Scrap it

I’m disappointed with, and slightly puzzled by, the UBP’s stance on work permit term limits.

In Friday’s Bermuda Sun, Opposition Leader Wayne Furbert said that the policy was not in Bermuda’s best interest and created unnecessary uncertainty in the international business sector. He said that the situation should be handled on a case-by-case basis and not via a blanket policy. Despite this, however, he only committed the UBP to reviewing the policy, "with a view to striking the right balance between the needs of the international business sector and the needs and capabilities of our people".

There certainly needs to be a balance between the needs of international business and the needs of Bermudians. However, work permit term limits are bad for everyone (if you’re in any doubt, read Tom Vesey’s excellent summary). The UBP should be promising to scrap the policy, not review it.

Comments

[Casual Observor on 30.11.06 at 13:40]

Limey -

The last time I checked 1-1+1 still equaled 1. So how is this an inefficient way of curbing growth? I did not say REVERSING... Furthermore, instead of jumping the gun and bringing in somebody to do a job, companies will be forced to scrutinize positions and they can either attempt to fill it by a Bermudian or in some cases, outsource to overseas offices, which many companies do anyway - thus reducing the need to bring in more expats!

How is this an inefficient way of creating opportunities for Bermudians when it may result in oppenings at the lower end of the totem pole which can be filled by very capable Bermudians who are currently opting to reside overseas because of perceived lack of opportunity in some fields!?

And if you truly believe that the need to renew work permits is creating opportunities for Bermudians then I suppose you still believe in the Tooth Fairy and and Santa Clause as well!!!

[Casual Observor on 30.11.06 at 13:49]

SG -

And if you've ever frequented Mr. Chicken you would probably agree that the majority of the employees are young (read: with little to no responsibilities and poor work ethic). The turnover rate is probably no different from a McDonald's or Wendy's in the US. Is this problematic for the small business owners? Indeed. But please let's take a minute to think before we use Mr. Chicken as an indicator of Bermudian work ethic or ability.

[Casual Observor on 30.11.06 at 13:57]

Limey wrote: "Why would it be such a bad thing if people who have been here for over 10 years were allowed to become long-term residents?

It would not result in there being any more people here than there are today, it would simply change their status. So where would be the harm to Bermuda?"

Well Limey... when Joe Expat decides that he's worked really hard and wants to play more golf and enjoy his brand new boat, and decides to retire after 10 years on his nice fat paycheque, Company X has to bring in another employee to take his place... and then we end up with...

2 Expats for the Price of 1!

And then Fred Expat decides that Bermuda would be a nice place to retire...etc, etc, etc.

Not good math in the long-run, mate.

I have no problem with expats. I appreciate the need for them, believe me. I also though appreciate the need to ensure jobs, space, education, etc for the generations of born and bred Bermudians to come.

[SmokingGun on 30.11.06 at 14:50]

CO - I might not disagree. I only used Mr. Chicken because of the article in yesterday's online Sun. What really worries me though is that there was a similar article about Four Star Pizza. When we see these numbers then we have to admit we have a very serious problem facing us.

In many ways we live in la-la land and many people from around the world would be jealous as heck to have the opportunities we have. It's easy come easy go for much of our youth. Let's stop worrying about ex-pats getting a piece of the pie and instead stop spoiling our kids rotten. For it will be they themselves who are going to have their lunch eaten by those that are more ambitious and appreciative of how easy it is in Bermuda. if we are not competitive we will be replaced. And that goes for everyone.

[Uncle Elvis on 30.11.06 at 14:52]

How 'bout this?

Get rid of the term limits, but take away, or redefine, the long term residency thing?

Like, "You can work here for as long as you want, but you can never become Bermudian" or "...you can never become Bermudian unless certain criteria are met."

What criteria? That's to be figured out, but having Bermudian children could be one. Being a responsible citizen is another, adding to Bermuda with scholarships, charity sponsorships etc.

This idea has been floated and, basically, ignored, but I, personally, think it's pretty viable.

"...or in some cases, outsource to overseas offices..."

So you want LESS business done here?
This is viable, how? Why would we want to inconvenience companies that have, to be realistic, become our bread and butter in this way? How is making it more difficult for them to do business well going to solve anything?

And.. um... aren't WE an overseas office?

[JJ on 30.11.06 at 15:09]

"So instead, every 6 years companies have to waste time and resources finding, hiring, importing and training a new employee to replace their old expat".

It will happen every year to different companies. It starts in 2007 but will impact other expats who came in 2002 who will leave in 2008, then 2009 for those who came in 2003 etc etc.

[Silus on 30.11.06 at 15:45]

Silencedogood, unfortunately the rules in Cayman has changed and unless you are a 'key' employee yu are unable to stya beyond 7years and thus not entitled to apply for residency.
Those who have been here beyond 7 years already are allowed to apply but I know a few that have had to leave, (and they still haven't sold their cars or homes).
But this is not about Cayman, it's Bermuda, it is just interesting to see where the "Cayman's follow the Bermudans" example is going to lead us as we have even less qualified natives to take over.
Our blogs are full of the same arguments.
I can see Jersey and Isle of Man benefiting greatly.

