, and I could be wrong, that LEGALLY you have to give notice before a strike. I thought that just walking off the job without telling anyone was NOT a legal strike and, therefore, not her legal right.

Anyone know better? IS it ok to just walk off the job with no notice, like in this instance?

[Jamaican Q on 16.08.06 at 10:46]

Uncle Elvis...i could kiss your feet for that statement about Bermudians being lazy...glad you said it and not me (a non-Bermudian). Recently I saw a job being advertised with a particular telecommunications company in Bermuda. I called a senior person in the company locally here and jokingly asked if they thought I should apply for the job....The response I got was that Bermudians AND Caymanians are the laziest people they had come across in their history of working. To make matters worst...it was for something like an account executive (which I have over 20 years experience in), and I figured that just about anyone could manage that....but I gather that good work ethics and the overextension of the self is lacking in all of the BOTs, which is why this company runs into high staff turnover.....

Back to that incident...based on the report in the media....the woman was highly out of order to behave in that way just because she didn't get the job....imagine working under somone who behaves like that!

[jsm on 16.08.06 at 10:46]

"A hotel is not an 'essential service', and therefore a strike, in pursuance of a labour dispute, does not require the strikers to give 21 days notice to anybody."

Yet busses and ferries are en essential service, and they often strike with absolutely no notice given....do you call them on that as well?

[The Right Reverend Uncle Elvis on 16.08.06 at 10:53]

First off, JQ, you don' wanna do that. It's been humid here and the dogs are barkin'! *grin*
Second, I just found it odd that someone who I got into a lengthy and heated discussion with about generalizing was denouncing everyone on the thread for generalizing and using broad strokes.
I don't think that Bermudians, in general are lazy, but there are a few bad apples that spoil the bunch, y'know?

[PREFER THE VICTIM on 16.08.06 at 10:56]

JSM

I said I wouldn't respond, but I just have to.

If you read my above post you would see I haven't taken a side. I've simply put the dispute in perspective.

As far as the bus and ferry strikes, I do call them on that. I think their wildcat strikes are unlawful and improper. Reason being, "public transport" is an essential service.

You only have to give 21 days notice when you wish to strike from an 'essential service'.

If you want to look for yourself, see the Labour Relations Act 1975, s. 1 and Schedule 1 (Essential Services).

If you want to research more fully about Debbie Ford's suspension see the Employment Act 2000, s. 24.

If you want to research more fully about her discrimination claims see the Human Rights Act 1981.

Uncle Elvis...I'm going to give you a pass today. We do not agree. And I know why we don't. We can save that argument for another time.

[loki on 16.08.06 at 10:57]

Ms. Ford how no legal right to walk off the job. There is a collective bargaining agreement in place that provides for clear procedures in situations of dispute. Rather than adhere to that procedure, she demonstrated her unsuitability for a management position. End of story. She's damn lucky to have gotten away with a paid suspension.

[jsm on 16.08.06 at 10:59]

"If you read my above post you would see I haven't taken a side."

Your nickname is "prefer the victim"...yeah, no bias there !

"You only have to give 21 days notice when you wish to strike from an 'essential service'."

Then why don't they? Are they above the law?

"I said I wouldn't respond, but I just have to."

It's good of you to attempt to correct your post.

[SmokingGun on 16.08.06 at 11:02]

What she did was immature and just plain dumb. First off she should have followed the proper procedures. Second she should have advised her manager that she had lodged a complaint with the proper authorities. Third she should just gone about her business as normal until her case was heard and shown she was willing and able to take the high road.

By the way - I wonder who it was that called the media to let them know there was a walk-out?

[PREFER THE VICTIM on 16.08.06 at 11:08]

Loki

Well if they have a Collective Bargaining Agreement (which covers notice periods for strikes, etc), then you are correct she had no right to walk off the job. But I still don't think that proves (1) she is unsuitable for a management position, and/or (2) she was not discriminated against.

To say she's lucky to get away with a paid suspension is bollocks (using English vernacular). You're taking the piss (using more). It seems like you're suggesting she should have been fired. Thank God you're not the legal advisor for the Fairmont.

A Bermudian who makes her grievance known to the public would have to shy from your aggressive, imposing, fear-evoking legal advice. (hahaha)

This whole situation kills me.

PS: Loki, will you provide me with a job if I needed one? I'm Bermudian. So I guess you take that to mean I don't work as hard as any foreigner. But I'll promise to do my best. I'll work when and how you want me. I must say, I'll fight against abuse and discrimination though. And it might be a risk to take me on as their is no Collective Bargaining Agreement in place in your office. Whaddaya say? Will you hire me?

[silencedogood on 16.08.06 at 11:08]

What she did was immature and just plain dumb.

Posted by SmokingGun on 16.08.06 at 11:02

Nail on the head. If I were her would never want to announce to the whole island that I had been passed over for promotion. Isn't discretion part of the hotel business?

[jsm on 16.08.06 at 11:28]

"This whole situation kills me."

Me too. You're defending the woman for being childish, unprofessional, and staging an illegal walkout....the mind boggles.

[JJ on 16.08.06 at 11:31]

if she really believes she should have been given the promotion then she should just resign and offer her services elsewhere. As someone else said, qualified, hard wrking Bermudians are hard to find. I assume she thinks she is one and thus would have no problem being picked up by one of the other large hotels.

[Lost in Flatts on 16.08.06 at 11:34]

I still don't get it - there's clearly no evidence other than her word that she was discriminated because she's Bermudian. In fact you have the person who made the decision saying she wasn't qualified.

