No relaxation of Sunday trading rules for Christmas

Sunday trading rules will not be waived in the run-up to Christmas because of a conflict with the time that many people attend church.

That was the message sent by Finance Minister Paula Cox to the Chamber of Commerce this week, following a request to allow all retailers to open between 11am and 5pm on the three Sundays before Christmas. Ms. Cox said that any retailer wishing to open on a Sunday should apply to the Register of Companies for a trading licence in the usual way.

Presumably Ms. Cox feels that if the rules were relaxed, too many people would have to miss church in order to staff the stores. She probably thinks that she is acting for the benefit of most Bermudians. But is she? Some church-going store workers might appreciate the opportunity to earn a bit of overtime at what can be an expensive time of year. The rest are probably outnumbered by those church-goers who don’t work in a store and would actually quite like to be able to shop on a Sunday at Christmastime (after church, of course). And that’s before you add in those who don’t go to church on a Sunday anyway, such as Seventh Day Adventists.

Shop workers who do not want to work on a Sunday, for religious or any other reasons, should not be compelled to do so. However if a retailer wants to open on a Sunday and is able to staff their store with willing volunteers, why should the Government prevent them from doing so?

Comments

[ace on 14.12.06 at 18:36]

Good grief. More catering to the "thumpers".

[SmokingGun on 14.12.06 at 18:42]

Yes but Limey - who's going to fill the plate if they're all off spending their money in the shops? Don't forget December is money making time for our churches.

And besides Government can probably get away with a few more filing fees by having stores have to make special requests.

[sandgrownan on 14.12.06 at 18:58]

This is one of those "quaint" little Bermuda customs that makes no sense whatsover. Apart from the very valid points raised by Limey, I would venture that shops should be free to open all year round on a Sunday if they so choose, and while we're at it, I want to able to buy a bottle of wine on a Sunday.

Without dragging up the whole "why does the church get so much reverence" argument again here's a practical example of why the policy is daft. I work all day, Monday to Friday, I sometimes work but more often spend all day Saturday in some sporting pursuit. I need to buy something, a book, cd, pair of shorts, whatever, it doesn't matter. The stores are closed SUnday, so I go online and order off the web.

Here's another idea, especially useful at this time of the year but also valid all year round. Open stores at 10.30 or 11 in the morning, but let them stay open until 7 pm. I would shop a little after work.

Minister Cox is being a little short sighted here and she needs to empower the retail industry to make their own choices.

[Casual Observor on 14.12.06 at 21:30]

Limey -

I totally agree. As you rightly pointed out, what about those who a) do not attend church, or b) choose to worship on another day. Just another example of the sway that the churches hold in Bermuda. If churches have to rely on trade regulations to ensure church pews are full on the Sunday then maybe the respective ministers should take a look at spicing up the ol sermon rather than penalize the rest of us.

I suppose we can file this one right next to the 'No-Importation-Of-Pornographic-Material' law...

[Full Fullish on 15.12.06 at 00:05]

Because Jeee-Sus doesn't want competition!

I agree with you Phil, the choice is up to the individual. Who in the hell is Paula Cox to impose her religious beliefs on me or anyone else for that matter?

[loki on 15.12.06 at 07:05]

This makes about as much sense as that other "quaint" custom we have: not being able to buy alcohol at a liquor store or supermarket on a Sunday. Oh, you can go to a bar, get loaded and pass out face-down in a gutter, singing "Maybe It's Because I'm a Londoner" as you do so, but, God forbid, you should offend the God Squad by being able to buy a bottle of Merlot on a Sunday. Ridiculous....

[J Galt on 15.12.06 at 09:08]

My my how incredible open minded we have all become, “the choice is up to the individual”, “and “Shops should be free…” Where were you when they banned smoking? Or is that a choice that shouldn’t be up to the individual? Or Establishments shouldn’t be free to make that choice. You are all hypocrites, most likely you don’t smoke so the ban didn’t bother you, and most likely you don’t go to church so this one does.