[Ali on 30.11.06 at 16:04]

Casual Observor,
Many companies suffer the same employee problems as Mr. Chicken but are not as vocal about it. International companies create the opportunities, it's up to locals to take them. We have a serious problem here, if a person can't be bothered to start or keep a job at Mr. Chicken what hope is there to qualify further up the ladder? There are a lot of kids who arent good enough for the better jobs and think they are too good for the others, so we end up with guest workers at all levels. Our workers have been protected by immigration for far too long and the result is complete apathy, if they lived in Mexico or Haiti they would have to have a different attitude.

[H Reardon on 30.11.06 at 17:26]

Posted by Bermudian:

"Firstly you say that independence will cause a mass exodus of IB companies... now you're saying that the PLP have enacted this law because once we become independent, the expats will become citizens and help vote out the PLP. According to your logic, if we go independent there wont be anymore expats so the PLP wont have to worry about expats wanting to become citizens and stay in Bermuda!"

First of all, the two are not mutually exclusive.

Secondly, I did not say that the expats will vote out the PLP, but rather that independence would likely lead to more "Bermudians" with the right to vote. Further, the demographics of these new voters would tend to not be PLP supporters. I give the PLP the credit for seeing this potentially damaging (to their power) result of independence.

It is when governments act in this manner (to hold onto their power rather than to better their country) that the people suffer.

The 6/9 year rule was not enacted to give Bermudians better opportunities, but rather so that the PLP could continue to advance their agenda without detrimental consequences to their ability to get elected.

[Company Director on 30.11.06 at 18:35]

http://www.theroyalgazette.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20061130/NEWS/111300131

[JJ on 30.11.06 at 18:40]

I wish my expatriate 16 year old son could apply for a weekend job at Mr. Chicken (or anywhere else). He'd jump at the chance to make some pocket money.

[Bermudian on 30.11.06 at 19:20]

HR,

You're not making sense to me.

You say: "independence would likely lead to more "Bermudians" with the right to vote. Further, the demographics of these new voters would tend to not be PLP supporters"

I say: "you're saying that the PLP have enacted this law because once we become independent, the expats will become citizens and help vote out the PLP"

What are these "new" Bermudian non-PLP voters going to do?

My point is that the same fear-mongerers who say that the businesses are going to leave if we go independent are the same people who are supporting your position that if we go independent, then the expats will stay.

How can you be arguing from both sides?

[Bill Cook on 30.11.06 at 20:37]

The real concern is not so much all of the above but sustainable development.
This means limiting the growth to a controlable level.
At present we are like a dog trying to catch its own tail, ie spending more and more money and having to expand the economy to balance.
No one seems concerned at the need for fiscal responsibility and the need to cut back on waste and incompetence.
Without balance, the price we all will have to pay is overcrowding and all the other ills thus reducing the quality of our lives.
By the present system of constantly reducing experienced workers, we run the risk of diluting the standard of our population like a brain drain and in fact many well educated Bermudians have opted to live and work elsewhere and the numbers are substantial.

Some have claimed that international law would step in if there were longterm residents not being given rights etc, but where were they when our long term residents who were here for 30 and 40 years without rights except to reapply for to remain in their jobs ?
Status will be automatic for about 1400 who were not granted status as only those who were registered to vote were granted status when and if we go independent.
Common sense means unless we are going to be an Island of inbreds, we will need new blood and if we are smart we will get the most qualified and who will be an asset to the island not a liability.
Paranoi must be replaced with logic and common sense.
With competetion comes improved standards and a lack therof the opposite, so a balance is essential.

[Casual Observor on 30.11.06 at 20:57]

SG

I understand the article in the Sun simply served to provide a balanced view of the 'Bermudian workforce dilemma' in that it is not simply IB that relies on foreign workers. I just think that we need to be careful in painting pictures with a broad brush when if we look closer, there may be more to the story (ie, inadequate wages to attract more responsible and reliable staff).

Uncle Elvis -

I was not necessarily suggesting that LESS business should be done here... I was merely pointing out that many of the functions of these companies are ALREADY outsourced to offshore subsidiaries and third parties - accounting, operations, risk analysis, etc, with the core functions and meetings taking place onshore in Bermuda. My argument here is that the proposed work term limits will have very little effect at the key levels within these organizations as most of the executives will be exempt anyway.

[sandgrownan on 01.12.06 at 08:21]

CO - but that's the point. The example I state is a key executive who has had his "key employee status" denied. It's totally arbitary, and one wonders what criteria are being used to decide who stays and who should go?

[silencedogood on 01.12.06 at 09:19]

Silus,

Thanks for the update. I haven't been back there for a bit and hadn't realized the rules changed. Unless the attitude of those administering the rules has also changed I'd still rather try my luck there than here, but I digress.

Elvis,

If you really want to restrict long term residents simply make it a condition that they serve time in the regiment.

CO,

I'm not sure what is so difficult about HR's statement, but if I may, let me try to interpret. Assume 60,000 bermudians and 11,000 expats in bermuda today. Assume half of those expats would qualify for citizenship if bermuda went independent. Assume 30,000 registered voters among the bermudians.