As I'm not omnipotent, you're right PtV, I don't know all the facts, but it seems to me she didn't get promoted because she lacked something they were looking for. She says she's got it, they say she doesn't. Given how hard it is to get and keep work permits, if she really was equally qualified and would do just as good a job, then why would they choose a foreigner?

[PREFER THE VICTIM on 16.08.06 at 11:34]

JSM

You're assuming that because I'm not on the bandwagon, I'm defending the lady.

My point was clear:

ONE OF THE MAIN POINTS BEING FORGOTTEN IS THAT DEBBIE FORDE CLAIMS SHE WAS DISCRIMINATED AGAINST. ANOTHER IS THAT EVEN IF SHE DID STAGE AN ILLEGAL WALKOUT, THAT DOES NOT PROVE SHE IS UNSUITABLE OR INCAPABLE OF BEING EMPLOYED IN A SENIOR MANAGEMENT POSITION.

That's not defense of her walk out.

[silencedogood on 16.08.06 at 11:40]

PtV,

Would you not agree that following the law is a very important ability for management in any industry?

If the woman can't follow the law in a lower level position, how can we expect a company to put faith in her ability to do so when she is given more authority and consequently more laws to abide by?

[youngin' on 16.08.06 at 11:40]

Why would any company (or hotel for that matter)pass on a 'qualified' person for someone of less qualifications? Surely the HR person hiring the staff would want the best for the company and therefore hire the most suited (and arguably the best qualified) person for the position? Bermudians have a sense of entitlement that they should get the job just because they are Bermudian...MOST arnt as nearly hard working, determined, or friendly as the foreign workers. Some are, and I give them credit, but to ms. Forde who thought she could handle the dual role job was obviously way off in her thinking, Im sure the manager hiring chose the best person for the company..not a choice simply based on nationality!

[PREFER THE VICTIM on 16.08.06 at 11:42]

Lost in Flatts,

Why do Supermarkets hire foreigners to stack shelves?

Why do we have foreign dishwashers in hotels?

Why does the new restaurant on Serpentine Road, Bermy Cuisine, have foreign service staff? (See Bermuda Sun, p. 32)

Some claim it's because Bermudians are unqualified and lazy. Some say its a question of economics. You take your pick.

I've only said that you can't make an assessment on the evidence available. Forde claims she was discriminated against. The hotel denies it. Forde wasn't the only person in the walk-out.

[silencedogood on 16.08.06 at 11:42]

P.S. Before you jump from foot to foot with glee in an attempt to play gotcha.

I'm not saying they didn't promote her for this reason. I'm saying her violation of the collective bargaining agreement very well is a sign she's not cut out for management.

[PREFER THE VICTIM on 16.08.06 at 11:48]

All,

Here is the flaw in logic you all are participating in promoting:

Debbie Forde was not promoted on Day 1. On Day 2 she stages a walk out illegally because she claim her lack of promotion was discrimination. On Day 3 she is suspended for the walk-out.

Ready for the flaw? Here it is:

Debbie Forde's actions on Day 2 is reason for her not to be promoted to a senior management position, even though she was denied promotion on Day 1 for some other reason not related to a walk-out.

You're using Debbie Forde's subsequent action after being denied as the reason for denial. That's improper.

[JJ on 16.08.06 at 11:52]

PtV

"Why do Supermarkets hire foreigners to stack shelves?

Why do we have foreign dishwashers in hotels?"

well clearly not for qualification reasons! I guess it's because they advertised the jobs and no Bermudians applied. The ones who might "aspire" to such positions make more selling drugs (your economic argument)

[SmokingGun on 16.08.06 at 11:52]

"Why do Supermarkets hire foreigners to stack shelves?"

Because not too many Bermudians would put up with the way the foreigners are treated. Bermudians own the stores and hire ex-pats at a price that works well for both parties. However the foreigners are expected to put in 65+ hours a week on a straight salary with no over-time pay. Next time you see a foreigner stacking shelves just say thanks.

Why do we have foreign dishwashers in hotels?

Ditto for the dishwashers. Next time you're forced to pay the 15% gratuity ask the waiter if he's going to be sharing any of it with the dishwashers. Better still slide them a few bucks directly once and a while because you know they'll never ask.

[loki on 16.08.06 at 11:56]

PTV -

As I said before - and I'll repeat it by way of cut and paste -

"Ms. Forde had been given an undertaking that she would be trained by the incoming manager to take over that position. The Fairmont also gave the same undertaking to the Department of Immigration and, indeed, this was an express condition of the work permit issued. Apparently, this was not good enough for Ms. Forde, so she stormed off the job."

Rather than snapping up the opportunity to be given the training that had been offered to who, which offer had been satisfactory to the Department of Immigration, she displayed rank immaturity and mangerial irresponsibility by taking illegal industrial action. If she had a grievance, she should have taken it to the union. She didn't; she had a fit of pique and demonstrated that she doesn't have the mangerial aptitude for the position. This is precisely why we Bermudians have a reputation as being lazy and with a sense of entitlement. And, yes, if you have a decent attitude (willing to work hard, learn and, yes, have a little fun in the workplace, to boot, I'd offer you a job in my firm if I had an opening!)

[FYI on 16.08.06 at 11:58]

P.T.Y.
Ask any of those companies why they have foreign dishwashers or food service workers. And I guarantee you the answer will come back because they advertise for those jobs and No Bermudians apply. Or on the odd chance that a Bermudian applies for the job, usually they are hired. Then 2 weeks go by (if your lucky) and they just don’t show up to work because they don’t want to anymore or they are calling in sick every other day. Hey don’t get me wrong I am in no way Anti-Bermudian (I’m Bermudian), I’m just realistic. I have seen it first hand, you can ask any of the restaurants on the island and they will all have stories.

