Another reason not to go independent

The UK has just announced that students from UK Overseas Territories, including Bermuda, will pay the same university tuition fees as UK students.

Fees for overseas students at British universities are considerably higher than those for locals, so this move will be a big help for young Bermudians and their parents.

Thanks to Stephen for the tip.

Comments

[SmokingGun on 21.11.06 at 14:36]

"The UK has an obligation under the UN Charter to promote the well-being of inhabitants of its overseas territories."

Nuf said.

[Uncle Elvis on 21.11.06 at 15:04]

That is a remarkably huge thing, if you ask me.
HUGE.
For me, getting our kids educated, and this is certainly a big step towards that, is FAR more important than what the Queen or the Governor can and can't do in this country.

Does anyone have any idea/statistics that they can post of what the difference in tuitions is going to be?

[SarahT on 21.11.06 at 15:42]

Damnit. WHY didn't they do that last year?!

[novote on 21.11.06 at 16:14]

Chching!

[Cancundreaming on 21.11.06 at 16:28]

This just killed any notion of independence for Bermuda ever...ever...wow. This issue is now dead... forever..

[J Starling on 21.11.06 at 17:12]

I would still support independence, but I am very very happy that the imperial motherland has gotten rid of this irrational system of treating us colonial British as total foreigners. Quite frankly I think it was quite racist that they installed it in the first place. Now, if we could only get rid of an unelected head of state and institute parliamentary reforms allowing a combination of national and federal parliaments and an elected senate/HoLords, then I would be less inclined towards independence. In the mean time I have some university applications to fill out.

[Tiger Bay on 21.11.06 at 17:36]

This is wonderful news. Now, we need to get our house in order so that 1) more Bermudian kids are willing and prepared to go on to further education, and 2) we make funding available to those who need it.

Too many scholarships here are given solely on academic merit (cough, to rich kids). I would like to see more needs based scholarships for local kids.

[sleepy on 21.11.06 at 17:43]

Starling, when was the last time OT citizens paid UK taxes which subsidise their universities?

Why are Bermudians entitled to a subsidised education in the UK when they haven't contributed to its funding.

This is a generous gesture on behalf of the UK and should as has been said, put yet another nail in that rotted out Independence coffin.

[TJL on 21.11.06 at 18:05]

The last time I was in the UK (about two years ago) Blair was dead set on raising tuitions for British students - at least by allowing top-up fees. Is that still happening?

[SmokingGun on 21.11.06 at 18:20]

"Quite frankly I think it was quite racist that they installed it in the first place." J Starling

How do you get racist out of it? Ethnic maybe but certainly not racist. Besides I thought we are foreigners.

[novote on 21.11.06 at 19:48]

J Starling - You clearly don't have the need for further education (?) or you don't have the prospect of paying for children that do!

Let's be conservative and estimate the annual cost of educating a young adult privately in US, Canada or UK currently at bmd25k. This therefore saves the average family with, say, two kids circa bmd100k.

I think that you'll find the purgatory of British 'rule' in Bermuda will be very attractive at that price.

The independence question is totally dead in the water!

[SmokingGun on 21.11.06 at 20:50]

Hmmm... I wonder if Phil Butterfield's going to offer up some of HSBC's money for a bunch of Bermudian kids to take advantage of the Motherland's most generous offer.....

[JJ on 21.11.06 at 21:17]

We now just need to improve the public education system so that more kids actually graduate with sufficient qualifications to be accepted by UK universities.

[Student on 21.11.06 at 21:22]

Just went onto the Oxford website to check up on intl student fees, and found the following. I'm not sure if the 'college fees' also apply to national students. This is AMAZING in any event, looking at a savings of at least 6,000 pounds = more than $10,000. I didn't favour independance before, and am now further sure that it would be a backwards step.

"University tuition fees for international (non-EU) students in 2007-8 have not yet been decided. Fee rates vary according to programme of study, but may be broadly categorised as shown below. For guidance, the fee rates applicable in 2006-7 are quoted in brackets.

Classics / Literae Humaniores; Philosophy and Theology; B.Th. in Theology (£8,880)
Most other programmes in social sciences, humanities and human sciences (£10,360)
Science subjects, including joint degrees, involving a laboratory-based element; Computer Science; Music; Fine Art (£11,840)
Clinical Medicine (£21,700)
Once finalised, university tuition fee levels for 2007-8 will be made available via this website. In addition, college fees are payable. These vary between colleges, and are likely to be in excess of £4,300 per annum. Annual increases in fee rates should be expected.