Bermuda goes independent but has satisfied IB companies enough to where all of them agree to wait and see how things go for a few years. Being a new state it would only make sense that elections be called immediately due to the likely restructuring of the government away from the Westminster aka colonial master's form of government. (not calling elections or abolishing them would be unlikely to fly with the UK; delaying voting rights to new citizens would probably violate international law)

That means that there are 5500 new bermudians who will be voting. Turnout would probably be near to 100% among this group of new voters having just been endowed with rights where previously they had none.Assuming they don't vote for the PLP as their demographics suggest that is an 18% increase in support for the opposition making it likely that the PLP would be elected simply to lose power. It also makes it very likely that one of the "ex-expats" would be elected to a government office. Can you imagine the horror with which the xenophobic PLP leadership would have if this happened???

Of all the expats I interact with I note that while they bitterly disagree about global politics they tend to be of one mind with bermuda politics. It's very likely then that many good government laws and other politics from their home countries would be imported here.

The PLP are correct not to underestimate the power of a solid voting block. Under this scenario the PLP is likely to lose power if IB stays or even if barely hanging onto it their days of unlimited spending, travel, plantation questions, house N's, etc. will be over. Oppositon to freedom of information, etc. would also likely dwindle. Gays would likely be included under the HR act too! Can you imagine the PLP's horror at that???

Hopefully now you are starting to understand why the PLP wants to prevent the possibility of expat citizenship at all costs.

[H Reardon on 01.12.06 at 10:20]

Bermudian,

I am not saying that new status Bermudians will vote out the PLP, I am saying that the PLP are concerned about it, and have therefore enacted this law. My post has nothing to do with predicting the future, but rather explains the reasoning behind the legislation to begin with.

Clearly the PLP do not think that IB will leave after independence--otherwise they wouldn't be pushing it. Therefore, they believe that IB will stay, and that then they will have new voters to deal with because of independence. This legislation was enacted to tackle this problem for the PLP. Those new voters are likely not PLP supporters.

[SmokingGun on 01.12.06 at 11:01]

CO - I am not envious of anyone who is trying to run a small Mom & Pop shop in Bermuda. Competitive salaries are just the tip of the iceberg. I am a huge believer in spending my money on the little guy in the hopes they can continue their trade. I enjoy diversity in life and I fear we will lose that if we do not take a serious interest in supporting the small guys. IB does more than it's fair share in helping Bermudians get ahead, it's time we started doing the same.

[Wensleydale on 01.12.06 at 11:05]

A little bit off topic, sorry.

I find it hard to get to grip with this debate because I don’t understand what the 6 year rule is trying to achieve, largely because I don’t understand Bermudas immigration policy. So I’d like to ask a question………..

I’m asking this as an honest question. I really don’t know the answer and as this is one of the three subjects that it’s not polite to talk about in Bermuda; so an anonymous posting on a web page is probably the only way to get this question answered.

“Why does Bermuda have a none immigration policy?”

Just to let you know the way I’m thinking. Bermuda has a birth rate of 1.6%, lower than the 2.1% needed to maintain a population. So not allowing immigration will ultimately reduce the Bermudian population and create normal problems with a declining population. I.e. a higher aging population, shortage of cheap young labour etc.

At the same time the need for labour is increasing, Bermuda can’t keep up, the unemployment rate is 2.1%, about as low as it can be, so more and more expats are needed. The result is a greater portion of expats to Bermudians and this can’t be healthy for Bermuda?

So why not let the expats that have been here for 10 years apply of citizenship or long term resident?

The only reason I can thing are listed below………………

1, Social/racial tension caused by new citizens. (as most expats are not the same mix of race as there is on the island.) Mixed in with a bit of Xenophobia, “the only real Bermudian are those born on the island; I don’t like johnny-foreigner”

2, Concern about the number of Bermudians living abroad and if they all decided to return, the island couldn’t cope. So we need to reduce the number of Bermudians?

3, The type of expat likely to get citizenship are the wealth educated, high salary. Who are more likely to use Bermudas economic success, so causing a greater uneven distribution of wealth?

I know that the policy was changed about 30 years ago to stop pretty much all immigration and that there must be a good and valid reason. Any answers?

[Casual Observor on 01.12.06 at 14:42]

Silencedogood -

Ummmm... Actually, I never made any comments about the PLP wanting to prevent ex-pat voters. I would have to refer you to 'Bermudian', although I cannot say that I disagree with his comments.

And how can you assume that turnout among this group of would-be voters would be near to 100%!? Voter turnout in the States and/or UK barely scrapes like 20%, so what makes you think that these individuals would suddenly exercise this right in a new homeland, when a majority do not do it in their countries of origin!? Your estimate requires a huge leap of faith.

Wensleydale -

Limey raised this issue earlier in the thread, to which I put my 2 cents in above. Bermuda is a small country with limited resources. The day we have a none-immigration policy would be the day that we sign a death warrant for the generations of Bermudians to come.

[Bermudian on 01.12.06 at 15:32]

HReardon,

Hasn't the PLP's "legal advice" suggested that, regardless of whether Bermuda goes independent or not, if anyone is here for 10 years or more, they should be granted citizenship?