[H Reardon on 15.12.06 at 09:21]

Just one more way this government makes decisions for you, rather than letting you run your business they way you want. Whether it is allowing smokers in your establishment, letting you open when you want, or who you can employ, government is just smarter than you, and knows how to run your business better.

[Hello my name is Somers, and I am Bermudian on 15.12.06 at 09:24]

Um um, if a retailer wants to be open then they apply for a permit. What's the problem with that??

Now buying alchohol on a Sunday is a whole other kettle of fish...

[Uncle Elvis on 15.12.06 at 11:19]

Yet another example of why non-Church-Goers need to come together as a lobby.
The Government, hell, the Opposition, too, respects "the Church" because they are a pressure group, threatening to not vote for them if they don't get their way.
This is as it should be.
If we, those who disagree with things like Sunday Closing, the liquor ban on Sundays etc., want to take away the power, we have to play the game like they are.
Organize. Come together as a group with a common purpose. Pressure the Government.

Businesses who disagree with it should look to the past and see what worked.
From what I've heard, Bermuda used to shut down on Thursday afternoons, just to relax a little and wind down... or something.
I'm not sure the reasoning, but I like the idea! *grin*
This went on until Cooper's, I believe, just started opening on Thursday afternoon.
So, yeah. Go apply for those permits, businesses. If you feel strongly about it, apply for them every week, even if it's at a slight loss, until something changes.
History has proved that this should work.

[ch57 on 15.12.06 at 12:33]

Which southern US state is Bermuda trying to emulate?

[Pompous G Windbag III jnr. on 15.12.06 at 12:52]

Wherever Deliverance was set - Georgia??

[JJ on 15.12.06 at 12:52]

Limey says
".......if a retailer wants to open on a Sunday and is able to staff their store with willing volunteers, why should the Government prevent them from doing so".
Paula Cox says
"any retailer wishing to open on a Sunday should apply to the Register of Companies for a trading licence in the usual way".

What am I missing here? Is it that you feel shops should be able to open without applying for the license? Is applying for the license a big deal?
People i work with are telling me the shops will be open on Sundays up to Xmas.

[Uncle Elvis on 15.12.06 at 12:54]

Galt and Reardon,

If you recall, I was completely with you on both of these.

Happy (Non-Denominational, Non-Religious) Holidays... agh.. scratch that. Holiday comes from "Holy Day", so.. um...

Season's Greetings.

[Pompous G Windbag III jnr. on 15.12.06 at 12:55]

Hello Galty

A blessing on you in this yuletide season.

Just a hint for your rather mixed metaphors but one involves obligations and one involves rights.

Bless you again.

P

[Chris Broadhurst on 15.12.06 at 12:59]

What Paula did is known as 'selective hypocracy'.

[KHD on 15.12.06 at 13:08]

The Sunday shopping has been, and is currently being debated in many jurisdictions and it is naive to think that it is a "this Government" problem.

Having been in Halifax during their sunday shopping debates, I have heard many well founded arguments for and aqainst Sunday shopping.

After hearing such dialogue I have to admit there seems to be alot more to it then simply the church lobby.

The fact that businesses may apply for a license seems fair as they are only looking for three sundays, as opposed to an outright change in policy.

[SmokingGun on 15.12.06 at 13:14]

"Where were you when they banned smoking?" J. Galt

Coughing up a lung so much that I couldn't speak out. Now that they've banned smoking in church too I guess the smokers are really in a pickle. It's a clean livin' conspiracy I tell you! ;-)

[Casual Observor on 15.12.06 at 13:33]

J Galt -

We could get into a lengthy dicussion about the difference between a public smoking ban and Sunday retail, however I think it boils down to this: As a non-smoker, I shouldn't have to be subjected to somebody elses second hand smoke any moreso than I should have to be subjected to somebody else's religious beliefs. Choosing whether or not one wants to smoke and choosing a religious affiliation are two very personal issues that neither of us with opposing views should be subjected to. IMO if you make the decision to smoke, then know that it comes at the price of having to do it in your own home or similar setting. If you want to go to church on Sunday, then it comes at the price of having to better utilize alternate shopping time.