Candidates are classified as Home/EU students if they are citizens of the UK or another European Union country, and have been resident in the European Economic Area for the three year period ending on 31 August of the year in which their course at Oxford will commence. Non-European nationals may also qualify as Home students if they have indefinite leave to remain in the UK in addition to fulfilling residence requirements. Residence requirements cannot be fulfilled where students are resident mainly for the purpose of receiving full-time education. Holding British or other European Union citizenship is not sufficient to be granted Home status, without also fulfilling residence requirements. "

Incidentally, for those interested, Canada is generally cheaper than the UK, and the US more expensive (expect ~$45 - $50,000 per year for all expenses included for a top tier university)

[Rev. Goat on 21.11.06 at 21:33]

Here is an example
http://www.soton.ac.uk/study/feesandfunding/undergradfees.html

3000 pounds($6k) for uk, overseas students fees are ranging from 8700 ($16k) for standard stuff to 20,000(40K) for Med school.

Oh dear? i think that puts the kybosh on independance and crapicom dont you?

[Guilden M. Gilbert, Jr. on 21.11.06 at 21:40]

NoVote,

To you this may seems to kill the idea of Independence for Bermuda but I think you are confusing Independence with some distain for Great Britain. Independence is not about a hatre for Great Britain it is about Bermuda being able to manage its own affairs.

I would not disagree that this latest development and the passport matter make an argument in favour of Independence a very difficult one to make. It may be dead in the water as far as pursuing it at this time but it will never be a dead issue.

For me and many others there is nothing Great Britain can offer Bermuda that would change our views on Independence.

I can fully understand and respect why many people have no desire for Independence and I think this is why we now hear very little of Independence discussed, most people do not want it so what is the point of trying to push it on people? The majority rules and that position is very much acknowledged and respected.

I will always support and desire Independence for Bermuda but I would never want it done against the wishes of the majority of the population.

[novote on 21.11.06 at 22:32]

Guilden - No, it doesn't kill 'the idea of Independence'. What it does is destroy any further value in debating the viability of Independence. There are more important things in life than the erradication of some theoretical power that Britain might have over Bermuda. Educating our youth will bring greater empowerment to them than the false promise of Independence. That's the point, and this move by Britain will open the access to vast opportunity. I only hope that government action will generate sufficient improvement in primary and secondary education in Bermuda to allow ALL of our young people to meet the academic entry standards for a university education in the UK.

[Jonathan Lightbourne on 22.11.06 at 04:41]

The Bda government offers (and has done for quite some time) a fee differential for those students studying in UK universities. Now it seems that this will not be necessary any longer and I feel that to further this opportunity for young Bermudians these funds be used to help with the cost of air fares to and from the UK (for students).

[Lost in Flatts on 22.11.06 at 05:32]

Guilden, "The majority rules and that position is very much acknowledged and respected."

Sometimes I wonder if you ever take your ole PLP blinkers off...are you seriously standing behind this comment given Scott's tirade for independence in the 'spite' of almost a 70% majority? Please, we all know Brown has already started his politking on the issue with his hey Guv, why not break tradition and come down with me sometimes.

On a related note, that could have saved me a whole bunch o money on my damn higher education...maybe it'll be a masters after all!

[Kate on 22.11.06 at 08:07]

Actually, as a Brit, I really resent this is being give to people who do not pay a penny of tax to the UK. The sooner Bermuda takes up independence and stops being a burden the better. The UK have been trying to get rid of Bermuda for years but they just won't leave!!!!!!!

[Tiger Bay on 22.11.06 at 08:17]

The Brits also extended the education offer to the overseas territories of Denmark, France and the Netherlands.

http://www.theyworkforyou.com/wms/?id=2006-11-21a.32WS.0&s=bermuda#g32WS.1

Let's hope these fine nations return the favour!

The 1999 whitepaper mentioned in Parliament is here: http://www.fco.gov.uk/servlet/Front?pagename=OpenMarket/Xcelerate/ShowPage&c=Page&cid=1018028164839

[Simon on 22.11.06 at 08:30]

But if giving this perk to Bermudians means we get to send our daughter to Uni without paying the exorbitant foreign student fees I'm all for it so hopefully Bermuda wont go independent and throw a spanner in the works in the next couple of years!!!!