I dont think it has anything to do with independence at all...where is that part of the puzzle coming from? The bottom line is Bermuda is not big enough to be taking on more and more people. It doesn't matter if they are black, white, purple, orange, green, yellow or red... it doesn't matter who they are going to vote for either...it's about keeping the population under control and giving the best opportunities to Bermudians instead of foreigners and people who have come to Bermuda because of their economic interests. Simple as that.

[Casual Observor on 01.12.06 at 22:10]

Again, I could not agree with Bermudian more.

I cannot comprehend how the citizenship/voting is being pulled into the equation as if the PLP's first order of business was to hatch a diabolical scheme to stem the expatriates who will rise up and overthrow the PLP government.

At the height of H. Reardon's argument, what about the other mainly non-IB ex pats - the Filipinos, Indians, Jamaicans, etc who could potentially gain citizenship under H Reardon's argument? According to HR, voter turnout would likely be close to 100%. Who would this demographic vote for? PLP? UBP? Does this too throw a spanner in the works for the PLP? Or would these groups be potential supporters?

This legislation is not about ensuring a PLP dynasty, it's about preserving Bermuda for Bermudians.

[Palm Trees by the Sea on 02.12.06 at 11:25]

What am I missing here? Reading the Gazette today Burgess is suggesting that this term limit legislation is there to stop people gaining an expectation to be given permanent residence.

I dont understand where this expectation comes from in the first place. Hence I dont understand why this policy needs to be in place.

To my understanding, the last loophole was closed up with the pre-1989 thing. I fail to see how else a regular expat can gain citizenship.

[SmokingGun on 02.12.06 at 13:05]

"This legislation is not about ensuring a PLP dynasty, it's about preserving Bermuda for Bermudians."

Casual Observer - I do not not think anyone could disagree with you on this and from the start I "hope" that was the intent. However the way it has been put together also plays handily into keeping the PLP in power. Killing two birds so to speak.

One thing that may well prove to be a major problem is that whilst Bermuda(ians) is spending all it's time looking at the ex-pats in the high end of the job market, we ultimately could get clobbered at the low end. And that should be by far the greater concern.

P Brown just stated that the developers of the Burj have signed on with a local developer (looking forward to hearing who on that one) and that they will be building in Bermuda. The staff that they will require to maintain the style of service they are known for back home might have little to do with being Bermudian. We could very well end up with a glut of foreign workers that can very easily fit the six year plan but at the same time put untold pressures on our lower income citizens.

As we all know an ex-pat at the top has all sorts of options. A Bermudian at the bottom has very few.

[silencedogood on 02.12.06 at 14:14]

CO,

You're right it was Bermudian. My bad, but since you agreed, no harm no foul! :)

Still, I think you are missing the larger point. The PLP doesn't want any "ex-expats" voting, period. It doesn't matter if it's 100% or 50% or 20%. They would threaten their grip on power and change the electoral landscape permanently.

Bermudian,

I think it's understandable to want to preserve bermudian culture by limiting and regulating the flow of immigration, but even if every expat here today was made a bermudian it would have 0% net impact on how many people are on the island because those people are already here!

[Casual Observor on 02.12.06 at 19:08]

Silence,

Again, you are making an assumption that these expat-turned-longterm-resident-would-be voters are UBP-supporters... What about the other guest wortkers (non-IB workers) who might not identify with the UBP. Are these ex-pats potential PLP supporters? If so, why wouldn't the PLP seek to be selective in the granting of long-term citizenship, seeking to keep the potential PLP supporters and ship out the others.

My point is that I do not think that this is about votes or securing a PLP leadership. This legislation is more about preserving Bermuda and its resources for those of us who have our roots firmly planted here. Spin can be put on any legislation or initiatives undertaken by the government. I conceed that preserving the current voting landscape is potentially an indirect result of the legislation. Perhaps this is why the Opposition and so many people on this site are so opposed to what in actual fact is a huge step taken toward preserving our resources and way of life.

[Wensleydale on 02.12.06 at 19:53]

Casual observer

My mistake. When I said none immigration I was referring to Citizenship. I don’t think its unfair to say Bermuda has a none-citizenship policy. As limey is no doubt painfully aware.
The fact remains without letting some expats become Bermuda the number of Bermudan in Bermuda will decrease and the portion of expact to Bermudan will increase. Your comment on this matter ……..

“when Joe Expat decides that he's worked really hard and wants to play more golf and enjoy his brand new boat, and decides to retire after 10 years on his nice fat paycheque, Company X has to bring in another employee to take his place... and then we end up with

2 Expats for the Price of 1! “

another way to look at it could be joe expat 2 children get part-time jobs working at Mr Chicken and 1 expat has to go home, they grow up to become accountants again 2 less expats on the island, his wife jo expat gets a job, another expat has to leave, then she starts a company employing 3 Bermudan.

As for the most idea joe expat retires after 10 years, I can think of one country that has an immigration policy that would allow citizenship of someone of retirement age. In Canada, Australia and NZ it all done using a point system, that makes it very difficult for anyone less than 30 to get citizenship.