Were there not studies to show the dangers of second-hand smoke, then I would support your point. The fact that there are studies, in my opinion renders it a moot point.

[Casual Observor on 15.12.06 at 13:35]

H Reardon -

Yup, blame the existence of centuries old laws on the PLP... That government'll getcha all the time!

[Uncle Elvis on 15.12.06 at 14:09]

Um.. I think that was the point.

They are both personal choices. Why is there legislation forcing these choices on people?

Forcing businesses to close on Sundays, against their will, so that some, who have made a personal choice, can go to church.

Forcing businesses to ban smoking, against their will, so that some, who have made a personal choice, can have their way.

As for Mr. Reardon's talk of government, I learned (the hard way) that he is against governmental control period, regardless of who it is. He references THIS Government because these are two examples of the Government forcing someone against their will and they happened under the PLPs watch.

I think that's what it is, correct me if I'm wrong, Mr. R.

[Company Director on 15.12.06 at 14:29]

The full text....

Dear Retailers,

Please note that the Chamber of Commerce, on behalf of the Retail Sales Division, appealed to the Minister of Finance to relax the Public Holiday Trading Policy for the last 3 Sundays before Christmas. The request asked that she consider allowing ALL retailers (with or without a permit) to open between 11 - 5 p.m. on December 10th, 17th & 24th.

The Minister felt that this request was somewhat problematic as it would conflict with the time that many people attend church. She has therefore asked that any retailers wishing to open on either of these Sundays to apply to the Register of Companies, for a trading licence in the usual way.

Applications can be downloaded from the following link:
https://www.roc.gov.bm/roc/rocweb.nsf/pages/holiday+licence+application

The policy is outlined as follows:

Any shop that has less than 2,500 square feet in retail floor space can be open for business at anytime on all public holidays except for Christmas Day and Good Friday provided they have a Holiday Trading License.

Any shop that has more than 2,500 square feet in retail floor space can be open between the hours of 1:00 p.m. and 6:00 p.m. on all public holidays except for Christmas Day and Good Friday provided they have a Holiday Trading License.

If you have more than one shop you must apply for a Holiday Trading License for each of them.

Seasons Greetings,
Fiona Lines
Divisional Coordinator

[Silus on 15.12.06 at 16:37]

True KHD, the shops in Cayman open on a sunday are jewelry shops for the cruiseships if they are in.
All other shops are closed.
We also cannot have live music somewhere that is serving alcohol on a sunday (unless it's a church), so all bars shut at 12 on saturday night.
Should make New Year fun this year

[abc on 15.12.06 at 17:01]

I am sorry, the Hon Ms Paula Cox, Minister of Finance did not create this law. She is merely saying that she doesn't think it should be relaxed. How then is the PLP government to be blamed for the existence of the law?
Many of you are taking Ms Cox to task for imposing her beliefs etc (Full Fullish), but this law has been in existence for much longer than the PLP has been the Government. Sometimes I think some of you cannot be as ignorant as you seem.

[Linda on 15.12.06 at 17:10]

We gripe too much!! They want to open on Sunday, apply for a permit and voila! You're open on Sunday. I don't know if it is advancing age, or I'm getting soft, or whatever, but the whole western world seems to be moving further and further away from Church and the teachings of the Bible, and it is not making for a better society. There are so many damned "rights" now that it seems nothing is wrong anymore. No, I'm not a Bible thumper, I smoke, and I love a couple of glasses of wine, I'm just fed up with lawlessness, porn and foul language on TV, and folks jumping on the Churches everytime one of their vices is threatened, and if 6 days out of a week is not enough to buy your hooch, consider AA.

[Phil on 15.12.06 at 17:21]

Somers/JJ

Applying for a permit is a hassle. And it has to be, because the aim is to discourage stores from opening. If getting a permit was easy, what purpose would it serve?

KHD

I'm aware that this is an issue elsewhere in the world too, but on this blog I'm only interested in Bermuda.