[PREFER THE VICTIM on 16.08.06 at 12:00]

"Why do Supermarkets hire foreigners to stack shelves?"

Because not too many Bermudians would put up with the way the foreigners are treated. Bermudians own the stores and hire ex-pats at a price that works well for both parties. However the foreigners are expected to put in 65+ hours a week on a straight salary with no over-time pay. Next time you see a foreigner stacking shelves just say thanks.

Posted by SmokingGun on 16.08.06 at 11:52

Thanks for what. Because they are willing to take improper abuse from employers for very little remuneration? You made the point for the capitalistic, greedy, economic argument. They have no reason to be here, because employers shouldn't have carte blanche to treat their employees like dirt for very little pay.

"Why do Supermarkets hire foreigners to stack shelves?

****

Why do we have foreign dishwashers in hotels?"

well clearly not for qualification reasons! I guess it's because they advertised the jobs and no Bermudians applied. The ones who might "aspire" to such positions make more selling drugs (your economic argument)

Posted by JJ on 16.08.06 at 11:52

You are so offensive, its unbelievable here. I forgive you. You didn't think before you wrote it.

[PREFER THE VICTIM on 16.08.06 at 12:07]

Loki

That's nice to hear. So what is the name of your firm? I think I may apply to you some time.

I know you're most likely going to say there are no openings for me, at present. Either way, I wouldn't mind holding on to your contact information for later reference.

[silencedogood on 16.08.06 at 12:08]

You're using Debbie Forde's subsequent action after being denied as the reason for denial. That's improper.

Posted by PREFER THE VICTIM on 16.08.06 at 11:48

Dude! Did I not just say that's not so? Has the thought ever crossed your mind that she might not have had the qualifications, experience, or the attitude required prior to this latest example? And perhaps that has been demonstrated at work which is private and known to her managers only?

All people are saying here is that she demonstrated in a very public way what the company's assesment was--she's not ready. People don't just change radically overnight.

[SmokingGun on 16.08.06 at 12:09]

I don't blame Ms. Forde for being upset or feeling slighted. I just think she has obviously not truly learned her trade to the standards expected.
Sometimes the hardest thing to do in everyday life is to simply bite ones lip and be as proffesional as possible in doing the job. Especially in the service industries.

Maybe she should go talk to Doc Brown and ask him how things would have been handled if she were working at the Burg.

[loki on 16.08.06 at 12:09]

PTV

If you think I'm outing myself on this board........

[jake on 16.08.06 at 12:12]

Walkouts are extreme, but can be a good way to let off steam in heated situations. I prefer a walk out to violence, and I prefer due process to walk outs. I don't think it invalidates her for leadership roles, however.

I take great offence to the comments about Bermudians being lazy...

There are people in every society that are lazy (and Jamaica is hardly an exception, JQ). By definition, most of the lazy people will never leave (too lazy to do so?) so the comment can be applied to any country you happen to be standing in.

That does not mean every import is hard working and smart however. There are a fair number of imports who don't make the grade.

I think Debbie has an arguable grievance, and it should be heard in due course at the proper time. I would consider hiring her though, because she has the confidence of those she leads - the walked out with her. She probably needs some time to think about how better to lead them next time, but she is probably a star at what she does.

By the way I found the explanation for why she was not hired lacking in both substance and credibility. I hope the tribunal gets something better than the interview on ZFB.

[Lost in Flatts on 16.08.06 at 12:13]

And it suddenly becomes clear PTV is just playing around, haha, I get it, devil's advocate. Okay cool, I'll stop trying to point out the flaws in your logic then. For example, you've just put a managerial position at a major hotel in the same boat as shelf stacking and dishwasing, in a debate about qualifications. Sigh.

[PREFER THE VICTIM on 16.08.06 at 12:14]

Loki

Outing yourself. I was trying to get myself employed. You can't even say what firm you own/work for?

There goes that fabulous opportunity.

Thanks anyway.

*****

silencedogood,

I dont know whether or not the Hotel made a fair assessment of Debbie Forde. I dont have the information enough to make the call. And because you are in the same shoes as me, you should refrain from taking sides. I'll say it again: it is faulty logic to use Forde's later action as reason for her not being promoted.

If she was unqualified and unsuitable, that's one thing. But evidence of that unsuitability cannot come from her subsequent action. The reason being: she was given an explanation for not receiving the promotion.

As far as her suitability for the post is concerned, your assessment should only regard what she was told by Treww. After all, that's how he made his decision. That's what must be analysed. There is no evidence to allow you to make the judgment.

[SmokingGun on 16.08.06 at 12:18]

"Thanks for what. Because they are willing to take improper abuse from employers for very little remuneration? You made the point for the capitalistic, greedy, economic argument. They have no reason to be here, because employers shouldn't have carte blanche to treat their employees like dirt for very little pay." - Prefer The Victim

Maybe you should change that to Play The Victim?

What are you going on about? You think I condone the behaviour? Bermuda has some serious issues with how we are going to sustain our future. I'd rather see two Bermudians hired working 40 hour weeks over the abused foreign worker but it's Bermudians who have to make that choice. Not just the store owners but the customers as well. You only get 100 cents out of a dollar.

Hey RedOnion - didn't I tell you Bermudians always want it both ways! ;-)

[loki on 16.08.06 at 12:25]

In the broader scheme of things, whether or not she should have been given the position is largely irrelevant. I daresay that none of us is really in a position to make a definitive assessment in that regard. She's being criticized for her subsequent actions which, regardless of her frustration, are incompatible with someone who is responsible enough, and has the aptitude for a mangerial position. If she had a grievance, there is a clearly defined procedure for dealing with that under the relevant collective bargaining agreement. A responsible person would have dealt with it in the appropriate way. She called the press and walked out with her team.