I don’t consider Bermuda over populated, if anything I think it under populated. I think the current economic success of Bermuda has given it the opportunity to expand and in doing so enhance the physical, urban, rural and cultural landscape.

[Bermudian on 02.12.06 at 20:58]

Silencedogood

actually you're wrong again...i'm not the one who brought up the whole issue about the PLP wanting to prevent expats from voting...it was H Reardon.

In any event, how is this a PLP-thing? Please enlighten me if you will, but were expats able to vote before the PLP came into power and now since 1998 they are unable to? Or were they not able to vote all along, including the pre-1998 era when surprisingly the party who they would actually probably support did not allow them to vote!

So is it really a PLP-thing? Or is it a Bermudian thing? I'm inclined to agree with the latter. If you were a citizen of a tiny country where a large influx of people could migrate into your country and significantly change the composition of the electorate, would you allow that? Please honestly answer that question because some of you are just being plain old ridiculous.

As for allowing those who are already here to become Bermudian, you're honestly not making any groundbreaking discovery by stating the obvious that there would be 0% change. That's not the point. The point is that if we made every expat a Bermudian, they would probably stay here...forever (and it doesnt matter who they will be voting for). With the term limits in place, we dont expect the expats who are here to be staying here...forever. That's not we want and that's what they should understand before they sign up to come here. Honestly, most of us appreciate them being here but if they can't understand the reasoning behind the law, then perhaps they aren't as smart as we thought they were.

[Copper on 02.12.06 at 23:03]

Scanning through the multiple posts I may missed it.

If my wife and I have to leave after the six years (which we don't), assume our companies wanted to replace us with someone who has similar skills and experience. People of our skill and experience are typically about our age 35ish. A lot of 35ish people are actually married (partner, significant other, whatever) so there is a great chance that it will take four people to replace two. So that means two kids replaced with four? It doesn’t seem to be a very well thought out idea.

And yes I know many people/companies that have had it and packed up and left or are planning to do so.

How does this effect Bermuda. Well let’s say that the office of 25 people had 18 expats and 7 Bermudians. Heck, relocating to somewhere else may even be home to some of the expats so easy move. Move the Bermudians. No. Some of them aren’t even qualified. Dump them. So now there are 7 Bermudians out of work. 18 less people who no longer need their homes or offices cleaned, cars, groceries, dental work, apartments, boats, rounds of golf, memberships to the museums, and all the other things people spend money on here. At the moment everything is so over heated 25 hear 30 there may not really be noticed but wait, momentum can build and if one (JUST ONE) of the big boys leave it could have a very real impact on the economy and your property values.

Of course, as stated previously by a member of one the business lobbies, the government isn’t so stupid as to kill the goose that lays the golden egg.

[Adjustah on 03.12.06 at 04:50]

"...the government isn’t so stupid as to kill the goose that lays the golden egg..."

Hopefully.

[silencedogood on 03.12.06 at 20:59]

Again, you are making an assumption that these expat-turned-longterm-resident-would-be voters are UBP-supporters...

Well, to be more accurate I'm assuming they are anti-PLP not necessarily pro-UBP. They are just the only alternative.

What about the other guest wortkers (non-IB workers) who might not identify with the UBP. Are these ex-pats potential PLP supporters?

Please see above. My opinion is that PLP voters amongst "ex-expats" would be few and far between based on my interactions with people. I could go on and explain why, but that’s not the point of the discussion. Let’s just say I think the xenophobia against all foreigners (even people of color) wouldn’t appeal to most.

My point is that I do not think that this is about votes or securing a PLP leadership. This legislation is more about preserving Bermuda and its resources for those of us who have our roots firmly planted here.

Fair enough. I don’t see the two as mutually exclusive in the minds of party leaders. As for a huge step, whether that’s forwards or backwards is a matter of opinion and I doubt we’ll change each other’s minds here.

Bermudian,

actually you're wrong again...i'm not the one who brought up the whole issue about the PLP wanting to prevent expats from voting...it was H Reardon.

Sigh…I know you are interested in playing gotcha, but I never said you brought it up. What I was referring to was your inability to understand Reardon’s point which I then tried to break down for you.

If you were a citizen of a tiny country where a large influx of people could migrate into your country and significantly change the composition of the electorate, would you allow that? Please honestly answer that question because some of you are just being plain old ridiculous.

First, why do you assume I’m not? Second, what your question boils down to is whether you think legal immigration is a good thing. So yes, absolutely. Bermuda has a declining birth rate and severe skill shortages.

A more open immigration policy could help supply skills for everyone’s benefit and would make the community a better place to be since expats would have an incentive to do more than work and save. If you think some accountant here for two years is going to mentor a child and teach them to read you’re sorely mistaken.

You’re never going to get rid of the need for foreigners in the economy so why not give them incentives to be the most productive, valuable community members possible? The only way to do that is to keep them and make them good Bermudians. It worked for the Roman Empire, it worked for the United States, it works in Canada and lots of other places around the world and it can work here.

I’m not talking open floodgates, but a regulated system only makes sense. I don’t assume that it would have a negative cultural effect--in fact I think it'd be the opposite. I’m sure you disagree and I’m not inclined to argue over a matter of opinion, but you asked, I answered.