There may be other arguments against allowing Sunday trading, but according to the Chamber of Commerce, the only reason Ms. Cox offered was the religious one.

[Phil on 15.12.06 at 17:37]

abc

How then is the PLP government to be blamed for the existence of the law?... Many of you are taking Ms Cox to task for imposing her beliefs etc (Full Fullish), but this law has been in existence for much longer than the PLP has been the Government.

Yes, it has. But who now has the power to change it? Who had the power to grant the Chamber's request this Christmas?

Linda

Attempting to link the desire to shop on a Sunday to lawlessness, porn, foul language, or alcoholism seems like a bit of a stretch to me. I think every generation has a romanticised view of how much better things were when they were young.

[SmokingGun on 15.12.06 at 17:42]

Just as I figured: $84.00 Fee for a temporay license. Gotta pay for those thirty new guvmt travellers coming on line next month not to mention the over-time wages having to process the forms. I wonder if it's $84 per each Sunday. That'll really raise the revenues. Kinda Grinchy if you ask me.

[ch57 on 15.12.06 at 17:46]

"I don't know if it is advancing age, or I'm getting soft, or whatever, but the whole western world seems to be moving further and further away from Church and the teachings of the Bible,"

Thank "god" for that.

" There are so many damned "rights" now that it seems nothing is wrong anymore."

Such as equal right for homosexuals? Oh, so many....

"I'm just fed up with lawlessness, porn and foul language on TV"

But, of course, not the violence.
Who is forcing you to watch this anyway?

[JJ on 15.12.06 at 18:09]

Limey, it can't that much of a hassle. It's not like getting a work permit for chrissakes! If you are a retial business owner and want to open on the 3 sundays before Xmas you should have been applying 3 months ago for the permission. Sorry I don't buy that one. Poor planning.

[loki on 15.12.06 at 18:36]

Hello, Galt, oh myopic one: where was I when they banned smoking? Right alongside you, arguing on this very site that Government has no place in banning smoking in private establishments. Care to revise your opinion that we're "all' a bunch of hypocrites. And, no, I don't smoke, never have, and still believe that Government has no place in banning smoking in private establishments. You know, you'd get much father along in spreading the Libertarian word if you didn't needlessly generalize and insult your audience.

As you were.......

[Student on 15.12.06 at 18:41]

abc - come on now... so the law was not passed by paula cox: you're absolutely correct. But by this logic, laws would never be revisited, no? The point is that she and the government have the power to change it. If you agree with the stance that stores should not be open on Sunday, it is one thing. But to give credence to the rationale that it is ok for the PLP to keep stores closed because that has been the precedent; this simply doesn't fly.

[Dan Burke on 15.12.06 at 19:12]

Keeping the Lord's day holy is all about the hebrew theocracy collecting their tithe to run the government on a weekly basis and enforcing the 6 day work week. 4,000 years later, maybe we should recognize the change in governments and the benefits of automatic withholding and mandatory overtime pay past 40 hours. Although moving the sabbath to the day of the sun from the day of freya may be considered progress.

[Martin on 15.12.06 at 19:27]

"The Minister felt that this request was somewhat problematic as it would conflict with the time that many people attend church".

I may have missed the point in other posts...but don't people have a choice? If you want to go to church, then presumably you don't want to go shopping.

And vice versa.

[Bermudian on 15.12.06 at 21:02]

Limey,

Applying for a permit is a hassle. And it has to be, because the aim is to discourage stores from opening. If getting a permit was easy, what purpose would it serve?

Forgive me if it has already been stated, but in what way is it a hassle?

[Full Fullish on 16.12.06 at 08:16]

ABC -
Don't get me wrong, I'm against this "law" in it's entirety, from it's inception under the UBP. I don't agree with the making of this law under the UBP, nor to I agree with the continuance of this law under the PLP. SOrry if you misunderstood my rant there, but I didn't intend it as a digg at the PLP, more so a dig at how Paula Cox decided to continue with it and her reason to do so. Again if your christian and want to be closed or not work on a Sunday that should be your right to do so, however it should be an open market for everyone else. I don't impose my beliefs on everyone else and I expect the same treatment in return.