[Martin on 22.11.06 at 08:36]

Despite being against Independence, I am not sure this change will affect the debate on Independence at all.

I seem to recall Scott suggesting that closing off the right to live, work and be educated in the EU was no great deal, and that there were other/better opportunities for young Bermudians elsewhere.

Watch the PLP announce grants/loans etc for education on the US and Canada when the time is right.

[Darkside on 22.11.06 at 08:48]

As Bermuda is the largest ODT and pays no taxes to the UK this is truly a great gift to Bermuda. Perhaps they noticed our educational crisis?

[Tiger Bay on 22.11.06 at 08:49]

Tuition will be $5,700 under the UK offer.

Howard tuition is $13,000 a year. Alabama A&M is $8,320. Dalhousie is CD$10,660. Western is CD$12,500. Boston University is $33,000, Harvard is $42,000.

[sandgrownan on 22.11.06 at 08:52]

So Guilden, let me get this straight. For absolutely nothing in return, Great Britain is prepared to offer university tuition at the same rates as Brits., to Bermudian students and furthermore, is willing to give Bermudians a British passport and consequently the right to reside and work anywhere in the EU. You are prepared to remove those priviliges not only from our current population, but from future generations of Bermudians aswell, all in the name of the Holy Grail of Independence, because of some bizarre notion of destiny?
Guilden, you and other pro-independence stalwarts are very very selfish indeed.

[Ali on 22.11.06 at 09:01]

Guilden, your point "why push Independence on people?" is a good one. Hopefully the powers that be will also take that view. In the meantime why shouldn't we all take advantage of a good opportunity? I can understand Kate's view which only proves the point that being tied to Britain is a huge advantage to Bermuda. Do we want to sacrifice material benefit for ideology? The record for other colonies 'handling their own affairs' does not make good reading, however highly we like to think of ourselves I'd rather stick to the devil I know.

[youn1 on 22.11.06 at 09:02]

Kate I knew this would be the opinion of some people from the UK on the matter especially with the advent of top up fees. The only reason the UK has decided this is because of the small amount of overseas territories left and the small proportion of dependent territories students in the Universities. I asure you your tax bill will not increase a jot as a result of this. Further more if i am to be cynicle it may result in universities accepting less OT students as they will no longer have to pay the full whack. Although i doubt this will occur to a great extent you never know.

[silencedogood on 22.11.06 at 09:26]

Student,

You are mistaken regarding the expense associated with studying in the US. I studied here in bermuda, part in canada and part in the US. My costs were the same in canada and the US and would have been more in canada had the exchange rate been what it is today.

If you follow the link below it gives you a listing of the top tier schools in the US. You can then follow the links to their websites for financial info.

If you avoid the ivy league and go to one of the many state schools in the top tier your costs won't be anywhere near your figures. Lots of international scholarships too if your grades are good. Anyway, no need to limit your search.

http://www.usnews.com/usnews/edu/college/rankings/brief/t1natudoc_brief.php

This is great news though--especially for those wanting to train as lawyers or doctors. And it is a generous gift considering the restrictions put on UK citizens working in Bermuda.

[Bill Cook on 22.11.06 at 09:39]

The offer of lower education costfor ODTs is a very good one, but given Bermudas small size with consequent limited opportunities, I wonder how many students will opt to stay and not return to Bermuda ?

It would be a positive step if companies encouraged students to direct the brightest and best to return by offering opportunities within their organisations.

The problem with proponents of independence is that they never put forward logical reasons for doing so and often illogical reasons for not doing so.

Most rational people would prefer jam on their bread if they had the choice I think.

[SmokingGun on 22.11.06 at 10:13]

"Independence is not about a hatred for Great Britain it is about Bermuda being able to manage its own affairs." - Guilden

Although I'm sure there are a few people who might very well hate a lot of things about our relationship with Great Britain I would say the desire for independence is more about running things our way. Which is a non-starter. The smarter, more pragmatic and more forward thinking decision is hold onto what we've got for as long as we can. Our future generations need a strong ally in Great Britain.

Kate - We hear you loud and clear but for what it's worth the Bermudian people pay their way (taxes) through being one of the highest charitable donors per capita in the world. And a child sent to school in the UK will put money into your economy in other ways.