As for allowing those who are already here to become Bermudian, you're honestly not making any groundbreaking discovery by stating the obvious that there would be 0% change.

You seemed to think it was before---“it's about keeping the population under control … Posted by Bermudian on 01.12.06 at 15:32 “ –if there is 0% net change there is nothing to worry about with population control.

The point is that if we made every expat a Bermudian, they would probably stay here...forever (and it doesn’t matter who they will be voting for).

Who’s making the groundbreaking discoveries again? Look, if you are talking about post-independence citizenship I would be surprised if every expat would want to, or could afford to stay. Hell not every Bermudian stays. That doesn't mean they wouldn't vote while they were here or work for until retirement and then leave though.

If you’re talking about immigrants, then sure they would—that’s the point. But I don’t think that there would be that many candidates and those could be whittled down further by immigration requirements, i.e. those who are law abiding and have skills which can benefit all of Bermuda (think doctors and nurses or others in short supply) I’d rather have one stay who loves Bermuda than constantly rotate in people only interested in making a quick buck and getting the hell out. But I digress…

[Bermudian on 04.12.06 at 00:02]

silencedogood,

Sigh...unfortunately mr/ms good, i'm not commenting on this site to play games of "gotcha". maybe that's the reason why u r here, but dont extend your reasons to moi.

I completely understand Reardon's point. And I respect Reardon's POV. Perhaps it is difficult for you to understand that people have different views (probably even more valid than yours) which is why you try to resort to condescending remarks. It's cool though, I can do that too if you want.

Nevertheless, I never said that you weren't a citizen of a small country. It was a hypothetical question...u do know what they are right? I'm all for legal immigration as well..finally something we agree on! However, the idea of allowing 11,000 expats onto an island of 65,000 people is asinine in my opinion.

A more open immigration policy? Perhaps, but that's something we will have to work on...as with any country, Bermuda's immigration system is not perfect.

"If you think some accountant here for two years is going to mentor a child and teach them to read you’re sorely mistaken."

Well that's a gross generalization...but if it's true, then perhaps if they dont want to contribute to the community then maybe they should stay at home. Hopefully we can find a replacement, otherwise, we'll have to allow them to stay here as one of those 'key employees', u know, the situation where if there is a shortage of suitable, qualified persons in a specific profession then they are allowed to stay longer.

"if there is 0% net change there is nothing to worry about with population control"

Um...yea, it's still nothing new to me or anyone else here (for the short term anyway)... You are under the assumption that these people will be here working forever in Bermuda. Eventually they will retire... then we will have to bring in ANOTHER person to replace them...the cycle continues and soon we have an exponentially expanding population. Therefore, it's not 0% in the long run...but i'm sure that's what you want people to believe.

"Look, if you are talking about post-independence citizenship I would be surprised if every expat would want to, or could afford to stay."

Like I said before, independence has nothing to do with this issue... i'm sure you want to cloud the issue by throwing it in. but honestly, it has nothing to do with it. keep trying though! And you'll be surprised if they would want to stay, then why do they want to come here and become citizens in the first place??? Anyway, these back and forth "quoting debates" take too much time and often go off topic...so I'd rather not continue :-)

[Lost in Flatts on 04.12.06 at 07:05]

Seriously, weird smoke screens about voting preferences of expats when we go independent aside, it still seems this is still just a stupid piece of legislation. If the only goal is to stop expats believing they can stay forever, then why the 6 year thing? Seems a bit arbitrary. And surely it says on every single work permit that long term residency t'aint gonna happen. So done and done, get on with it. With no long term residency, its not like expats aren't going to plan on leaving at some point, it'll just be when it suits them professionally and personally, instead of this random rule.

Secondly, I can't believe the anti-immigration rhetoric being pumped out by a few of the posters. I'm not sure when they stopped teaching history, but the vast majority of Bermudians are only one or two generations in. We're a rock in the ocean, we're built on immigration. To suggest that the solution to our worries is to close up shop and let Bermudians do all the work, well if that's not indication that we should be getting worried about the gene pool I'm not sure what is. Please, this perserve Bermuda for Bermudians crap is just a sound byte. We're too physically too small to produce enough competent, qualified workers and we're mentally too small to produce ideas and intellectual capital necessary to go forward. Not mentioning the importance of new and varied view points in bettering society. I hate all this Bermudians have some divine right to a fully functional paradise on a platter. If you wanna know why employers prefer expats, maybe you should start looking there.

[silencedogood on 04.12.06 at 08:56]

Bermudian,

I honestly can't even have a conversation with you because you keep contradicting yourself. For example:

HR,

You're not making sense to me.

You say: "independence would likely lead to more "Bermudians" with the right to vote. Further, the demographics of these new voters would tend to not be PLP supporters"

I say: "you're saying that the PLP have enacted this law because once we become independent, the expats will become citizens and help vote out the PLP"

What are these "new" Bermudian non-PLP voters going to do?
...
How can you be arguing from both sides?

Posted by Bermudian on 30.11.06 at 19:20

Then you turn around and claim:

I completely understand Reardon's point.

and

Like I said before, independence has nothing to do with this issue...