[JJ on 16.08.06 at 12:55]

PTV
I apologise if my comments hurt your feelings, but I am just saying it like it is. It's a well known fact (pardon the cliche) that if you lack the qualifications/experience to aspire to a well paid position in any business in Bermuda there is ample, easy money to be made selling drugs. It's a fact, sorry if it affends you. The jobs you refer to in supermarkets and restaurants require little skill but do need the willingness to work long, hard hours.

[silencedogood on 16.08.06 at 13:05]

PtV,

Very true. The people who know the most about the situation (i.e. requirements for the promotion, Ms. Forde's qualifications, performance and attitude, etc.) are the management of the hotel. But this is exactly why I give the hotel considerable lattitude.

Their interest is to hire the best person. Her's is to get the best job--an inherent bias.

So while I can't say definitively that is or isn't qualified (and I haven't), her subsequent behaviour gives us all some indication as to what type of person she is and casts doubts on her self assesment that she was the best candidate.

[RedOnion on 16.08.06 at 13:09]

Smokes .. I know, I am Bermudian, I want it both ways, want my cake and to eat it too, and want my bread buttered on both sides. BUT .. reality sets in and I have to take what I can get :)

I still think Ms Forde showed in her walkout that she is not yet ready for a senior management position, plain and simple. Perhaps on reflection she will learn this and figure out a more mature (business wise) way to deal with issues.

[jake on 16.08.06 at 13:14]

I challenge that assessment JJ.

I would refer you to the study covered in Freakanomics, where the compensation from drug dealing is compared on a risk adjusted basis to Mc Donalds. The Big Mac wins.

As the author says, if it is so lucrative, why do so many dealers still live with their mama.

Really.

The quote I saw in the paper was $200mm for our local dealers of death annually. Granted that is larger than many businesses, but there are countless industries where that number (locally) is comparatively small.

According to our 2005 Economic report construction, transport, education, retail and international business have each generated larger annual numbers than the drug trade -WITHOUT the risk of imprisonment, so if risk adjusted it means their value is even higher.

Drugs as a target industry is not the logical choice even if the only way it is measured is in dollars and sense (intentional pun).

[anarchy on 16.08.06 at 13:36]

Simple solution.....OPEN YOUR OWN f&$#*! HOTEL IF YOU WANT TO BE TOP DOG .......OWNERS HAVE THE RIGHT (OR WRONG) TO HIRE WHOMEVER THEY WISH.....POOR LADY HAS SOLD HER-SELF SHORT AND WILL BE BLACK BALLED FOR LIFE......WOULD HAVE BEEN BETTER OFF SEEKING A 2ND OPINION FROM A NEUTRAL FRIEND

[Guilden M. Gilbert, Jr. on 16.08.06 at 13:38]

Jake,

I fully agree with you. I get tired of hearing the comment that Bermudians are lazy and I take exception to that comment because I am a Bermudian and I am definitely not lazy and I can name many other non-lazy Bermudians.

I also agree that her actions do not mean Ms. Forde is not of management material. Have no other managers made bad or inappropriate decisions, that is, mistakes. If she does not reflect on this incident and realise that there may have been a few alternatives to what she did than she may be deemed not to be management material.

Ken Lay was considered management material, was he not? But look where his management abilities got him.

I think it is unfair to label someone as non-managerial material based on one action. Clearly the hotel had some confidence in her management abilities because they wanted her to understudy for the foreign manager. So please stop label her as non-management material based on one incident. How many of you know Ms. Forde personally or have worked with her directly in order to make such an assessment?

Loki, as a attorney I am sure you have lost some cases due to error, as have every other attorney. Does that make you ill-equipped to be an attorney or did you learn the error of your ways and grow from it?

Remember, "Judge not lest ye be judged."

[JJ on 16.08.06 at 13:48]

I read that book too Jake and I think the author's point was that people went into drug dealing because they had the belief, however unlikely,that they might one day be the #1 , the king pin making the huge bucks and were willing to take the risks for the lower initial income. I recall he also made a point of the "glamour" or bad boy image that seemed to be favoured by the girls.
But none of this has anything to do with dealing drugs in Bermuda. The author's sample was in Chicago (or maybe another huge city I forget). Here drug dealing isn't very dangerous, is largely ignored by the police and is certainly individually remunerative. I recall a recent article of an interview with some young people here where a kid said he made $1,000 a day. Not bad compared to stacking groceries.I will admit that it may get more dangerous if the current increase in gang related violence continues.

[Jamaican Q on 16.08.06 at 13:51]

Anarchy...I agree...if you want to be a top dog then open your own damn hotel! There are so many companies in Jamaica which are family owned and no matter what you do, or hard you study or how high your qualifications are, you can kiss being the CEO goodbye! These people will train their 18 year old relation, send them to college to get the same degree and whether or not they are qualifed, the job is theirs! Miss Forde wouldn't last a day in any of those kind of companies.....she should just pretend the hotel is family owned, accept what has happened and move on. Someone else will value her skills and leadership qualities....but no company likes to see anyone creating industrial action and so now I am sure that there is a big question mark over her head...before hse gets hired anywhere...if she chooses to leave the hotel...NOBODY likes troublemakers and that is just the harsh reality!

[RedOnion on 16.08.06 at 13:53]

Guilden, one of the attributes of a succesful manager is crisis management, thinking clearly and making sound decisions while under stress. Obviously in this case Ms Forde has not demonstrated that she is capable of doing that. Not taking away any attributes or abilities she has, but walking off the job is probably the least advised way to deal with that situation. As someone else here said, had she taken the high road and showed business maturity she may still be at work lined up to take a higher position.