[beenthere on 22.11.06 at 11:39]

Based on my experience, Masters theses from UK students often amount to not more than an undergraduate term paper from Canadian universities, and the PhD "dissertations" not more than a Canadian Masters thesis. Maybe we should look to Canada for territory status (like Turks & Caicos). The prestigious US universities are good, but not good return on investment imho. I steer students to Canada.

[MrT on 22.11.06 at 12:02]

J Starling: "I am very very happy that the imperial motherland has gotten rid of this irrational system of treating us colonial British as total foreigners"

Speaking as an 'imperial motherland' Brit, I often wonder when Bermudians will start treating us as fellow Brits, rather than 'foreign' workers. Not forcing me to retake my driving and motorbike tests again would be a good start..!

[wensleydale on 22.11.06 at 12:47]

Looking a gift horse in the mouth

Not to dispel everyone’s enthusiasm; but ever since the 1990's the UK government has been slowly reducing the student grant and replacing it with the student loan. That done in the 2000’s they are slowly replacing free tuition with top up fees that are inevitably going up in payment every year. So when my mum went to university she had a maintenance income of 5,000 paid by the government and could claim unemployment benefit during the holidays. The government also paid 100% of her university fees. 30 years later when I went to University I was given 3,000 maintenance income and paid 1,000 top up fees. The general feeling in the UK is that University Education will cost a lot more in the future, with much higher top up fees.

This “fee gift” is probably going to be sort lived; and someone more cynical than myself may say this is possibly why the UK has offered this gift now.

My advice would be take advantage as quickly as possible.

[schooldaze on 22.11.06 at 12:53]

"Independence is not about a hatre for Great Britain it is about Bermuda being able to manage its own affairs"

Guilden - until our constitution is updated, PATI legislation implemented, parliamentary reforms and fixed term elections introduced in conjunction with an effective, open and transparent government this will be a great opportunity for our elected officials to go back to school in the UK (on the cheap) in pursuit of continuing government education ... something they're sorely lacking.

[SarahT on 22.11.06 at 13:11]

"For absolutely nothing in return, Great Britain is prepared to offer university tuition at the same rates as Brits., to Bermudian students and furthermore, is willing to give Bermudians a British passport and consequently the right to reside and work anywhere in the EU."

We're getting better treatment than the Brits themselves do meanwhile we can still treat Brits as complete foreigners. It just doesn't seem logical. Add to this the fact that Britain has been desperate to get rid of Bermuda for YEARS but now there are all these policies in place making it even better for us to remain a colony. None of it makes sense. I wouldn't be surprised if at some point in the future they DO start taxing us - on education at least. They'd be within their rights to. We're getting a total free ride right now, how long will this last?

And man, if they did, you better believe independence would be right back there on the table ...

[Bermudian on 22.11.06 at 13:31]

Please dont miss the irony point, but, here goes...

This is crazy i! How are we Bermudians who dont even pay taxes to the UK getting such a free ride. I mean, it's basically like we're going into someone else's country and benefiting from it without even deserving it!

U know what? this sounds familiar... sounds a LOT like COLONIALISM! Only this time, it's fair. You know why? Because the UK has been going around the world raping other countries of their resources and they didn't deserve it... it's about time they gave something back.

I'm all for creating a new inequality to make up for past inequalities... how else do you level the playing field? If anything, the UK should extend this offer to all the country's they really screwed over in the past. For all you Brits who want to be treated as locals in Bermuda, get over it. Even you have to admit that it would be illogical to extend Bermudian status to all citizens of the UK and the EU...let's be realistic here!

[Student on 22.11.06 at 13:39]

Silence,

You're correct, there are of course many decent schools in the US which cost lest because they are state-run.
I was referring to the VERY top, being the Ivy League, Stanford, Duke etc... And as Tiger and I pointed out, these costs really are astronomical. I'm not trying to say that schools throughout aren't amazing quality in the USA, as they are. I don't go to an Ivy League, but can still be impressed beyond beleif by people who do! Given how difficult it is to be accepted to these very top ones (~10% acceptance in some cases), it's hard not to be impressed when you see these names, and unfortunately there's no excaping the costs of around $50k in base. So I think we are on the same page though. Your link didn't work unfortunately.

Also recognize your point about the scholarships, which can (for the vast majority) be applied to most any country/institution. Although there are many (I'd hazard to say Bermudians are one of the most fortunate groups in terms of scholarship availability - literally hundreds up for the taking), we seem to agree that these can't reach everyone, thus another reason to celebrate the now low tuition in the UK.