Huh? Maybe those two jibe in your world but you seemed more than a bit lost. And I'm not sure how I threw independence in there when you brought it up. Now you want to turn it into a fight but I'm not playing along. Sorry, better things to do with my time.

P.S. If you are going to try to argue I can't respect another's point of view, it might be more effective to do so when I didn't just post to C.O. agreeing to disagree where our views differ.

[Casual Observor on 04.12.06 at 09:09]

LIF -

I'm not going to argue small points, but most Bermudians are more than 1st or 2nd generation... Try more like 4th or 5th... at least. I don't think that anybody could sit here and disagree that Bermuda was built on immigration - English settlers, Portuguese, Caribbean... we are all the descendents of immigrants.

Nobody is suggesting that we close up shop and let the Bermudians do all the work. Such a suggestion would be assinine. It is no secret that guest workers help the wheels run smoothly.

My comment about Bermuda for Bermudians is not a xenophobic, nationalist statement. We are not a US or Canada, or some other country with vast resources, land space, etc. and cannot compare ourselves. The reality is that we ARE a small country with resources that are disappearing daily. Did you miss the story in Saturday's RG!? Guess what!? 60% of the residential land in Bermuda is owned by non-Bermudians, some of whome have very little affinity for the island beyond the financial gains in presents.

Guess what else!? This is my home... and when there are THOUSANDS of Bermudians who cannot even own a piece of the rock that their forefathers helped cultivate, I have a SERIOUS PROBLEM with the notion that we should open the island up to whomever has the cashflow to buy into a little piece of my paradise.

I am not in favour of a NON-IMMIGRATION policy. You say that what about the bloodline!? Hundreds of Bermudians every year meet/marry non-Bermudians. Some return home, some reside away. At least though by being married to a Bermudian they are able in some way to assimilate into Bermudian culture, etc. But I digress.

I am a Bermudian. My forefather were English and Kittitian... but I am not legally acknowledged as either. I have no alternate place to go and buy land, or reside, unlike all of the people who you would be looking to give status to. Sell your piece of the rock if you want. I refuse to give mine or that of my children away. This is home and I fully support the legislation and what it is trying to achieve.

[b,w&p?? on 04.12.06 at 09:25]

Casual Observer,
FYI, as Bermudian who is a member of the British Overseas Territory you are legally acknowledged as British and can live, work, buy land and reside throughout all of the EU mamber states....until that priveldege is taken away by independence.

[Lost in Flatts on 04.12.06 at 09:42]

CO,

My point is that you'll be able to keep your land as long as you work hard and contribute to Bermuda. And given the articulate, well thought-out nature of your posts, I'm sure you're doing very well and will continue to have a very good life in Bermuda. What annoys me is that some Bermudians think that just because they were born on the rock they have some right to a certain lifestyle. I can guarantee you that when their ancestors immigrated in they worked tooth and nail for what they achieved, and I'd just like to see this mentality carried forward. And if an expat comes to Bermuda, adds tremendous value in both work and hte community, I say that they're the type of personI want in society, over a Bermudian who just happened to be born there, doesn't work hard and complains alot. And yes, I'm stereotyping, but it's not miles from the truth.

And anyway, this still doesn't explain why a 6 year cap, rather than some kind of flexible one, makes any sense whatsoever.

[Bill Cook on 04.12.06 at 11:47]

It is difficult to have any credibility on this debate without having the pertinent information if one is to be guided by statistical reality rather than opinions based on hearsay alone.

Bermuda has always had a very high turnover of people foreign nationals etc.

The majority of hospitality workers from chefs to management rotate from one hotel to another and like any gifted workers they are in big demand world wide as are many others.

Regardless there will always be a big turnover.

It is certain a large number of retirees including status Bermudians and born Bermudians leave Bermuda to live in other countries due to cost of living here being too high.

Many young Bermudians do not opt to return to Bermuda preferring to live and work elsewhere.

In order to create a balance and avoid overcrowding one needs to have all this information to first understand as close as possible how many people we can cope with.

I am not sure of the figure of 60% land belonging to non Bermudians but how much of this is hotel property and residential ?
Land often returns to Bermudian hands when foreign owners leave or pass on.

Frankly no land should be sold but leased in my opinion.

We got all the land back from the US GB and Canada now.

The ongoing problem in Bermuda is the lack of information regarding numbers ie the real numbers of how many people are here at any given time including children and relatives of foreign workers.

With a falling birthrate the present immigration rules are too draconian I feel and once we determine what our capacity is we should create a balance based on who leaves and allowing an input to balance the numbers as the arbitrary methodology at present is impractical.

[Casual Observor on 04.12.06 at 15:31]

BC -
I'm not sure what the actual breakdown was, but I think it is all Residential, none-hotel.

LIF-
Thanks in no small part to hard-working parents who believed in quality education, a solid work-ethic and a job in IB, I am doing alright. My primary concern is ensuring that my child, and children's children have some reward for their hard work. How can you sell education and hard-work to people who cannot see any reward in sight!?

B,W & P
I understand that. However, my point is that culturally I do not identify with the UK or any EU member countries. I have had the opportunity to reside in both the UK and the US having attended university and having familial ties in both. However, Bermuda is where I call home and as such, there IS some sense of entitlement.