[PREFER THE VICTIM on 16.08.06 at 14:06]

This is what I would like to ask:

How many people here are actually employed in management positions? and where?

[inBda on 16.08.06 at 14:16]

As I see it Ms Forde has acted first and thought later.....regardless of her greivance she should have followed the professional protocols and acted in a manner that would have substantiated her claim to be worthy of a management position - calling the press and then walking out on her job did not do her any favours regardless of the outcome of the Union inquiry.

Bermuda is not exactly the biggest employment market....most potential employers will now know of Ms Forde by reputation so she has done her long term prospects more harm than good

Anyone looking for a Concierge & Royal Service manager that is likely to walk off the job ?

[JJ on 16.08.06 at 14:22]

PTV
you go first.

[Shipwrecked on 16.08.06 at 14:32]

Ms. Forde's qualifications, or lack thereof, are no longer the issue. She walked off the job, called the RG (or maybe they just happened to be walking by with a camera), and made a public issue out of her situation. She willfully and publicly embarrassed her employer without going through any form of conflict resolution to avoid it. She should have been terminated on the spot for cause and the staff that followed her should have formal reprimands put in their files for their actions.

A concierge is not a dishwasher, or accountant, or programmer- they are the public face of a hotel and responsible for dealing with their most valued clients. When those clients see someone who they are encouraged to trust with personal business behaving in the manner that Ms. Forde did, their trust in the entire hotel chain is compromised. As a regular user of Fairmont Gold services and a member of both their tennis and fitness clubs I know I will be asking that my and any of my visitors business be handled by someone other than her in the future.

[The Right Reverend Uncle Elvis on 16.08.06 at 14:36]

JJ, exactly.

PTV, when you come out from behind the pseudonym, THEN you may have a case for asking people to reveal themselves, but as long as you hide behind a pen-name, you don't get to expect people to reveal themselves.

[sleepy on 16.08.06 at 14:55]

Doesn't Minister of Labour and Home Affairs Randy Horton have a jobs-for-the-boys position with Fairmont Southampton.

Isn't it in their HR department?

[SmokingGun on 16.08.06 at 15:12]

PTV - my name is SmokingGun. I spend too much time on Limey's site and am not as productive as I should be in my job. My boss tried to fire me but I pointed out that getting half the work done was better than getting none of the work done. He agreed. I think my boss is a pushover and wouldn't last two seconds in the real world. He's a Bermudian.

Howvever on a different note: Both he and I are duely impressed with the young Bermudian Mr. Ian Dinckley (sp) for his great accomplishment in becoming President of Coach International. Especially as he did it whilst working in Japan! Just goes to show what one can make of oneself if you don't spend too much time with The Limey...

[RedOnion on 16.08.06 at 15:18]

Dang, so that's where I went wrong, spending all my time on this site and not getting my work done. I put it down to keeping up with current affairs, sharpening my debating skills and contributing a couple of cents here and there but probably my boss thinks I am a lazy good for nothing check cashing Bermudian.

[SmokingGun on 16.08.06 at 15:23]

"I put it down to keeping up with current affairs, sharpening my debating skills and contributing a couple of cents here and there"

Sounds like work to me. Apply for a raise!

[Guilden M. Gilbert, Jr. on 16.08.06 at 15:39]

RedOnion,

"...one of the attributes of a succesful manager is crisis management, thinking clearly and making sound decisions while under stress. Obviously in this case Ms Forde has not demonstrated that she is capable of doing that."

I do not disagree with you but the fact remains that this is one incident. How do you know that this is the norm for Ms. Forde? I ask the question again, "Do you know Ms. Forde and have you worked with her to determine her work ethic and capabilities? If not, than if is unfair to label her because of one incident. This type of thing happens continuously on this board, I will admit that I too have been guilty of it but it does not make me right, we pass judgement without knowning all the facts.

However, are you saying that because of one bad decision and action a person can be deemed to be non-managerial material?

Let me give you an real life example, when I was leaving an employer I wrote to the department manager stating what I thought was owed to me for untaken vacation. I overheard the manager tell my immediate supervisor that my actions were tentamount to a union mentality and my supervisor agreed. When I confronted them about it they were shocked that I even knew this was said about me. My reaction was one of anger.

Does my response mean that I was not management material or it was it simply that I would not allow anyone to walk over me?

[Shipwrecked on 16.08.06 at 15:49]

Guilden,

The difference here is that she went public with her problem while working in a position that requires discretion and maturity. It's equivalent to an accountant intentionally adding only one bad entry to a spreadsheet, or a police officer committing only one crime while on duty. She violated one of the most important principles of her specific position and you don't get a mulligan for that.

[inBda on 16.08.06 at 15:50]

Ah but Guilden - you confronted them and dealt with them directly did you not ? I assume that you didn't call the press and stage a walk out....

That is the difference....you just don't act like that if you expect to be respected professionally as management material

Would you hire Ms Forde given her recent actions ?

[silencedogood on 16.08.06 at 15:51]

The devil is in the details Guilden, but you didn't take your beef to the RG or walk out with 5 other employees.

Any similar mistakes Ms. Forde may have made would be minor in comparison to the can of worms she just opened. I'm sure that reality is dawning on her just about now during her 'cooling off' period.

[Jamaican Q on 16.08.06 at 15:52]

Poor Miss Forde....getting beat up on a blog....I am sure this is not going to help her new found reputation!

[inBda on 16.08.06 at 15:58]

She's not being beaten up - just proves the law of physiscs that to every action there is an equal and opposite reaction....

[SmokingGun on 16.08.06 at 16:03]

I think her boss has recognised the situation for what it was: "She's been asked to take a paid leave for couple of days so she can cool off." Good for him. He obviously has some appreciation for the job she does but also recognises the sensitivity of the issue. He has decided to take the high road and in due course I am sure he will find a solution for both the hotel and the employee.