[Monique on 16.12.06 at 09:45]

I live in the Bible bet here in the USA. We can shop up a storm on Sundays but can't buy liquor, wine or beer at the store. Most retail outlets do not open until 11:00 am or later on Sundays. During the 'holiday' season they open earlier. I manage to go to Church every Sunday and still sneak in a quick visit to the Mall without any lightning bolts hitting me.

The bureaucracy of applying for a special license is ridiculous and another example of government creating more work where it isn't necessary.

[SANdgrownan on 16.12.06 at 11:34]

Galt - there really isn't an analogy between this argument and one about smoking. You shouldn't really make a connection between the two.

[Uncle Elvis on 16.12.06 at 13:06]

Sandy, actually, there is, if you look at it from a "Government curtailing the rights of people to do as they please" point of view.

If a business wants to allow people to smoke while they drink, they can't.
If a business wants to allow people to shop on a Sunday, they can't.

Also, in both cases, you can apply for an exemption or permit, but this can always be turned down.

Here's a thought. How about the Muslim Bakery (I think it's called)? How about any company owned and/or run by Muslims, Jews, Atheists or, heck, even Christians that don't go to church? How does this refusal of the request pertain to them?
It doesn't.
This is all about Christians and "The Church" and how they have become powerful enough (and rightly so) to sway our leaders... on BOTH sides.

Regardless of who put this law into place, Paula Cox made the decision to refuse a request by the Chamber of Commerce. Regardless of how easy or difficult it is to get a permit, regardless of how much it costs, the Chamber, which presumably represents the retailers in Hamilton and Bermuda, made a request that this be relaxed for three days and this request was refused on the grounds that Christians may not be able go to church. Not that they couldn't, but just the off-chance that this would be disrupted.
Come on. That's ridiculous.

[SmokingGun on 16.12.06 at 14:07]

I've got a suggestion that might appease everyone:

Ladies apparel in pew one.
Childrens clothes in pew two.
Bathroom essentials in the rectory.
Kithchen gadgets in the aisle......

[Ethiops on 16.12.06 at 15:27]

I’m with Uncle Elvis when he says a non-church goers lobby needs to be formed.
If politicians could physically see whose votes they are losing maybe the needed political will show its face.

Linda - Suppose I just absolutely enjoy a glass of Château Margaux on Sunday are you suggesting I need A.A.?

[Carol Shuman on 16.12.06 at 15:55]

Actually, if Galt sees the analogy, there is one for him or her. (I have no clue who anyone is here! Better that way, perhaps.)

Regarding stores, though. When we moved here in 1990, no stores were open on Sunday. Guess what? I had enough good sense to get what I needed on Monday through Saturday. With the exception of overseas travel and the internet, Bermuda has a captured market.

If the stores wish to open, then others will have to open to keep up or lose their share of the market. With a market that is captured, do we really want to add hours to workers' schedules (for retailers who want to jump into the market to grab a bigger share and then find that everyone else has, too, so they've failed to increase sales, but have increased costs).

If I choose to shop in Bermuda (vs. traveling or on the internet), it would be because of good product and friendly service. It's for this reason I always go to Complete Office. It's also for this reason that I don't go to a lot of other places and head to the internet--whether it's Tuesday at 7 p.m. or on Sunday.

Therefore, that's why smoking is a logical topic--people are objecting to being told what to do, which is the issue here. So file an application and see what happens. Then everyone else will have to file applications or lose the share. Seems like normal retail logic! There is an option.

[SmokingGun on 16.12.06 at 16:13]

I'm willing to give Paula the benefit of doubt in that her concern is with the employees. If a store wants to open on these three special Sundays leading up to christmas, when people are stressed out and may well need a little more time to get their shopping done, then the store must be prepared to accept that some employees will not show up for work due to church needs. And not penalize anyone for not being able to work.