[novote on 22.11.06 at 13:49]

Kate - Enjoy your tax free income in Bermuda, why don't you?!

[A Meringue on 22.11.06 at 14:07]

I don't see why anyone thinks the UK is giving us something for nothing. Bermuda has served Britain very well over the years. You don't have to pay tax directly to the UK Government to contribute. There are other methods of contributing. As has already been said above, this is something that should have been in place long ago.

[Lost in Flatts on 22.11.06 at 14:11]

Beenthere:
"Based on my experience, Masters theses from UK students often amount to not more than an undergraduate term paper from Canadian universities, and the PhD "dissertations" not more than a Canadian Masters thesis. Maybe we should look to Canada for territory status (like Turks & Caicos). The prestigious US universities are good, but not good return on investment imho. I steer students to Canada."

Erm, having studied in England and a 'prestigious' university in the states, I'm quite curious to read your comments. Especially given the high regard of employers to Oxbridge/Ivy League, and general lack of knowledge outside of Canada of the big Canadian uni's. Other than value for money, I'm not sure I see the benefit of choosing top Canadian uni's over top UK/US ones. Certainly to an employer outside of Canada (and probably inside) having Harvard on your CV will trump having Queens (all other things being equal). And now that Oxbridge could be had on the cheap, well I'd certainly like to have a PhD from Cambridge to compare with your masters thesis from Canada.

This sounds like a great opportunity for young Bermudians to get a truly first class education for an affordable price. What is more interesting is the possible social implications - the more Bermudians heading over to the UK for uni the more ties they'll form with it, I can just imagine this news sounds like nails down the old blackboard to Brown, Scott et al.

Does anyone have any idea how many Bermudians are studying in the UK at the moment each year? And how this compares with US/Canada/Other?

[sandgrownan on 22.11.06 at 14:28]

beenthere - a little disingenuous don't you think?

A masters thesis in the UK equates to an undergraduate term paper in Canada? hmmm.....I suspect discussing the merits of a North American education vs. those of a UK education should be left to the bar room.

[Ali on 22.11.06 at 15:30]

If we look at the big picture, what this means as a bonus for us is more than what it is as a negative for Britain. The increased number of students times the differential in the fees is a drop in the bucket, heck the UK government wastes 80 billion pounds a year! There is also a move to significantly increase fees for UK students so those people whose children are in or going to Uni next year will probably be the only ones to gain significantly. For them it is a great opportunity.
Sarah T. I understand your frustration, we have always treated expats as second class citizens, which has always disgusted me. The use of a work permits as a tool for employers and government ministers to take advantage of guest workers or to extract funds from big companies has not gone away.

[JJ on 22.11.06 at 16:29]

While I agree that this is a big bonus from the UK, how many students from public or private schools have acceptable academic qualifications to even apply to UK universities? The top, top students from the private schools may qualify based on their transcripts but the graduate program at Saltus, for instance, is not generally designed for the UK universities. That's one reason why most go to Canada or the US.I know there are some who do get accepted in the UK but it is a huge minority.

[Tiggy on 22.11.06 at 16:39]

The other side of the coin on the argument that Bermudians haven't paid into the UK system, is all expats pay Social Insurance, etc here in Bermuda and don't receive those benefits.

[J Starling on 22.11.06 at 17:24]

Sleepy - I would be for taxation if and when we have representation in a federal Parliament, and the right to elect our Head of State – No taxation without representation. I believe one reason for the UK granting us this tuition status is to bring them into line with their UN commitments which prohibit the creation of first class and second class citizenship tiers. I am Bermudian; I am also British (in the same way as one may be Scottish and also British). Up until now one could argue that I have been a second-class Briton, at least in the way of paying tuition. I repeat, I would concede to a Federal tax in order cover this cost, but only once we were in a Federation (federal representation) and not in an Empire. As I have said before I am for a democratic federal British republic first, Bermudian independence second. I do think you will find that there are many colonial subjects who would argue that this is but a small step towards social reconciliation in the form of a type of reparations for slavery and subjugation. Furthermore, I think you will find that the British military expenditure (especially in this imperialist (mis)adventure in Iraq/Afghanistan) might be better served being spent in the social welfare of the British peoples.

Smoking Gun – The reason I said it was quite racist in the first place was because the bulk of colonial Britons are non-Anglo-Celtic descent, that is, not white. While it may have been wholly unintentional, the objective fact is that the bulk of ‘Her Imperial Majesties’ non-white subjects have been disadvantaged vis-à-vis white subjects. As I have said, this may not have been intentional, but that has been the result all the same.