In the meantime Ms. Forde would do herself a world of good by just admitting her anger/dissapointment got the better of her and apologize for any uneccessary embarassment that has come out of this unfortunate situation.

That said she should also seek counselling on both her legal rights and her chosen career.

[RedOnion on 16.08.06 at 16:15]

Guilden, to answer your question, no I do not know Ms Forde. I do not know if her reaction is the norm for her, but it only takes one failure to offset ten successes in the eye of management or owners.

In the context of being considered for a managerial position that requires crisis management abilities, she failed miserably at demonstrating that she can handle adverse situations.

It's not quite the same as when you were leaving your employment and politely and correctly asking for benefits due to you. Your intentions were obviously misunderstood or at least distorted by your manager. In her case she is hoping for a promotion within the same organization but demonstrating that she is not yet mature enough for that position.

What I am saying is that after this cooling off period and perhaps a course or two in management she may be considered for the position in the future .. however some people have long memories and the radical reaction she had may unfortunately be her downfall within that company as far as advancement. Nothing personal in this opinion, just a statement of business fact.

[island dweller on 16.08.06 at 16:16]

Good day All,

We note the failing of Ms. Forde, but is necessary to understand that Bermudians should get all the jobs they want.

It does not matter if they are unqualified, they are Bermudian. Companies should make the investment and train them while the job is done subpar or not at all.

We should all support this mentality and run all of our businesses this way. Afterall, we have a stellar education system to support this. The graduation is at the acceptable Bermuda level of less than 50%, so why do we need to concern ourselves with these trival matters.

Being Bermudian is an entilement to having anything desired.

Sincerely

[Jamaican Q on 16.08.06 at 16:24]

Island Dweller.....I beg to differ...no company who exists on your shores should be obligated to train anyone...who says? Bermuda's sole purpose (like the other BOTs) is to facilitate offshore international business and be a tax free haven....who cares about Bermudians? I know many Jamaican companies registered in Bermuda for "tax purposes"....you think they care about investing in the people? I doubt it...in fact the day that the tax laws change, is the last you will hear of Bermuda being a viable place to do business. What has happened is that the inhabitants of the BOTs have grown lackadasical and are sitting by and watching others come in and take their jobs, without any incentive to go out there and qualify themselves....I know I will get beat up over my statements...but it's factual!

Why should anyone hire anyone just because they are Bermudian? Nonsese I say!

[silencedogood on 16.08.06 at 16:35]

Jamaican Q--I'm not sure how you did it, but I think you missed his sarcasm. (i hope so at least)

[SmokingGun on 16.08.06 at 16:39]

Jamaican Q - I beg to differ. I agree 100% with island dweller. Today we should build walls whilst the sun shines for we will all need a place to sit when reality sets in.

[Jamaican Q on 16.08.06 at 16:42]

Well Smoking Gun....If you want to sit and think that anyone can even protect their own shores then you have another thing coming. The Global Labour Market is such that companies like GM couldn't give 2 hoots about Americans...they are gone to Europe or Asia where they can build a car for little and nothing....who cares about the human factors left behind?

Silencedgood: Remember these blogs are emotionless so I was just taking his comments at face value:))

[Guilden M. Gilbert, Jr. on 16.08.06 at 16:44]

Island Dweller,

I do not think anyone on this board has said or even suggested that a Bermudian should fill every position.

Clearly if a Bermudian is unqualified for a certain job they should not get it, however, the Bermudian should ALWAYS get the job over a foreigner where the same or similar qualifications exist.

Do you disagree with this?

Whether this is the case here is still somewhat unknown. In general, however, that is how it should be, from my perspective anyway because I belive very strongly in Bermudianization (spouses of Bermudians are included as Bermudians), with the added caveat, when they are sufficiently qualified. For me qualification is not necessary related to education, moreso experience and expertise.

[Ali on 16.08.06 at 16:44]

JQ, I don't know how long you have been here but over the years an attitude has developed, reinforced by the Union that just "being Bermudian" is a good enough reason to be given a job and now many locals don't want to do the hard jobs. They expect the better paying ones hence the influx of guest workers in restaurants, gardening, maintenance etc. etc. I don't know if that is the case with Miss Forde but it is definitely an attitude and is one reason why service is so poor in many areas,we have to wake up to the Global nature of business, 20 hours of productivity in a 40 hour week just isn't good enough.

[Ali on 16.08.06 at 16:48]

Guilden, agreed but 'qualified' includes having the right attitude, which is where many Bermudians fall down.

[sandgrownan on 16.08.06 at 16:49]

Problem is Guilden, is that Bermudianisation breeds mediocrity.

[Jamaican Q on 16.08.06 at 16:52]

Ali: I don't live in Bermuda..only visited there once...I have a ton of Bermudian friends but I do read a LOT on the global labour market issues based on my area of work. Trade unions are a nuisance if you ask me...and they will soon be a thing of the past....

[Guilden M. Gilbert, Jr. on 16.08.06 at 16:54]

Ali,

Nonsense. Before I left Bermuda this was put to me by someone in the offshore company in which I was working and may argument and position was that i was not going to simply stay around the office for "politics". If I was efficient at what I was doing and completed in an 8 hour day why should I stay at the office?

I think one should only have to work long hours where and when necessary not because it "looks good". I told the company to judge me on quality of my work and the positive client and underwriter responses rather than the amount of time I spend in office.

When that was looked at there were no more complaints about why I was not in office late at night.

[Martin on 16.08.06 at 16:55]

Guilden...