[Wensleydale on 04.12.06 at 16:26]

Bill, good posting.

Of the 85 posting on this subject I don’t think one thought the 6 year rule was a good idea. This is perhaps why the argument became side tracked onto conspiracy theories as to why the government had introduced this policy.

The theory that it is to prevent expat get citizenship if Bermuda went independent is intriguing and plausible. Its clear the government doesn’t want any more expat to get a Bermuda passport; full-stop; so the additional argument that it would change the voting balance seems over analyzing.

I agree the immigration rules are too draconian and damaging to your country and that a debate is need on immigration and citizenship but unfortunately it is impossible to have this debate without information regarding numbers ie the real numbers of how many people are here at any given time including children and relatives of foreign worker.

This said I think that the Bermudian population must be under threat as it is attacked from two side, firstly the low birth rate and secondly the number of young (normally professional) Bermudians leaving the island, never to return.

Bermuda needs to determine its population capacity, but I would urge that when thinking about it you consider that a high population density does not always indicate over-population and that some growth is never a bad thing and is sometimes necessary.

[Denis Pitcher on 04.12.06 at 18:24]

I've read numerous times where people equate the existance of a disclaimer against citizenship on work permits to guaranteeing that Expats won't be able to gain citizenship. Thus there is no need for the 6 year term limit rule. This is not correct.

I have heard, yet not fully confirmed, that the UN has a policy that any country that applies to join must afford citizenship to every individual who had lived in the country for 7 or 10 years.

The disclaimer on work permits would not hold up for this rule as a means to withdraw that right to citizenship because the disclaimer only protects against those expats who try to fight for the right to citizenship themselves. It would not protect against a UN requirement such as that which is proposed above.

This is what I have heard attributed to the introduction of the 6 year workpermit rule. So that they can start weeding out most of the long term expats now before going independent.

Beyond this, I have begun to realize that the law restricting sale of Bermudian homes to non-Bermudians may well be another ploy for independence. It's purpose possibly being to discourage those wealthy individuals who already have long term residency via owning a home from accepting the offered citizenship.

The reason being, that the pool of Bermudians with the wealth to afford some of the homes owned by non-Bermudians (like Goldeneye) is so small, that any individual who accepted Bermudian citizenship via a UN like directive would effectively be locked into not being able to sell their home in the future should they ever care to relocate off island.

Thus, why accept citizenship if it locks you into assets you likely never may be able to sell?

[SmokingGun on 04.12.06 at 20:30]

Very good point Denis. Besides after "Black-Eye Friday" I doubt too many white expats, also affectionately known as "The Racist Dogs", will be making much of an investment in our island going forward.

Hmmm... maybe there is a method to the madness. Maybe we can expect real-estate prices to crash sooner rather than later.

[schooldaze on 05.12.06 at 08:56]

Casual Observor

Guess what!? 60% of the residential land in Bermuda is owned by non-Bermudians

The story actually pegged the number at 40% and also didn\\\'t clarify whether or not the land in question was purely residential or a combination of residential and commercial.

Furthermore this government considers all of the property owned by the Bank of Bermuda to be Bermudian owned so until such time as they apply similar criteria to other corporate land holders or amend their position on the bank property (not) being Bermudian owned I\\\'m going to consider it as pure political posturing and continue to doubt the veracity of his remark until such time as the minister provides a more accurate breakdown of how this figure was determined.

[sandgrownan on 05.12.06 at 09:11]

Wasn't the law regarding the sale of property to non-Bermudians overruled in court, at least in the case of "Goldeneye"?

[Bill Cook on 05.12.06 at 10:01]

Some of the comments on term limits on the talk shows are astounding and not just by the usual cadre of wingnuts but by otherwise fairly bright people which is scary.

What we need is much more information which will increase our knowledge and create a better understanding of any given problem instead of the emotional action and reactions.

[SmokingGun on 05.12.06 at 13:18]

Oh yes - one other thing he mentioned. Something about the Royal Gazette questioning and it's representation of the past. Funny thing, I've been online to see what The Sun might have to say about all the hulla-balloo but I guess the web-master must be on vacation. Usually they have scoop after scoop especially when the Spin Doctor has something to say. Not a peep. How very odd.

[SmokingGun on 14.12.06 at 18:53]

From the RG Online:

"Mr. Burgess said key workers could be found “at all levels and in all areas of a business”.
He said as well as senior management roles such as chief executives and chief financial officers, key staff could include technical, professional, clerical and service staff.
He said: “In cases where the employer is able to justify that because of a genuine and compelling reason there is a need for a longer period, the work permit term will be extended to nine years."

So Mr. Burgess - Instead of making all the companies waste precious resources, labour and time going through loops to get what you say, because you know that they will, why not just scrap it and simply enforce the rules already in place? It's a heck of a lot cheaper and less time consuming to get a waiver than it is to advertise, interview and hire in someone new.

This policy is not just ridiculously inneficient it is a total waste of taxpayers time and money and over-burdens not only Businesses but our civil servants and also makes our elected officials look absolutely dumb.