NoVote – I would agree with Guilden that the Independence issue is not solely about a disdain for the UK. For some it is. We all come to our political beliefs by different paths. I come to mine through a repugnance of a hereditary Head of State (constitutional notwithstanding); through the disgust of theocracies (which we are, with the Anglican/Christian Church being the official State religion); and through the lack of federal representation. I am also horrified at what Imperialism, formal or neo- entails. The quest for independence is not solely a quest for a new flag and anthem. That is a part of it, but only a superficial one. Independence to me goes much further and entails the development of self-reliance, social responsibility, wholesale socio-economic change, social/racial reconciliation, and a rejection of the very concept of leaders and led. These things do not necessarily come one after the other, but may be developed independently, simultaneously, in correlation or separate. But the realization of independence is the catharsis of all of these. The conception of Independence as a new flag and anthem is a wholly vulgar one. Also, the superficial review of ‘independent’ states fails to take a critical appreciation of neo-imperialist intrigues. It is ahistorical and even a colonial mentality to assume that we cannot make it on our own because others have not.

MrT – Change does not occur overnight, it is true. There are a lot of wounds still to heal, and the burden of the past often weighs like a nightmare on the shoulders of the living. Even under a Federal British Republic I think one can appreciate that mechanisms will have to put into place to prevent Bermuda being overrun with mainlanders – we simply cannot cope with it, and Bermudian born British subjects should have first rights. I think that is fair.

I do think this tuition change is positive, and I would like to take advantage of it. But I will not stop agitating for a federal British republic or independence for Bermuda just because of a few pieces of silver.

[SmokingGun on 22.11.06 at 20:36]

"This sounds like a great opportunity for young Bermudians to get a truly first class education for an affordable price." - Lost in Flatts.

To heck with the young ones, I'm thinking of getting a Phd from Cambridge myself! Besides, now that Limey's site's been buggered by the dimwits running Bermuda who can't handle any sort of well deserved criticism I've got plenty of time on my hands so I might as well use it to get educated.

[time will tell on 22.11.06 at 21:11]

You all are foolish to think that this will last. This is the UK's attempt to rid itself of their territories, how you may ask? Well watch what happens when they pull the rug from beneath all it's territories in 3 years by removing the benifits of EU citizenship and the education perk by saying "well after we thought about it" those brits aint fools, they know exactly what they are doing. They put us on this high horse and then kick us off where we are so pissed off that independence applications will come from each and every territory. Sounds far fetched? Let's wait and see.

[Student on 22.11.06 at 22:00]

Time will tell - ah, how everyone loves a good conspiracy theory... It's so refreshing to know that we now know what the UK Govt is going to do thanks to your post... Meanwhile, I'm going to further my education and go to the UK and benefit from this great deal.

[Young1 on 23.11.06 at 07:59]

Before everyone gets exited about Bermudians being able to gain masters and PhD’s on the cheap at UK universities I believe (and I could stand corrected) that this offer will only be for undergraduate degrees. The reason being that currently even UK residents have to pay full tuition fees for a master’s degree (unless they gain a bursary which is difficult due to high competition).

JJ Whilst the Universities may not look favourably on the AP's offered by Saltus they will certainly accept the IB offered by BHS and Warwick Academy. They will probably even look at IB students more favourably than those who take A levels. Obviously the biggest challenge is to provide a level of education in the public sector that will satisfy entry requirements, or at the very least provide the resources for students who want to gain a higher level of education.

I think there is a lot of doom mongering about the UK’s involvement with dependent territories. If they really wanted to get rid of us I am sure they could of done so by now. Further more judging the recent furore over top up fees I don’t believe the English government will be introducing more anytime soon.

[JJ on 23.11.06 at 14:49]

Young1, good point re IB qualification. What about public school graduates? Can any public school grad honestly expect to be accepted at a UK uni? Maybe after a couple of years at Bermy college.

[John Steele on 23.11.06 at 16:53]

If you think the question of Independence will be settled on purely rational grounds you're in for a rude surprise. Just as religion flies in the face of reason, so too does the desire for Independence.

[kristen on 23.11.06 at 19:02]

Oi! don't forget us bermudians currently residing (and paying taxes) in the UK!