Let me take Ali's point a little further and ask you the question....what factors would you look for in considering someone for a job - promotion or otherwise.

Is it just as simple as saying "qualifications"...or (as used to be in the UK in the 60's/70's...the very simplistic view that "service" should be the deciding criteria...or what?

Your thoughts would be welcomed...as I have a suspicion that many Bermudians (and I include Immigration) see it on a simple basis, i.e. qualifications and perhaps yrs of experience.

[inBda on 16.08.06 at 16:56]

Paper qualifications only go so far in the service sector....I have been on the receiving end of far too many bad attitudes and appalling service to believe that a person should get the job based on the qualifications they hold....

Being "equally qualified" does not make you equally suitable for a position in the service/hospitality sector interpersonal skills are also a major factor

[Guilden M. Gilbert, Jr. on 16.08.06 at 16:58]

Sandgrownan,

Belief that Bermudianization means that you are owed something leads to medicrity, not Bermudianization itself.

In university I was told by the Dean of Economics, who was my host parent, "Do not believe that a university degree qualifies you for anything, it simply tells a perspective employer you have the ability to learn."

[ken on 16.08.06 at 16:58]

I agree totally Guilden.

I used to work in an insurance company where I performed my task timely, professionally and accurately, largely within the time frame of 8-5:30. Some coworkers would remain around the office til 8pm & 9pm socializing, surfing the net, or perhaps working because they had socialized and surfed the net all day. Yet they were rewarded for their 'dedication' by receiving more than double the bonus that I received. I was seen as not dedicated because I didn't live and breathe for the job. Well, I have a family, they didn't. I informed my managers that i found it ridiculous to penalize me for getting my work done in a timely fashion. They 'agreed' but my bonuses still lagged behind. Yet none of my performance appraisals or reviews bore any negativity toward my job performance.

[SmokingGun on 16.08.06 at 17:03]

JQ - island dweller's comments were dripping with sarcasm. As often times are mine. However just to prove that I do not have my head buried in a bucket of pink sand allow me this:

A few givens: People need to eat, sleep and drink. Not necessarily in that order.

The average Bermudian lives in a relative paradise.
They only want to work 40 hour weeks and receive full benefits.
They do not really want the hard or mundane jobs.
The average Bermudian's job is likely to be found in a service industry.

Bermuda based companies rely on money spent "in" Bermuda.

The average Bermudian is not happy spending their money in Bermuda. They take numerous trips abroad and spend it off island.

The fact is simple: That scenario is not sustainable. The less money in the pot, the less money to spend on people and benefits. Bermudians need to wake up to taking care of each other by raising the standard of their work ethic, appreciating the great environment they live in and foregoing some of the frivolous trappings they may desire. As they say, you can't have it both ways.

[frank on 16.08.06 at 17:04]

"Clearly if a Bermudian is unqualified for a certain job they should not get it, however, the Bermudian should ALWAYS get the job over a foreigner where the same or similar qualifications exist."

For those of you who have actually interviewed people for jobs, can you truthfully say that you have ever seen two people with the same qualifications? Someone is always better than the other and there are invariably important qualifications that are fuzzy in nature. The policy of "given two people of equal standing, hire the Bermudian" is hollow. It only works if you are hiring any old applicant based on minimum qualifications, rather than on hiring the best.

I prefer the approach of doing whatever you have to do to make Bermudians the best qualified, not giving someone preferential bias and hoping they pass muster.

[The Lion on 16.08.06 at 17:04]

Running to the media is prerequisite for all Bermudians. We love to see our name in the RG or our face on ZBM. The great thing about it is we really do not have to do much the actually succeed. The lady made a mistake she was angry and she was probably hurt that she did not get the job and she made a rash decision. If nothing else as misguided as it was she has clearly demonstrated leadership because all the sheep followed her (possibly grateful for the extra break). The real question is how she handles matters moving forward, does she quit, does she apologise, does she carry on doing what she is doing baring the scars. We will probably never know as if it is any of the three things I have suggested it is already yesterday's news.

JQ what he hell is a BOT. From the context I can work out what it is but am not familiar with the acronym.

[Jamaican Q on 16.08.06 at 17:06]

The Lion: BOT=British Overseas Territories.

[inBda on 16.08.06 at 17:09]

BOT = British Overseas Territory....

[SmokingGun on 16.08.06 at 17:11]

BOT = Bottom of the....

[silencedogood on 16.08.06 at 17:14]

Trade unions are a nuisance if you ask me...and they will soon be a thing of the past....

Posted by Jamaican Q on 16.08.06 at 16:52

From your lips to God's ears mate. It would improve the quality of life for most of the rock.

[The Lion on 16.08.06 at 17:16]

I had assumed something to do with offshore jurisdiction. Thank you for the clarification.

[Shipwrecked on 16.08.06 at 17:19]

Ken and Guilden,

From your posts it seems like you are complaining about being treated unfairly at work. Guess what- anyone who goes home early (on time) gets the short straw, anywhere. Your job is not just about how much you produce, but how much of a team player you are, how others regard you, and how much the company feels it can rely on you. If you get all you work done and then go home right on time while others don't, you are producing fine, but the rest of your duties are hurting- you are view as Mr. 5:01pm and not dedicated enough to the 'team' (BS, but part of life in the real world) . You decided to buck the company's corporate culture and got stung for it- that’s corporate life for you. If you don't like it get a government or union job. Jobs aren't just about how much you produce- its how you go about producing within the company's culture that’s important

[Guilden M. Gilbert, Jr. on 16.08.06 at 17:39]

Ken,

I understand fully because I have never been one to "suck-up" to anyone else in order to get ahead it may have prevent some forward movement in the corporate world but I would prefer to earn less money than kiss someone's behind to earn more.