If that's the case then she should simply clarify it and then, in my opinion, go ahead and relax the rules for the holiday period accross the board. Bermuda retailers are getting hammered enough as it is through-out the year so why not help them out at the most important time of the year.

Oh and for those who think it's a simple matter of obtaining a permit, you're probably forgetting the fact that you are also paying the people to organise and obtain the permits on top of the $84 fee. Just another governmental cost and burden retailers do not need.

Now I'm off to find me a bottle of that Chateau Margeaux to have with tomorrow's dinner. Cheers everyone.

[sandgrownan on 16.12.06 at 18:03]

Elvis - i agree with most of what you say, but the anti-smoking thing isn't about "curtailing rights." Government has a duty (after all it's what we pay them to do) to protect as many citizens from harm in as many ways as it can. I don't care if people go to church on a sunday or choose to shop, and similarly I really don't care if they smoke or not. However, if they smoke it infringes on ME if I'm near by, I have to breathe it in, it affects my health in a negative way. Restricting smoking in places where most people don't smoke anyway is one of the few mature things this government has done.

I can see how this will get twisted but there you go....

[Linda on 16.12.06 at 18:04]

Ehiops...read it again. I never said anything about drinking wine on a Sunday. I have two glasses of Merlot every Sunday evening. All I pointed out is that you have ample time to buy your Chateau Margaux prior to Sunday.

[Martin on 16.12.06 at 19:53]

Guess I am not being totally fair here, but it was nonetheless strange how The Prem said in the RG today..."we promote competition".

Except against the Church maybe.

Sheesh - this man must sure want their votes.

[J Starling on 16.12.06 at 21:32]

If Limey will allow a shameless plug, I have been trying to get an organisation, Society for a Secular Bermuda, off the ground for some time now. A lot of people talk about the need for a secular watchdog here, but I have been having a hard time to actually get anyone willing to commit the necessary time to really function. Anyone interested, my email is legit. Just in case some people get the wrong idea, the idea is to be apolitical in the political party sense, but political in the political watchdog sense. I look forward to working with whoever is willing to work with me.

[Kate on 17.12.06 at 07:09]

J. Starling

What a great idea. Those who have no religion (the Brights!) are not treated with equal gravity as those who do have a religion. In the UK this is the biggest faith group (or should that be lack of faith group).

I think that not being able to shop on a Sunday is a bit outdated. When Sunday trading was introduced in the Uk there was an outcry that people wouldn't be able to go to church and that people would be forced to work on Sundays but it turned out that employers were overwhelmed with volunteers.

[Longtime Lurker on 17.12.06 at 12:57]

Galt,

Calling us "hypocrites" implies that there is some inconsistency within our moral outlook; that is incorrect. I don't think that anyone who was for the smoking ban said "I think it is right for the government to regulate private business in EVERY instance that is possible." Most of our arguments were more along the lines of "there are some cases in which society would benefit from government intervention in private business (such as public smoking bans or safety regulations); the government should take action in these cases, and otherwise leave businesses to the markets." To us, a large part of democratic politics is a debate over whether or not society as a whole would benefit from government intervention in any particular situation (probably not), and if so, what regulation there should be.

To say that we are hypocrites for agreeing with regulation in one area and against it in another, entirely unrelated area, would imply that someone has to be either for government regulation in every instance or against it in every instance; you and Reardon are the only posters I've seen on this site with that kind of absolutism, and we utterly rejected it in our previous arguments. That is part of your principles, not ours.

You disagreed with our view on the smoking ban, that's fine. That's a seperate argument that we've had many times before. But don't call us hypocrites based on inconsistencies within an absolutist moral viewpoint that we don't have.

[SmokingGun on 17.12.06 at 18:55]

Carol - although I do agree that in a closed market businesses should act responsibly and be concerned that they do not unfairly squash competition through monopolies and oligopolies, as we too often find in Bermuda, the fact that any company is allowed to request/receive a permit shoots a hole in your theory.

J Starling: If so many people do not go to church, by default, don't you already have a party? Maybe it's time to just print the T-Shirts.