(We matter!! *L*)

[Young1 on 24.11.06 at 08:59]

I am sure there are many Public school grads that have the intelligence to gain acceptance to a British University. Whether they have the level of education required is up to the schools and government to provide. This is the challenge I talked about in my original post. I don’t know much about Bermuda College but I hazard a guess that it could benefit the community by channelling more students towards the UK now this offer is available.

[silencedogood on 24.11.06 at 09:32]

While I agree that this is a big bonus from the UK, how many students from public or private schools have acceptable academic qualifications to even apply to UK universities?
Posted by JJ on 22.11.06 at 16:29

JJ,
I agree regarding the lacking qualifications of many students today. I was listening to Hott 107 last night and the DJ had a spelling contest. The girl who phoned in had to spell “inspiration”. After 3-4 painful attempts the DJ tried to help. Several attempts later and after cycling through all the incorrect vowels and spelling “tion” as “shun” she gave up giving her a new word.

This word “positive” was also spelled incorrectly 2-3 times and finally, with prodding by the DJ, was completed.

I was thinking maybe this girl was in Grade 3 or 4 and that these would be difficult words for her age. The girl then said she was in Grade 6 and wanted to be a teacher when she grew up! Mildly horrifying. Hott gave her a prize despite her woefully poor spelling.

That’s the problem in a nutshell. If kids learn that they get the prize no matter how poor the performance where’s the incentive to learn? I will say that the poor girl seemed to be very sweet and was very, very polite. Hopefully some teacher will take an interest and help her along, but I fear for her future and ours if this is representative. (and it may well be given the 52% graduation rate).

Parents need to get on these schools to teach the children better. Maybe meeting the requirements to attend a cheap UK university will be the necessary carrot. Hope so.

Time will tell, paranoid much?

Student,

Sorry about the link not working. That information is on the US News and World Report website which ranks universities and grad programs annually. If you Google it that will probably work better than if I re-pasted. You are right that we are nearly on the same page. I just was trying to point out that you don’t have to go ivy to get the top quality education that’s recognized here. Harvard will certainly get you in the door, but many of the state programs are world recognized. It doesn’t hurt that in Bermuda most execs are from the US so that they (and even some Bermudians) will know your school or may have gone there themselves. Good luck!

[youngin' on 24.11.06 at 13:48]

In regards to the 'public school students do not have the qualifications needed to get into UK (or US & CDA) universities' statements, why do public school students not take IGCSE/GCSE/AP/IB? Surely if they had some sort of recognized certificate stating they took these exams they would have more of a chance to get into infinetly more schools than they can right now? Why does governemnet not pursue these as options?

Just wondering, as I dont know the answer...

[JJ on 24.11.06 at 13:54]

Young1, I was not infering that students attending public schools were any less intelligent than those attending private schools, but merely that the piece of paper they have upon graduation is worth less in the eyes of university admissions, especially in the UK.

[Kate on 25.11.06 at 11:40]

I beleive that the IB is well thought of in the UK. I guess that the Government could apply to have the whatever is awarded here recognised but it would probably make sense for all children to have the opportunity to study a qualification (like the IB) which is recognised worldwide.

Does this also mean that Bermudian residents also get the home rate in other EC members in the same way that Brits do - that would be huge and would make the IB an even more sensible option. That would open up a huge wealth of study opportunities.

What worries me is now we have a situation where Brits who have paid taxes in the Uk and then gone abroad to work are now paying the overseas rate while people who have never contributed are paying the home, that just doesn't seem right. There is a growing resentment in the Uk and a SENSE that the white middle class are at a disadvantage. It SEEMS Britain will make sure every one is Ok except for the people who pay the majorty of the tax.

[sandgrownan on 29.11.06 at 10:52]

I see from today's Gazette that the British position on citizenship in an independent Bermuda remains unchanged.

“In the past, the usual practice was to withdraw British nationality from the majority of those acquiring citizenship of the new state on independence but to provide for its retention where the person concerned had a residual connection – for example through a parent or grandparent – with the UK or a place that continued to be what nowadays would be referred to as a British overseas territory.
“We would not expect to take a different approach in Bermuda’s case.”

[Tiger Bay on 04.12.06 at 10:48]

It is being reported elsewhere that in addition to the tuition discount, British Overseas Territories students will be able to borrow three thousand pounds tuition fee from the UK government to enroll in courses, and will not have to pay back the money until after graduation when their earnings reach a level equivalent to fifteen thousand pounds a year.