I have heard no man on his death-bed say he wishes he spent more time working and less time with family and friends.

You know what? That is why today I work for myself, we can never say never, but my goal is to never again have to work for anyone else and my goal is to never have my son work for someone else because as far as i am concered he deserves better. I will make the sacrifice to make things easier for him.

When you are working for another person you are subjected to their goals and the value of your work is based on what they are prepared to pay you.

[Guilden M. Gilbert, Jr. on 16.08.06 at 17:46]

Shipwrecked,

So what about the 3 or 4 nights a week I spent doing client dinners and was getting home after midnight. My goal has never been and never will be to live to work, I work to live.

My family will ALWAYS come before my job.

Why should someone have to stay around the office until late at night to prove he is a team player?

[Guilden M. Gilbert, Jr. on 16.08.06 at 17:55]

Shipwrecked,

The irony in all of this is that since I have been self-employed I actually work longer hours. My wife comments that although I am home she rarely sees me.

The difference is my efforts are direct rewards to me and my family. I have seen too many occasions where people have worked for an employer for 20, 30, 40, etc years and at the end of the day what do they get, a nice watch and a handshake. Not interested.

Not interested in the corporate politics where many people get ahead based not on ability but on who likes them.

[SmokingGun on 16.08.06 at 18:03]

"The irony in all of this is that since I have been self-employed I actually work longer hours."

Funny - I was just going to ask you if that was the case. Do you find also find there is more isolation? I run my own comanies and can attest to the long hours but there's a lot to be said for being able call the shots. However there's also a lot to be said for being able to just go home at night and letting someone else worry about the shop.

[Guilden M. Gilbert, Jr. on 16.08.06 at 18:21]

SmokingGun,

Right now as the companies are new, there is constant stress and sleepless nights. There are three employees, Me, Myself and I and these three handle every aspect of the companies.

[Martin on 16.08.06 at 18:22]

Guilden...

Let me take Ali's point a little further and ask you the question....what factors would you look for in considering someone for a job - promotion or otherwise.

Is it just as simple as saying "qualifications"...or (as used to be in the UK in the 60's/70's...the very simplistic view that "service" should be the deciding criteria...or what?

Your thoughts would be welcomed...as I have a suspicion that many Bermudians (and I include Immigration) see it on a simple basis, i.e. qualifications and perhaps yrs of experience.

[SmokingGun on 16.08.06 at 18:34]

Guilden - one word of advice. Make sure the first person you hire is better at everything you do. And pay them well for it. You'll be amazed at how much sleep you get.

OK two words: never ignore the wife. ;-)

[Guilden M. Gilbert, Jr. on 16.08.06 at 18:47]

Martin,

Sorry, I did see your earlier post and had intended to respond, I was not ignoring you.

It is difficult to answer your question in a vaccuum because much of it depends on the type of company and the market in which it operates.

If we look at the Bermuda Insurance Market, let's say at mid-management. I would look for someone who has shown ability to take initiative by putting forward ideas for process improvement, one who is willing and able to impact knowledge they have gained over their career to those who are more junior without fear that the junior staff memeber will one day pass them in the corporate structure. I would look for someone who has developed semi-personal relationships with clients because the insurance industry in a relationship industry even in the global market place.

The person would have to be personable and be able to direct others withoug personal feelings getting in the way. One who can effectively separate a business relationship from a personal relationship.

The reality, from my perspective, is I would be more inclined to hire or promote someone who does not consistent saty late at work if the work load does not demand it. I think employees who live a balanced life, that is, while it is good to want to move up the corporate ladder, putting work before everything else, in my view, is unhealthy. The ideal employee is one who wants to succeed, is driven to succeed, yet realises that family is relaxation is also very important.

I think a balanced life reduces the likelihood of burn-out.

While I do favour Bermudianization, I am not foolish enough to believe that a Bermudian will be able to fill every post that is available. I do not scribe to the notion that Bermudians are lazy. Fact is some people have no drive to excel and others do.

I trust I have answered your question.

[Guilden M. Gilbert, Jr. on 16.08.06 at 18:58]

Smoking,

Thanks for the advice, I will definitely take it under consideration because the inndustries the companies I have formed are completely different from my insurance background.

Martin,

Sorry, I ommitted qualifications. I am not opposed to one earning designations but they must show that the designation has not limited their knowledge to only what they have studied. Real life success and failures and the what a person learns from these experiences is much more important than a piece of paper showing someone has passed a series of exams.

I would not necessarily hire or promote one with designations over someone with experience. I have heard the argument, "He/she has done these exams and should be rewarded." This is a statement that I do not necessarily agree with.

From a personal note, I have faced competitive situations here in the Bahamas where I have competed for business with someone who has "papers" but I won the account because my experience allows me to "think outside the box" and create better structures. There have also been cases where I have been able to negotiate a move favourable premium by having the underwriter view the risk from a different perspective, again this goes back to experience.

For what it's worth, be aware that the American who got the job is not an expat with no ties to Bermuda, but is the fiance of a Bermudian.

I understand that employers are required to give Bermudians preference to spouses of Bermudians, and SOBs preference to anyone else. However bear in mind that if the non-Bermudian partner in a Bermudian/non-Bermudian couple is unable to get a job in Bermuda, that couple may choose to live outside Bermuda instead. My wife and I were in precisely that situation - we were living in London and could not consider moving to Bermuda (as my wife wanted, to be near her family) until I could get a job here.

Please don't misunderstand. I'm not suggesting that the American should have been given the job. Only the hotel knows who was best qualified. However if it means that that couple can now stay in Bermuda, perhaps the fact that a non-Bermudian got the job isn't such a big deal after all.